The year 1993 in the ATA

Nothing to add
I just saw there were 99 replies and I haven’t had a 100 straight in a while

 

Dawg. You are a disgusting person. A confessed cheater who claims to be one of the top shots in pa. I do not believe you are or ever was an honest person. I do not believe you are a republican, you talk and try to bad mouth people that can not protect them selves, you sound like a RINO.
By the way; The ata sent out the letter about certifying all machines not me. You either didn't get one, or no one read it to you. You have no creditability as you are a liar and a cheater. Did you pump up you averages on the machines you set? WHEN YOU LOOK IN A MIRROR AND SHAVE DO YOU SEE A PERSON OF NO HONOR LOOKING BACK AT YOU. do you recognize him? Roger C.

 

I must admit, something very similar happened to me back in 1975. I've only been shooting trap for 3 months. It was the MD State shoot. Lucky wanted to classify me AA. We kinda got into an argument when I said I was A class average not AA. At that time there was no AAA. If I remember correctly Lucky was class A at that time
I went on to win class A with a 199x200.

Being a little cocky at that time. I went back to where Lucky was posting scores and told him ''Now you can move me to AA class''. Which did move my average to AA.

 

Yeah, I do remember breaking a pathetic score once at the old South End Gun Club in Reading PA many moons ago. It seems we had an ATA shoot at our home club on a Saturday where I broke the 100. The next day I went to South End and broke an 82/100 on their 3-hole targets. One of the local hot shots-Bill Hunsberger-started calling me Homer. I atoned for my sin several years later by breaking a 98/100 in the Handicap at the same place on the same targets. I thought I was king s--t until a 100 straight came in on the last squad. That place paid for much of my shooting at one time. Good shooters adapt-average shooters stay average!

 

Well, at least he wanted to classify you AA before you shot-not like in Tom's case when he tried to move him up after he shot. I still can't believe Lucky would attempt creative scorekeeping-such an honest man!

 

Ollie What are you babbling about? The one thing that most amazed me about the eastern shooters when I first moved to Maryland was how snippy and always talking about some other shooter behind their backs, but not their face. I'm not saying all but many of the so called elite shooters did this. The amount of resentment I witnessed for Frank and Kay was laughable by shooters who were just mad at them because they couldn't beat them.

The second year that I lived in Maryland Lucky came to me and yelled at me for not going to the state meeting. I wanted to know why and he told me that some on the board wanted to make a rule that you had to shoot at least half your targets in Maryland to be on the state team. He told me that some shooters were complaining that I didn't shoot enough in Maryland.

This was my answer to Lucky I didn't think it was fair for me to go to every weekly ATA shoot, there was only one ATA shoot each week in Maryland then and I didn't want to be constantly beating on those shooters and if they had a lick of sense they'd have been happy I wasn't there. But I also told him I wouldn't be feeling that way any longer and for about 4 years I made it a point to shoot every shoot they had and I won a bunch of really nice trophies and got to enjoy beating some real douche bags.

I chalk up most of this BS I hear from you to that same Eastern Mentality.

 

Well, I don't know much about an Eastern mentality but having shot both with and against Little I always ADMIRED his talent and personality. Well, we all know Kay-Kay is Kay but the old fart can still shoot. The shooters I hung around with all felt the same way. Actually, some of us were good at rooting out cheaters and I'm sure you knew a few or were you too busy shooting to care? I'm glad you still hold Lucky in such high regard while others might not. BTW, MD always gave out great trophies and I have one of their clocks hanging on my wall. It must feel great to call other shooters douche bags while ignoring others with questionable reputations.

 

Dawg, Why didn't they root you out. Setting fluff targets is cheating, just not one at a time. You talk in circles and it all comes back to you being a cheater.
You must be a closet democrat , you are quick to accuse others of doing what you confessed too. Roger C.

 

And this is why it's the best shotgun discipline. It's IN or it's OUT,,,,, no Maybes


And just for the record, this thread hasn't been about the number of All Americans now compared to 1993 since post #3

Just sayin...

 

Well, Jake on field 3 at Pikeville always added to the challenge. Too bad the price of birds skyrocketed.

 

Sure, setting wider angles on fields facing South into tree trunks wasn't challenging enough according to some. You must have spent way too much time in AZ shooting real fluff sky targets. Heck, I could break that crap if it was set in the 4-hole-way too easy for a good shooter.

 

You just keep evading and spouting bull crap. If you were so good why did you have to cheat and set fluff targets. blame every one else for your lack of ability.
Why don't you tell us of the major wins of your career. So we can check them for accuracy. Roger C.

 

An eerie silence fell upon this thread.

 

Dawg, Has failed to convince that all trap shooters are cheaters. many clubs fell for the B.S. that fluff targets bring in shooters. Maybe that's why we lost nearly 40000 shooters. For every stupid action there is a reaction. The ATA by not correcting the cheaters is as much to blame for the demise of our sport.
We should thank them for their service. Roger C.

 

It isn’t just that dawgs post took swipes at all the PA clubs. He tried to insinuate the western pa clubs were cheaters. And not answering Butterly’s question, what cheating club did he set targets for?

He can’t name his club? Just points fingers like a child that someone else did it. 4th grade stuff.

 

paBob I think you are a little slow to the party here. This stuff has been going on for a few years on here, I think A handle change may be called for.

Some possibles, Not Pa Bob Anymore, I didn't know Pa was a nest of cheaters Bob, from Western Pa PaBob, Almost from Ohio Bob, Almost from West Virginia Bob, It's not my Clubs fault Bob, or my favorite Just Call Me Bob.

 

As winter sets in I think the rest of them will be pretty quiet too

 

Ok, did not get it right away...momentary ''Brain freeze''. Something Joe Biden can not get after eating ice cream.

 

Sorry I missed you guys-just had surgery on Tuesday-big toe fusion. I love walkers. Anyway, why don't you super smart people tell all of us the names of the clubs in PA that still shoot 3-hole targets. I named those that have been shooting 2-holers for decades and if you never shot at any of the above mentioned clubs why should you care? Look, if you stink on 2-holers you'll just stink more on 3-holers. Like they say "cream rises to the top"!

 

Recap I think is needed here. This guy ‘dawg implied he set targets for his club that were intentionally easy. Also implied his club wanted that. I don’t see where anyone has questioned this guys honesty about setting cheating targets.

For years he implied all PA clubs were doing this. And this PAbob sticks his head out and says not so fast. Not in my area ‘western PA.

If the ‘dawg guy does have an ounce of integrity left, he should let us know what cheating club he set targets for.

And mods….let PAbob change his name to West PA bob. Don’t want him mixed up with dawgs east cheats. Jmho

 

Let me reiterate for a simpleton who can't understand English. I only set targets for one of the clubs mentioned. The others mentioned also set 2-hole targets for decades including the PSSA (FYI that's where they hold the PA State Shoot). The last club shooting a 3-hole target in Eastern PA was very likely the South End Club in Reading PA. Why should you care which clubs shot any of your preferred targets if you never shot any of 'em? If MD shot anything but a 2-hole target they'd likely cross over each others traps as they were so close together. That's where Brad shot plenty of targets and never complained. So, stick your integrity up where the sun doesn't shine!

 

Ollie I helped set the targets at the Maryland State, the Westy Hogans, and the Eastern Zone at Thurmont several years in the late 80's and early 90's. I was usually in charge of 6 traps. We set the targets in the center hole for height and length on each trap and then as we moved to the next field we always set them in the 3 hole.

I never thought of myself as being from Maryland anyhow but I won't let you accuse those Maryland shooters and board members of cheating just because you let the Pa clubs get away with it. I shot at every club in Maryland but a couple that shot registered targets during the years I lived there and they all shot 3 hole targets as far as I could tell.

You have no problem putting words in my mouth, you don't know if I complained or not. You are right though I never complained about targets either too hard or to easy. I don't like whiners and those that whine about targets all the time I really don't like to be around.

Those no talent K 80 owners that tried to buy their way to winning is why the ATA has short narrow targets today. When they found out it didn't matter if the had a $20,000 gun or not they still weren't good enough shots to average 90 from 27 yards their answer was to shorten and narrow the targets until they could. Oh and also to never ever take a reduction because they earned the right to be on 27 yards even if they didn't have the ability to stay there. Thus the occupy the 27 yard line old farts society that is the 2021 ATA.

I could care less that you are having a pissing contest with buttery or Pa Bob but bring me into the fight at your own hazard. Most of those Maryland shooters from those days are dead and gone but none of them I knew were cheaters. You are the one throwing the Cheater name around pretty freely with absolutely no proof.

Getting back to the facts I posted at the beginning of this thread. ATA 1993 really good shape, ATA today "Let's Go Brandon"

 

Dawg, You have no honor thus no one believes any thing you say. You have tried to indict every honest trap shooter into your cheating circle. it will not work.
We all care what clubs ruined our sport. You and the other cheaters should be ashamed of your selves, with what you did to our sport. You won't because you have no shame or honor. You are a RINO, and you are not an honest competitor. Roger C.

 

No truer words were ever spoken

 

According to the ATA rule book, whose responsibility is it to ensure the targets are legal ?

 

Thanks Brad for reassuring me my 200 straight in Singles at MD around 1993 was on 3-hole targets. That was the day Frank Little and Kay Ohye went 550 targets straight in the shootoff that Frank won. There were a bunch of 200's that day on those oh so difficult targets and I exited early. Maybe you should have set my targets in the 4-hole? Brad, those occupy the fence shooters are dying off fast-stop living in the past! I certainly agree with your analysis of old people shooting guns that are way more than they can handle. But, most of 'em aren't wearing a patch on their cheek for every event either as those guns kick far less than the stuff we shot in ancient times. Heh, most of 'em can afford a little luxury in their old age so at least they stink with an expensive gun.

 

I got an idea. Please do all of us a favor and call the ATA for your records of all those clubs that you claim threw illegal targets. Then tell them since you suddenly discovered they were illegal you want all of 'em stricken from your records. That will show us just how much integrity you claim to have. After you prove to all of us that you're nominated for sainthood and the ATA was so cooperative they eagerly accommodated your wishes I'll divulge the name of the club I actively managed. In the meantime-dry up!

 

Butterly.. Me think you finally touched a nerve for the old cheating dawg. He should stop whining about to old people shooting guns they can not handle. They are the same people that looked the other way so he could cheat on target setting. He stated most clubs in PA. set targets like he did. So just tell Butterly what clubs he should request having removed from his records come on man man up show us you have a little compassion left in you. Roger C.

 

Dobyns, The first line of defense is the gun club managers. But when the manager is the perp. the next line of defense is the ATA, after they are notified of the infraction. In the matter of the rules on target setting there was NO one guarding the rules. Roger C.

 

Heh Brad, please tell all of us just how many of those shooters from 1993 are still standing, still shooting, are capable of breaking winning scores or even on the near side of 70 yo We're just wooly mammoths fantasizing about what shooting was over 30 years ago and all is meaningless anymore. It ain't coming back the way it was as the ATA did everything possible to screw it up so just move on as all we have left are memories. Heck, I used to hunt pheasants out my back door and today's kids hunt 'em from their room on a computer.

 

Dawg, You and people like you ruined our sport. You have indicted all of the club managers on the east coast. You do not have to be able to break winning scores to enjoy our sport, if winning is so important that you must resort to cheating . you should find a different sport. You do not deserve to compete with men of honor.
The longer you talk. the less respect have. Roger C.

 

Roger, the way you shoot it might be best to find a club manager willing to set targets in straightaway mode only. Try finding someone in AZ feeling sorry for you but I doubt even that would help. Please tell us who forced all those other club managers in the country to switch to 2-hole targets! It must have been old has-beens like you.

 

Ollie seems to think that the folks on this post are fantasizing. While this may be true could it be that on the other hand Ollie is hallucinating? I believe Ollie is a legend in his own mind. I'm wondering why 7 1/2 or 8's has not been part of Ollie's approach to this subject?

Dave Berlet

 

Dawg, You are correct about being a has been. The difference is never cheated to get where I have been. I'm darn proud of record on tough targets.
Why don't you P.M. me your ata # so I can look up your shooting record. You are not ashamed of it are you. It sounds like most of your targets were shot on fluff targets. I'm not looking for any one to feel sorry for me. I feel sorry for all of you cheaters how can you shave and have to look at an old cheater
Oleolliedawg,= no honor.no shame, self confessed cheater,accusor of shooters, starting to sound like a wantabee shooter. Roger C.

 

First of all, what makes you think AZ targets are tough? Come to PA if you wanna see tough targets. Our backgrounds do not include a few cactus plants or unlimited visibility with a few distant mountains. PA-the burial ground of wannabes.

 

You do not know a tough target . you have set fluff targets since 1992 or sooner. a rule book target was to hard for you to hit. So you flaunted the rules. Talking to you is like talking to WPT's toaster. Roger C.
What about your shooting records, you going to let me see them?

 

I wonder what members of the "occupy 27" crowd see when they look in the mirror? Surely they know people are laughing at them?

 

Why worry about "occupy 27" shooters. Most are approaching 90 yo, don't play a dime in options and are quite happy breaking 60/100 while shooting with their fellow senior citizens. Most are shooting the latest and greatest high rib engraved super trap Unsingles weighing over 10 lbs. Looking good while you miss works for them.

 

Because that's what I wonder, that's why.

 

U guys can bitch targets all you like but all the free reductions is what ended the money for me. In the day you needed to almost needed to sue for a yard off. Worst move ever imo.

 

Heck, I got three free reductions in one year. I lasted two shoots and got back most of that free yardage. No, decreasing the number of shooters needed to gain yardage (the Mississippi Rule) killed the feeder small clubs. Who's stupid enough to accept an increase for only a small number of handicap entries? Add that and moving the Grand to IL killed the ATA!

 

oleolliedawg:
Moving the Grand to IL killed the ATA! That is the smartest thing you have said in this entire thread. No Offense.

Ron Burdick

 

Dawg, You know as well as most shooters, you and the ATA not enforcing the rules of target flight are what started the sport of trap on a down hill slide, Moving to Sparta was the end for a lot of shooters. It all boils down to no rules enforcement and some very bad moves made by the ATA board of directors.
.( Who's stupid enough to accept an increase for only a small number of handicap entries?) Quote from the dawg, The words of a confessed cheater.
Roger C.

 

Roger, put on your thinking cap just once-surprise me! I suppose you haven't noticed the tremendous decrease in clubs holding registered shoots over the last 30 years. The biggest reason is it's no longer profitable nor possible to compete with the large venues who've sucked up all available dates. That includes Mini-grands, zone and state shoots among others. So, what does the ATA do-they keep lowering the number of Handicap entries needed to acquire yardage instead of raising it. That, and moving the Grand to IL meant moving away from the shooter base. So, catering to the larger venues killed off the smaller feeder clubs that supplied new shooters to the ATA-simple as that. No need to attend the smaller clubs to get in target requirements anymore as there's plenty of opportunities to get 'em in at the major shoots. No more feeder clubs and catering to the motor home crowd means shoots will continue to get smaller and smaller. It has nothing to do with target width.

 

Dawg, A lot of shooter did not run with the shooting for average, and AA points. They were money shooters. When the cheating started they started to thin out, and the younger crowd never had a chance to shoot for real money. They did not ever get the thrill of what real shooting is all about.
You are kicking a dead horse, I told the ATA they were killing the nursery for new shooters when they started the satilite grands. they ignored me.
I noticed the clubs not only their lack of throwing registered targets. I noticed how many were closing the doors. I was in the trap and skeet machine business.
Roger C.

 

Roger, the money shooters disappeared many moons ago-Ya know why-they died. The younger crowd found casinos-BTW Casino revenues skyrocketed last year. Only fools spend exorbitant money for over-priced targets and options. The law of diminishing returns prevails-fewer shooters, higher expenses ='s higher prices for targets. Then, most organizations raised the price of options trying to keep payoffs high but that only meant fewer players. Let's use live bird shoots as an example. The price of birds got to the point where shooter numbers plummeted. In the 90's the shoots were well attended-now the sport is on life support and if playing a game for money was attractive there was nothing better than flyers. If tough targets and big payoffs are the answer to save ATA Trap compare flyers to trap as an example. Simply stated-higher prices mean fewer shooters and nothing to do with target width.

 

Blah blah blah dawg…you implied you were setting cheaters targets at your club. And then you pointed to all the other clubs that were doing it in your area. And I have no reason to doubt you.

We are still waiting to hear about that club you helped manage. That cheating club you set targets for. Evidently for a long time right?

Please give us that cheating club name. Don’t point at the others please. Just your cheating club. The name please.

 

Gladly. All you have to do is call the ATA and have any targets you shot at those named clubs removed from your record.

 

Dawg. The money crowd left when the targets got easier and you had to have a top three score to cash out. You and the other cheaters put money shooting on a down hill slide and now you try to justify you cheating ways by trying to say everyone did it. Name the club. I will call and have them removed from my record.
Does anyone know what club in PA. that The dawg was target setter at. Please let us know. A P.M. will work. Roger C.

 

Roger, silly you. The PSSA set targets in the 2-hole for decades. BTW, that's where they hold the PA State Shoot. We don't have the benefit of unlimited easy backgrounds found at other places. Maybe you should ask those top shooters who get stymied by our much tougher targets why they show up once never to return.

 

Dawg, that is pure bull shit. PA. targets are no harder that than everyone else's. I have shot targets in 12 different states across this country, Don't feed me your bull about hoe hard PA. targets are. If they are set by the rules, they do not vary much state to state. Your running out of excuses. Roger C.

 

Roger, speak only about something you know as fact. As usual, you're wrong.

 

Mr dawg
You having alleged that you set targets illegally for some time needs to be taken a little more seriously. And you have implied your club expected that. This isn’t about my scores. This is about cheaters.

Again. What club were you setting the illegal targets?

 

Dawg. Have you ever shot any where but the easy targets that you set. What have you ever won? Besides being #1 cheater. From reading your posts. you are probably not a very trust worthy person, and you have proven that you are a person of no honor. sad but true. Roger C.

 

Well Roger, let's try this again. Please search for that missing thinking hat and quickly put it on. I'm sure you remember our deceased graphmaster and how he made the determination through charts and graphs how the 27 yd. line was about the maximum limit current shotguns were effective. He often stated it was quite possible that accurately pointed patterns could actually allow an occasional target to slip through a pattern unscathed meaning the element of luck-not skill determined a break or miss. That said, moving the target "CLOSER" to a long yardage shooter may actually give him an advantage over short yardage ones. That's exactly what increasing the angle (3-hole) does vs 2-hole targets. So, in reality, your attempt at increasingly the degree of difficulty actually helped the long yardage shooter's success. Kay Ohye proved it!

 

Butterfly, do you actually shoot trap or did you try this game once?

 

Dawg….
Let’s stop with the insults. What is the club’s name you helped cheat thru the years? I am guessing your son was part of the cheating. No way to know.

And did your friend Frank and Kay shoot there?

Give us the club’s name. We can handle the rest.

 

"WE", I didn't know you carried a little girl in your pocket. Now I'm scared!

 

no one is threatening you. The “ we” means those that are curious or have a need to know. You don’t mind telling us what the club’s name is you helped cheat. It is part of your story right?

 

Trust me, there's a few regular attendees on here at my ATA shoots that are laughing at your feeble attempts to pretend you know something about target settings. Did you ever shoot Trap or move past the 20 yd. line? You seem to have missed the required reading part where I said Kay only shot live birds at our club. While you continue faking you know something about talent I'll remind you of an event long ago sponsored by our good friend and former Winchester rep-John Muir. John sponsored a fun shoot that included a crap feast at its' conclusion. One of the events was wobble trap with some pretty wide angles. I broke 24/25 with two shots and thought I was king s--t. Frank Little broke all 25 with one shot. Keep pretending you know something about target difficulty for great shooters.

 

Dawg, Did you supply the CRAP for that feast? You sure sound like your still full of it. Apparently you never read the rule book on setting targets. Roger C.

 

Freudian slip?

 

Yeah, yeah I know-I should wear my glasses when I type. It's CRAB! I do remember setting targets in the 3-hole the year they were mandated. It meant absolutely squat. Heck, my ex-wife was never noted as being an outstanding shooter by any means but did break her one and only 100 straight at Elysburg on those oh so hard 3-hole targets. BTW, I read the same rulebook all the other target setters read on the East coast.

 

Yeah, some people keep proving they know so little about the Handicap system and how it works. The year 3-hole targets were mandated allowed only one shooter out of 50 on the top high average leaders list not to shoot from the 27 yd. line. So much for knowing anything about target difficulty.

 

Dawg, So you are telling us no east coast target setter can comprehend what they read? Lets hear from you east coast target setters is he correct? are you all ignorant as Dawg state that you are. Roger C.

 

Roger, we were obviously light years ahead of your logic or lack thereof. We were well aware 3-hole targets did not affect top shooters while news out West took much longer via carrier pigeon. I proved my point-and you?

 

Dawg
I didn’t ask you about target difficulties. I asked what club you threw cheater targets for? I think most here want to know the club name. And you implied I think the clubs in your area expected that. I think your club name would be a good start.

 

Why not check on the clubs in YOUR area first instead of an area you never shot in? Otherwise, you seem to believe it's fair to give long yardage shooters an advantage over lesser specimens. We were smart enough to figure that out-you-no!

 

Dawg. Time to tune you out, you do not know the meaning of fair play. It is hard to tell if you are dumb, stupid, or just a born cheater. Your arguments do not make good sense. Easier targets are a gift to the long yardage shooter. You compared your shooting ability to that of Frank Little, you could not to qualify to carry Frank's shooting bag. Roger C.

 

You're right about one thing-I wasn't qualified to carry Frank's shell bag. You, in turn, weren't qualified to wash his stinky underwear. That said, I simply proved the top shooters ate up those 3-hole targets the year they were mandated. You are fooling enough to believe bringing an angle target closer to a long yardage shooter would affect his scoring. So, when a long yardage professional shooter tells you a 3-hole target is the answer to making the handicap system more equitable you've been suckered. I provided proof you've been taken for a fool. Now move along and throw out a few more meaningless reasons why ATA shooting took a dump!

 

At the risk of bringing this back on the subject of my original post in 1993 55,000 ATA shooters and less than 100 All Americans. Today hundreds of ALL Americans and not so many ATA members. When will (or If) Gibson and the Boys admit they have a problem, let alone a plan?

Continental had 63 entrees today for a winter 50 bird meat shoot. Shooters seem to find enough shells for the fun events. I really don't think they will be shooting ATA in the future, and they certainly won't be buying new $20,000 trap guns.

In 1993 Continental wouldn't have had that large of a monthly shoot but in 2021 they do. In 1993 there were thirty clubs shooting ATA in Ohio. Not toady. Trap Shooting will survive at these small local 2 trap clubs around me here in Northwest Ohio. But as long as the ass wipes that run the ATA think they are smarter than everyone else so long Registered Shooting.

Also the local clubs around here shoot 50 yard targets, don't reset every field for every K 80 expert, and everyone shoots the same traps and the same yardages. No known cheaters here either.

 

I suppose here in PA we must have far more disposable income than other areas as many of our squads are totally K-80. Maybe it helps that Krieghoff International maintains a complete repair facility with several dealers nearby. One league I shot today has over 300 shooters while the other has around 200. Great competition that includes a few ATA All-Americans. That said, since I recently had some foot surgery, forced to shoot from a chair and struggled with the weight of my K-80 Trap Special I bombed the first league with a smashing 21/25. All wasn't lost as I broke out the old Model 12 in the other and finished with a much better 24/25. These old Model 12's are still sweet, far easier to move and this setup kicks less than a Krieghoff. One thing Brad and I certainly agree on the All-American team is a joke!

Brad, what's so hard about a 50 yd. target? I always set my targets a little short in the AM knowing quite well they'd be going to the 50 in an hour or two.

 

Dawg, ATA shooting took a dump because of cheaters of the rules like you. Men that follow the rules of the game, have nothing but contempt for the likes of you and the other cheaters in a gentleman's game. They look at people like you and think my how some people have no honor or self pride.
I knew Frank, and one thing he could not stand was a cheater, He stopped our squad at Vandalia, and ask all shooters if they seen a piece off of a target, we all said no, he looked at the scorer and said, mark it lost. It was Phil Shirks target. Frank would help a shooter with his game, then whip up on him in the event.
Men of honor play by the rule of any game they enter, only an ass wipe will cheat on the rules if the think it give them an advantage over honorable men. What class do you think you fit in? Roger C. P.S. You are now on ignore

 

Would the people who knowingly shot illegal 2-hole ATA targets be cheaters?

 

I think all the shooters who knowingly shot those "illegal" targets should ask the ATA to remove them from their records. 99% wouldn't know what hole their traps were set it and couldn't care. How 'bout having those multiple "Grand Slams" in Handicap shot at Spanish Fork on illegal targets removed too. That 'oughta shake up the ATA. I see those medical marijuana cards are producing the desired results in some.

 

In 1993 the WWII vets who loved to gamble were in their 70's and many were either dying off or quitting Trapshooting because of limited funds. Those golden parachutes only went so far. So went the money players regardless of holes in traps.

 

Paul, YES If they knew it was against the rules of the game. Roger C.
The 2 hole was put in to use if there was a strong head wind that was spreading the targets, the 4 hole was for if a strong tail wind was narrowing the targets.
I wonder if the money shooters demise and the two hole cheaters are connected? The money moved up to high gun, and the average shooter stopped playing it.
Roger C.

 

I'm sure my dear friend Roger is real busy determining "strong wind"-possibly by charts and graphs. I'd like to know just how many mph the wind needs blow to determine how to set his traps. Sometimes the wind increases during the day while sometimes it actually stops. Other times it may actually come from the side. I'd hate to be the one who needs to measure wind speed throughout the day and change holes accordingly. I'm glad I'm not that old!

What Roger also fails to understand is as the money players disappeared they removed things like yardage groups, increased the price of options, watered down payouts for 25's and 50's and made yardage increases too easy to attain. Smart shooters refrained from playing the money as most of it was dished out to under-handicapped professional trapshooters. Obviously, by the scores shot by fence shooters the year they made the 3-hole target mandatory the only people negatively affected were the average schmucks!

 

Dawg, I understand people that shoot only 16 yrd. targets are not the best shooters in the game. Some of them make the targets easier to pump up their ego's. It did not increase their handicap and doubles averages, to even the passable level. Great shooters are judged by their all around averages, are they not? Where do you fit into this to this picture Dawg? You rated your self up there with Frank Little but how did your handicap and doubles compare with his?
I doubt if you were ever a money shooter. Did you ever attain the 27 yard line? You try to come on as one of the great shooters in the game, but you do not qualify for the spot. You are just an old never was as a shooter that decided cheating was the only way to get recognition in the sport it didn't work out for you did it?
Roger C.

 

That's what Kay said. In fact he said the 400 championship targets meant more to him, cause a lot of people could not shoot the whole week for the HOA.

 

While I'm doing some name dropping, I like what Dan B said about talking about himself. ''I let my gun do my talking''.

 

Welcome back Roger. I certainly agree my doubles suck. I never could master double release triggers. As far as the 27 yd. line I made it there around 1994 after languishing on the 26.5 for a long time. My young son made the fence before me and shamed me into making the 27. That's what happens when you put all your financial resources into putting him on 4- ATA All-American teams. You wouldn't know anything like that. BTW, I never considered myself great-just better than average. Roger, now please tell all of us how those 3-hole targets allowed the average schmucks to beat the "big dogs" on a regular basis! Then tell the rest of us how you made this determination-no charts and graphs please.

 

Dawg, The three hole was stated in the rule book. That was what we were all to shoot. Neither you or any one else had the right to lessen that. If the EC and B.O.D. did it then we would all have shot them.
The big dogs had more natural ability than the average shooter, they also put the effort and work into the sport. The class system is the equalizer in doubles and 16's, yardage is the equalizer in handicap. Making the targets easier was and is not the answer, it is impossible to make champions out of shooter with meager ability.
WHAT YOU AND MANY OTHERS DID RUINED THE SPORT, it was never meant to be easy. Your contempt for the big dogs is showing. Roger C.
P.S. The average schmuck was never to beat the big dogs on a regular basis, on a good day he did, and that's what made the sport exciting to them.

 

Roger, so was the 2 and 4-hole in the rulebooks. Someone was smart enough to remove that stupidity. So, if the 3-hole is the answer to making trapshooting great why not the 4-hole? You're saying making angles wider will save trapshooting-why and how? Please explain how wider angles will make scoring fall by the "big dogs" and show some proof! Quite frankly-you can't!

 

Dawg, I never said making targets wider would make targets harder for the big dogs. I said no one has the right to throw registered targets that are not set by the ATA rule book. You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. You apparently never shot enough targets from the 27 to realize a hard left or hard right off of post 1 & 5 are not friendly to a 27 yard shooter. You do not have enough personal experience to be a judge as to how competitive targets should be set. You were never one of the big dogs. so you tried to bring the second and third best up to their level by cheating. It did not work out that way. the big dogs got better, the little dogs quit. You should sign you name so the honorable shooters will no who killed their sport. You can not justify what you did, no mater how many excuses you
make. You still can not comprehend what you read. it did not say to set the targets in the 2 or 4 hole it definetly said the three hole. You are grasping at straws now.
Roger C.

 

So Roger, by your admission, it's great to throw a wider target if all the little dogs quit. Please tell all of us how that will somehow grow the sport of trapshooting! With your logic, catering to the same shooters who dominate the Handicap system is a secret formula for success? FYI, look at the results from the year 3-hole targets were mandatory.-a complete failure at best. BTW, I was approached by the then ATA Treasurer and the new President asking for my opinion on the 3-hole rule and I said-try it. Meaningless drivel as it didn't mean squat. Maybe you remember reading traps in the 60's and 70's like I do. That was the era the so called "big dogs" pretty much shot a target they knew where it was going. I got pretty good at it too.

 

If you got good at reading traps back in the 60's and 70's, how come it took you so long to make the 27 as in 1994?

 

Real simple. I didn't have the extra bucks. Marriage, mortgage, college, layoffs and kids took the place of shooting. Fur trapping and picking up empty shell boxes for a $1 rebate gave me enough extra $$ to shoot a few local leagues and money shoots. Well, I did carry a 92% Handicap average in 1975 that made me 33'rd in the ATA high handicap averages. Please don't ask me what hole the targets were in. That said, I spent around $100,000 to pay for the expense of putting #1 son on 4 or 5 ATA All-American teams. I finally took a job with the Krieghoff import facility, sold a few guns and picked up a little more disposable income. Working two jobs including running a small business didn't allow much time to play and even less time to practice Handicap. I dedicated much of my shooting career making sure my family had enough money to play the game. Others obviously either didn't have kids and wives that wanted to shoot, be near them or were too selfish to encourage their participation.

 

rookieshooter, It is called lack of ability.

 

Like Roger said "lack of ability" He's sure right about that. I'll never forget the time the late Frank Little ran one of his many clinics at our club. At the conclusion of each clinic Frank always played a video of trapshooting pointers that included his late son demonstrating some lessons. Since Frank was unable to watch that video without breaking down he invited me to a one on one session with him at our doubles trap. If I may quote Frank "you don't need to watch that video as you are a naturally good shooter-let's go". Well, as many of us know Frank was quick and mastered the art of shooting the targets and loading his gun effortlessly. Me, on the other hand, not that quick. After a few pairs of playing catchup I turned to Frank and advised him to please at least give me a little time to load my gun. That brought a chuckle!

 

Dawg, We all have our cross to bear, but very few resort to cheating to achieve our goals. Did your all American son pump up his averages on fluff targets?
If so some other kid didn't make it, because of your lack of fair play. You must be very proud of your self. Roger C.

 

Someone once said this SITE wouldn't last 30 days.

I didn't think this THREAD would last 30 days.

We were both wrong.

 

Yeah, he did shoot AZ once. He described targets as high and easy-most of the targets he shot in PA, NJ. FL, Ohio VA and MD were lower. You wouldn't know anything about top family shooters as you never had any-or any that wanted to be near you.

 

Flyersarebest, It does deify reason doesn't it.

 

Roger, when I start breaking 81% Singles averages I'd ask the setter to put the trap in the center hole and hope I wasn't overwhelmed. I'd wannabe special just like you!

 

LOL, I'll say

"Reason" left the train station a long time ago

 

I guess its kind of like the old saying(after alls been said and done a lot more has been said than done). After all the words that have been printed on this post very little of substance has been said and it has turned into 7 1/2 or 8's.

Dave Berlet

 

Dawg, If you make it to the age of 85 do you think you will be better? I looked you up, You were not a very good shooter, your doubles and handicap stunk.
singles is the only thing you could shoot. And were not sure if they were on fluff targets. but odds are that they were.
If you want to compare all around averages not just 16's get it on. you have checked my scores at the ATA web, be sure and publish how we compare as shooters.
Roger C.

 

I can imagine this "conversation" taking place in some club somewhere near someplace. Five guys are sitting around a big table having a cold one after shooting.

Guy #1, Hey, I was just checking the 1993 average book and did any of you know that back then there was only something like 95 All Americans?
I mean in all the categories.

Guy #2, really? Only 95?

Guy #3, I was checking the Trap and Field list last week and if you count all the categories they have now in 2021 the number is something like
261. Give or take, I think I counted all of them.

Guy # 4 to Guy # 3, I'll bet my average was better than yours.

Guy #3 to Guy #4, HUH? What in the hell does that have to do with the number of All Americans now compared to 1993?

Guy #4, Screw that, I don't care about that. I was better than you and I want you to know it. You want to take this outside?

Guy # 5, I shot harder targets than both of you.

Guy #1, Is laughing his azz off.