*Poll* Handicap Yardage 27 or 30

Looking at the poll it is 60/40 in favor of a 30 yard line.

I thought it would be higher in cyber space.

 

Hap,
Some club owners took liberties with the interrupted traps also. If some of the lob was sanded off on the interrupter gear it would only kick the pawl out half as often. Some did it to save wear and tear on their machines and others did it to cut down on interruptions and still be in compliance with the rule. nothing is sacred when it comes to trap rules. Roger Coveleskie

 

Throw angle targets like trap ranges are laid out RIGHT ANGLES- No LESS THEN STRAIGHT AWAY FROM CENTER OF POST 1 thru center of trap house and LEFT ANGLES- NO LESS THEN STRAIGHT AWAY FROM POST 5 thru center of traphouse. No target shall be thrown less then 49 yards and No more then 52 yards. Targets not thrown to these spec,s by any club shall not be recorded by the ATA. It will only take a few penalties by the ATA and you may see clubs complying. Then you only need the 27 yard line. Take a birds eye view of a trap range layout don't you think thats why it was originally designed with the distance from each post in such a way? Makes me wonder or maybe I am just old fashion. Not trying to start a argument but I think that was the original idea!!!!! JMHO

 

But Kay Ohye's handicap average went up .5% the year they threw 3-holers. Now what?

 

The poll is still running 60/40 in favor of a 30 yard line.

I think we'll need more support then that before we start pouring concrete.

 

I think this poll is representative of shooters nationwide, that the a large majority of shooters support 30 yard lines is a myth.

It has been said by several supporters, only one or two traps at any club need the additional concrete for the new rule to work. Just wonder about those clubs who say "NO" what happens then? Will they not be able to hold shoots? Or will they have to exclude shooters who earned yardage beyond the 27?

 

If you didn't add cement I think you would be done holding ATA registered shoots.
And for sure you with all the 27 yard shooters getting punched you would need at least a 28 yard line.

I think we seriously have to look at tougher targets before more concrete.

We already have the equipment to throw them farther and faster as well as the room out in front of the traps.

I am not sure the current shooter base would support either option.
When I look at all the shooters who took the 2 yard reductions it is clear tougher targets is not the goal of most.

 

Do like we did 60 years ago and let those clubs that are unable to add three more yards allow longer yardage shooters to stay at the 27. Of course, the shorter yardage shooters will demand the extra yards after getting eaten up by under-handicapped 27 ydrs. in the near future. Trust me, Ray Stafford and the rest are not showing up at that little club shoot without AA points. While you're at it try to name a few clubs holding major ATA shoots without the ability to extend the walkways on a bank or two!

Why opt for tougher targets first when the majority of ATA shooters can't handle what they're throwing now? If you ever watched top shooters eat up tougher targets in extended shootoffs you'd realize it's not gonna affect 'em much at all!

 

At our AZ state shoot last year we shot off for a new TS2000 for the Lewis class qualifiers. Shoot one shot and they increase the speed 3 turns, raise the targets, repeat after the next shot till we have one shooter left standing. Mike Grady won the shoot-out without missing a single target! High and LONG targets and he crushed every one of them! The Pat trap was practically maxed out for speed and height at the end! Mike and his wife are NM farmers and can't follow the shooting circuit like some of the top shots do. Never the less, Mike is one tough shooter to be reckoned with! If he shot all the biggies he'd be more well known than he is across the land!

When our max yardage shooters handicap averages surpass the singles averages of the average ATA shooter, it's time to further handicap those mastering the game of handicap. We don't need to make the game tougher for the average joe either as that would be detrimental to growing the sport.

HAP

 

I still contend there are plenty of 27 yard shooters like myself who shoot at large and small clubs.
We don't chase AA points. We maintain an average above the break point and get several honorary punches annually.

I would not want to be excluded from the smaller clubs and I would not want to shot at a yardage closer then my assigned yardage.

 

Well I think the first step is for Hap and Ollie to rein in DLS if 3 hole targets are not the answer.

And we can move forward with ordering the cement trucks.

 

3-hole targets with voice systems, adjustable impacts and hot shells will not overly affect top shooters from the current fence. Take those three items away and the challenge returns. Since it's not ever gonna happen just pour some concrete and go from there!

 

Sounds good but you will have to explain it to Gary.

What are chances of this happening in the next 5 years?

What about the next 10 years?

After that it is unlikely to matter.

 

Don't worry wishbone, that 30 yd. line is being discussed way above us. Reality may be closer than you think!

 

That is great. Lets shake up the old game.

I would love to shoot from the 28.

And it doesn't have to get tougher for the guys up close on the 22 yard line.

Awesome. Lets make it sooner then later.

 

I am only guessing but any change has to be made after consideration by and approval of the ATA? Would it then be needed to include other organization sharing rules with ATA? Would all the clubs then need to provide input and then abide by any changes made and and conform or loose ATA standing? At the local small clubs I attend I have never heard discussions about a need for any changes. Of course, small time clubs and small time shooters. I hear discussions about the costs of powder, shot etc, the cost of birds and freight. Always someone talking about yardage reductions and so on but never longer yardages or different angles...... Beyond the world of the trapshooting forums and the folks that address angles and longer yardages are there many more involved? I believe small clubs rely on ATA membership for access to affordable insurance, jeopardize their ATA standing and perhaps it jeopardizes the clubs themselves.... Larry

 

Larry
The ATA decrees from on high and we toe the line.

As mentioned above there might be some relief for smaller clubs.

Or they could just have us standing in the grass.

 

Wishbone, everyone is entitled to their own opinions are they not? Neither myself or anyone else can control others opinions regardless of what the might believe in. I know Gary's idea of returning to settings we once had can't possibly work today! Why? Several reasons; 1. Pat traps can't throw the same quality of difficult targets as the hand-sets did. Pat traps hang around the middle ground way too long and not long enough at the extremes. (Ask Neil's opinion on why he feels Pats were a bad investment?) 2. After our last yardage increase, it took 9 long years before the first 100 straight was shot! Technology in ammo and other areas began it's rise in 1965 for giving shooters the ability to break better scores. If we were observant of our history in preventing domination of the game of handicaps, we should have had a 2 yard increase sometime in the early 80s! Without knowing our shooting history, we've been led willy nilly toward the easier mind set for our game. 3. I don't think we should have another yardage increase unless it carries with it a tougher standard of gaining it and maintaining it. Apply it to those so deserving of it and it's those winning or ties at a MAJOR handicap event! Once they are so honored to attain that new max, they must earn the right to stay there with a standard average. If not, they MUST by mandate take a yardage reduction at the same pace as everyone else does today. Only a very few clubs would need a place to stand at 30 yards using that scenario and not for every podunk club with a 27 yard line against their club house door that throws ATA targets. Maintain that standard handicap average or move forward, period.

That's where I certainly can't agree with some of the others ideas but respect their opinion and will listen to what they have to offer? If it's not best for our sport overall, I don't much care for those ideas at all.

One more thing, both shooters and clubs have always looked for an easier way to attract shooters via the easier route. This isn't new to our sport at all! Once we adopt the those easy targets though, it's bad for the sports perception others have of our sport. One of almost perfection?

HAP

 

Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion.
But we need to make a decision and move forward.
This discussion has been going on for years and we are no further down the road to change.

I would like us to reach a consensus before I am to old or too blind to have a chance to compete on the 28 yard line.

If we continue to fiddle there will be no reason to change as we will have just a handful of shooters left.

 

No you don't have it right.LOL

That is another issue that needs addressing.

 

Wishbone,
I can only wishfully think I would ever be good enough to stand in the grass. LOL.
I really think that clubs in general will do what they can to conform to whatever comes down. It is not a one way street when a club or an individual joins ATA or any organization.... There are things provided by ATA and expectations and commitments from clubs and members.
The Wallowa Oregon club would no doubt "pour the concrete" if there is a change in ATA but the chances for it to ever be used would be very minimal. In running a club or business that is "an investment with no return benefit" or simply cost. My opinion on exclusions written into any change is negative, my experience has been that rules written within rules only leave openings for interpretation and exploitation. Larry

 

squatty, have you read the posts here? Your question isn't even close. 18 yard shooters adhering to the current rules of fair play is certainly entitled to also win from there!!

I can't remember the number of years I've said, we must be careful who we vote in as our delegate. Depending on their attitude on their own shooting egos or what's best overall for our sport is how I perceive the delegates job. As they progress up the ranks they carry with them their true intentions?

Who could be first to attain a 30 yard handicap? Who would be the first to maintain the standard necessary to remain there? I see this as a new goal rather than a punishment as some feel? Might we possibly even have further gun and ammo improvements as a direct result of what we did in the 60s/to date after that last increase? I think so!

Larry said this; "I am only guessing but any change has to be made after consideration by and approval of the ATA?"

True, all members are the ATA but said a different way, we elect state delegates to speak our mind and for us at the Grand American each year. State delegates are elected by those attending their state shoot, if they even vote! Read my post above?



HAP

 

Yes squattty, you do have it right. Short yardage winners still out number long yardage winners over the last 100 years. Sparta already has 30 yard lines, so way aren't they used?

 

18-26='s 7 yds. Shooters standing between 18 and 26 yds. comprise the vast majority of all entries so I suppose they should win a bit more often!

 

Interesting views, to say the least.
Here's mine:
I believe present equipment will allow for properly-pointed targets to be consistently broken from a 30 yard-line.
I shoot a lot of trap games during the summer, and we shoot many of those games from 35 to 55 yards. Most 35 yard targets are broken (70%+), and a good number of 55 yard targets are broken (20%?)....and most guys are shooting Nitro 27's or the equivalent.
I don't believe 30 yard shooters will have much more trouble shooting 100's than they do now three yards closer.
Bring on the 30 yard handicap.
Next, the question of who will achieve the 30 yard limit; if there are 27 yard shooters now, who have "received honorary punches", then there are guys shooting right now who are 30 yard (and beyond??) shooters...both in ability and in classification

 

So again, why the need for 30 yard line if 18-26 win more often?

 

So in your opinion Harlan Campbell belongs on the 27 for 20 more years even if he breaks a few 100's from that yardage!

 

I shoot from the 20 and seldom break 90. The fact that Harlen can break 100 from the 27 makes him the better shot. I am not a selfish or greedy person that wants to further penalize him for my inability to shoot.

So, no I don't have a problem with Harlen. The people who have problem are those who do not shoot well but want to punish those who do shoot better.

It's pretty simple if you think about it.

 

Why would anyone not standing on the 27 yd. line be against having a 30 yd. line? Most will never attain the skill to be on the 27 let alone the 30 yd. line.
It makes an old timer wonder if the new age shooters can measure up to the shooters of years ago. This B.S. that modern guns and ammo are maxed out at the 27 yard line is only one mans opinion. Personally I do not think his answers are very creditable. A graph with a hole in it the size of a target is not the norm, it is an occasional happening.
I wonder why the Sporting Clays shooters are not complaining about tough targets? Maybe they love to compete in a tougher game than the trap shooters.
I have been an ATA shooter for about 40 years and have shoot over 300,000 targets, I am appalled at what has been done to this game, the wimp factor is now KING. Roger Coveleskie

 

I sure hope you always play all the options too. Harlan really appreciates guys like you paying his weekly grocery bill!

 

I play the Lewis and Jackpot purses that apply only to my yardage group. Harlen in not eligable to win my yardage purses. Most top event prizes pay out high gun 1st, 2nd and maybe third sometimes, so a short yardage shooter has just as much chance as winning as a 27 yarder. You will never win against shooters like Harlen by making it more difficult for him, if you yourself are a sub standard shooter and never better yourself. If you are nuts enough to try to rig the game so you win first place with an 87 at the 20, the 30 yard shooter will still beat you and then you will want a 33 yard line. If you can rig the game to win first prize with an 87, you will kill off the sport for sure.

Is that what you want?

 

I suppose I'm pretty sub-standard as I stood at the 27 around 20 years and now at the 26. If you're still standing at the 20 for years you haven't been winning much unless you're a professional sandbagger.

So you're telling us to leave the 18 ydrs. and guys at the 27 for over 30 years alone because it'll somehow screw up the game and all is perfect. Whew!

 

It's even more simple than you realize:
Nintey-nine percent of the guys who want a 30 are the guys who ARE shooting from the 27 now. The reason is the same as the guy shooting from the 20 that expects the other guy who also shoots from the 20 and who has received a yardage increase to move to the 21.
If Harlan etc. all shot from the 20 right now, you'd be wanting them to move the 21, the 27, or the 33. Why? Because most of us like and want the handicap system, which is based on handicapping! If the guy who struggles to stay on the 27 has to compete against the guy who can shoot 100's from the 27 on a bad day, then the handicapping system has reached the point of failure.

 

Andy, define perfect for me. I suppose in some peoples eyes, perfect is a place where everyone who steps to their handicap yardage would have an average within a percentage or two of everyone else and occasionally someone would pop a good score, but everyone has to take their turn-no one can get greedy. Now, how would you go about achieving that, and what would that average be? In defence of the 18 yard line, how far back should someone shoot handicap who can't average 90 in singles?

Now, for the tough question, how far back do you handicap the handful of those 27 yard shooters who average over 94? What if 30 yards doesn't do it? Do yardage increases finally stop when one of the select few gets run over in the parking lot when they are shooting an event?

The current system probably isn't perfect, but I think that any changes have to be made incrementally, with an eye on costs vs perceived benefits (2 yard reductions made some shooters more competitive who had languished on their old yardage for years). Any change that is going to cost clubs thousands of dollars, and the association as a whole, hundreds of thousands of dollars, should be tested first-just as Neil has proposed. Yes, we would all love a perfect handicap system, but short of a professional (first define professional and then, how does that square with the A in ATA) designation on some shooters, how do we achieve it?

 

The problem with incremental changes is they are long overdue. Change was required 20 years ago.
Regarding the Two Yard reductions, when these shooters earned back there yardage they were in the same boat as before. If you tell me the ATA is going to make changes based on the results of the 2 yard experiments that is great. Otherwise what was the point?

Glad to see you still have a sense of humor.

 

Mud pack that is the silliest thing I ever heard of. I have never been told by a 27 yarder he wants to move to the 30.

 

As a whole in ATA trap shooting, most members don't know what their own rule books say! Pretty evident too is they have no inkling of our sports history!

If a person such as Neil Winston had been around in 1955 and had all his equipment, he could have proved beyond any doubt a 2 yard increase was totally out of reach of the ammo of the day! We'd still be shooting from the 25 as a max yardage if that were the case back then?

Throughout our sports handicapping the better shooters history, it never mentions the scores broken by the average members, only those thought to have somewhat mastered the game of handicap. That's why our leadership mandated the 27 yard max in 1955 and why it took 9 long years before a perfect score was shot by Throckmorten in Colo.

One more point, why have a rule book if our members won't abide by or even know all those rules we adopt? That includes our delegates, EC and CHC bound by the same set of rules. If we know our sports history, we can see very clearly who, when, what and how our own rules in the book weren't adhered to by all! That my friends is a pure shame or sham on our sport! Ego driven changes instead of looking out for what's best for our sports longevity is an apt description.

HAP

 

If you can't average 90 in Singles the 18 yd. Handicap line is way too far already. Unfortunately, we can't go closer that the current 16 yd. line that better reflects your ability.

That said, please provide a cost estimate for all those clubs that MUST provide a 30 yd. line. Since so few clubs will ever see any shooters past the 27 yd. line a chalk outline, or wooden stake would be sufficient. 90% of the available ATA clubs will be waiting forever for Ray Stafford to appear. That glass holds no water!

 

Since the change would only make a difference to those already or soon to shoot from the 27 perhaps a poll is needed to see how those shooters feel about it? Larry

 

In theory moving the Big Dogs back to the 30 would give everyone else from 18-27 yards a better chance to win.

 

The Big Dogs have ruled handicap from the 27 for a long time I'm pretty sure they don't want to move.

 

The big dogs have ruled and bitched every time handicap yardage was increased, forever! Even before ATA came into being. The move from 22 to 23 yards caused quite a stir among the top shots of the day! The move from 23 to 25 also caused the same ruckus. Same things were said in 1955 on the move to the 27.

Difference today, some of the lesser shooters don't want the max yardage increased for ego reasons. The ultimate goal for some is the 27, if increased, know they'd never attain such a new shooting goal. Lots of those at the 27 today have earned that yardage via less than ideal scores. Once there, they don't have to move! I say let them stand there and bang away with the new elite goal of a new 30 yard max with mandated stipulations just for that bunch of hot shots. Even handicapped to the 30, he can still shoot with 27 yard shooters, depending on the spread!

Who'd be the first there and who can shoot well enough to stay? That would be an ultimate goal!!

HAP

 

Why 30 and not 29? Tradition has involved 2yd increments.

This would allow the marginal 27 harder to still shoot with his buddy's without post manipulation should one or more squadmates achieve the new yardage.

Hap, I agree with many of your comments except requiring ability/proving ones self to stay at max or any yardage. Its the shooters money, let them stand where they want.

I can't help but to think that the small clubs would have someone involved in the concrete trade that wouldn't charge for more than material to increase concrete on a couple traps. I mean really, we're talking about 2.5 yds of concrete to do these two banks. Really any club members could set up new yardage as pattern for radius is already established.

I also don't believe shooters will be out distanced at the 29 do to pattern efficiency based at the distance most of the top dogs along with second tier shooters execute the shot. I would say an average and definetly marginal 27yarder could be. But it will take most a period of time to learn what a difference two yards can make and it will be more about visual recognition/gun pointing than lack of breakable patterns.

But alas, the first I remember of this yardage increase necessity was in and about 78'-79' when a gentleman from I believe PA. had a petition at the Grand. It would seem that after 35 years something would have transpired if the majority of the shooters wanted such, wouldn't you?

 

deepbackwoods, the addition of 2 yards is correct since ATA took control of the game. Prior to that, it was sometimes a single yard that brought about complaints? ATA began with 23 yards, not long after, it was increased to 25 where it remained for 30 some years. We've had the 27 as a max for 60 years now?

If not for Arnold Reiggers handicap dominance, we may have continually had the 25 as a max? I've said this before, if Neil Winston and his equipment had been there, we'd for sure still be shooting from the 25! Why do I say that? Because he'd be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ammo wasn't good enough to stand a 2 yard increase, at that time! With all the advances in guns/ammo and everything else considered from 1955 to date, we should have had those 2 yards you mentioned in the late 70s or early 80s!!

Two yards today, under those circumstances considered above, just isn't enough to overhaul the neglect given to our sports handicap game. A new max of 30 would work as intended but for those in power dictating their egos instead of what's best for growing our sport.

Yes, we certainly differ on taking up space at a max yardage and I've stated my reasoning before. Are you aware of some, prior to a new rule mandating a choice of choosing to shoot from the 25 just because, one could begin at the 26? Beat 14 others a couple times and there you are, a full fledged 27 yard handicap specialist?? No sir, I certainly can't believe anyone should be so honored to just merely stand there banging out 60s and 70s even if money is no problem, it's our sports problem.

HAP

 

You missed my point. Most of the guys on the 27 want the OTHER guys on the 27 to move to the 30. Get it now?

 

If I broke a mid-90's average from the 27 I'd get bored and wanna move back. I'd get tired of all those steak and lobster dinners compliments of the losers and maybe enjoy eating hamburgers once again!

 

Roger Covelski: To verify what you said ask Kay Ohye, he was given them by Winchester, he quit shooting them because of the recoil, those were his words, I heard him say it numerous times and in person at Airport Gun Club during conversation after one of his classes there. Winchester introduced them at the Southern Grand at the Silver Dollar, I was there and bought a case of them, I used them in Buddy shoot, shootoffs for a long time, They were fast as Danny Keaton of Waverly Ohio chronoed them, he showed me the print out, all were over 1320fps on his chrono. They were Silver and Marked ++AA++ on the hulls.
Dr.longshot

 

MUDPACK: It all began with the 34 degree angles and 48yd targets, set up in the NW Presidential Era.

If a shooter cannot maintain an average, to stay on the 27yd line, he should be mandated to move up in yardage to the 26, and he still can shoot with his 27 yd buddies,

The top 10 27 yard shooters averages should be the Average factor, to stay on the 27, fall below that average, you are moved to the 26 yard line
Dr.longshot

 

I will gladly shoot at the 30 yd. line, but while were at it ...lets make the minimum yardage 22 yds...

 

No yardage increases should be given for a score less than a 97 in Hdcp, Period. Regardless of the amount of shooters, this will stop the crowdings at long yardage. That's a 4 yard buffer 97-98-99-100 only one yard , given per win, takes 4 wins to get to the 27, from the 24 yd line, HOW ABOUT THAT FOR A RULE? Just my suggestion. I did say Suggestion
Dr.longshot

 

2015 Dixie Grand American Handicap Champion broke a 96. There were 328 entries.
Of course this deserves a punch.

 

Dr Longshot says: "It all began with the 34 degree angles and 48yd targets, set up in the NW Presidential Era."

I'm confused, I'm learning that Grand Slams after ... what did you say ..1985? weren't worthy of as much respect as the earlier ones mainly because of the easier angles. OK, I may not agree, but I understand what you are saying. Now, how does NW 's Presidential Era come into play with this time period? Seems your dislike for him is clouding your posts.

 

Some people are not competitive anymore...or were never competitive and now they just want to sling sh*# at everyone that shoot good scores by either from good skills or just plain luck...

 

....or someone who constantly prove them wrong with verifiable facts....

 

You would think the best would welcome the opportunity to prove themselves but I have yet to hear one say he can handle it.

 

When the vast majority of 16 yd shooters cannot average nearly as high as top shooters average from the 27 we've got a problem. Unfortunately, we seem to have way too many hero worshipers who are so blinded by top shooters aura they fail to see the the much bigger picture!

 

Who puts money on the line in handicap when you are a B C D shooter and the guy on 27 has an A handicap average? joke

 

Doctor,
Your reference to the speed of the SILVER hdk. shells is almost correct. The ones that a friend of mine gave me crono'd at 1390 to 1396. You were close. The speed of the shells are a very small part of what is wrong with trap shooting today. Soft targets, lax rules on the presentation,delegates that seem to just go along with what ever the ATA wants. It seems that they have discarded the rule book totally.
A lot of shooters have just give up on our sport and the EC does not have a clue as to how to reverse the trend. They seem to be trying the same tactics that sent Skeet shooting into the tank. Give every one that shows up to shoot a trinket so they feel like a champion. Make the fluff targets attractive to the feel good shooters.
How are you doing after your surgery? Good I hope. Roger C.

 

Neil,
If the EC decides to institute the small gauge guns in trap shooting how many events will be thrown at a shoot. Will we be shooting singles, handicap, and doubles in all gauges? How many shooters do you think will quit shooting because of the cost of the added guns that will be needed? I think you had better quit huffing that glue. Roger
I'm sure you will read this and I would like an answer. You have never answered any of my questions before but break with tradition and enlighten us on this one. Roger C.

 

I have read these threads over and over, I believe the only real test should be done using a GMV-Super Star Trap as it can throw the angles, more angles than a Pat Trap from what has been posted on this site, angles should be 44 degrees and 50-52 yards, all shooters will be shooting the same targets, same angles, same distance, and we will get a true prospective result. I do not believe we will need the 30 yard walks, but the results from the 28, 29, and 30 yard will prove beyond a shadow of doubt what yardage will be needed. Shells being used must be recorded, I personally feel the Handicap Loads will give an edge, the results will prove whether I am right or wrong. Neil may not agree on the GMV-Trap, but Roger Covelski knows traps, and I think he will agree with me on the trap choice. I want this to be a fair and un-biased target presentation, with the best trap machine on the market, that can give more angle presentations, for a better documented test, Target speed to be set with a high grade Radar gun, Target height set with stick from a post at height of target throwing arm, at 10 yards per ATA specs. Stick is to be measured for correct length at T bar.

If you do not agree with this state exactly what you dis-agree on!! I think most will agree with me on this, I have had over 6 weeks going over these threads while recuperating and gave a lot of thought on this.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Small ga. guns are being shot at the Grand and one event had some ATA added money. Imitating the game of skeet can't possibly help our sport of trap shooting. I shot those events and enjoyed shooting them but it isn't something we should dive into hoping it will increase our ranks.

Gary, we got to this point in trap shooting today one small step at a time over the years. Champion one small step at a time, change, and work from that point. The outline you have above could have been merely stated, we should go back wholesale to the days of old? Shooters won't buy into such a wholesale change at all but would accept small changes, one at a time?

HAP

 

Roger my friend Danny Keaton of Piketon. Ohio Chrono'd some and that was his results, I used them for buddy shoot shoot offs till I ran out of them.
Gary

 

Hap, the test has to be a complete test, a partial test will not explain anything, but in-complete results, we have had enough of in-complete results, that is what got us where we are. Those target settings will show TRUE complete results, and that is what we need.
A true test on 44 degree angles traveling 50-52 yards, from a trap that will throw more angles than a Pat Trap. Pat Trap angles have been discussed on here about their lack of them, time and time again. I think Roger Coveleski will agree on that, and with the GMV
Trap selection. What do you think Roger?
Dr.longshot Gary Bryant

 

Doctor,
The silvers I referenced to were were given to me by an all American. they were of the time when ammo companies were wooing the top shooters with shells. I loved them. No need for them now, as all we see are fluff targets. They cut down the angles pretty good even with the three hole. Touch the target pull trigger whalla not target. No time to get out of the way of the shot.
The GMV was the best trap machine ever brought to the market. we lost it due to them never putting a patent on their design. If I remember it right. Roger C.

 

Doctor,
You are 100% correct. The GMV was the best clay target machine to ever come to the market. When I sold one of the doubles machines I would bring it into my plant. I would adjust it before delivering it to the club. I would not deliver until I could throw 9 of 10 doubles targets into 5 gallon buckets that I had located in my parking lot. Try that with the most popular trap on the market today. Better have a skid of targets to begin with. Roger C.

 

mah66,
Do not worry about where the 27+ yarders will practice. They are very astute, they will find a way. I shot at clubs where I stood in the grass to shoot 27 yards. They will survive, and so will the clubs.
The game will never survive small gauge registered events. Dumbest idea of the year. I shot the 28 guage event at the grand. It was fun, but how many can afford the cost of the guns involved, or the ammo. Have you priced 28 guage ammo lately. How many small guage trap guns have you seen on the market? There is either POT,GLUE or BOOZE involved with this idea. Roger C.

 

Them hurt when you shot 'em.....great dove loads.

 

Gary, the true test you mention would mean scores shot would be lower. Trying to convince me isn't the problem. A wholesale change just ain't gonna happen as you'd like even as a test. You've said that same thing for several years now so how many have you convinced with that tactic? Pick out something you feel needs changed more and try convincing new and old shooters to at least give it a shot or talk with their delegates about it?

HAP

 

Hap;
I'm not sure if you old timers have the time left to convince the newer delegates to revert back to any of the old game.
Are you going back east this summer? I'm going to go to the Ohio state shoot are you? If I do not see you have a great summer.
Roger

 

Roger, I'm going to the Grand, then on to Ohio and I'll shoot some at the Cardinal Classic. I'll see you down the road somewhere.

HAP

 

Hap'
I am going to skip the clasic this year. I'm coming home after the grand. Roger

 

I'll find you at Pats place my friend. Shoot well and have fun too!

You're absolutely correct about time. All we can do is speak to others while we're here that may not know there may be a better way of growing our beloved sport. Till my last breath.

HAP

 

The myth that top shooters get special ammo is just that, a myth. During the years mentioned, and now, I was good friends with one of those "top dogs" on the "program". He got shells into is store by the truck load and there were just always a few more than the order called for. He did not pick through the truck load to find his "special" shells. He just used the ones from inventory as needed. When you speak of special knowledge, don't forget, others are just as friendly with the with some of these "top dogs" as you and have the same "supposedly" inside knowledge. They are just better shooters than the average guy. Jimmy Borum

 

I seem to remember many years ago, probable in the mid 70's, the Ljutic's opened a premiere shooting facility in Yakima Washington. I believe on their opening event they had two special handicaps. One registered and from your ATA yardage and one non registered with your handicap based on your score on the first. They had a formula for increased or decreased yardage. If I remember right, Daro won the first with a high 90's score and the second, from 30 yards, with a higher score. I'm getting old and maybe it was a wet dream but that is how I remember it.

I do not believe the average shooter could handle 30 yards (many of them now on the 27) on a consistent basis but I have no doubt our top shooters, although effected to a degree, would still win their share of events from the 30. It is a tired old argument used every time the ATA has increased the maximum handicap. It has never proved to be valid. Two dimensional patterning will never prove, or disprove, the ability of a shot string to break targets. Most of the holes you see in the pattern board passed through the paper at different times and are only valid for a target going absolutely straight away from you. That doesn't happen very often. Some keep saying angle is the enemy of trapshooters. I believe distance is more of an enemy. An extreme angle target is broken at less distance by a top shooter than a straight away. JMO Jimmy Borum

 

Sure, but less often.

Passing type shots are harder to hit than shots from behind. Ask a skeeter?

 

I agree that the ammo companies didn't run a special batch of ammo just for the shooters shooting their shells. They got the same flavor as everyone else has access to for the price of admission.

Jimmy's correct, stiff angles aren't as far away as the straight away is when shot by great shotgun pointers. Thing about stiff angles though, its a test to do it accurately day in and day out when contending with Mother Nature.

Sir, do you recall, prior to rule changes just how easy it was to attain the 27 yard max? 14 buddies and your high score of 89 and in like Flynn? One could literally nickel and dime himself to the max. Thank goodness that has been changed somewhat today! So, has the handicapping system been a failure OR was it a rule failure? I say it was the rules of the game that has failed to allow lessor shooters become a max yardage shooter.

That isn't the way our max yardage should be attained or kept in place either.

HAP

 

They did not get a special run made for them-----they got the run of grand American shells to use which were hotter.

 

For several years all Grand shells were special run for "everyone". They always had special markings to identify them. After the Grand the left over shells were sold to distributors and you would find the markings on some bought from distributors long after the Grand was over. I used to buy some from a friend and distributor every year before leaving Vandalia. Jimmy Borum

 

IMO, the only thing "special" was the printing on the cases. Great advertisement and a little momento of the Grand.
The "big dogs" might have received their shells without charge, another smart move on the shell mfg. part, but I don't believe they were any different than the rest of the run.
If their shells were better how did so many guys that weren't in the "big dog"
class end up winning the GAH?

Just some thoughts while I'm sitting here on the phone waiting for some kid in India named Imran to remotely fix my damn computer. Been over 3 hours now.
Another hour or so and I'll give you a report on how 7-1/2's or 8's worked on it.
It's Zero Dark Thirty over there now. With my luck the shift will change and I'll have to start all over.

Flyersarebest

 

Maybe I'll get lucky and the kid is a bunker shooter.
Then again, haven't seen the curser move in about 20 minutes. He either went home or fell asleep.
I am so screwed

Flyersarebest

 

In my experience these online computer repair entities are mostly rip-off artist. Especially if they want to take control of your computer and start drawing you pictures of what is wrong and how it is corrupted and the many hundreds of problems you have in your registery. I had a dickens of a time getting my money back from a couple of them by challenging their charges to a credit card. They never fixed what they were contracted to do but claimed they repaired many other problems I never gave them permission to work on. Pay a reputable "local" repair facility. Most earn their money. And I don't mean the "Geek Squad". Jimmy Borum

 

Thanks Jimmy, after 7 hours in 3 different sessions it is fixed.

 

NW Guest....Has making the targets easier (narrower) had the desired effect?

 

You need to read Historybuff's history about NW.s actions, it is on this site and in ATA Minutes
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I am sure Guest NW can speak for himself.

 

I have picked out what needs changed, I am not interested or trying to change your views, When you say a wholesale change is not going to happen, how much more negative can you be. Even at a fair legitimate test isn't going to show anything? I disagree with you, that is what it is going to take. It will show COMPETETIVE TARGETS and that is what handicap is about.

DLS

 

Gary, I've said it before, you've been preaching this wholesale change needed for years. How many delegate (read delicate) minds have you changed? With you it seems it's the whole pie or nothing and that just isn't going to happen overnight regardless of how many times you write it. I don't care whether you disagree with me at all but you're still wrong in your want tactics. Notice I didn't say what you want is wrong????

HAP

 

or not?

 

When the best cant achieve anything close to a an A average the handicap system is working. Not now.

 

I firmly believe that the handicap system that is currently in place requires some adjustments, but any adjustments will have to be carried out by the ATA through the elected delegates and therein lies the problem. Electing the delegates that would be willing to make changes will be the challenge and a lot of lobbying will have to be carried out but unfortunately would take some time.
As far as adding concrete for anything past the present 27yds, patio stones 18"x 24" are not expensive and as long as the space is available can be laid on top of the ground after a little levelling. I believe that this would help the smaller clubs at very minimum cost but allow them to accomodate any shooters past the 27yd line.

 

I have talked to a few 26+yard shooters that would welcome the challenge and put a end to log jam at 27yard line.
I also regularly shoot Oakley from 32+yard line and can tell you a Nitro 27 or a Super Handicap can more than reach out and break targets. Love watching a old fart with a 870 and fixed full choke smash target a few feet off ground after its missed by "better " guns in hands of "TOP " shooters, its where sport was designed to be, A CHALLENGE TO HELP BECOME BETTER WING SHOTS. As the announcer says in old T.V. show.... we have the technology....

 

The biggest fear I have about the 30 is clubs that will cheat and throw shorter targets. Then what have we gained? We will need some harsh penalties.

 

The real challange is not in changing the rules, it is with changing the shooters. A trip to the range often reveals folks bending rules, trying to fudge just a bit........... Easy to write rules, difficult to impliment them and see they are enforced. Larry

 

See: Winner of GAH, breaks 100 then 50 in shootoff from the 18 yard line.
For more info.

Flyersarebest

 

You would expect a AA shooter to perform like that under pressure!

 

Gary, not following your response. Your timelines make no sense. I'm not following how Neil's Presidency screwed things up back in the late 80's as you imply?

 

Interesting 4 pages of posting....... Our small clubs follow ATA current rules. Two of the more local clubs host one or more registered shoots each year, LaGrande Oregon just held the Oregon State Championship shoot. Lots of talk about history, who's fault things are, names of big dog shooters are abundant in the posts. History, names, scores, shoots, yardages are all very important but when trying to attract new shooters and keep those already shooting we do not set the kids down and indoctrinate them into the ATA rule book, make them memorize all the names of current and past "big dogs" that break all the birds all the time. We also do not tell them that when they finally learn the game they are going to be penalized for being good. Increased yardages are not given as punishment or penalty, they are and should be a prize and award for excellence. To the new shooter the 16 yard is a mile from the bird, the 20 almost the outer limit of the solar system and the 27 is a line of horror. Big names? Big scores? The new shooters know their Dad, Uncle, classmate, a friend from across the county and someone they shoot with. It would be nice to generate 4 pages of input on getting these folks onto the 16 yd line with their buddy...... probably do more to strengthen the sport............ Larry