New trap machines to throw harder targets? Dump PATS?

Sorry Ollie, didn't mean to upset you.
Just do me a favor, please.
Stop crapping on suggestions to fix trapshooting.
I know it's not what it used to be.
I know it's not going to go back to what it used to be.

I remember hand set targets and the days before voice releases.
I didn't shoot ATA then, and honestly didn't know about it.
My uncle used to take me to the VFW grounds on Wednesday nights every week during the summer 45+ years ago.
I got to shoot 2-3 rounds then my butt went in the traphouse to set birds the rest of the night.
They had an old Western trap that cocked itself and oscillated but you had to set the bird on the blade.

Remember seeing pictures of the Grand American at Vandalia in the magazines. Probably late 60's and said to myself ,"Someday I'm going to shoot there."
Well, 40 years later when my boy and I joined the ATA, we stopped there on our way to Ocean City. Planned to shoot a couple rounds to fulfill a distant dream. We new the Grand had moved to Sparta, but didn't know there weren't any trapfields left.
We did get a private tour of the old HOF before it left.

Sorry again if I really did upset you.
But suggestions need to be made and all suggestions are worth discussing.

 

Really upset-hardly. Just remember the fact most smaller clubs have no interest in replacing traps, adding computers or speeding up targets. Since I've been shooting Trap since 1963, never quit, managed a very successful trap range I suppose I'm aware of every change both positive and negative in our little shooting world. When I say 95% of todays' trapshooters are simply never going to be real competitive I speak from experience. That hasn't changed in over 50 years and will probably worsen. Since those 95% comprise most of our shooters base it might not be a great idea to overly mess with the system.

Yes, the ATA's policies of promoting trinket shooting has turned Trapshooting into mostly a party atmosphere for campers. Even the smallest suggestion for turning Trap back to it's roots is met with tremendous resistance. Since the gambling tradition left the game attendance has suffered. Recruiting new trapshooters and ATA members was far easier when a large potential payoff was offered instead of pewter plates and flashlight trophies becoming the norm. Think again!

 

Roger a 52-54 yard target and a legitimate #4 Hole target, targets 3 yds wider than a #1 &#5 targets for starters for all targets Sgls, Hdcp, & Doubles

GB......................................DLS

 

Dr.
Who do you think that would affect more? The AAA shooters Or the B class and under shooters? Doc, you have been around a long time the same as me. The only thing that will equalize the game of handicap. is MORE YARDAGE. No mater what is done to the target flights, the lesser classes will suffer more than the more proficient shooters. Even a 30 yd. line will only slow down the good shooters for a while. We should also add, mandatory reductions, for anyone short of the 27 yd. line. Try this for one year and then evaluate the results. Start right after the Grand this year run the test.
There is nothing to loose, and maybe the EC will look like hero's for their foresight. Roger C.

 

The meat shoots in Oh and PA don't have to worry about the stupid ATA settings. No wonder OH and PA are doing well. More at a meat shoots in those states than some chain shoots.

 

Oldschool, Do the meat shoots set their targets to the (ATA) standards? Or do they use the tried and true settings of yore? I was a OSTA shooter prior to 1988, and those targets are not shot today anywhere. Except when BRAD set them at the Cardinal his last year there. Roger C.

 

Most that I attend are harder than two hole settings. You can be sure there wont be an EC member threatening to shut down the shoot if an All American Wanna Be thinks the targets are tooooo hard. What was that EC guy's name.

 

OldSchool,

I cut my eye teeth in trap shooting at the Urbandale trap club in N.E. Ohio. On a calm day the head wind was about 30 MPH. 3 hole 50 yard targets. I would like to see some of these woosies of today shoot there. Roger C.

 

also make the arm longer, plus a few other things that would improve the target flights of the equipment. I ain't changing my machine for anyone.

That's been my complaint about a Pat for years.....the arm should be longer to give the target more spin. But, I'm sure there will be a engineer on here that will say a longer arm would make no difference.

 

Riverside, the right target of a pair of doubles from a Pat Trap spins about 200 RPM (maybe 250 - I don't exactly remember) less than the left target. And the arm distance it travels down must be about 4 1/2 inches less than the left target. This is suggestive evidence that the length of the arm has an effect on the spin of the target.

However, the reason the radar rules specify clocking the right-hand targets is that it is going slower than the right, since while the spring has to accelerate two targets while both are on the arm, just one after the right-bird exits. And faster birds spin faster.

So the jury is still out on the exact effect of arm-length on target spin. But I've never heard that the right target is "dusted" more often than the left, so maybe once the spin is enough, it's enough. Or maybe not.

Can R.C. tell us what the effective length - that is, how far the contact point of the singles bird traveled down it - of the WW handset's throwing arm was?

N1H1

 

I've recently had a few conversations with Peter, GMV's owner.
They're big in Europe, and still making the machines.
He shipped a bunch of machines over here on credit and got stiffed. I'm pretty sure that with cash up front, he'd be willing to ship here again. I might be interested in getting in on this if there are any other interested parties.

He also had a bit of dirt on the current selection of PAT, and a handful of free machines given out here and there to lube the process. I can't indepently verify this, maybe someone here can help out this one too

 

Well guys, I prefer the Superstar too, but their day's are about over here. My reason is that it is much easier to see that the field is centered with them, and just about impossible with a Pat.

As far as Pat's not throwing the hard angles to same frequency as other angles, I am not familiar with the design details or waht happens, but if they never stop at the extremes, why not just lengthen the spacer a little so the problem is solved?

And what is the desired frequency for an angle anyway? Would seem we want an equal chance of any legal angle, don't we??? Well, we never got that with a 1524, or a Superstar for that matter. I think that was the desire, but that design just won't allow it.

 

Bat, the difference between a linear (Pat Trap) and circle-based (WW and GMV) traverse is that the circle-based ones move like a sine-wave. It goes up, slows, then reverses at +1, speeds up when it's in the middle, then slows again as it reaches -1 and so on.

The Pat trap, in contrast, relies on a linear actuator which slows a lot less as they reach the end and so spend more time in the middle and, presumably, offer a more evenly distributed menu of angles.

The consequence is that a GMV or WW goes fastest in the middle, slower at the extremes and so it not only spends more time at the ends of it's travel, it does not , and in fact cannot provide equal frequency of all angles; larger angles predominate, even if not by much. We shoot GMV's at the Heartland Grand and I cannot tell any difference at all, but them I'm not as sensitive as many here, I guess.

By the way, the assertion that Pats do not stop at the extremes is wrong. They do and can throw a target there as well as anywhere else. They can throw a target moving or stopped too, just like the others, If that weren't true, there would be a noticeable delay for some targets and not for others. But there isn't.

N1H1

 

They took the manual people out of the EQUATION, and put in the shooters Voice to pull targets.

GB............................DLS

 

Well gee that is confusing. According to you they stop but throw fewer extreme angles. You previously posted the below stuff:

As I was scanning this thread I ran across a (properly attributed and accurate ) quote from a piece I wrote about Pat Traps and WW and GMV's a couple of years ago.

""1. The motion of the trap slows as it gets far-right or far-left so it spends more time there, increasing the chances that it will be there when the command to throw a target arrives and
2. The motion of the trap is fastest as toward the middle so it spends less time there, decreasing the chances that it will be there when the command to throw a target arrives.
The combined effect of 1. and 2. is that Pat Traps throw fewer angles and more straightaways than do either WW or GMV traps."

I must say I didn't even understand that, plucked from its context. As I read the source I wonder if it was the reason a couple of posters thought I didn't like Pat Traps. I think it is a good article and will be of interest to some of the technically-inclined participants here. As is noted above, it's from Nov 16, 2013. Here's the whole thing so readers here can learn a bit about some brand differences and the trigonometry which underlies those differences.

"Tim, you not only pass, you get the gold star with oak leaf cluster.

For those who don't watch tennis, a sine wave looks like this:



In your mind, label the horizontal axis "time" and the vertical axis "position." Then the slope of the snaky line will be "velocity" but think of it as "speed," how fast the trap is moving, side to side. This sine wave illustrates the travel of a Winchester-Western or a GMV or any other trap who's oscillation is controlled by a rotating disc.

Where the line crosses the horizontal midpoint, where the trap is in the center, the slope is greatest; that is, it's speed is the highest. In contrast, as the line (the trap) approaches its highest and lowest values (trap is approaching hard-left and hard-right) the slope lessens (the trap slows down) and at the extreme it stops before smoothly accelerating up to maximum speed in the other direction which speed will again occur when the trap is in the middle.

Now in your mind replace the sine wave with simple saw-teeth, moving from one high to the next low, then the next high in straight lines. This is more like the motion of a Pat trap which hardly stops at all when it is changing directions.*

If the uninterrupted travel is the same, say ten cycles a minute, then you can see the differences. The speed in the center of the Pat trap is less, but the speed is maintained almost to the point where it reverses. So the WW (or GMV) trap spends more time at (edit: or) near the extremes for two reasons:

1. The motion of the trap slows as it gets far-right or far-left so it spends more time there, increasing the chances that it will be there when the command to throw a target arrives and

2. The motion of the trap is fastest as toward the middle so it spends less time there, decreasing the chances that it will be there when the command to throw a target arrives.

The combined effect of 1. and 2. is that Pat Traps throw fewer angles and more straightaways than do either WW or GMV traps.

Neil

$50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50 $50

 

Then Pat Traps should be the most popular!!

 

At least for those that cannot shoot from their handicap. Such as the delegates sitting on the 27 that should be on the 20. Or Tshot.

 

Several years ago I bought a "SUPER STAR" from Roger---It threw "PERFECT" doubles !!!--If you like 2 "curved" doubles, shoot them on the Pat traps !!!!
------"TERRIBLE" doubles targets !!!---Best doubles was the old "1524" Win.
This is not "Just My Opinion" ask anyone that shot at my house on the SUPER STAR and the 1524 Win. !!!!!----Gary B.

 

FG, you wrote:

By the way, the assertion that Pats do not stop at the extremes is wrong.
Well gee that is confusing. According to you they stop but throw fewer extreme angles.

The problem you may be having, FG, is the two meanings of the word "stop."

1. The one from dynamics meaning having no speed and

2. The one from trapshooting referring to the operation of an interrupter.

I was using it in sense 2. Various people have claimed on forums that there's is some undefined program in Pat Traps that ensures that they will neither undergo an interruption nor throw a target when they are at their far-right or far-left position.

I have taken and looked at enough 600 fps videos of operating Pat Traps to tell you for sure that there is no such provision. As I wrote above:

"By the way, the assertion that Pats do not stop at the extremes is wrong. They do and can throw a target there as well as anywhere else. They can throw a target moving or stopped too, just like the others, If that weren't true, there would be a noticeable delay for some targets and not for others. But there isn't."

As far as definition 1,, it should be obvious that a trap or anything else on a single track has to stop if it is to reverse.

I hope this clears things up for you FG, and thanks for posting that quote of mine from long ago,

Neil

By the way, Pat Traps and GMV's put the same spin on targets when the speed of the bird is the same.

 

NO actually N1H1 that was not my quote.

I was quoting you. You see the stuff in the Pink....it says who wrote it. My quote says you said they stop. I understand the difference. I only quoted and copied and pasted.

You are up late tonight. No boozing and typing.

I hope you sent a check.

 

I know you were quoting me, FG. I was just explaining to you what I said.

What is it you don't understand about it? It's perfectly clear to me.

N1H1

 

The bottom line is the PATs throw fewer extreme angles. (at least according to you) It is irrelevant whether they stop anywhere or not.

Your statement The combined effect of 1. and 2. is that Pat Traps throw fewer angles and more straightaways than do either WW or GMV traps.

When that check for $50 will arrive.