When to say foul.....?

I am in a mid size shoot and the fellow to my right has 3 times failed to shoot at a legal target.

Are the shooters supposed to call him on this or is it the scorer's job. Are we supposed to interrupt the next shooter and say that is a loss.

When is it too late to say something?

 

I would never object under those conditions. It's just not nice. I would bear down and worry about my own score and let that shooter's conscience dictate what he does or doesn't do.

If you wait for a teenage score keeper to make a ruling, you will be waiting awhile.

 

Having had that situation happen. After the second one I reminded him he is allowed two failure to fire and the next is a lost target. He was having trouble with the gun not cocking. We waited for him to replace the gun. Have shot with him since.

Ajax

 

Clubs could do a better job of training scorekeepers but a lot don't want to take the time because of the bottom line. Deliberately turning down targets isn't a part of our game and is covered in our rule book for ATA sanctioned shoots. Failure to fire allows two per sub-event but it's difficult to render any ruling without being there to witness such things or unless explained in complete detail. Get a rulebook, study it and possibly prevent any shooter from taking advantage of the young scorekeepers lack of knowledge! That's fair to everyone and to our sport!

HAP

 

Third is a lost target right then and there. I don't have a problem questioning it. The rules are the rules. Shooter should call it on himself if the scorer doesn't.

Lefty

 

Question it as soon as it happens.

 

If the score keeper is marking a FF to indicate a failure to fire and marks the broken target when the gun is fired any more than two can be changed at the posting when the review is made to post. So if the shooter has three FF marked the third one would be a lost even if he broke it when reshot.

 

I have seen any number of shooters at ATA Reg. shoots turn down good legal targets. Any number of reason's are used for it.
Maybe the bird got away from them and they pulled up and did not shoot, they call for another bird, break it and so it goes. I have also
seen shooters pass up a angle bird that was not to their liking, and these were not Class B, C or D shooters either. Some shooters
call it target managment. I call it cheating. You call for the bird, it is yours. The 3rd FF is a lost bird.
It use to be that you had to have a dented primer with the shell did not go off or the wad did not clear the barrel.
Now we have dummy the sport down and you can pick and choose the birds you like.

Birddog

 

It is not a rule I see abused.

Granted some of you probably run with a much rougher crowd then I do.

Most guys call it on the "F to F" on themselves.

Any squad I have been on when someone has there third "F to F" a couple of members turn to the score keeper and announce lost.

It doesn't happen often with guy experienced shooters.

I don't think it is a big deal.

 

This is SO true! I have to concentrate hard enough to keep my targets breaking. While the OP makes a valid point If I start letting my mind drift it pisses me off and then I start missing.
As much as it irritates me that a guy will for what ever reason pass on legal targets I need to keep my business my business.

One thing that proves this is while I am shooting at one of my own shoots I lose targets. It is inevitable that we will be clicking away and the trap next to me will have a guy yelling out a call two or three times, or the trap will throw a couple bad targets, or something to that effect. It is very very hard to not see these distractions and lose your focus on breaking targets. I think this is the main reason host's do not participate.

 

I 100% agree with this and is also my position.

This brings up another scenario that I was arguing with another shoot management guy...

SO, by the rules and we know it says more than 2 F2F are losses. It also says a shooter may turn down an "illegal target" This guys position is...and to exaggerate, If a shooter gets 10 "illegal targets" they are NOT F 2 F.

My position is......A shooter can ask for targets to be checked at ANY time so if the shooter is NOT asking than they are F 2 F. However, the rules does not directly address this.

I was referring a squad last summer and a shooter did pass on the hard angles. We announced F 2 F and he must know the rules as he stopped at two times of doing this. I was ready to call them lost targets but never got pressed to do so after the second F 2 F was announced. While a shooter can CLAIM it was illegal a good score keeper needs to say.........."ahh, no that was a legal target"

 

Yes shooters can turn down illegal targets as well as slow or fast pulls.

We still see all of the above with modern equipment and voice pulls although not very often.

I don't typically see these rules being abused but I would have no problem calling someone out who was abusing the rule.

 

It seems to me that most shooters are reluctant to call a failure to fire against a fellow squad shooter but if someone on the squad calls this then the other shooters on the squad will back the failure to fire caller up. A shooter who has the third failure to fire should call this on him/herself.

 

If,,,, we are talking about the current voice releases with Pat traps which I believe the majority of major ATA Shoots are using,,, how do you turn down a slow
or fast pull. Or, better yet how do you know it was a fast pull. The shooter calls pull, but is not quit into the gun, hesitates and by then the bird is out beyond
he brain leval to shoot. So the shooter has trained him or herself to not shoot and we call it a F-F. BUT, the bird was legal in all respects, just that the shooter
did not care for it. So, if this is not an lost bird or F-F, then it is Sandbagging......Waiting to get the bird that suits you...
Just another Dumd down rule that hurts the sport of trapshooting.
Birddog

 

When you are looking for faults in the system you can dissect any rule to your liking.

There are times when the wind or a loud caller on the next trap will set your speaker off. That shouldn't be ruled a f to F.

With that being said if the scorekeeper doesn't call a F to F then yell it out yourself. Sometimes the scorekeeper doesn't know or remember the ALL the rules.

 

It certainly isn't a F/F. If the shooter in question has his gun mounted, this happens before his call, it's a fast pull target. Fast or slow are "no target" with this added. If that shooter shoots at either, the results are scored regardless of outcome even if he didn't call that target out if he's at the ready shooting position.

As stated above, most won't take advantage at all yet some will and some do if they can get by with it! Not on our squad though. Cheating should be admonished by all shooters taking advantage of inexperienced scorekeepers!

HAP

 

They can get creative too. I watched a good shooter miss his 3rd target. He short shot it by a mile. He didn't say anything, but his buddies claimed the bird came out broke. I was standing right behind the 27 yard line. Didn't look broke to me. He re-shot that target and went on to run the 100. Frustrating to say the least.

 

No one answered the question.

I think if I was in the middle of calling for a bird and someone yells timeout I might be a little irritated.

 

It is very rare the the person scoring, usually a teenager or sometimes an adult will call a failure to fire and mark it on the score sheet. Sometimes a shooter will call a failure to fire and have it marked on the score sheet the odd time the shooter themselves, this does not happen as often as it should usually a shooter is left to carry on without being called which in my opinion is wrong. We can't leave it to the scorer we have to police ourselves.

 

What about when another shooter on the squad bumps the mike stand just as you are calling for the target??I have seen this many times when I am getting ready to mount the gun.I get a target that I have not called for.Is this called a failure to fire??Voice realice is not aful proof system..Wind also affects the system
It is way better than the hand pulled targets that we shot a lomg time ago..We were at the mercy of the pullers..Some super shooters had there own pullers that followed the squads to insure that they had there target on time..Some will agree with me and some won't...

 

To answer the OP question. No, wait for the rotation to come around to you, walk back to the scorer, deal with it, go back and shoot.

 

No that is not a Failure to Fire.

Just carry On.

 

Palos shooter, the better shooters of the hand pulled era learned to move with the target when they saw it. Does that mean it didn't bother some of them, of course not, any break in the sequence of call, see and shoot is enough to bother anyone. Same is true of the voice calls we use today too. The voice calls today aren't set perfectly either, at least not every one of them. The best shooters today rely on the same thing as the old timers did, see the target then make their move to smoke it.

HAP

 

Daro gets away with it all the time

 

Cubancigar2000 welcome aboard

 

I personally saw Daro Handy shooting and the ATA President, Tom Acklin, and 2 ATA Officials observing him, he still turned down targets, and there was no reaction from them, on that particular trap, It happened at Vandalia, west of the bleachers, do not remember if it was Ohio State Shoot or the Grand. He turned down several targets that looked ok to me.