Length of Pull

Saw this pic of Kim Rhode on FB today...congrats on her win! Let's talk about gun fit/LOP. By everything I've ever been told in my fledgling experience her gun appears way too long for her. Obviously not or she wouldn't be successful. So what is a rule of thumb for proper LOP?

 

There isn't one for women. Most have short necks and even shorter arms. For many you can't cut a stock short enough to look any different than Kim. It doesn't seem to matter as they beat most of us anyway.

 

Most stock fitters I have talked with like to see your nose about 1 1/2 to 2" from your thumb no matter how you mount the gun but I have seen some shooters that don't put there head down on the stock but it works for them

 

I like what I see. Her eye is at or about the middle of her adjustable comb. She looks like she is very comfortable with that stock. The males and females I have observed with a stock which is too long for them have had a very uncomfortable looking posture with the gun mounted.

Note how her head is erect and she is shooting a flat rib gun. I mention that due to a recent discussion concerning trap barrels in which rib height entered the discussion. Some may recall. I will assist others:

http://www.americantrapshooter.com/index.php?threads/trap-barrels.7324/

I do not believe in a “rule of thumb” for males or females as to LOP. There are other stock dimensions which influence the LOP for a particular human. If I had to compose a general guide; I would say it like this:

Not so short that the nose is in danger from the trigger hand thumb. Not so long as to cause the eye to look down the rib differently during the move to the extreme angles as compared to the shallow angles and straight away targets.

 

There is no rule of thumb. Whatever works for you. Like in trial and error. Personally, I like my face as close to the front of my adjustable comb as I can get without the tip of the comb caching the bottom of my glasses and knocking them sideways and my neck not stretched too far forward. So, I suspect about 1 1/2" from cheek to tip of comb Which is 14 3/8" LOP. I've tried through the years 14" to 15 1/2" LOP at one time or another via 1/8" increments. But, as I've gotten older and fatter I've reduced the LOP. Works for me.

 

I'm down to an even 14" with the TSK's and most others. A couple are 14.25 or so but that's about it. I honestly don't know how Kim Rhode shoots low gun International Skeet with that long a stock. I suppose she got used to looong stocks when she was a little kid and never got over it. If you look at other IS shooters you'll likely not see anyone else with such a long stock. Check out Vincent Hancock for way more the norm
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-d...lympic-skeet-shooter-and-vet-vincent-hancock/
http://www.vincent-hancock.com/#page-me
https://www.teamusa.org/usa-shooting/athletes/Vincent-Hancock

Much the same case for trap as you'll find veryveryvery few long LOP's

 

I agree; it's a personal thing. The "rule of thumb: 1 1/2 to 2" from nose to thumb" is a good place to START, but it can go either way from there. I personally prefer 2 to 2 1/2" myself, and others prefer much less. Kim knows what works for her.

 

Proper fit depends on more than LOP. I am 6' 4" with a fairly long neck and barrel chested. Arm sleeve length of about 38". I also have the perfect elderly trapshooters physique. (LOL) I have my stock fit so that I have an upright head, do not have to crawl into stock. I also mount gun so that pad sets on my chest rather than outboard near or on armpit. Most shooters I know that are tall require about a 15" LOP. With all that being said, my LOP is best for me at about 14.25". I attribute that to my barrel chest holding gun further forward when mounted combined with the upright head position. Soooo, LOP is not a standard measurement. Many factors affect it and is best determined by an excellent stock fitter.

Marc

 

I would only add that no fitter can "feel" the gun for you. Many shooters will try to fit themselves to a gun just because they're told that it's what they need in terms of "fit". If its not comfortable it will be difficult to shoot well. IMO at any rate.

 

I am of the understanding that LOP directly affects your hard angle shots. Too long or too short you come off the gun or simply cant turn far enough. The old 1 1/2 in to nose and grip to bent elbow measurements may get you close, but can you get to those hard angle shots and stay in the gun is critical.

 

That may be the case for long or too long but it is certainly not so for short or too short. Shorter LOP's def turn faster and easier.

 

There sure as heck is a "rule of thumb" for length of pull. It is as old as stock fitting for bespoke guns. It is simple. Bend your arm to 90 degrees and hold up your hand with your index finger extended. Measure the distance from the crook of the elbow to the last joint (you know, the one you pull the trigger with) on your index finger. Suprise! For the average man it is just about 14 1/8 to 14 5/8 inches. Thus the "standard" 14.5 inches on most factory mass produced guns.
Now, I ain't sayin' that is the end all and be all for length of pull. But it sure as heck is the starting point for all English and most other gun fitters.
You may want a longer length of pull for upright trapshooting and pre-mounted guns. You may want a bit shorter for guns used in hunting where you must mount when the bird is in the air and especially in winter when you wear thicker clothes.
You may just prefer a longer or shorter length of pull.
Generally, the shorter the LOP the quicker the gun swings and a longer LOP will slow the swing a bit. Remember, we are talking about 1/8 or 1/4 inch adjustments here.
But to say there is no "rule of thumb" for LOP is just not correct.
Jake

 

And the Rule of Thumb generally for international shooting really uses the thumb. The stock should be long enough that the thumb doesn't bang the nose. Longer than that is wasted wood

 

Unfortunately, that old rule of thumb has been debunked for a long time. It told you more about how long your arms are than how long the stock should be.
The newer, better rule is laid out by Semperfi909 above.

 

Your "newer and better rule" does not establish a base line for the LOP on a stock. It can only be done with the gun shouldered and ready to fire. Where your nose is and where your thumb are on the stock is mostly a question of how you hold the gun and whether you stretch your head forward or simply lay in on the stock. Also, has to do with the height of the comb and not just as measured as difference compared to the rib but the height the comb raises the gun to the face from the shoulder. So, if you prefer a Monte Carlo stock or some similar configuration with the butt of the gun dropped to raise the whole gun up to your face (as most trapshooter do), you may not creep forward on the gun as much as you would without so much drop at the heal. Your neck length is taken up by that drop at heal.
So, if this "old...debunked rule of thumb" is so dead, tell me a world class gun-fitter, you know, someone who works for Purdy or Holland and Holland or some other bespoke high end gun maker, who does not start with a forearm measurement as I described it to begin the process of establishing the length of pull?
How do you measure the thumb and the nose? What you are talking about with the thumb and nose is a measurement taken after the gun is mounted. It is fine tuning. And, of course that fine tuning is important and even critical. But how do you establish a starting point for LOP especially if you are fitting someone who is not a seasoned shooter who already knows what they prefer? Do you measure the length of their thumb and nose?
Why do you think that all mass producers of guns make there "standard" stocks 14 3/8" to 14 5/8" (Usually, 14.5") in length? Do you think they are measuring the length of thumbs and noses?
Oh, and by the way, did it ever occur to you that this rule which, in your words, tells "more about how long your arms are than how long the stock should be" might just be relevant since the stock is held against the body by the arms? And that length of arms vis a vis the body is a "fixed" measurement?
Jake

 

Perhaps your question(s) should be directed towards Semperfi909. He's already explained it better than I could.

 

My only comment would be Who Cares? Not me.
Anyone is perfectly free to engage in any action or combination of actions using whatever criteria that might seem suitable so that they might achieve whatever gunfit is desired. Whether or not those criteria have any universal applicability is of no consequence whatsoever.

have a nice day
Charlie

 

Another good example of Semperfi909 saying it far better than I could.