In the process of Installing a Red Dot Site on a Ljutic

I got 2 Holes drilled to locate the Modified Scope bases, I thought it would go on top of step rib, But found out it will go on the Lower Rib w/lots of room. I am waitng for the
8-40 Tap and the #23 drill coming Monday from Brownells, The picanniny rail they sent me will not work, it was too thick and heavy and too long for this job, I have prefitted the scope, will post pictures when done. I love doing projects like this, and ingenuity to make things work above the ordinary.

GB................................Dr.longshot

 

My kind of guy.

 

I read this right, you're putting a Red Dot scope on a Ljutic???? Why?

 

To make it shoot higher w/o cutting down the rib.

GB.....................DLS

 

Here is the completed Red Dot on my Ljutic

 

Good luck, Gary. I used one for a couple of years and it proved (to me, at least) that the people who claim you can't aim a shotgun just have never had one you can aim. Or better "one you have to aim."

However, it's far from easy or uncomplicated to get a reflex red dot sight to work on a shotgun for trapshooting. I rate my experience as a huge and expensive project with no favorable outcome other than learning a lot that I never could have guessed about at the outset.

I did break a 198/200 in singles with it (once!) but you can't imagine what I went through to get to work even part-time. The time and money involved could have been invested more profitably in working with an unmodified gun.

1. You are going to have to raise the comb of the stock by about as much as the center of the sight stands over the rib, and that's just to start with.

2. Then you are going to have to "sight it in." If the one you have works like the C-more sight I had, I doubt you, or anyone, will be able to do that. You doubt this now. Work with it in your garage and at a pattern board before you waste shells beating your head against the wall on a trapfield.

I hate to see you waste money and hope on a project which is not going to work for you.

You haven't asked for my advice but I will give it anyway. Stop now. It's not going to work for you.

Yours in Sport,

N1H1

 

That's the problem with non retired people -- They just don't understand -- This is what we worked our hole live for --to work on nonsensical projects that cost us a fortune, and twice the time what it would take anyone else to do --BUT WE ARE RETIRED --WE CAN AFFORD IT -- WE HAVE THE TIME --For me it is a hour round trip, three time a week to the range --That leaves a lot of time for what if's ?? -- in between times?? --Time to dream! -- And spend our money before our kids get it! -- { Personally I would have start with P-gun}

 

Neil Winston you know so very little about the Red Dot setup, I built one before and used it well, I did have to modify the comb, Fred Wenig liked it so much he Bought My Last One at the Missouri Fall Handicap, That one was a special design I made that mounted on the stock under the Comb and had an angle up in front of the comb then forward and had that special Multi- Sight picture one of which was just a circle, eye relief was much closer than this set-up, I have less than $50.00 in this set up, you see the screws & nuts, they will be gone when my Tap for 6-48 comes from Brownells
I will be working on a platform to bring the Red Dot eye relief closer for more Target Area, this one has 32mm which is larger than the one Fred Wenig Bought From me. Sighting in took 5 shots at 35 yards.

Been there and done it before, very sucessful. Another shooter liked it so well he is still using it. I saw a couple using them at the Las Vegas Fall handicap years ago using SKB Trap guns and both broke 50 straight from the 27 yard line. I watched them.

Gary Bryant..............................Dr.longshot

 

I changed the tap size from 8-40 to 6-48 because I already had those mounting screws.

GB............................DLS

 

As I said, I wish you good luck, Gary. And I'll quit advising you as you apparently desire.

I do have one question, though. That previous red-dot sight you used...was that a design that looks like a conventional rifle scope, a tube, or a reflex one like this new one of yours?

N1H1

 

Gary, N1H1 is wrong on all accounts. Shows just how ignorant he is about a raised red dot sighted system as you, me and a few others know all to well. I do not know about your red dot scope, but the ones I used whether mounted directly on gun or the ones I use now which are 13'' above bore and fired from hip. The key word is PARALLAX FREE. Something a high end red dot has. No need to raise comb 13'' lol. In fact I can move my head several inches anyway and still bust the target or fast flying Starlings. The red dot does not move, but stays in the same plane as the line of bore.
Coupled with a good laser bore sight. I can sight in POI in my living room. And only fire one shot at pattern board.
Does this guy N1H1 adjust his Halo before each post? I even have one mounted on my cross bow, because there are times I can not raise comb to face.

 

"You haven't asked for my advice but I will give it anyway. Stop now. It's not going to work for you."

Too bad you and the ata didn't apply this to the move to that place in IL.

Even though we DID offer our advise we were ignored.

Dysinger was right!

 

It was similar.

 

So it was a reflex sight like the CP Tactical you now are mounting on your Ljutic? I ask because I made several attempts to mount various large-diameter Tasco sights on my Beretta 303 and they failed almost immediately and that's what made me try the C-more models which I first saw at the Shotshow in the early 2000a.

NiH1

 

I saw a number of 1X widefield scopes mounted on Ljutic Spacegun's when they first came out. It's not something new. Does it work? Only you'll know for sure.

 

I saw Al with one, an apparent "Selka," at the Grand late in his life, Bama. But the one I saw was a tube, not a reflex sight, and they are child's play to get working.

I may try to dig mine out of the back of a closet, replace the batteries if I still have any, and try to remember just what it was that, in the end, made me bend the barrels on on my Beretta 303 to get it to shoot where I wanted! Really.

I can't wait to hear how rookieshooter did it!

N1H1

 

Joe's project was interesting and I advised him at the start that he would eventually give up on it for mechanical reasons (dead batteries, falling apart, falling off, POI problems) and he did, but not before breaking 100x100 with it at singles with steel shot which vindicates the program from a shooting standpoint.

He was long-stalled by the POI problem but together we were able to straighten that out at least to his satisfaction (but not entirely to mine.) It's just that I see way too much self-delusion at a pattern board to trust much that I didn't see with my own eyes.

The sight convinced him of the same truths that mine did me.

1. You can aim a shotgun and do very well, at least at singles. There is a problem at handicap - it's just a beat or two slow - and that disqualifies it for long yardage, in my opinion. I do, however, remember a lady of a certain age who shot a Weaver 1x scope at several Spring Grands from the 24 and did very well, over and over again.

2. You need (and use, even if you are not consciously aware of it) something to aim with ( or "know where you are pointing," if you prefer.) When the light goes out in a reflex scope you are totally lost and it happens often, and unpredictably, enough to eventually force you to go back to no red dot but you will miss it for a long time.

3. Experience with a reflex scope will relieve you of any fear about aiming, a technique which will get you at least into A class and keep you there if that's the way you like to shoot shotguns.

N1H1

 

Ljutic also employed the open triangle site on the Spacegun. I had one. The theory being; Put the target inside the triangle and pull the trigger. Much like a Balford (sp?) gun from WWII used on attacking aircraft. It also worked great on the sixteen, but not so good on the 27. I sold the gun and bought a Mono. Still have it, but shoot a Dynokic now. As you see, I'm a Ljutic guy.

 

If you think back on that Spacegun of yours, Bama, I think you will recall that though the sight was termed "Geometrically Triangular" and was, in fact, a triangle, it was disposed parallel to the bore-axis, not perpendicular to it, and so all you saw was a tall, wide post, not a triangle at all.

I'll try to look at one in old Shooting Trap magazines to refresh my memory, which is not what it once was...

If I've got it wrong, I offer my apology here.

N1H1

 

Here's what you must be talking about, Bama, but it's not the one I am thinking about.



Of course, I've never seen one like this - Who has? - and may have mixed up what I thought I saw in the magazine.

N1H1

 

...I couldn't find any Ljutic ads with this kind of Spacegun, but did see to my surprise that the guns themselves date from the early 1980s. As I look at that picture of the gun with the triangle, I think I see a bead on the muzzle-end one and suspect that with the mid-triangle what we are looking at is a conventional 2-bead setup with no rib.

It sure was fun looking though old Shooting Trap and Shotgun Sports issues, though. Who could forget Shoot-Boots, the Baker Big Bore, Eclipse shells, and an article touting target setting by radar which attributed flight-differences to humidity? A lot of good stuff as well - some extremely straight-from-the-shoulder advice from Dan and Frank for example. It's going to be a good winter; I have hundreds of issues of these and others to page through and will face long, cold nights to encourage me to stay in.

N1H1

 

I finally got the mount that I needed, this one is almost where I want it, Eye Relief is good. Will try and shoot it this week and look at the Pattern at 35 yards

 

Gary, that's never, ever, going to work.

1. Why is the sight pointed down as it appears to be?

2. How are you going to locate your head when it will have to float it about an inch above where your jaw locks into the stock?

3. Yes, I see that moving it so far back will increase the apparent field of view, but it also seems to support the sight at only one end when it seems to be designed for two-point lockup. OK, for games that might work since you just shoot a couple of shots a night. But what about tomorrow night, next week? It'll fall

1. Off or

2. Apart.

The C-more I had was, in the end, not very tough and the so-called mount, worse. But mine was on a 303 which vibrates like the devil. I'll try to post a picture of what I had to do to keep it from coming loose. The contrast between what I had to do and your setup will be clear.

and last: What makes you think it will shoot where the red dot says it will?

Maybe rookieshooter will explain how to set this up in your living room, but I am beginning to suspect he was just typing a shaggy-dog story, not describing anything he really knew anything about at all. He must be very short, mustn't he? It's only 13 inches from his hips to his eye and that's a lot less than most I see at the club. Except dachshunds, that is.

N1H1

 

Gary, here's how much I had to raise my stock to center the sight: You will not need as much, but you will need 3/4 inch at least.



Here's what I had to do to keep it from changing its point-of-impact from shot to shot:



Believe me, every one of those screws was required. Yes, it is a 303 and semi autos tingle when shot, but everything vibrates and will, eventually, find a way to fall off or fall apart. As you can see, this was no weekend project for me- I spent years on it - and still, in the end, I had to abandon it as much as I liked it.

N1H1

 

NH1H1: You used the wrong type of mount. Should have been a Picaninny Rail, about 4 inches long and drilled and Tapped into the top of the reciever, I milled off the curvature so it was flat. that makes it very RIGID, & Tough.

I will have an adj comb made by Dave Berlet and 2 sets of pins, one set for the Red Dot, and a set to use over the Rib Blade Site
when I take off the Red Dot

GB................................DLS

 

Yes, I did use the wrong type of mount. It looked solid enough but wasn't. But remember, you haven't yet found out how well your mount will work.

Really, everything you show us sounds like you are doing a very good job at this.

Please come back and tell us how it works out.

N1N1

 

Yes he sure did use the wrong mount. After I drilled and tapped my picatinny I used Lok tite Blue. This is the same stuff I used on my red dot scope that I used on my other Perazzi I had in the late 70's or early 80's, including my 458 Win mag topped with a Swavorski scope. Never had any fastners vibrate off.
On my thread I'll post on how I adjusted POI with out firing a shot. Works great. In fact I've done this in a parking lot at a gun club. No need hi jacking your thread. Can't type long, fingers hurt and left hand is useless.

 

How much does your red dot weigh? Both mine are less then 1 ounce each.

 

Who needs a sight on a shotgun you dont aim a shotgun you point and shoot.

 

You must be a Newbie to trapshooting and have not followed Trapshooting trends, this has been going on w/RED DOT sights on trap guns sine 1980, read up and google before you post, to be informed.

GB...........................DLS

 

Actually, the picture you've shown is the wrong one (triangle). The triangular sight I had was infact a three bar tringle about 2.5" to a side and it was adjustable side to side and up and down. There was no secondary sight to the rear. I've never seen another one like it. The one you showed is the same one I had on my second Spacegun. Which I replaced with an adjustable short rib.

 

Here's a question. Instead of a Red Dot, would a Ghost Ring rear sight work? The only problem might be getting a high shooting POIor large field of view. Both problems could be solved I guess. Has anyone tried this?

 

I never weighed, but Picanniny Rail and Red Dot is very light, My stock is out for the adj Comb to Dave Berlet my 2 sets of pins are for with RD and w/o RD

GB.............................DLS

 

I used my Laser Shell for the projection, but it was not perfectly centered, I took a 20 ga shell and knocked out the primer, cut plastic off, the laser did not project through the 20 ga Hull when Inserted in the Bbl, but I will be on the paper, I wish they made a Precision Shell Laser that is centered.

GB.......................DLS

 

What distance are you using to do this, Gary?

Do you plan to retest at a pattern board just to double-check?

N1H1

 

Yep

 

Gary, my laser is made by ''SIGHT MARK'' and is dead drop centered. To test it I place gun on table with laser on, then rotate laser north, east south and west and beam is still centerd on target. Maybe i just got lucky.
To adjust the red dot for L and R with out firing a shot, i again place gun on table with laser on. Laser is pointed to the vertical edge part of a door jamb with laser dot split in half on the edge. Next I adjust red dot on the same edge so it is also centered on edge. Now the pattern if i was to fire gun on paper would be perfect for right to left. Now to do the elevation, I again place gun on flat surface with laser dot on and pointed at a flat surface 35 yards away. I do this late evening so I can see laser dot. Next I look thru scope and adjust red dot to place dot on the laser dot for a 50/50 pattern or below laser dot on how high i want it to shoot. Now the gun is perfectly patterned without ever firing a shot.
When shooting on paper it now shoots where the red dot is or higher if i want.
Next I establish a bench mark. I insert laser and point to a surface 10 yards away and measure how high red dot is above laser dot. The flat surface will have a ruler or someone will hold ruler. This way i can check to make sure every thing is still perfect, again without firing a shot.
When shooting from hip, all i have to do is to make sure the post is vertical.

 

The fun part is shooting at all kinds of distances so brain can get used to it so i can make an instictive move to the target without even thinking about it...it now becomes very easy.

 

Rookie my Shotgun Laser is not centered, I took a 20 Gauge shell, cut off the plastic and knocked out the primer, and the lase does not go through hole of 20 ga hull, does your laser go through a 20 ga brass w/primer knocked out?

My stock is at Dave Berlet getting comb cut & 2 sets of pins

GB.....................DLS

 

I rotated the laser shell in chamber and it was not stable, 34" and going through a .705 is a lot of error, so I just centered it over the front bead.

GB............................DLS

 

Rookie & N1H1: My RD Sight weighs 4.5 ounces according to specs, the 7 + inch Picanninny weighs about 3 ozs so I have about 7.5 Ozs Max.

GB...........................DLS

 

Wish I had read your post first, cause i just got back from Wright Pat AFB trap club and i could have picked up some or one spent 20 ga shell. Back in the day, i would do the 20 ga thing in the muzzel with a 12 ga empty shell with primer knocked out in the breech and look thru the 12 ga hole to check out the concentric rings to see if barrel was bent. Cool what you'll see as long as barrel is clean.
All i know is mine will dead center the pattern where laser is at 35 yds if i put red dot scope on X or set to shoot pattern higher like 15 '' higher then X.

 

May shoot at target today or in few days at 100+ yards to check out pattern dia and drop. Enter the gravity, time/flight, air resistance thing that gives the signature parabolic curve flight thing. Done this before looking down rib.
Yes i do shoot at clays this far. Might just post pics on my thread.

 

I shoot very few at 100 yards, I normally don't let them get that far, Rookie Shooter do you live here in Ohio, I live in Athens, Ohio
I keep the 12 ga and 20 ga for the very same thing, to look at rings to see if Bbl is Straight, I check every Bbl, even my new guns, tell me what area you are close to, maybe we could meet, Will be getting my stock back in a few days from Dave Berlet, He does excellent work bar none. Call me at 614-403-6786.

Gary Bryant...........................Dr.longshot

 

I also have a bore Mic to check Bbls & Choke, Choke lengths, CG Have the best chokes on the Market.

GB...........................DLS

 

Will do. I'm in West Milton, Ohio about 10 miles NW, from Vandallia and close Tipp city.
Just had free seniors breakfast this morning with some guys leaving to the Fall handicap in MO wish i was in better health cause I'd be going also. Too bad your so far, about 3 hours cause I got pattern board. Or if in area, come on over.

 

Rookieshooter: TY for offer

GB...........................DLS

 

I KNOW IT WILL WORK everything I have designed WORKED

Why don't you put on the correct one? Or send me the gun and I will install it, Site it in at your POI and send it back to you for $50.00 plus shipping

GB.............................DLS

 

It's a fair and kind offer, Gary, but I'll pass, A fiber-optic sight helps me hit about as many birds as I am able to hit anyway and I never have to worry that it will fail me more often than I fail it.

I sincerely thank you.

N!H1

 

OK

GB.......................DLS

 

Rookie Shooter I got my Stock Back from Dave Berlet, and here is how it looks presently, I have several different Options that Dave gave me, I am going to try it as I presently have it set up, w/the spacers to center my site picture.

GB.............................DLS

 

Nice work indeed..

 

Rookie Shooter: The adj Comb is paralell to the rib, the gun is sloped down due the way it is sitting on my walker for the photo.

GB...............................DLS

 

Rookie Shooter, I patterned my Ljutic Red Dot site, i used the red dot at my estimated POI which is 100% high at 35 yards
I only fired ONE SHOT and it shoots exactly where I wanted it to shoot, I took a picture of the pattern I just shot, N1H1 can DROOL OVER THIS PATTERN from my Ljutic Std Factory 34"Bbl, .740 Bore, .705 choke = .035 full choke.

What do you thinmk Rookie Shootetr?

 

Rookie: It was hotter than Hell out there today, I shot from the Shade, Just approximated my POI and it was Absolutely Perfect, One shot proved it, now I know why N1H1 commented to you and I, It will never work. He He He KMRA NW.
The pattern Max Measurement 21 Inches @ 35 yards. Shell 1200 fps # 7 1/2 Hard Shot 1 1/8th oz w/18grs PROMO.

 

Rookie: The reason for the wood over those long pins was stability, Dave said, to keep the long pins breaking out the dide of the Base Plates, I totally agree, he made 2 of the wood bases one for each set of long Pins, the spacers brings my site pic in to the exact center of the Red Dot CP 33mm wide site..

GB....................................DLS

 

That's a KICK ASS pattern!

 

Dr. -- Have been fallowing your post for a month now . -- Got me interested in trying it my self. -- From what I read the mount is a key part of your set up -. My Question is would the Remington factory picanniny scope mount my father in law uses on his 870 slug gun work as a good mount on my old 870 trap with a adjustable comb? Sure works for his scope. --Second question have been checking out red dot sights ? --prices run from $19 to several hundred dollars?. What do you need to hold up to a shotgun recoil? Rookieshooter mentioned Parallax sight? Is this a key factor to get? Just trying to save a few step on my project --Thanks for any help

 

If your picanny sight is screwed into the top of your reciever it is the best, using the factory PINS is an NO NO, not stable enough, The 30mm wide RED DOT by CP for around $26.00 from Walmart is the one I Bought, it was the largest Viewer @ 33mm, The top mount Picanny Rail about 2 1/2 inches long to 6 inches long using 4 6/48 scope mount screws makes the RED DOT really secure. I pot the red dot directly in line with the beads for perfect Vertical, I estimated my POI at 100% and it was perfect only needed 1 shot, I was lucky, I guess, I used the RED Dot sight picture. I don't know what POI you like? if you like dead on, put your RED DOT on the target., I used the Mossberg Picanny rail w/4 6/48 screws. I milled off the Curved base to make it Flat, as my Ljutic Stepped rib, on the RECIEVER is where I placed, You can see it in my latest Pictures w/Dave Berlet's special WOOD over the tall pins for stability, You want your eye exactly in the center of the Prism, when you look through it you should be able to see your factory beads. Center Point Optical #70301 is what i bought.

GB............................DLS I was lucky to find a HDW STORE w/a tap and #drill bit.

 

rrisum: You saw my pattern, it was shot at 35 yards, I measured it and posted it on the thread. I used to shoot a lot faster, I will say a lot faster than your average shooter, Quite a ways before target peaks. I draw a 4 " inch solid circle and hold the Dot on the bottom edge of the circle, Most will hold in the center of the circle. If you look in front of the sight there is a Blade Sight I made, with a groove like a rifle sight, that sight shoots the same place as the RED DOT site, I have 2 sets of pins made incase I remove the red dot sight, My comb is about 3"inches Higher+ the Plastic washers to tune it in.

GB............................DLS

 

The wider the PRISM is, what you want to make target recognition faster, and easier w/o having to search for the target,
you see it a lot quicker. Walmart.com on line is where I got it, AMAZON has them too. The walmart stores do not have that style, some have the Round RED DOT, those are about 30mm. Mine has 4 site pics, and can be Red Or Green. The one I made years ago that I sold Fred Wenig, at the Missouri Fall Hdcp, had a CIRCLE, and 4 other site pics. If you got target in The Circle it was SMOKE, I liked that design as it was custom made out of Aluminum, mounted on the Stock Under the Comb, screwed into the stock, very Rigid like a LAZY Z Backwards, my design made on a 1/2 x 3/8ths Hard Aluminum Plate about 4 inches x 10 inches X 1/2"inch thick, and it was laser cut, and Drilled.

GB............................DLS

 

Longshot, it's always a problem to analyze your patterns because we can't tell how big anything is. But now you have given us a scale.

" I draw a 4 " inch solid circle and hold the Dot on the bottom edge of the circle, Most will hold in the center of the circle."

Can I take that size of the circle as 4 inches as accurate or just a guess? If it's a guess, about how big could it be, as a maximum? How big could it be as a minimum?

Thanks,

N1H1

 

rrisum, you asked about ''parallax''. First off forgive my short answer, just too hard to type with my bad hands since my spinal cord injury, using the one finger thing. Getting better each day. Your situation would probably not need a a parallax free optic due to the fact that you would probably just raise the comb as the good Dr did. Now me 6' when standing but i need to be in chair when shooting. The stock is cradled in a pouch which is near hip, this puts my Burris quick fire around 13'' above barrel. I have two steel plates that run down the front and rear of Cervical spinal cord, thus I do not want any part of stock near my face, as of yet. Enter the amazing Parallax thing. Now the 7 mm dot will stay on the same axis as the barrel no matter if i raise my head or move from side to side. Does not change POI even if i move head while shooting.
I can put either guns on table, insert laser bore sight, turn on red dot to cover laser sight at 35 yards and pattern if i shot would be 50/50. Or 6.5'' low at 7.5'' yards or conversely 6.5'' high at 42.5 yards. Not counting gravity. The amazing thing is when gun is stationary and i move head around, the red dot does not move from the laser beam (axis)or other words, the pattern is still on target. I have proved this many many times while shooting at my own range. From 15 feet to 100 + yards.
So in fact you could shoot without raising comb if you had a Parallax free optic if need be, but might feel a little weird at first.
So for me there is no concern of keeping head on stock, LOP, drop at heel and so on.
Now if i ever get well and can lift gun to shoulder, i have a never used Stock lock stock for my Perazzi that i got just before my 2 neck surgeries.
One other thing, don't get caught up in all this fancy crap i just said or some other guy might say, just break the damn target

 

As far as that pattern Dr LS posted, if one could point every target perfect, that pattern would equate 400 x 400 HAA or 1000x1000 HOA scores. Regardless if the 4'' circle was 4.9'' or infinitesimally smaller. Use some common sense N1N2.

 

A Mossberg set up with a red dot for the trap range. Given the downside of using a big honking and relatively heavy industrial strength Aimpoint M-4 optic, my feasability study shows there are no real issues for singles if you can aim at a moving target. Some shooters can aim and some can't. Both eyes open.

Setting up POA & POI for singles was simply a matter of using the same POA/POI at approximately 15 yards that other
dependably shooting trap guns in the safe use. In my case, no matter the stock or rib configuration or barrel length in use, a POI on paper "about" 4 inches above the POA at roughly 15 yards, correspondingly results in centered dead clays from the 16 yd line. Full choke in use. If the optic has accurate and repeatable windage and elevation dials, it's an easy matter to adjust the POI on paper at any distance.

This setup uses a picatinny rail screwed to the factory drilled Mossberg receiver to accommodate the intregral Aimpoint mount which is designed primarily for military rifle use. The comb height pictured in this case works reasonably well. A bit higher would optimally line up my eyeball with the ocular but I find that unlike a non red dot trap gun in which a consistent stock to face placement is recommended, it is ok to shoot using a red dot with your head up, on the stock, completely off the stock, or any combination thereof.

Ideally, a low profile optic and mounting system as can now be found as a factory option on pistols (photo insert) would make for perhaps the best trapgun solution. The comb height would be reasonable, provide a secure and universal mount, solid and reliable adjustments, almost indestructible optic. Not inexpensive.

Another aspect involves barrel length. Given your ability to adjust to gun balance, barrel length with the use of a reddot optic becomes a moot factor if your favorite choke provides an acceptable pattern for the target distance. For singles, a full choke 24" Mossberg smokes as well as 32 inches of Model 12.

 

The distance was 34 yards 2 feet and 11/16ths inches, to be precise, the pellet below the cirlcle was a flyer, I did not count it.
The choke was.034999998, to be precise, The target height was 47.99997462 inches high, same level as my shoulder was off the rest at 47.88759543inches, wind was .099964389 mph out of the south west there were pellet variations of.00000000999537849, there was some antimony variations of .0000000000000105%, I could not find any better Magnum shot any harder, Barrell harmonics, were negligible, as the Bbl was chryogenically treated to hold down fluctuations of POI
OFF Sandbags filled with WHITE SAND USED IN PRECISION GLASS MAKING., JUST PRYOR to shot placement the temperature was 89.0001045 degrees w/some minor fluctuations in cloud passings over the sun. The time was 1:29000815 pm, Humidity was 89.875739 %, the date was Sun OCTOBER 14th, there was some gusts from a Tandem UPS double trailer truck, followed by a Yellow truck, with unknown cargo. I did not take in to consideration of the Southwest Airline @
32,385 feet @575.98379 mph, An American Airlines flight was heading paralell in the opposite direction at standard 5 mile seperation, but he had a rich vapor trail, compared to the Southwest Airliner with 4 Pratt and Whitney ultra effecient engines but, they were 5Db quieter. That was as close as I could get the test reference parameters. My target circle was 3.7998432 inches in diameter w/slight Blue Sharpie circle deviations. I roughed in the shot weight at 492.875 grs Mag hard shot, that I loaded w/Black Diamond Poilished Shot, the Good Stuff, that I got from Las Vegas. I was a bit heavy on the shot.

GB..............................DLS

 

Here's the thing, Longshot. I'm trying to make sense of what the pattern-analysis program Shotgun-Insight is telling me about the pattern you posted. I just want to be sure that the big dot at in the lower part really is four inches and if not, how big it might be. I should think it was in your best interests to have your pattern evaluated correctly rather than incorrectly.

N1H1

 

I evaluate MY OWN PATTERNS, have been for years, I know what I want and, and where I want it. My shooting style is a lot different than yours. My reloads are less than 10,000 psi. I have been shooting patterns 18" to 24"inches for years, been sucessful with it, and have done a lot of testing over the years, This dog is not willing or wanting your evaluations, go Graph somewhere else, fou feed it garbage, you get garbage, I thoughj you would take a hint on the above post.

GB....................................DLS

 

Where did I state 737's, I was being sarcastic in the post.

GB................................DLS

 

No sarcasm intended but since you asked,

Southwest operates only the Boeing 737 which as we all know has 2 engines.

I noticed in your mounting pictures the 4 screws attaching the mount to the rib. There are simpler options for rib attachment which also have a lower profile.

 

WHEN YOU HAVE HAD ENOUGH, of what you know is the right thing, and you have the proof of it, that is when you do the ignore thing.

 

The big difference in patterns is that EXTRA 5 yards, if you took patterns sheets and aligned them up at 30-35-40 Yards and fired shells through them you would see the CONE EFFECT, to hold MOMENTEM use #6s, as 7.5s would change in being slowed down through the paper. if only we could see the cone effect using high speed camera's at 25-30-35-40 yards shooting from the side. On one shot traveling through to the 40 yards.

GB...............................DLS

 

I remember when a man said that when a horse runs he has all 4 feet off the ground, he made a bet on it, and he set up several cameras and caught frames on the film showing all 4 of the horses hoofs were off the ground.

Do you remember the bet, where he said he could drive a GOLF BALL over a mile? He did it. Now clue me in on how he did it?

 

Good luck with the red dot.

 

He drove the golf ball off the rim of the Grand Canyon where it is over 1 mile deep

Ed Yanchok

 

He did it on a Frozen Lake that had no snow, and a Glassy Surface, no tail wind.

GB.............................DLS

 

Smithy, I have a lot more experience patterning than others here. And I mean real patterning - ten patterns, then counting pellets and analyzing the results . It is, after all, the only way to see how patterns work.I've done thousands of them

The way they work is that pattern percentage tells you all there is to know about some gun/ammo combination. If you know the pattern percentage which a combination produces, you know how much (on the average) the patterns spread and how hot (on the average) in the center they are. Full choke patterns at 40 yards with the best ammo in nice weather in the Midwest will produce a 75% diameter of 27-28 inches and they will be twice as dense, on a pellets-per-square inch basis, in the inner 20-inch circle as in the outer 20" to 30" ring. There are no "even" shotgun patterns.

You ask about my Presidential gun. Its performance is detailed in the three graphs in message 84 as "Perazzi MX-2000." It shoots no differently than other good guns with 0.040" chokes. Specifically, it shoots no better than similar guns with old-fashioned dimensions, that is 0.724" bores. 2 3/4" chambers and has a 0.040" choke which is tighter than the now-supplied more open chokes still called "full."

N1H1

 

NOPE! No where did I imply you got one! Never met you either.

Who would have thunk someone as narcissistic, and knowing so much about the bylaws, would take a Perazzi MX-2000, from a non profit organization that prohibited such actions? Unless of course you just didn't give a damn.

But....you can tell me in your own words, and we know you have many. Why you would ignor the bylaws? You can tell us in your words why you turned your back and must have OK'd the same of some before you.

Was it just your turn to put the hand in the cookie jar? Did you think no one would care?

And why haven't you returned the gun?

 

Absolutely nothing was removed except Jayk's false statement as well. I will warn you that saying something that was removed when nothing was removed will get you a vacation.....joe[/QUOTE]


Bottom of post #67:

Moderator, At the bottom of post 67 there was attached a photo of a black stocked Mossberg pump receiver including a red dot sight. The photo was posted using a URL from the Google Photos website. For a few hours at least, the photo was visible on my gear. Checking the thread the following day, I found the picture no longer visible and replaced with the blue framed question mark. Further attempts to post a graphic supporting standard pattern sizes to be expected at various yardages have been unsuccessful as a url or jpg.

Do I need a certain amount of posts before submitting graphics or pictures is allowed?

 

Another test:

 

Post 96 & 97 contain graphics which at this moment appear to have uploaded without issue. 20:50

 

Too summarize, Smithy, you can't have a high-percentage pattern, the kind a good long-yardage handicap shooter needs, which is either widely-spread or even. All are, when considering 10 patterns, small (75% diameters of 27-28 inches) and hot centered (twice as dense in the inner 20" circle and in the outer 20"-to-30" ring.)

There are no exceptions known to me. And, as I said, I have shot and analyzed thousands of them.

Right now my days are occupied with testing the 14 kinds of shells stocked by the shell house at the Grand in 2018. That's another 140 patterns and is no minor task, especially since I have to find several days of similar temperature and light wind and they don't come up all that often in Minnesota in October and November. I do that every year and sometimes find a surprise or two, but generally I just get more data showing that American premium shells are a good deal better for long-yardage handicap than anything else. Or than my reloads, no matter how hard I try.

N1H1

 

Thanks Joe for the explanation concerning advertisements & spam. New poster here and it never occurred to me that the photo might be considered as such.

For the record, the depicted Mossberg, much like Dr. Longshot's experiment, is my personal red dot testbed and was originally posted along with the comments as an example of a rock solid mounting system. The photo was taken with an iPhone and combined on my computer with the inset pistol mounted reflex sight as an example of what also would likely be the best solution for a low mounted shotgun optic. The intention was only to contribute to the thread.

Since one of the apparent desired methods used by this website to post graphics through the above tool bar is by URL from another website, I also did not consider that photos from a personal photo storage site on Google would be an issue.

Lesson learned.

Not a big deal....we are attacked on a daily basis by those that hate the site and common spammers. Often there are what we call balloon virus' in the graphics. Not my job to know the tech issues. Got a good tech team...mods

 

Sheesh N1H1
At least have Bat come on here and give us the answers. Do you need me to repost?

 

Oh, Smithy, you, and the several - approaching many* - people who are reading this, hopefully because they are genuinely interested in shotgun performance, how to measure it, and how to tell what makes sense, what doesn't, will get their information as time passes.

There may be some who are dying to see if you are going to shake a response from me, but they might as well bail now. I ask them: What the devil makes people who have just learned to use their thumbs on a keyboard think they can demand testimony from anyone? Would they themselves be stupid enough to engage some anonymous wraith who seems to have a chip on her shoulder for the world in any sort of conversation? I'm not. So if that's why you are here, readers, go find an RC-dominated thread - there'll be action enough there for you for sure!

N1H1

*Look! We already have 2/3 as many views as the Merlo thread which had, it turns out, about as much to it as the Flyer-like Championship Series did, and this poor thread, saddled with a name that does not exactly grab you, is "trending!"

Founding members my not believe it, but there really is world of sportspersons who wandered by chance in here because they are interested in trapshooting. And it's time this website began to give them what they want and that's what I am trying to do.

 

Damn ..... Damn ..... Damn .....

Silly me ..... I have spent the past 4 decades shooting "Trap" ..... thinking it is/was shooting a moving shotgun at a moving clay target at different angles outside in ALL weather conditions .....

Little did I know bench-resting a shotgun, on the nicest of days, and shooting at a 2-D sheet of paper at ????? distance, then playing connect the dots with crayons, was "Trapshooting" .....

 

N1H1,
Back to the subject of 75% diameter patterns. Without the use of the Insight program, I’m thinking that on a 25 yd indoor range the following procedure should work well enough for my goal of comparing the pattern size of different barrels.

1. With all of the shot on paper present and counted, the 75% number is determined. Easy enough to do with a digital photo and physically counted on a monitor in an graphics program.

2. Eyeball the center of the pattern on screen and tally up 75% of the center mass.

3. Measure the diameter of the resulting central 75% mass using the graphics program, with all patterns of course measured at the same scale.

4. Rinse and repeat a total of 20-25 patterns for each barrel using the averaged results of each as a reasonable level of comparison that could be extrapolated to trap yardage distances. Any significant differences between barrels of significant difference in length should be observable.

The same AA trap loads to be used for all targets. Likely 7 1/2’s with the fewest holes to count.

With 5 decades of shooting all sorts of stuff this should keep me busy until they hand me a box of crayons.

 

There you have it students. Straight from N1H1 himself! You guys are toooo damn stupid too deserve an answer. Understanding why he and other ATA cronies took Perazzi and K80 combos against the bylaws is above your IQ.

Like N1H1 says.....who have just learned to use their thumbs on a keyboard.

So why listen to this pattern BS? Got thumbs?

Dysinger alert!

 

I got a question for n1.

WERE ALL THE SHELLS YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY GOING TO USE TO SHOOT THOSE 140 PATERNS AS FREE AS THE GUN YOU TOOK or just some of them?

Dysinger was right!

 

WOW! It only took me 32 seconds to type the above question.

I didn't use my thumbs, I used the MIDDLE FINGER of both hands.

 

Joe, you wrote:

"And yet the OP was attacked."

I don't know about others, but I'm sure if you look at my early posts in this thread, numbers 6, 18, 24, and 25, I did anything but attack the OP.

I have years of experience and tens of thousands of targets with a set-up similar to what I see introduced here and I had hoped to save the OP a lot of effort and frustration with a sighting system I had spent a huge amount of time and money on what I eventually had to give up for POI and reliability problems.

The first response I got from the OP was (edited for names) was "N1H1 you know so very little about the Red Dot setup," So much for attacks, it seems to me.

The OP then went on to apparently ridicule the way I analyze patterns in post 68 when all had done was try to make sure that his description of the inner black circle as "4 inches" was about right so I could accurately scale his pattern.

Readers here who are interested in the scientific aspect os trapshooting should not be left with the impression one gets from post 68 that it does not work or isn't worth doing or that it gives the wrong answers or whatever the point of that post was (other than attack me, of course.}

Since then I've filled readers in on the scientific understanding of patterns, how they work, and the degree to which the three statistics, pattern percentage, pattern spread, and pattern evenness are all locked together. Maybe some of those readers are thinking of buying choke tubes or even guns whose advertising claims to disassociate one from the other, "wider, more even, tighter patterns" and will now not waste money buying the impossible. Or not, as that table advises, sell his old-fashioned gun to get a newest-design one thinking it will perform better, pattern-wise, which it is very unlikely to do based on my and Dr. A.I.'s testing.

I think I am offering a valuable insight into shotgun performance that American Trapshooter members here are unlikely to get with such brevity and clarity (to say nothing of accuracy and evidentiary data) anywhere else in print or on the internet. I appreciate being able to present it to your readers here.

N1H1

 

Damn, now that's funny.

 

Joe, when I wrote "and this poor thread, saddled with a name that does not exactly grab you, is "trending!" I was not thinking of the OP when I wrote that. Really. After all, I think many of us do read his posts every time we see them. I certainly do.

Were I to be able to edit that post, I would write

"and this poor thread, saddled with a title that does not exactly grab you, is "trending!"

I regret the misimpression I have given by my poor choice of words.

N1H1

 

And you seem to want to use that to start posting "your research", because YOU KNOW people would ignore a thread started by "N1H1".

 

I will paraphrase what one of the great minds of science once said, ''The more you know about the distribution of pellets on a stationary paper target, the less you know about hitting a moving object, and the more you know about hitting a moving object the less you know about hitting a still paper target.
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

 

I understand the discussion on pattern density, isn't it to my advantage to have a long shot string. If I over lead the target, I still have a chance of breaking it. Is there a way to measure length of the shot string? Patterns seem to be 2 dimensional, where as the shot string is 3 dimensional.

 

The shot string is relatively short and the shot mass is going so fast compared to the moving clay (not a still paper target) it's past the target in a blink of an eye. There was a guy who towed a pattern board behind a car about the speed of a clay and shot at it perpendicular. Not long at all.
Just make a mental image each time you bust the target very well from post 1 or 5 on an extreme angle. Your mind will save the barrel to clay picture.
One other thing, before taking advice as Gospel, see what the guy who's giving the advice has accomplished at major shoots has done.