How Do You Learn To Float A Target Picture?

This year I have changed guns. The Ljuctic (spec. is showing 60-40) has always has been known to shoot higher than a lot of other manufactures guns. I have been with practicing my wall chart and noticed that the shot picture that we normally shoot is too high. In most cases its either at 7-8 o'clock for left angles and 3-4 o'clock for righties. If I go and try to shoot targets like the chart, I either chip a lot of targets or shoot over them. But if I get under the target, I ball smoke them. I was shooting a Golden Clays that shot very flat, and that worked with the chart. How do you practice gap shooting the targets and stay consistent? I love the gun and want to be competitive (ATA avg. 94.5). The stock is beautiful and the only adjustment is the recoil pad. So I need some advise. I started trying to practice by shooting under the targets on the wall chart. But I don't have time to think about trying to float the target at the "moment of truth". I know a lot you guys have went thru the same thing that I'm trying to accomplish. I shoot with both eyes open and if you ask me where I shoot the bird now, I couldn't answer. Everything is subconscious. I point the gun and the bird disappears. Thanks for all the advise. Flinch King

 

1st do you ride your targets to the peak? If so you need to maybe float the target, If you get on the target and it is still rising, just go into the target and shoot, that is my style of shooting, it is different shooting a real target, than shooting on a wall chart, you need to shoot some 16 yard targets for practice, what sight picture do you have when you smoke the target, that is the one you want.

 

Thanks Dr. L,
I would say that I do go to the target very quick. Maybe too quick. I have a hard time holding until the target crosses the top of the barrel without moving the gun. I have found that if I let the target get to the top of the arch that I have a better picture of the "floating" affect. As far as the sight picture, I can't really say. I don't see the gun, just the bird and if everything goes right it disappears. That's where I'm having trouble because of how high the gun shoots. If I can get the right sight picture in my mind, then the problem is solved. And I know I'm not alone as far as not seeing the sight picture. I set up at New Port one night and there were several shooters that all shoot the same way. But to answer your question, I go to the bird and let go of the trigger and feel recoil.

 

Brian that quote says it all.

You need to lower the POI or send that gun down the road.

You could lower the comb or add a rib that will lower the POI.

That gun would is set up for someone but not you.

Good luck

 

Storm,
I did bring the gun down and that helped. This Ljuctic is an older gun(1982) and already has an Olympic rib with a Patternator that I call the "CPC Adapter" (Clay Powderic Converter) on it from factory. I don't think its the gun, I just have to learn the proper sight picture. The first time I shot the gun, I only missed two birds and the ones I hit were nothing but a cloud. No, if I can fix this problem it might be my best year yet. I think a lot is forgetting how flat my BT 99 shot. When I shoot one of Larry Sowers K guns, I do the same thing.

 

Brian

Congrats on the new gun. I hope it is your best year.

 

Thanks Storm, love the new website.

 

Brian if that guns not working out for you send it to me and I`ll see if I can figure it out. Might take some time though.

 

Brian S., the "moment of truth" you speak of is actually your personal timing to a target to actually see, (a bird/bead/barrel relationship) necessary to smoke a target.

Harlan Campbell's poi is 25 inches above his poa, Ray Stafford's is between 25 and 32 inches above his poa, their personal moment of truth as it relates to the targets rise and angle. As successful as both these men are should make the rest of us think our guns shoot way too low in comparison? Not true at all! How both attack their targets is a FAR different method than most of us. They each have a personal timing to smoke targets too and a bird/bead/barrel relationship in addition! In order to see how these two All-Americans use such a high poi impact, you'd have to watch intently how much they raise the end of their gun barrel upwards! None to hardly any is what you'll be watching and seeing. Hardly ever will you see either raising the barrels end more than a half inch or so to make the proper connection!

Shooting a moving target with a moving gun tells us it's far easier to make a perfect relationship of the two using our natural traits. That being, it's far easier to point your finger (guns bead/barrel) directly at an object rather than GUESS how much under, over or lead to arrive at the proper "moment of truth"? Relying on guess work alone isn't the answer your looking for or need.

There's a controlled aggression that smokes targets and shooting out of control eagerness which leads to unexplained loses. Any attempt at making your gun moves faster than what your eyes are seeing is a lesson in futility.

HAP

 

Brian, you mentioned the gun was supposed to be 60-40 from the factory. That is a very flat shooting gun. Of course that does not mean it shoots 60-40 for you. I have got to set all of my guns up to shoot around 120% high for me to turn targets into black spots. I can tell you one of the reasons you are having some of your problems is because of triggers in the guns. The lock time on the Ljutic is not even similar to that of the Browning. The biggest well known problem with Ljutic guns are there triggers especially there release triggers. I have shoot thousands of rounds through a Ljutic and still own one even though I do not shoot it. There triggers require constant attention. Check the set and let go with a trigger scales of the Browning and the Ljutic. I will bet they are not even close. Therefore even if both guns were supposed to shoot 60-40, the Ljutic will shoot completely different then the Browning. Since then I have shot a Silver Seitz and own three Alfermann's. The Alfermann boys have worked on all three of the triggers to make sure they are ALL setting and releasing at the exact same place. The trigger has a lot to do with the POI not just the gun setup. There is a VERY SMALL spring in the bottom of the Ljutic trigger that is VERY critical to the POI of that gun. Do not just let any one work on that trigger. I had to change the three roll pins and that little spring at least one a year in my gun when I was shooting a lot. When that little spring gets worn (looses tension), the gun will shoot completely different.

Let me give you some good advice. Quit guessing and listening to the BS from a lot of guys on these websites. Call Dave Berlet (419-753-2557) in New Knoxville, Ohio. Dave is an ATA and Ohio State Hall of Fame shooter. When you go see Dave, bring your Browning (and any other guns) and have him check the trigger. I would suggest you take Dave's advise on triggers also. Dave is an absolute expert in getting a gun to shoot where you are looking. He will make the gun fit you. Not sure what that will require. Dave will only charge you if there is some work required. He is the best at making adjustable combs, add on ribs, adjustable recoil pads, etc. All you got to do is make that call, go up to his place, he will take you out to a pattern board and make the gun shoot where you want it providing the trigger is performing as it should.

 

Ask an experienced shooter you trust to watch you shoot to look for signs of head lifting or even just cheek relaxing.

 

mah66,
I did that. I had Larry Sowers shoot beside me for two rounds and said the gun was shooting high. He even shot the gun and talked about the height of the special comb on the grade of wood that came on the gun(exb.). I think that HAP is on to something though. I just have to reprogram that relationship of the bead/barrel. I have set and watched Harlan's CD several times and there really isn't that much spacing between the beads. I really think the gun is close. I think it's more me than the gun because I do the same thing with other guns beside the Ljuctic. As far as the trigger, I very satisfied with the work Tom Trick has done on the trigger. As a master tool maker, Ljuctic has approached Tom about building a designed release to take care of the problems that you were talking about. However Dick, you might be right to let Dave give me some input to the issue of gun fit and POI.
Thanks everyone for your input. Flinch King

 

Brian, I am not sure I made the trigger point clear. Assuming all guns were setup exactly the same, if one of the guns releases at 24 oz and the other one lets go at 30 oz the POI will be drastically different. VERY difficult to switch guns if you shoot a release that is different from gun to gun. I am not questioning someone's ability with the trigger. Make sure the three roll pins do not have any flat spots in them and the little spring on the bottom has been replaced. I suggest setting the trigger around a 24oz release with a small amount of travel. Then go shoot it.

 

This is just my humble opinion based on how my own eyes/brain work, but if you are consciously thinking about lead or measuring "float" you're going to miss a lot of targets. Just look hard at the front edge of the bird and find a way to adjust/modify your gun until the birds consistently crush. Lock the trap on straightaways to find this setting if you wish. If that puts you at 5" high, or 35" high it doesn't really matter, so long as the birds disappear.

Then leave the gun alone so your brain can log a lot of data and further program itself to your new gun/set-up.

Good luck.

-Gary

 

Thanks Gary,
I think it will come down to just getting the sight picture in my head. This might just come down to time spent on the trap range. It's sort of cool trying to figure out the gun. We used to call working the gun. John Shima talked about it this month in Skeet And Field magazine. He talked about the struggle or trial period. Followed by the break through and then the new "norm". I'm in the struggling part right now.

 

Brian
Good luck with the new gun.
I have never been a fan of "Working the gun"
I always prefer a gun that suits my style.

Break'em all

 

Thanks Wishbone,
Thank you to all my fellow trap shooters here on America trap shooter for all the advise you have given me to help me thru this challenge. One thing is clear, that we as shooters and mentors play a role in moving the sport forward. This is my eighth year as a competitor and shooter. I have learned so much from the people that I have competed against and my squad mates that have given me advise to improve my shooting and enjoyment of the sport. I always think of the person who got me started in the sport, John Jurich. He taught me to do my best, and to be a asset to the sport rather than a poor sport. I will report back to this group once my surgery wounds are past and I'm able to shoot again (mid March). God Bless and thank you - Flinch king.

 

Brian call Ljutic and give them the serial # to see if there were any modifications done to the gun at the factory, I have sent a lot of guns to have the ribs cut down to shoot higher, you may have gotten one of my old guns, order about 3 sets of roll pins for the trigger, thay are all the same, use a new pin and drive out the old pins one at a time, Mic them, and roll them on a piece of glass, to see if they are bent, I changed mine a minimum of once each year, I personally feel their trigger pins are too small, they do have the new Pat McCarthy Ljutic Release triggers, which are better than the Ljutic Releases. Just a suggestion.
Dr.longshot

 

Thanks Dr. L,
I do have the history of this gun (#2183). Tom called them a couple years ago, that's how I know what year the gun was made. The gun has a very high comb on it. Larry Sowers says that if I lower the comb, it will bring the POI down. I just can't bear the thought of cutting that beautiful wood. I don't think this gun has had many shells put thru it. But I will call them and request a couple sets of roll pins. The trigger is very simple compared to the browning triggers. I watched Tom take the trigger apart and adjust the release in this trigger group several times until he got it right. I have a lot to learn this year!

 

Brian
The only way that lowering the comb is going to help is if you are seeing space between the beads.

Otherwise lowering the comb will just have you looking at the back of the receiver and that won't help.

Enjoy the new gun and let us know how it works out.

 

Wishbone. I am seeing space between the beads. Not much , but more that my BT 99. I've tried to figure this out and that's why I started think thread. I'm trying to just help on building visual picture of what that should look like.

 

Brian
That is why I brought it up.

If you don't see much space between the beads then you will only be able to lower the comb a little bit.

It may not be enough to accomplish what you want.

If you lower the comb 1/16 inches you will only lower the pattern 2-3 inches @ 40 yards.

 

Thanks Wishbone, your help and knowledge is very much appreciated. You are telling me the same thing Larry told me. I just hate to cut that beautiful stock. I'll keep you in the loop along with Dr. L.
So many times I have broken out of the gate and did something that everyone else has also done. Either change guns, or shells and maybe a different load or recipe that you have used for years. Nobody can throw that first stone. I believe that I have made myself a better competitor with choosing a different gun. I could be, and probably am wrong. That where the "for sale" section comes in to play. It's like the "Go Fish" area of our websites. We all have done it, and yet we make fun of people that do the same thing and post evil remarks. " Send me your gun and I'll get it set up for you. Or why did you make a decision to change guns that earn you a place on a zone team?
Remember, one of my mentors is Peter J. He'll kick your a@# like he does mine with a $169 Sear and Roebuck gun that he bought from a pawn shop. It's like the story about the Indian and the arrow. My first lesson with him was at Middletown. We went up to the clubhouse for a skull session and talk about trapshooting. We started toward the steps and I stopped and asked if he was going to go back and get his gun. He replied, " Nobody wants that piece if S$#t gun". I love a person that knows his ability and can teach you something about the sport. That's what earned him and Larry Sowers both a place in the Ohio State Hall Of Fame.
I love the gun and the look, smell and feel of the wood. That's why we all do what we do. Nobody says " I love the look of a clay bird target, or I love how a clay bird smells when it breaks". No, we like the feel or look of our guns or the smell of Federal paper shells and gun powder. The fun of learning to have fun with our squad mates and spend money that we really don't have and are needed for bills. Yes, that is what trapshooting is all about and it's no different than a trunk full of golf clubs or 5 tackle boxes and 12 fishing poles. The only difference that I can think of is jail time for a weapon's violation for going to Sparta. OK I'm done, I have to go lay down for a while. Thanks for letting we vent, I feel better.

 

Brian, so far you are just guessing. You really, really, really have to test the point of impact of that gun. You don't know where it shoots or even if it shoot straight.

You are talking about changing things when you have no real idea where things are now. This is a bad way to go at it. You will never understand what's happening (and yoiu don't now) until you get some trustwortyh data about where that gun is delivering its shot.

Testing - really testing - the POI is a good deal of work, but nothing like the work involved in selling a gun you wrecked through laziness and finding a new one to probably wreck as well.

Neil

Here's how you do it. Anything short of this is guessing. Just set it up and do it. Shoot half a box of premium factory light 7 1/2s and you will never have to even pattern it; you will know how and where it shoots.

http://www.mn-trap.org/tech_corner/n_winston/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf

 

Thanks Neil,
That's great advise, and I'm planning on doing just that when the weather breaks and my hand heals.
Brian

 

Great! It sounds like drudgery but really, it's a lot of fun. By the time your hand heals I plan to have a new entry on Claytargettesting.com which will double your payback, since it will "pattern" your gun for you as well as determining your point of impact.

Your real payoff, however, will be in showing your friends at the club how to do it for themselves and the surprising results of many of the tests. It is the frist step in learning to shoot any gun, new or old.

Yours in Sport,

Neil

 

Brian, when you call and order roll pins, make sure you get some of the little springs that go on the bottom of the release. This VERY important in the performance of the release in that gun. This spring needs replaced more often then the roll pins.
By the way, this spring in not used in a pull trigger. I cannot believe the good doctor has not told you about this spring.

 

Thanks Dick,
I'll order both and keep them in the case with the gun. I need to try and find out a little more about the "Patternator" system on the barrel anyways.

 

Neil,
Is the clay target testing website something you created? I did down load your testing sequence for the POI and setup from TS search forum . That information was priceless. I know there was a lot of time and experimenting that went into that report and test data. I will start my 13 yard test and then look at patterning and chronographing later on. Thanks for all the help.
Brian Seibert

 

Ljutic Paternator was Ljutic's first attempt at a choke tube.
There were 3 chokes Cylinder, Modified, and Full.
They came with a special choke wrench.

They were long and heavy.
They were used on Monogun's starting around the 1900 serial range.

They didn't last very long and they were replaced by the current style.
They do not interchange.

 

You are correct. It looks like a bazooka, sort of cool. I call it the CPC or the "Clay Powderic Converter". The serial is #2183. How do I check the choke tube. I would like to know if it's a Full or Mod or IC or what ever. Also, do you have to have a wrench to remove that choke or can something else be substituted. Of course you know why I'm asking, there is no wrench. I'm looking forward to the spring and the testing time to tell me more about the POI and patterning of the gun. Fun times.

 

I thought it said the choke constriction on the end. Sorry I don't have a wrench.

 

The end of my barrel don't look nothing like that. The Ljutic that I have a two step type end on it. Now that choke tube wrench might work, but the part of your choke that has the front bead is nothing like the front of muzzle of my barrel. It might be a collector's item, a one of a kind.
Brian

 

Brian, I think a lot of folks would like to see a picture or two of your gun. I know I would love to see it. Where did you purchase the gun?

 

BP, I shot an "Olympic Rib" Ljutic about 25 years ago, owned by the then-head of neurosurgery at the University of Minnesota Medical School. The mental picture I have of it is a monogun with an extremely high (for its day, perhaps not today) and spindly rib, made lighter than you would think by scrupulous attention to weight-control. The one I shot had some noticeable pitch to the rib, but if Brian's is really the 60/40 gun he describes, it would be flatter.

I think of it as my first contact with a "factory" shotgun promoting the "heads up" shooting-style which is so popular, at least today. Since I sometimes seem to use the barrel, rather than the rib or bead, to point a shotgun, I was not particularly successful with it, but I do recall it was a lot easier to move to the target than it looked like it would be (or in fact, than many of today's "heads up" guns still are.)

While Patternator tubes looked a little like they came from a plumbing supplier when compared to current tubes which resemble jewelry, they shot just fine. In 1986, Frank Kodl, then publisher of Shotgun Sports, won the Clay Target Championship of America with a Patternator 0.710" choke in a 0.738 bore shooting one-ounce Remington 8 1/2's.

Yours in Sport,

Neil

 

As I recall Ljutic in the 1980's made what some people referred to as a Banana Gun. This gun had what looked like a barrel within a barrel, choke tubes were in the inner barrel, I don't know from the description if this is what you have, just passing along the information.

 

Hi Dick,
Here is some pictures of the beast. I love hearing from some of the older guys that have shot one of these guns. So here are the pictures. T answer the question of where did the gun come from, it was one of my squad mates guns that I bought this year. Enjoy.

 

Boy, that's in nice shape, Brian! Nearly "like new" in fact. I looks to me like it shoots pretty high, based on the pitch of the rib, and it's very much like the one I shot all those years ago.

You mentioned that the stock is very high and it has to be to make it possible to see over that rib! So maybe lowering the stock, it that's what you had in mind, won't work unless you see a lot of space between the beads now. That's what limits how low you can make a particular gun shoot by modifications to the comb alone.

Neil

 

That looks good Brian.

It is nice to see you got the later version of the chokes.

The rib looks like a higher shooter.

 

Thanks Wishbone,
The Olympic rib is a little higher than the rib I had on my BT 99 ( ADD A RIB). Like Neil instructed, I have to put it on paper now. I really believe the gun is close. I think a lot has to do with my bad habits and not focusing on the target and not the gun. Back when this gun was built, you just learn to shoot what you had.

 

Hi Brian,
I have almost an identical gun to yours. Mine does not accept any type of choke tube wrench. The end of the tube is just knurled. The previous owner didn't clean and oil it enough so as much as I hated to do it took a pair of channel locks and a rag and got it out to clean it up and oil it. The one difference is mine has an adjustable comb but it's not raised much at all. And our stock dimensions are probably different. It shoots 100%. ironic thing is one of my squad mates wants to purchase it as well. I don't know a fair price to ask for it? any help there would be appreciated.
Thanks, Joe

 

Hi Joe,
We plan on modifying the end of the choke tube so a wrench can be used. As far as price, you'll have to research what a fair price would be for your friend. They usually start in the low to mid $3000 range and go up from there. I have purchased another stock to help with the issue of POI on my gun. I'm wanting to keep the stock simple to avoid a lot of movement and possible changes that can happen during a shoot.
Good Luck, Brian Seibert