Gun Weight Limit GAH year 1900 Live Bird Applies to Today.

Have you shot 500 rounds in a weekend with 1 1/4 ounce loads out of an eight pound gun? Or 3 1/4 drams? That would make Brutus flinchy.

1900 Grand rules prohibited a gun over 8 pounds. Yikes! That would keep me from
1 1/4 ounce loads at 1300 FPS.

The rocket scientists in the ATA have ignored the payload and velocities of today’s shells. Here comes the $3500 stocks to handle the common velocities and payloads.

Have you weighed these things? 10 1/2 to 13 pounds is the norm for a system with this.

SCTP kids and blue collar shooters must have sticker shock!

Imagine dreaming of a $15K Seitz or Bowen. No big deal for the motorhome gang. But the blue collar shooter can’t imagine having to grab a $3500 stock to stay competitive. His dream is the Seitz or Bowen. Extra stock?

What if the gun weight was limited at 9.5 pounds? It would be easy to enforce. Just a thought.



Photo from username Trap 3

 

$3500 for a stock or $7 for 3/4 inch copper tubing and a lead pot? My tip to any pump gun or auto shooter is it is real easy way to weight up your guns - My 870 Remington started out at 8.25# -rattled my teeth with heavy loads - installed a lead filled copper tubing in the front of the mag. spring and a 4 inch piece of one inch lead in the stock -Bumped the weight to 10.25# tamed down those Fiocchi 1 3/8oz. 1485 fps Annie loads. -- Us blue collar shooter, if we don't have the money we find a way!

 

I'm assuming you could fill the tube with shot also. Did you cap off the ends with something or just left the melted lead exposed?

 

The 3/4 copper tubing was sold in two foot lengths- cut four inch pieces for 870 stocks - three shell lengths or 8.25 inches for mag. tubes. That gives you maximum weight and still gives you two shot compacity -- heat a high brass shell and pull off heads to use as a bottom plug -They seals the hot lead better than a low brass - Advantage is it is heavier than shot per inch -- Much easier to just cut to get the balance and weight you want.

 

Im in favor of the miss three and you leave the line rule. Its what it is to win anything really anyway, and then the events would not take hours and hours.

 

Says "Weight of Guns limited to 8 pounds."
That meant a gun of over 8 pounds was illegal.
It also meant a gun of under 8 pounds was illegal.
The only guns that were legal weighed exactly 8 pounds, no more, no less.
Man, they had some tight rules back then.

 

The weight limit on the guns was 8Lbs.

If the speed limit sign reads 70, is it illegal to go 68?

The rule wasn’t that tight. People understood 8Lbs was the LIMIT.

Most pigeon shoots had a “limit” of 3-3/4 drams
It doesn’t mean you HAD to shoot them.

Tried it once in both barrels. Once....

 

Didn't say gun weight was limited to a maximum of 8 pounds.
Didn't say the gun weight limit is 8 pounds.
Said gun weight was limited to 8 pounds.
I know what they meant. What they meant wasn't what they said.

 

If you knew what they meant (max weight was 8Lbs) and I'm pretty sure the shooters back then did, why would you say the rules were
"tight"?

 

The weight of guns was one of the two elements of handicapping shooters and dates back to the 1870s and probably even earlier than that. The other elements were the bore. The rules only applied to 10-bore and 12-bore. Shooters using smaller gauged shotguns were required to compete along with those with 12 gauge guns.

There were a lot of trapshooting rules out there, many clubs, even State Associations devising their own rules. It wasn't until 1885 that universal rules for the entire country were compiled by the first national association, the National Gun Association.

The earliest rules I have on file are the Illinois State Sportsmen's Association of 1874 and they did not speak to the weight of the gun.

1874

Illinois State Sportsmen’s Association Rules

RULES FOR TRAP SHOOTING

The following are the rules adopted to govern the trap shooting.​

SINGLE BIRDS.​

RULE 1. Traps, Rise, and Boundaries. – All matches shall be shot from H and T plunge traps, set five yards apart. The rise shall be twenty-one yards, and the boundaries eighty yards, measured from a point equi-distant from and in a direct line between the two traps.

RULE 2. At the Score, Rise of Birds, Gun Below the Elbow, etc. – When a person is at the score and ready to shoot, he is to call distinctly, “pull;” should the bird not fly when the trap is sprung, the shooter may declare no bird; but should the bird fly before such declaration is made, it will be considered a bird. Should the trap be sprung without his having given the word, the bird shall not be scored either way, whether killed or missed. The party must not leave the score to shoot, and must hold the butt of his gun below the elbow until the bird takes wing, and in case of infraction of this rule, the bird shall be scored as missed. All birds must be on the wing when shot at.

RULE 3. Miss-Fires. – All contingencies from miss-fires, non-explosion of cap, gun not cocked, are at the risk of the party shooting, but the shooter shall have the right to use the second barrel in case the first shall have failed to be discharged.

RULE 4. Securing and Scoring Birds. – It shall be optional with the party shooting to secure his own birds or appoint a person for that purpose. The party who starts for the bird must secure it – time allowed, three minutes. No extraneous means shall be used to gather it, and no person except the one gathering the bird shall go between the referee and the bird. No bird shall be score until so ordered by the referee. If challenged it must be delivered at the score and show shot marks. If a bird flies out of bounds it shall be scored as missed.

RULE 5. Bird on the Ground. – If a bird is shot at when on the ground it shall be scored a lost bird.

RULE 6. Charge of Shot. – The charge of shot shall be 1 ¼ ounce by weight, avoirdupois. Charge of powder unlimited. The referee shall, at the request of any person engaged in the match, examine the charge of any person challenged. Should it contain more than 1 ¼ ounce of shot, as above defined, he shall forfeit all his rights in the match. If a party interested, after the match has begun, desires to challenge the load of the shooter, he shall be required to deposit five dollars in the hands of the referee, and if the charge of the challenged party is found correct, the party challenging shall forfeit the five dollars to the party challenged.

RULE 7. Ties – In case of ties, the distance shall be increased five yards, and shall be shot off at five birds. In case of a second tie, the distance shall be increased five yards further, and this distance shall be maintained until the match is decided. All ties shall be shot off on the same ground immediately after the match, if they can be concluded before sunset. In case they cannot be concluded by sunset, they shall be shot off the following, unless otherwise directed by the referee. Any one of the contestants being absent half an hour after the time appointed to shoot, shall forfeit his rights to contest the match.

RULE 8. Judges, Referee, etc. – Two judges and a referee shall be appointed before the shooting commences. The referee’s decision shall be final, except in case of an infraction of these rules by said referee, in which case a contestant can enter a protest at the time of infraction, and appeal to the Executive Committee. Any member refusing to abide by the decision of the said committee shall be expelled from the association.

The referee may allow a contestant another bird in case the latter has been balked or interfered with, or may, for any reason satisfactory to the referee, be entitled to it. If a bird shall fly toward parties within the bounds, in such a manner that to shoot at it would endanger any person or property, another bird may be allowed, and if a bird is shot at by any person besides the party at the score, the referee shall decided how it shall be scored, or whether another bird shall be allowed.

DOUBLE BIRDS.​

RULE 1. Traps, Rise, and Boundaries. – All matches shall be shot from H and T plunge traps, set alternately five yards apart. The rise shall be eighteen yards, and the boundaries 100 yards from a point equal-distant from and in a direct line between the center of the two traps used.

RULE 2. Rise of Bird. – The gun shall be held with the butt below the elbow until the first bird shot at is on the wing. Should the traps be sprung before the word “pull” is given by the shooter, the birds shall not be scored either way, whether killed or missed. The traps must be sprung simultaneously.

RULE 3. Rise of Birds. – Both birds must be on the wing when the first is shot at. If but one bird flies and but one barrel is fired or snapped, the birds shall in no wise be scored, whether hit or missed, but the party shooting shall have two more birds. If both birds fly and are killed with one barrel both are to be scored.

RULE 4. Securing and Scoring Birds – Same as rule 4 for singles birds, except that five minutes shall be allowed to gather the bird or birds.

RULE 5. Ties – In case of ties they shall be shot off at twenty-one yards, at five double rise3s.

RULE 6. Miss-Fires – In case of a miss-fire of either barrel the shooter shall have another pair of birds, provided the gun was properly loaded.

RULE 7. Judges, Referee, etc. – Same as rule 8 for single birds.

The Executive Committee reserves the right to change the rules should necessity seem to require.

[ THE INTER OCEAN, (Chicago, Illinois), June 3, 1874, page 8 ]

In 1884, Gwynne Price, of St. Louis, author of American Rules For Pigeon Shooting, Editor of Western Sporting Life and well known referee of pigeon contests, had rules printed in book form. Mr. Price had a few more rules than prior regulations.

PIGEON SHOOTING

FIVE GROUND TRAPS,

GWYNNE PRICE, Sportsmen's Club, St. Louis, Mo.​

The following rules for pigeon shooting from five ground traps, have been very carefully compiled; and it is claimed they will more fully meet all requirements, than any before published.

It will be observed that the shooter has been given the benefit of any error or doubt, where interference or wrong doing is suspected.

Thus, if two birds are loosed instead of one, it is calculated to mislead him; so that if he shoots and kills, the bird is scored; but if he misses he will have another bird, because it may have been done purposely to annoy or baffle him.

Again, if a bird refuses to fly in moderate time, the party supplying it should bear the loss as he is paid for good birds. It should be clearly understood that it is no part of the duty of a contestant to challenge any bird, or in fact any condition. It is absolutely the business of the referee to conduct the whole shooting, to notice the holding of the gun, and carry out the general rules, and more than anything, to see that the bird is fully and fairly on the wing when shot at, not merely struggling along the ground using wings and legs, but to be legitimately flying, and if not killed under such circumstances, another bird should be ordered. Also to have every bird gathered before giving his decision. But if a shooter willfully shoots at a sitting bird with his first barrel, it should be scored a lost bird.

All minor matters, such as interference with the shooter or shooting at a bird by a scout, must be left entirely to the referee to decide according to circumstances. His decisions being subject to revision, if unfairly given, as per rule 29.

Apropos of guns and ammunition, the following rule recently adopted by the Hurlingham Gun Club, of London, will not find many admirers in the United States: "After June 17th, the weight of guns shall be limited to 7 pounds 8 ounces, the charge of powder to be limited to 3 1-2 drachms, and soft shot only to be used ; no chilled shot or concentrators to be allowed."

RULE 1. Traps. How Placed. – Shooting to be from five ground traps, placed five yards apart, the centre trap in a direct line in front of the shooter, and if practicable, the traps so placed that the birds will have the benefit of the wind behind them.

RULE 2. Traps. How Pulled. – The number of the trap pulled to be decided by die, or by wads marked 1 to 5, drawn by the referee, after the shooter has advanced to the score, and shown privately to puller.

RULE 3. Traps. When Pulled. – When ready, the shooter shall say pull, and the trap shall be instantly opened.

RULE 4. Pulling. Falsely. – If from any cause more than one bird shall be loosed at the same time, anyone or more be killed, one bird shall be scored, and if missed, another bird shall be allowed free of cost.

RULE 5. Pulling. Notice. – If the trap is pulled before proper notice from the shooter, he may take or refuse the bird; but if he shoots, he must abide by the consequences.

RULE 6. Holding Gun. – The gun shall be held fairly down from the shoulder, until the word pull is given; and the bird shall be shot at when fully on the wing, with the first barrel; after which the second barrel may be used as the shooter likes, without leaving his position.

RULE 7. Bird. Flying. – Should the bird refuse to fly in moderate time, the referee shall, if requested by the shooter, call a no bird, and another shall be trapped without cost, and the die thrown again.

RULE 8. Bird on Ground. – A bird deliberately shot at on the ground with the first barrel shall be scored lost; but the referee may order another bird, at the shooter’s expense, if he has any doubt.

RULE 9. Size of Gun. – Guns shall not exceed 11-bore for muzzle-loaders, and 10-bore for breech loaders.

RULE 10. Shot Charge. – Charge of shot shall not exceed 1 ¼ oz. Dixon’s full measure 1106 or 1007; and no wire cartridges shall be used.

RULE 11. Shot Challenge. – Any contestant may challenge the loading of a shooter as he goes to the score, and shall deposit five dollars as a guarantee of good faith. If the charge is found to be unfair, the shooter shall be disqualified; but if his gun was properly loaded, he shall be entitled to the five dollars so deposited.

RULE 12. Shot Marks. – A bird shot at when fairly on the wing, and gathered, shall not be challenged for shot marks.

RULE 13. Miss-Fire. – A miss-fire will be considered no shot, provided the gun is properly loaded and cocked, and another bird shall be trapped at shooter’s cost.

RULE 14. Miss-Fire, First Barrel. – If the first barrel miss-fire, and the second barrel is used, the bird shall be scored; or if the second barrel miss-fire, another bird shall be had at the shooter’s cost; the first barrel being fired with powder only after the bird is on the wing.

RULE 15. Gathering. – Every bird must be gathered by hand after each shot, either by the shooter or his deputy, in reasonable time, and without going over the boundary line. If a dog is used, the bird shall be scored if once fairly caught, and if the bird should perch within the boundary, the shooter or deputy may assist the dog.

RULE 16. Boundary. – If the enclosure is the boundary, and a bird closes his wings on top of the fence, or reaches the roof or cover of any fixed erection inside the grounds higher than the fence, it is a lost bird.

RULE 17. Boundary, Doubtful. – Should a bird fall within the boundary, and the referee be unable to decide whether it has been over the line, he may order another bird at shooter's expense.

RULE 18. Fine for Shooting. – Shooting at a bird within the boundary before it shall have been scored lost, by any other than the shooter, without his consent, shall be punishable by a fine of five dollars, and added to the first prize.

RULE 19. Unloading Guns. – The gun shall not be fully loaded, or capped, until the shooter is at the mark; and if the second barrel is not used, it must be uncapped or unloaded before returning.

RULE 20. Danger. – If a bird flies so that to shoot in proper time would endanger life or property, the referee may order another bird without cost.

RULE 21. Double Birds. – In shooting at two birds, they may be loosed from one or two traps. Both birds may be killed at one shot, if on the wing. It is not necessary for both birds to be flying at the same time; but if the second bird refuses to fly, two others shall be trapped without cost. The distance should be by handicap, each shooter going in five yards nearer than at single bird shooting.

RULE 22. Distances. – Shooting to be all at a given distance, or by a handicap of from 24 to 30 yards rise, according to merit. A winner of any sweepstakes with five or more shooters, shall be put back one yard for each and every win during that day, until he shall have reached the 30 yards limit, and if any shooter at 30 yards wins a like prize, the others shall go in one yard.

RULE 23. Entry. – No person shall be allowed to join in a sweepstakes after the first bird in the second round shall have been shot at, unless he arrived on the grounds too late to enter at proper time, and then only by consent of the majority of the contestants.

RULE 24. Position on Card. – The position of the shooters shall be decided by drawing, if demanded, and each round shot through in regular order; any shooter not being ready in reasonable time, shall forfeit his right in the match.

RULE 25. Sweepstakes. – Sweepstakes of $1 to be miss and out; $2, 3 birds each, one miss wait; and $5, 6 birds each, two misses wait.

RULE 26. Winning Penalty. – A winner of a prize of $100 or more, at one time, shall be put back one yard in his regular handicap for every such win.

RULE 27. Ties. – All ties, except in matches, when all bets are off, are to be shot off same time, same number of birds, and same distances, unless mutually agreed to be miss and out, or divided; a majority in the ties to rule.

RULE 28. Division of Stakes. – Moneys to be divided between the three best shots, in the proportion of 50, 30 and 20 per cent., after deducting cost of birds.

RULE 29. Appeal. – The decision of the referee shall at all times be upheld, unless on a, question of fact or construction of the rules., a majority of three-fifths of the shooters shall be in favor of the appellant, by a private ballot, taken by the scorer on the spot, and before another bird is shot at.

These rules are published in a separate form for the pocket. Mailed free for 5 cents, stamps, by GWYNNE Price, St. Louis, Mo.

[ CLAY PIGEON & WING SHOOTING & THE GUN AND HOW TO USE IT, 1884, page 53 - 57 ]

I'll post other rules later. Some rules even called for gun weights to be unlimited.

HB

 

Because, as stated, the rule was very restrictive; only guns weighing 8 pounds were eligible.