EVOLUTION OF FLIGHTS & ANGLES - 101

Regardless of your opinion on the “Flights & Angles” rules:

1. Acceptable now
2. Make them more narrow
3. Widen them more

You might be interested in learning about how targets were set in the past. I’ve compiled a series of rules and diagrams on the subject and I hope everyone finds it worth the reading.

Introduction:

The History of Target Flights & Angles

Discussions about the flights and angles of targets took place many years before the advent of inanimate targets (glass balls & clay pigeons). Sportsmen who hunted birds in the field and/or shot live-birds released from traps recognized that more shots were taken at left and right quartering birds than any other direction of flight.

During the many decades of shooting live pigeons from the trap, each shot taken by shooters were not only recorded by the use of 0s, 1s, 2s and *s, the actual flight of the bird was occasionally included in the written account of shooting events. Terms such as incomer, outgoer, left-quarterer, right-quarterer, provided readers with additional details of each shot, sometimes including even more adjectives such as towering, driver, zig-zag and corkscrew. See example below:

At Watson’s shooting grounds, in Chicago, Illinois, December 23, 1896, W. F. “Doc” Carver, from Chicago, and Charles M. Grimm, of Clear Lake, Iowa shot a match for the “Cast Iron” medal that was placed in competition back in 1893. Many of our country’s greatest shooters once held possession of this famous trophy. The following account gives some of the descriptions of the flights of pigeons in this 100-bird match.

“Firing the second barrel just as a towering outgoer tried “corkscrew” antics lost Carver the twenty-fourth bird, and a circling right quarterer gave him another blank in the thirtieth round.”

“A round of applause greeted his “kill” of the forty-eighth pigeon, a hard twisting outgoer, dark in color.”

“Grimm came to grief on a “corkscrew” right quartering bird after his straight score of 51, and again fell down in the fifty-ninth round on an outgoer, which changed its flight to the left quarter as he was firing.”
Mr. Grimm won the match killing 98 pigeons to “Doc” Carver’s 96.

For those still wondering about the 0s, 1s, 2s, and *s; the 0 (zero) signified a “lost” bird; 1 (one) the bird was killed on the first shot (first barrel), 2, it was necessary to use the second barrel to kill the bird, and the * (asterisk) showed the bird was killed, but beyond the boundary and was therefore scored lost.

In the 1878 edition of Field, Cover and Trap Shooting, Captain Adam H. Bogardus, world champion shot, in discussing the rules for glass ball shooting and how to set up his patented glass ball trap, says that clubs should three traps and arrange them so “the shooter gets both right and left quarter shots and one straight back shot, and every sportsman is aware that he will get more shots of that kind in the field than any other.”

The setting of quartering angles continued when the National Gun Association (first governing body for clay pigeon shooting) adopted their rules circa 1885, as did the American Shooting Association; the Interstate Manufactures and Dealers Association and American Trapshooting Association. Sometime after the Amateur Trapshooting Association organized (1924), the officers finally made the change from the word “quartering” to 45 degrees which remained in the rules until the 1955 target year.

As you review the following excerpts from the old rules, note the gradual changes in the distance and height in which targets were once set. You’ll also see the varied distance between traps and shooting stations. Rise (shooting distance) is another rule that went through changes. Doubles were once shot from 14 and 15 yards with one target being a staightaway from the No. 3 Post. Singles where once shot from 18yards. The total area of legal targets (normal distribution of targets and area outside of the left and right angle setting) is another dimension that was narrowed.

1885 – 1954 Trapshooting rules called for: 45° angles

1955 – 1996 Trapshooting rules called for: 22° angles

1997 – present Trapshooting rules call for: 17° angles

HB

 

Now lets look at the ATA years between 1924 and 1954.











I thought some might like to see this old Trap Field Layout.







In 1955 the rules were changed dramatically. The target area was narrowed to 22°

 

Right from the start this quote kills me.....

 

The sportsmen left n '95.

 

Family Guy, here's the shooter and writer who made the statement.

 

Thanks HB!! Very interesting read you've posted here!!

Could you imagine the look on some of todays shooters shooting that 1940 setting? Heck, todays shooters would turn down half of those targets?

HAP

 

Bogardus, I would have thought was latin for one being selfish with a joint and he wanted tuffer targets. One great New Yorker!

Bogardus a Hall of Famer and a real person in sport. thanks kre

 

This has to make you giggle.

 

1890 they were required to throw the targets between 40 and 60 yards. All todays big dogs would have the traps reset to throw 40. We are an embarrassment to ourselves.

 

Thank You HB for taking the time to post this.

Flyersarebest

 

How was anyone able to argue in front of the ATA that the targets height setting had to be set so exact. And who would want to ruin the sporting part of our sport. 1939 and 1850 6-12 ft high 30 feet from the house.

The game was meant to be unpredictable.

In my mind there are a few serious money questions?

1. Why can't our best shooters handle this challenge?

2. Why are some of our delegates so blind to the destruction of our sport.

3. Why are the delegates that understand what has happened so inclined to keep their mouths shut? (my delegate not included)

4. Why are our fellow shooters not contacting their delegates to make some changes be it concrete or some other presentation?

 

History Buff.....do you have the high scores for the singles championship in 1939 and 1950?

 

Family Guy,

I assume you mean the Clay Target Championship at the GAH.

Even though the rules called for 45 degree targets up til and including 1954, I'm not certain that gun clubs and even the G.A.H. tournament was throwing them. I'm being led to believe by some real old-timers who set targets in the 40's that his father's club threw straightaways from Posts 1 & 5. And the reason for my assumption that they were not setting the extreme angles at 45 degrees in '54 is because the Western White Flyer 1524 trap was on the market in 1950 and all material I've seen called for the #3-hole setting for compliance with A.T.A. which was approximately 22 degrees (straightaway setting from Posts 1 & 5). The widest hole #5 only threw a 30 1/2 degree target.

Also remember that even though the rules permitted low and high targets, it was the general rule to throw them 9 to 9 1/2 feet high and 50 yards. I think the rules gave a lot of latitude in case inclement weather caused targets to fall on the short or long side. I don't imagine there were many resetting of the field's back then.

I seem to recall discussion about the height and it was always attempted to follow the 9 1/2 ft high target measured at 10 yards in front of the trap. They even mentioned that height in degrees. They attempted to set targets at 15 degrees.

I've come across many reports of 60 and 70 yard targets and some at 40 or more yards.

The game was designed so that perfect scores would only happen on rare occasions and going straight was something to get excited about as it didn't happen much. Remember there were many years between the first and 2nd 100 straights in the Grand American Handicap. It surely wouldn't have happened if they were throwing soft targets.

1939 & 1950 Clay Target Champions both broke 200.

1965 Sears Gene El Reno OK 200
1964 Bailey Bueford Big Springs NE 200
1963 Barnhart C. E. Kansas City MO 200
1962 Kalpach Bernard Whiting IN 200
1961 Biagi Tony Highland Park IL 200
1960 Hiestand Joe Hillsboro OH 200
1959 Onka Kevin Sugar Creek MO 200
1958 Reinders Vic Waukesha WI 200
1957 Bush Herb Canton IL 200
1956 Orlich Dan Reno NV 199
1955 Lilly Ned Stanton MI 200
1954 Petty Julius Stuttgart AR 200
1953 Waldock Fred Sandusky OH 200
1952 Etchen Rudy Ketchum ID 200
1951 Smith Ralph W. Vandalia OH 200
1950 Devers Joe Dayton OH 200
1949 Riegger Arnold Seattle WA 200
1948 Broughton John Ferguson MO 200
1947 Doughman Cliff Morrow OH 200
1946 Beaver Walter Conshohocken PA 199
1945 Pugh E. T. Morris IL 199
1944 Hiestand Joe Hillsboro OH 200
1943 Booher Orla C. Farmland IN 200
1942 Drennen William Utica NY 199
1941 Elliott Russell Raytown MO 199
1940 McNeir Forest Houston TX 200
1939 Harbage P. O. West Jefferson OH 200
1938 Hiestand Joe Hillsboro OH 200
1937 Miller Phil French Lick IN 200
1936 Hiestand Joe Hillsboro OH 199
1935 Hiestand Joe Hillsboro OH 199
1934 Beaver Walter Berwyn PA 199
1933 Lilly Ned Stanton MI 199
1932 DeWire M. E. Hamilton IN 200
1931 Maust Karl Detroit MI 199
1930 Payne Gus Cleveland OH 199
1929 Payne Gus Oklahoma City OK 199
1928 Arie Mark Champaign IL 198
1927 Dering Guy Columbus WI 200
1926 Jenny Sam Highland IL 199
1925 Crothers Steve Philadelphia PA 200
1924 Hughes Frank Mobridge SD 199
1923 Miller Phil Dallas TX 199
1922 Fauskee David Worthington MN 197
1921 Arie Nick Dallas TX 198
1920 Wright Frank S. Buffalo NY 197
1919 Wright Frank S. Buffalo NY 199

 

And to that end a person was inducted into a state hall of fame org with the lifetime achievement of being part of ruining that. I do not understand the motives of so many. jmho

 

I am not sure why anyone would except the honor of being in the HOF when what was listed as the major attribute for selection, is denied by the recipient, or seemingly so.

From MN HOF Website:

"Highpoints were; Jim Bradford, past ATA President, and Neil were able to get the misfire rule changed, and Neil was instrumental in getting the 3-hole target rule rescinded."

In a way that was apparently "instrumental", dumbing down (so to speak) a sport is considered a highlight that get one into the HOF. Just boggles the mind. imho

Who are these people that thought making the game easier would make it a better sport? Who are these people, that apparently, in many club meetings, wanted and asked for such a change of their delegate?

Shoot well.

John

 

Yup, much of that old ATA trap was shot over very readable traps where straightening out the angles was the norm or you could simply shoot what was thrown knowing where it was going to be. Then there were whole squads that perfected the art of "locking the trap". So smoking357, tell us more about your personal experience with trap in the 50's or 60's or any for that matter!

 

I suppose we can then say the dumbing down of trap began when we eliminated hand pullers and installed electric powered Western V1524's!

Anyone wanna go back?

 

Thank You HistoryBuff for the much involved history, I enjoyed the reading.

I would like to see the target settings of 1930 era re-instituted, those were competitive targets, it would humble most of todays All Americans.

DLS

 

Dr. Longshot,

I have to think those same names would be at the top of the leader board regardless of the target presentation, quite frankly they are better at pointing a shotgun than most. So I'm not sure what would be humbling about winning, regardless of the score.

 

Loudone

I may have to disagree with you for once. One reasons the targets were changed (or maybe not) on us was because the so-called great ones could not handle the wide angles. There was rampant cheating.

As posted earlier there is or was something called the program. If you could keep your precious average you could keep the valuable "hot" shells being delivered by the pallet. Some shady gun clubs were more than happy to throw the easy targets to those aspiring to be or keep all American status.

The system was working when the ATA chose to enforce the rules.

 

Family guy,

I have no knowledge of the program, I'm just speaking from personal experience. I shoot out west and the same group of guys tend to be at the top of the leader board. It doesn't matter if we are shooting ATA, sporting clays, fun shoots or flyers. I tend to think they have better eye sight, reflexes and just generally point the gun better. It's a sad state of affairs if the rules were changed to help a select few.

 

TTT

For the benefit of new members and visitors who may be interested in the history of the throwing of "soft" targets. Or aptly called "making the sport easier" and the transition from the 3-hole to 2-hole target.

Enjoy Our History !

HB

 

As a trap boy back in the sixty -Setting on a three-hole setting - non delay thrower. -Good teams very seldom shot hard rights or lefts -and if they did it was my fault for not being fast enough setting birds -- It was a true art, timing the machine to their squad. Keeping up with a good squad always meant at lease a fifty-cent tip.

 

Bump