Diminishing returns

I thought I'd run some numbers and make some conclusions. I'll start with the PSSA and maybe look at the grand. In 2003 PA had 1518 shooters shoot their State Singles Championship. In 2018 PA had 1055 shooters. 2018 had 463 (30.5%) fewer shooters. I shot my first state shoot in 1973, 45 years ago. If the rate of decline stays the same what can a new shooter expect over the next 45 years. In 2033 he can expect about 733 shooters. In 2048 he can expect about 509 shooters. Finally in 2063 he can expect about 254 shooters. Call it 51 squads. The squading problems will end in Elysburg. I just shot the VA State Shoot a few weeks ago. They easily ran 303 singles shooter over 14 traps. In 2063 PA should be able to run their 200 singles over 12 traps. Can you say "what do you want bank 1, 2 or 3"? Now I'll look for some Grand numbers and post them below.

 

The GAH had 3816 shooters in 2002 and 2003 in 2017. That is a 47.5% reduction over 15 years. In 2032 can we expect only 1051 shooters for the GAH? In 2047 GAH = 551 shooters and finally in 2062 we can expect 289 shooter for the GAH. For the new shooter of today the PA State Shoot could be bigger than the Grand in 45 years. In 2062 maybe the Grand's location will be scrambled if we still shoot trap in 45 more years.

 

ebsurveyor, Hopefully the organization will get some leadership that is focused on the organization and not on themselves by then. The lack of a qualified business plan is what is needed for the ATA to remain the leaders of the registered trap format. Of equal importance, the organization must obtain qualified leaders to make and execute the qualified plan
This must start with the purge of the line of promotion used by the EC. The shooters must elect qualified delegates, that are capable of doing the job they ask for. THEY MUST DO THE BIDDING OF THE MEMBERS, NOT THE EC. That is where the whole game went wrong. The life members were thrown under the bus, this would not have happened with qualified delegates.
Every state must revise their method of delegate selection. The persons that excepts the nomination should have time to let the state membership know his ideas for the EC to follow. Then the members at the state shoot will know who will do the job that they wish and who will not. Being a good shooter or a very nice guy is no recomendation for the job. In three years the strangle hold can be broken that we are now held in. Members it is time to stand up and be counted. Roger C.

 

This would have to change before a "State Delegate" could "do the bidding of the members" .....

From "N1H1" in thread http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...-property-committee-question.3864/#post-36436 .....

"You make up a bunch of duties that are not there. Your worst assertion is that that state delegate is held to the state association's view of where his or her loyalties must lie.

The position of Delegate is an ATA position, not a state position. He or she works for the ATA corporation, not the state corporation. If he or she finds the two in conflict, I guess resignation is a recourse, as is his replacement at the next state annual meeting."

"N1H1"

Any hope of "changing" the ATA needs to come from a "State" level ..... That can/will only happen if the "Delegate" is a "State" position, not just an ATA puppet .....

 

Dysinger was right!

 

The only other recourse is for the members to refuse to register targets with the ATA. Then get a new organization started, one that will work for the membership. Ohio, PA., Ca. hold the key to a new start up organization. Come on guys stand up and be counted. Roger C.
How hard would it be to couple with the PITA and expand into every state? It would not take many shooters in some states to eliminate the ATA in them. A 25% drop in ATA shooters would wake up the rest of the members. Roger C.

 

I think these trends (unfortunately) are consistent across registered trapshooting and more pervasive than any one single or small handfuls of shoots. Look what happened to the Missouri Fall Handicap, Golden West Grand, and Vegas shoots that folks here say should be the model for all shoots today. The non-registered winter leagues and calcutta shoots that we have here in eastern Ohio and western Pennsylvania have between 50 and 75% of the attendance they did in the 80s. We should all be thrilled with the success of youth shoots across the country and hope that these kids remain interested in trapshooting in the years to come.

You might not like all of their decisions but it seems like the PA folks have a sound business plan in place for growth of the shooting sports over the next 10 years and more.

 

Just Joe, has another option. The states do not need the ATA. All ties between the ATA and the state trapshooting association could be cut very quickly. The key to this option is for the states and their members to standardize the processes to be used so each state looks like and operates the same before the ties are cut.

 

JohnWick, A sound business plan is what the ATA needs. One or two states can not keep our sport alive by them selves. It will take leadership from the ATA'S executive com.. They do not want any help from the members and they are failing at doing anything to help the small clubs. If they are it is a well kept secret. THERE ARE SOME MAJOR CHANGES THAT MUST BE MADE IF OUR SPORT IS TO SURVIVE.The main one is return the delegates to working for the states and their members. If this is not done the organization will not survive much longer. Most trap shooters are not dumb. They know when they are being scammed and used.
On another note, ALL meeting minutes must be posted within 10 days so the members can see what is being proposed by the EC. Any changes should not take effect in less than 90 days from the EC posted date of the change. This would give the delegates time to hear from their state members, and if the members OK them to vote for the change the so be it.
Our sport is shrinking and many other shooting sports are growing. I wonder if the EC has noticed this. If the kids were not forced into the ATA the loss of shooters would be much greater. The direction for the last 15 years has been a steady drop in shooters. Not the fantastic direction that the members wanted is it.
Talk to your delegate and find out how he would feel about not working for the ATA EX Com., then let him know how you will vote in the next election. Roger C.

 

As I am seeing the whole thing, I am getting the idea a lot of us are getting along in years, and not many younger shooters are interested in TRAP shooting to take our places.

Those who can afford to keep shooting, migrate to the Sporting Clays courses and never return to Trap.

 

I think everyone shoots the same banks in "sporting clays".

 

Could you post the PA business plan. I could not find it on the PA website. I am very interested in what the PA business plan looks like.

Thank you.

 

Summary of the PA Plan: take trapshooters money and use it to build skeet fields.

 

This trend started about 1996 when the ATA first voted to go to 2 hole targets, then the radar gun, then take the money out of the sport to combat the pros. Butch when you were doing all your shooting, when we all were doing our shooting, did you consider yourself a pro or a money shooter?

Until and unless the targets are made harder and the money and integrity is returned to the ATA it will keep on it's ever increasing spiral to it's death. Why would any kid want to shoot registered targets? What is the great reward? Ribbons and flashlights never make the must do list for competitors. Shooting today is not fair. The million dollar campers who demand a bank in front of their motor home is what the ATA has become. And thank you flyer's, Yes Yes Yes I was right.

Sporting Clays has filled the competitors spot, and live birds are still king for the coin. 2000 plus kids at the SCTP shoot at the Cardinal Center this week SHOOTING TRAP, more than Skeet and more than Sporting but what's in it for them after this? No money, no glory, no competition. Just a bunch of arrogant Ass's running the National Organization.

Brad Dysinger

 

Hey Brad, time for another Little quote "don't listen to Dysinger". He was talking about the "head games" some thought you played while waiting to shoot. I was never a "pro" but I did play all of the money for a bunch of years back in the good old days. Sometimes you could even win enough to pay for some expenses. This is the first year ever, I'm now targets only. Can you believe guys are getting excited when a fifty pays a couple hundred bucks. Do you remember when 1099's started at shoots? Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Maybe I'll mop up in Sparta and get a 1099.

 

Put the bet money on Kay Lynn instead!

 

I don’t know if there is anything tangible to publicly post. If you talk to one of the Pennsylvania board members I’m sure they would be happy to explain it and get your input, just as they did for me when I asked. The basic idea is to continue to invest in the existing facility to attaract other shooting sports, in particular sporting clays. There seems to be a desire among the SC powers that be to have a facility in the NE part of the country that has the infrastructure to host regional, national, and international competitions. This, combined with smaller shoots, daily fee shooting, and corporate outings can provide a constant stream of revenue to support all the shooting disciplines well into the future. Despite Mr. Surveyor’s flip answer, I’m told there isn’t enough revenue just in skeet to justify the investment in skeet houses so unless the skeet folks bring their own money to the table there isn’t a strong justification to use existing funds. I’m also told there is a good chance of various local, state, national, and industry grants being awarded to assist in improving the facility.

 

Believe it or not, I agree almost 100% of what you posted here. The rotating gaggle of VPs that turn into presidents, especially folks that come from tiny Trapshooting states and wait ‘their turn’ is not a leadership strategy that any high performing organization would employ. I still don’t get why VPs and Presidents get an expense account. I’d be willing to bet that I (and many, many others on here) spend just as much time and personal expense volunteering at the club, local,and state levels with no expectation of reward other than a love of promoting trapshooting. Why all of a sudden when you become a VP do you get an ATA credit card with little-to-no oversight? If you can’t afford the job don’t do it.

One thing I do every year is to take the ATA expense report (and that is just what we know about, I’m sure the Executive Director expenses are off the charts as he covers a lot of the expenses for his ‘bosses’ and these never get publically shared) and calculate how many memberships need to be sold and daily fees need to be collected to cover all these expenses. I always wonder how much money the ATA would have if you went back 50 years, took all the ATA expense account moneyl, and invested it at 8% growth. I bet it would be enough to build a Sparta-like facility pretty much anywhere in the country, mortgage free.

 

News flash for the PSSA from someone that has walked & surveyed every square foot of the home grounds. On second thought I'll just ask a question. Where are you going to get the real estate to build a Sporting Clays Course?

 

John Wick, I may be mistaken, but my understanding is the ATA adopted an "Accountable Plan" for all of the expense reimbursements years ago? Who gets an expense account with no oversight?

 

Back in the day when I traveled with an ATA VP he got limited expenses to travel to some shoots. My understanding was the ATA President had unlimited expenses to go to shoots. One time my VP friend drove from Camp Hill PA to Phoenix for a shoot. The mileage reimbursement was great.

 

There are ways to bury illegal or questionable expenses for reporting purposes, just ask an auditor from one of the big four accounting firms.

 

You better make that fact known pronto as they already have permits and plans to begin building a SC course this winter on the existing property. I’m told the goal is to be shooting SC by May 2019. Maybe it’s time to take another walk?

 

They do have an accountable plan and I am optimistic that it is better than years past but in my opinion still not ideal.

Here is one realistic scenario: VP A, VP B, and VP C all decide to have a steak and lobster tail dinner. They invite the Executive Director to that dinner. At that dinner maybe they talk about ATA business, maybe they don’t. When the check comes, they ask the ED to put the dinner on his ATA corporate card since it was a ‘business meeting’. The ED’s expenses are only reviewed by the EC. Those 3 VPs have an unbreakable vote to approve those expenses as legitimate. The EDs expenses are never made public or reported on. In fact, those VPs could have a 30 second discusion on ‘should we throw orange or pink targets at the grand’ and instantly that expense becomes a Grand American expense buried in the P&L blackhole of grand reporting never to be seen again.

That is just one way of many the current plan can be abused.

 

Butch,

I believe the Sporting courses are going to be built along 487. I think the first one is going to be kind of near the rifle range on the northern edge of the property.

 

Thine will be done.

 

Hope the people that lives there doesn't mind when they start shooting in their back yard.

 

Will land have to be Requisitioned? Paid For?


GB................................DLS

 

I was thinking of a "world class" course like we shot on back in the '80s. It was on 3500 acres and took an hour or two just to walk the course. Walking only back then and no changing chokes allowed.

 

PA' facility is paid for and they are debt free.

 

Newbies given the choice generally choose Sporting Clays over trap....or skeet.

 

I am sorry on the PSSA, I was speaking about a Sparta Sporting Clays Course. Pa & OH have some of the very best sporting Clay Courses, they know how to build Excellent Courses w/tough shots.

GB............................DLS

 

I see a lot of the older guys who used to shoot registered trap, now they are more into skeet or Sporting clays because its more of a social type of shooting ... The last time I ventured up to the club the traps were backed up, skeet was going strong, and sporting clays must of had a shoot going because they were all over the place waiting their turn ... The board had a hoard of trap guns for sale or trade ... I was talking to one of the workers and he said registered trap seems to be slowing dying off based on the number of shooters they were getting ... There is no shortage of shooters that is for sure, just registered shooters ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

But what about the "Law of Unintended Consequences"? In this case, what happens when the sporties outnumber the trapshooters and trap becomes a revenue stream to support sporting? That happens.

 

Until there are some major changes in trap shooting I doubt there will be an influx of new shooters ... The reputation has been tarnished by the lack of actions that benefit the shooters ( members ) with the exception of a few rare cases ... The longer it goes on the less interested some of the old timers want to talk about shooting trap (registered ) , the new generation wants a prize for showing up, not to mention winning anything ... The ATA promotion of trap shooting is not working so they best come up with a better plan before its to late, any plan would be better than the one they don't have now ... ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Registered trap is dead in Phoenix, AZ. Ben Avery has canceled all of their registered shoots. They can not find anyone to run them. It is a shame that a city of millions of people can not have a registered shoot. I live near where the old Phoenix T&S club was. The nearest club that has registered shooting is 55 miles away. They could not have a well attended shoot. Not enough fields. When the Phoenix club folded, trap shooting started to decline and has been picking up speed every day. We lost Red Mountain, now Ben Avery, and Phoenix T&S three of the biggest clubs in the state.
Ben Avery has hundreds of shooters, but only a few registered shooters, Most do not want to get involved in the registering game. they need some incentive, but no plan to urge them on.
With the mess the EC has made out of the competition factor in trap why would any of us want to install a friend to join this over priced, and badly run organization. Roger C.

 

They should get in touch with Jennifer Mennetti from the old Red Mountain Club, this lady can run the shoots and they can make some money ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Roger,
I just called Ben Avery, as of last week they do have someone and there will be a winter chain shoot schedule for this year ... I talked to a lady by the name of Linda, said she was looking at the schedule ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

More lies and disinformation from certain people who’s sole purpose is to badmouth the ATA and try to destroy it.

If a person goes to the calendar of the Arizona Trapshooting Association, they will find ATA scheduled shoots at Ben Avery from October 2018 to April 2019.

Unfrickenbeliable.

 

AZCOTRAP, stick it where the sun does not shine, You are a mental midget, with the mind of a shit stirrer. That is probably the best side of you I wonder what the other side is like. I did look at the state program and B.A. was not listed. Roger C.

 

I was just informed my post was removed concerning Ben Avery and registered shoots. When I made that post Ben Avery was not listed as having any. I understand that has changed now. If I new that I would have edited that post my self.
AzCO, you get no editing. Roger C.

 

I asked Joe to put the post by Roger back so all is well ... Things have changed as of the end of last week according to Linda at Ben Avery and Ben Avery will be part of the Winter Chain ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Roger?

Did you think I was referring to you in my post?

 

azco,
I SURE DO. When I made that post it was true, it changed after my post. I do not like being called a liar especially by you.I do not know who you are, If I did I very sure I would not like You. Roger C.

 

From our 2016 Program and as of July 17th Skip is Full-Time after stepping down from Palmyra Gun Club. The goal is to have a Facility similar to Lehigh Valley Sporting Clays and capable of hosting Corporate Events and Large Tournaments. Once completed, we'll also be looking at adding Skeet Fields and other Clay Target sports.

 

If I’m still alive by the grace of God in 2063, the last thing I will be thinking of is the number of shooters at the PA state shoot

 

Maybe you could stop making false claims and I would not have to correct you? Or I could have kept quiet and we could have a nice ATA shoot without you if you stayed home believing your own BS about shoots at Ben Avery being cancelled? Maybe you you shoud,thank me for point out your BS error?

 

When he said it, it was not BS according to the lady at Ben Avery they just got that covered in the past few days ... Does it really matter, Ben Avery is on the schedule according to the people at Ben Avery now that they have secured someone to run it ... Prior to that they were not ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It was still a load of exaggerated BS when he posted it.

From Rogers Post:

“Registered trap is dead in Phoenix, AZ. Ben Avery has canceled all of their registered shoots. “

This is not true, the events were never removed from the calendar.

“The nearest club that has registered shooting is 55 miles away.”

Again not true, there are smaller clubs closer.


“Ben Avery has hundreds of shooters, but only a few registered shooters, Most do not want to get involved in the registering game. they need some incentive, but no plan to urge them on.”

More nonsense as written and little wonder with the constant blathering and harangue from people like Roger that constantly bad mouth the ATA.

“With the mess the EC has made out of the competition factor in trap why would any of us want to install a friend to join this over priced, and badly run organization. Roger C.”

A matter of very small opinion from a small mind and one that poisons the growth of the ATA. If you keep trying to kill the ATA saying it is dead, then it will die, you people want this to happen instead of getting off your lazy asses and fixing these problems you say exist.. You regurgitate the same BS to each other and keep it going.

 

AZCO, I have never poisoned the ATA, I have had a few concerns about the actions of the EC and BOD. I believe they are self serving and do not respect the members or their ideas.
Ben Avery did cancel the very first shoot that Paul did not run. and they were not listed as having shoots on the AZtrap web when I made my post that you said is a lie.
What club is nearer to Litchfield Park? please tell me.
If you think the EC has not made a mess out of the game, YOU ARE REALLY ARE ADDLE BRAIN THAT YOU APPEAR TO BE.
I have promoted the sport for the last 44yrs. What have you done but stir your $hit, Please tell us all what you think the EC and BOD have accomplished in the last 15 yrs. that has helped the sport. Please do this so we can all learn from you observances and intelligence, it may be of help to the concerned. Roger C.

 

I can remember when TS.com actually talked about trapshooting. The "glory days" of trapshooting bight be gone.

Guess you can't say somethings here.

 

The ED, EC, and many on the BOD have put the ATA on a path of self destruction by ignoring the members, not the other way around ... This path was started before the move from Vandalia by actions taken that caused many shooters to not attend even while they were still located in Vandalia ... The ATA has become a self serving enterprise that advertises promotion of the sport yet does not promote in any way that is obvious ... The ATA and many people would like nothing better than to lay the blame on the members who do not and will not support registered shooting and or attend the grand ... The ATA is supported every time a member signs up and pays a daily fee and can survive on these fees alone if it comes to that, until there is another shooting organization to take over this will continue ... The ATA has become a Cash Cow for the ED, EC and many on the BOD, this is not how it was supposed to be by design ... The ATA (members) is fully taken advantage of by those elected to represent the members as if that ever happens ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Hmmmm…..did you attend your state shoot this year? You are barely batting .500. Too far for you to support we hear. Like so many in my area I can walk to several clubs. I can drive to 100 in the morning. It is humorous listening to someone from a near non-shooting state tell us how to make trapshooting successful.

Azco is just another forum idiot without a clue.

 

The Phoenix T&S club was the hub of shooting in Arizona. Most of the other clubs were jealous of the Phoenix club and did very little to help us. we at Phoenix went to all of the other clubs shoots, most of them did not come to ours. I told everyone of those club owners that If Phoenix falls you can KISS the winter chain shoot good bye. I hate to admit it but I was correct. Many of the all American team members were at our chain shoots, after Phoenix closed many of them went to Florida. I do not blame them they could not make enough out here then to cover expenses. It was a great ride while it lasted, I'm thankful that I was apart of the hey day of competitive trap shooting.
I even had the pleasure of shooting with that RABLE rouser Brad Dysinger and that fine gentleman Leo Harrison. Keep your eye on them Brad they are a shifty lot. Roger C.

 

vanguard, We are the FOX news of the trap shooting sport. The other site is the CNN, of the fake news. I was banned from there for a post I made on here poking fun at one of their short fat mod's. You have got to be a real bad $ss to get banned from here.Even T.J. has survived on here. Roger C.

 

Yes you moron, I attended the State shoot in Grand Junction CO and also my other state of residence, AZ in March, this year of our Lord, 2018. My god, you are a dense person. I have told you this 3 time now. Are you a drunk? Use drugs much?