ATA UPDATE ON WORLD SHOOTING COMPLEX

Thank God its finally closed. Now WPT (yuck) and his band of HATERS can get along with life. What a burden they have lived with. OK go ahead and delete my post as you have all the others i have posted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Steve,

With all due respect, many of us have been concerned for the well-being of our sport, the Amateur Trapshooting Association and the Trapshooting Hall of Fame from the beginning. We understood all the potential problems on the horizon and felt the move was not in our best interests because the decision deviated too far from the crucial factors identified in the relocation criteria and the majority of ATA members desired that we own the property.

And for voicing our concerns we have been unfairly labeled as "haters" and "bashers." Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The question I asked myself when Sparta was chosen our new residence was : "If I wanted to operate a successful trapshooting facility or trapshooting museum, would I chose this location." There were just too many reasons for a "No" answer. It has nothing to do with friendly people of Sparta, Randolph County or the State of Illinois.

With the decision to relocate to Sparta, wouldn't it have been wiser to accept the adjoining property offered to the ATA and THOF for free by Peabody Coal and construct our own offices and museum ?

If I'm a "hater" . . . . . . . . I'd sure like to know why I'm worrying so much about our future!

 

History Buff if you labeled your self as a hater i have no idea. I dont recall you ranting and raving as some of the others here have. As you see i've not accused anyone except WPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No need to worry any way all my posts will some how be gone in a couple of hours???????? someone here doesnt like me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Steve (Johnson),
I am not a hater of Sparta, Illinois or the ATA for that matter, I am a realist and call them as I see them ... Some people like that and sometimes others do not care for that especially if our opinions are not the same or relatively close for that matter ... It is not and never has been my purpose in life to say things people like just because they like it if its not true and I know it isn't ... I'm kind of like "do not ask me if you do not want to know" type guys , people who know me know that and respect it or not that is their choice also ... History Buff explained it very nicely for you to be able to sort it out and deal with it ( He is a very nice and accurate man) or not that is totally up to you ... I explained my position on your other postings, and am not going to keep doing the copy and paste thing to make sure you see it ,which I can careless about also ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Steve; I can understand why people would not like you. However I do not even know you, so why should I not like you?

If you read the letter by Mr.Gipson, And comprehend what he is stating, you should not have any reason to get excited. The last paragraph indicates that all problems can still be taken care of. Even if plan "B" is put in motion it can be reversed.
I'm not sure if this is a message to the State of Ill. or if it is a message to alleviate the concerns of the ATA shooters. Either way if not understood it can upset many people. Roger C.

 

I have a much stronger opinion.

The wording of this letter shows that the money wasted on the HOF, $2.1 million, was an effort to create an anchor baby. They had the opportunity to put the HOF on free land. The first opportunity was at the CC. That property came with a $100,000 and deed. The second on the Peabody Coal property in Sparta.

Now we have Gipson with his letter implying how tragic this would be since they wasted the money.

I have yet to hear from a delegate that was told the HOF building was to be given to the state of Illinois.

There will be an investigation!

 

HistoryBuff, with all due respect as well, given the fact that the ATA was told that they could no longer count on using the property owned by the Dayton Airport to extend the trap line to host the Grand American, what should the ATA have done differently?

Basically, what the ATA knew for sure at the time was that 5000 shooters had attended the GAH a couple of years previously, and that the trap fields were too close together which caused a lot of problems with cross calls to the shooters. This would necessitate a trap line that had 100-120 traps and was a couple of miles long. This trap line would not likely have been served by people driving tractors pulling wagons to transport shooters, so more area would likely have been need behind the trap line to allow for shooter parking.

The campground needed to be expanded for those attendees that preferred to stay in motor homes or campers and infrastructure would have been needed for them. Buildings for registration, offices, vendors, washrooms, cafeterias, and more would have to be built.

Currently, the ATA has in the neighbourhood of $12 million dollars at its' disposal, far less ( you should have that figure at your finger tips HistoryBuff) 15 years ago. The cost of construction of the WSRC was in the area of $50 million dollars, but those costs also included the skeet fields, sporting clays layout, and other shooting venues. So conservatively, let's say the costs for the trap fields and infrastructure would be $25-30 million dollars including the land. Annual maintenance costs currently are in the $2 million area.

As someone who (I assume when you say we, you include yourself in that group) understood all the potential problems with the move to Sparta, and were aware of all the crucial factors identified in the relocation criteria, where would you have relocated the shooting facility that was capable of hosting the Grand American to, not knowing then what you know now? You are aware, I'm sure, of all the locations that were proposed to the ATA, and why they were rejected as suitable locations for the GAH. Which, of those locations, would have been the location that you would have chosen to be the site of the GAH?

Now that you have chosen the location, how would you go about paying the mortgage on that location as well as the ongoing maintenance costs? Doubling, or even tripling the current membership would not even approach making the payments on the liability, and imposing those costs on the members, many of whom (80-90%) will never attend the Grand, by way of higher fees is not an alternative.

I knew Tom Acklin, and he did everything in his power to keep the GAH in Ohio, in fact virtually spending himself into bankruptcy, in his search for a suitable site in Ohio. He took the approach that the GAH would leave Ohio, over his dead body. He died and the GAH went to Sparta.

 

Tom Acklin wanted Indiana, I knew Acklin well too. He poo poo'd the offers from the Ohio Division of Wildlife and the offer from Les Wexler. He did die broke, not from spending all his money on the ATA. Don't pretend that he wanted Ohio, he wanted Indiana. That being said Indiana was a much better choice than Illinois was, but don't make Acklin out to be a Saint. If you knew him as well as you say, you know what I'm talking about. Brad

 

Brad, was it a matter of poo pooing the offers from Ohio, or did the offers from Ohio not fit the criteria that the ATA had set out when they started their search. I am sure that you can appreciate the fact that when planning for a new venue, you have to plan to accommodate at least as many shooters that attended the old venue. So, based on 5000 shooters, what option in Ohio would fit that criteria? Even if he wanted Indiana, based on the proximity to the shooting population, some would say that it would have been a better choice. But #1, did it fit the criteria, and #2, how would the ATA service the debt?

 

Jo2,

"Currently, the ATA has in the neighbourhood of $12 million dollars at its' disposal, far less ( you should have that figure at your finger tips HistoryBuff) 15 years ago. The cost of construction of the WSRC was in the area of $50 million dollars, but those costs also included the skeet fields, sporting clays layout, and other shooting venues. So conservatively, let's say the costs for the trap fields and infrastructure would be $25-30 million dollars including the land. Annual maintenance costs currently are in the $2 million area." (Quoted for Jo2's post)

The ATA claims to have $12 million on hand and or invested, they didn't have $5 million when they made the move to Sparta, Ill so they built a nice account while the State of Illinois paid the bills and subsidized them ... The State of Illinois invested $31.4 or $31.7 millions dollars in the facility (depending on where you read and get the figures from) , not $50 million like everyone claims ... They stated at the time it was going to be a $50 million dollar , 10 year project so they must of had a lot of improvements in mind for this last year ... When you ride the "Gravy Train" sooner or later the train runs out of "Gravy" which is what happened here and someone woke up ... What did it really cost the ATA if you look at all of the numbers and lost supporters (members) ...?

"Annual maintenance costs currently are in the $2 million area" ( Quoted from Jo2's post )

The annual cost of operation and maintenance the State of Illinois claims is $3 million while the facility generates an estimated $1.1 million (annually), which creates a differential of $1.9 million dollars per year and will be more as the facility ages and needs more and more up keep on an annual basis ... The State of Illinois has lost over $23 million tax dollars over the past 11 years ... The facility is in need of major repairs based on what I was told by friends who attended this last grand and used up their 10 year lease ... They did not renew and have not considered it based on the increased amount of dollars the new leases will cost ... They said of the dozen or so who have attended and camped together only one renewed the lease ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


Texas offered free money, land, ownership, and low interest loans, the ATA treated them as if they were from a Third World Country and would not consider their offer ...

 

Once again two individuals with different opinions of history. Adding my two cents, Dayton didn't decide to push the ATA out overnight, the warning signs were pushed aside for some time with the thinking we'll get through this, the planned exapansion may not take place and we've still got a lot of time. So the ATA did waste time trying to decide if they really had to move. I believe there were options that while not perfect as first offered could have been made viable given time to work things out. So once again I guess I'm going with Brad on this one. Once Sparta and Rod showed up I believe the other options fell by the wayside quickly and it was full speed ahead with good old Illinois. Now this bullshit with the HOF really makes the old timers shake their heads.

 

The Problem
The World Shooting and Recreation Complex (WSRC) in Sparta, Illinois was completed in 2006 at a construction cost of $31.5 million (as well as another $18 million for road, water, and sewer improvement). The 1,600-acre facility includes 746 RV campsites, 120 trap shooting fields, and a 34,000 square foot events center.

The state-funded facility came fully loaded with high expectations. In August 2004, State Representative Dan Reitz said the World Shooting and Recreation Complex “will be the only state park in the state of Illinois that makes money.” In June 2005, the director of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources (IDNR), estimated the complex would bring the state about $50 million to $100 million in economic development each year, once up and running.

Has the Complex lived up to its hype? Not exactly. In fact, the Complex’s total projected revenue collection from fiscal year 2004 through fiscal year 2011 falls short of the total amount the state appropriated to the Complex by more than $1.5 million. The table below features the state expenditures for the Complex’s operation and maintenance as well as its imprest account, which is used to handle minor disbursements, such as awards for competitions. The categories of revenue for the complex include the WSRC Event Center/Mall/Tent etc., event income, concessions, camping related, sponsorship/advertising, shooting disciplines (individuals), shooting disciplines (groups), and gift certificates.

The expected benefit of increased economic activity has also not come to fruition. After the World Shooting and Recreation Complex opened in the summer of 2006, the raw sales tax data from the City of Sparta shows a slight decline in sales tax receipts in following years. When the tax receipts are adjusted for inflation, the decline becomes more dramatic, dropping below 2002 levels.

Our Solution
Projects such as the Sparta World Shooting and Recreation Complex are often touted for their potential to stimulate economic development, but they are rarely analyzed to see whether or not they have lived up to their boosters’ high expectations. The Sparta World Shooting and Recreation Complex should be taken off of the state dole, and similar projects should be avoided in the future.

Why This Works
State and local government should focus on delivering core services, especially in difficult economic times. Rather than attempting to spur economic development with complex and costly projects, the state government should focus on improving the business climate via tax and regulatory reform. By decreasing the cost of doing business in Illinois, the state can attract entrepreneurs and businesses that will drive sustainable job creation and economic growth.



I googled the WSRC in Sparta, seems like the State has realized what a mistake they made WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Jo2,
I appreciate your conviction and respectful questions and I’ll offer you my honest opinions. See your questions an my answers below.

“HistoryBuff, with all due respect as well, given the fact that the ATA was told that they could no longer count on using the property owned by the Dayton Airport to extend the trap line to host the Grand American, what should the ATA have done differently?” You are correct that Blair Conrad and the Dayton International Airport (DIA) made it pretty clear that we would be losing about 39 trap fields due to the proposed construction, runway extension and FAA safety rules. For decades the ATA had discussed its future relocation.
To answer your question, I believe the ATA had several opportunities to own a shooting facility and that’s the position taken by a majority of ATA members throughout our history. In 1973 they rejected an offer to hold the deed for the Linn Creek, MO property which hosts the Missouri State Shoot. Personally, I favored the Indiana site at Shelbyville. It wasn’t perfect but it had potential, fit the parameters established for relocation and I was certain that if the ATA owned the property, our membership would offer their support to make it succeed. This support may have come in stages, but there were State Associations and individual members who pledged to cover the expense of installing trap fields. But in the most exacting response I can offer to your question is that making a move in desperation is usually not the appropriate decision.

“Basically, what the ATA knew for sure at the time was that 5000 shooters had attended the GAH a couple of years previously, and that the trap fields were too close together which caused a lot of problems with cross calls to the shooters. This would necessitate a trap line that had 100-120 traps and was a couple of miles long. This trap line would not likely have been served by people driving tractors pulling wagons to transport shooters, so more area would likely have been need behind the trap line to allow for shooter parking.” I am in total agreement with your first sentence but your 5,000 number regarding GAH participants can only be attributed to the 100th Grand American tournament in 1999. The average participants in the GAH event during the previous 9-years was 4307 and the last 6-year period had been on an annual decline. And subsequent to the 100th Anniversary, the participation stabilized at about 3800 shooters for 3-years only to continue to decline to 3232 in the year 2005, showing the average participation in those 6-years at 3694 entrants. So, I must respectfully dispute your second and third sentences.

“The campground needed to be expanded for those attendees that preferred to stay in motor homes or campers and infrastructure would have been needed for them. Buildings for registration, offices, vendors, washrooms, cafeterias, and more would have to be built.” I also respectfully dispute the above claims.

“Currently, the ATA has in the neighbourhood of $12 million dollars at its' disposal, far less ( you should have that figure at your finger tips HistoryBuff) 15 years ago. The cost of construction of the WSRC was in the area of $50 million dollars, but those costs also included the skeet fields, sporting clays layout, and other shooting venues. So conservatively, let's say the costs for the trap fields and infrastructure would be $25-30 million dollars including the land. Annual maintenance costs currently are in the $2 million area.” First, I don’t know that the ATA in fact does have approximately $12 million dollars at its disposal. I have read that our organization has assets of that approximate number but I don’t know the value in dollars available for use.

If my recollection is correct I seem to remember the ATA having one of our members (I believe) in the design business, brought in his crew, measured the entire Vandalia operation and reported that to replicate the existing buildings and trap fields at another location was approximately $11 million dollars. I don’t think we would use unionized labor for construction, office staff and maintenance if the ATA were to build their own facility so again, I must respectfully refute your opinion.

Remember, we were able to pay our bills at the Vandalia property from 1924 to June 2012 when the offices at 601 W. National Road were finally vacated.

“As someone who (I assume when you say we, you include yourself in that group) understood all the potential problems with the move to Sparta, and were aware of all the crucial factors identified in the relocation criteria, where would you have relocated the shooting facility that was capable of hosting the Grand American to, not knowing then what you know now? You are aware, I'm sure, of all the locations that were proposed to the ATA, and why they were rejected as suitable locations for the GAH. Which, of those locations, would have been the location that you would have chosen to be the site of the GAH?” As stated above and I repeat, while not perfect by any means, I voted for Shelbyville, Indiana. I asked several times about rumored properties in Ohio and was told there were no offers except the property west of the DIA. I’ve since been advised that there were offers that never brought to the attention of the Board of Directors. I have never obtained written proof of these claims so they must be treated as rumor.

“Now that you have chosen the location, how would you go about paying the mortgage on that location as well as the ongoing maintenance costs? Doubling, or even tripling the current membership would not even approach making the payments on the liability, and imposing those costs on the members, many of whom (80-90%) will never attend the Grand, by way of higher fees is not an alternative.” I have a viable answer to this question. Our organization did not have the finances to purchase a new homegrounds. Those who served in leadership positions should have constructed a Master Plan Committee responsible for an annual discussion and amendments necessary and relative to our future. I recall the establishment of relocation fees and that was a start.

You raise an important point regarding the Grand and while I am passionate about our history and would not wish to break the annual tradition of holding this wonderful tournament, the Grand is not the ATA. The support groups called the membership, State/Provincial associations and member gun clubs are the ATA. I must place the greatest importance on these groups and not the Grand American Handicap tournament for the success of our organization.

“I knew Tom Acklin, and he did everything in his power to keep the GAH in Ohio, in fact virtually spending himself into bankruptcy, in his search for a suitable site in Ohio. He took the approach that the GAH would leave Ohio, over his dead body. He died and the GAH went to Sparta.”
I’m willing to accept your premise that Mr. Acklin worked diligently to keep the GAH in Ohio, but I never got that impression from the few times I heard him speak. You see, I was a Delegate in attendance at the annual meeting when Mr. Acklin made his presentation in favor of the Shelbyville, Indiana site for relocation of the ATA. I heard the entire speech, even the remark about “Joey Bag of Donuts,” which I thought was inappropriate and actually diminished his lecture. And I, like several other Delegates favored Indiana over all other sites.

The majority of the BOD eventually voted to relocate the GAH and offices in Sparta and I’ve accepted that. I think I attended the first 7 tournament at the WSRC before I lost my desire to shoot. However, I still have an opinion regarding the decision and I believe I have every right to express it. I’m not asking you to agree with me. I only ask: "Would you make the decision, using your own money, to relocate your business operations to a sparse location if your financial future depended on it?"

From the beginning I believed that the Sparta location would never produce the infrastructure to allow growth of the GAH tournament. Of course this could change if and only if a group of investors with deep pockets decided to purchase the WSRC at a fair price with a plan to diversify its operation to perhaps include a Theme and/or Water Park as well as other attractions that would ensure an adequate return on investment. That would now give cause for other groups to construct new hotels, restaurants and other new businesses.

Unfortunately I don’t see this happening.

Now, if you are interested in my opinion about the Trapshooting Hall of Fame relocating to the World Shooting and Recreational Complex where they have asked supporters to fund the construction of a $2 million dollar office and museum that they will not own, but pay property taxes and all expenses for displays, utilities and repairs, I’d be happy to offer it as well. Perhaps you can already surmise what I think of this deal.

Kenny Ray Estes,
ATA 88-00249

 

More from the Governor of the State of Illinois :


In light of the Illinois General Assembly’s failure to send him a balanced budget, Gov. Bruce Rauner announced another round of spending reductions on June 12 to better manage the state’s precarious finances.

Included on his list is a suspension of operations for a shooting complex run by the Illinois Department of Natural Resources. Effective Sept. 1, all operations at the World Shooting and Recreation Complex in Sparta, Illinois, would cease and the facility would be closed to the public.

As detailed by the Illinois Policy Institute in a 2010 “Spotlight on Spending” brief, the facility has fallen short on many fronts:

“The World Shooting and Recreation Complex (WSRC) in Sparta, Illinois was completed in 2006 at a construction cost of $31.5 million (as well as another $18 million for road, water, and sewer improvement). The 1,600-acre facility includes 746 RV campsites, 120 trap shooting fields, and a 34,000 square foot events center.

“The state-funded facility came fully loaded with high expectations. In August 2004, State Representative Dan Reitz said the World Shooting and Recreation Complex ‘will be the only state park in the state of Illinois that makes money.’ In June 2005, the director of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources (IDNR), estimated the complex would bring the state about $50 million to $100 million in economic development each year, once up and running.

“Has the Complex lived up to its hype? Not exactly. In fact, the Complex’s total projected revenue collection from fiscal year 2004 through fiscal year 2011 falls short of the total amount the state appropriated to the Complex by more than $1.5 million. …

“The expected benefit of increased economic activity has also not come to fruition. After the World Shooting and Recreation Complex opened in the summer of 2006, the raw sales tax data from the City of Sparta shows a slight decline in sales tax receipts in following years. When the tax receipts are adjusted for inflation, the decline becomes more dramatic, dropping below 2002 levels.”

The Sparta complex was also featured in the Institute’s 2010 and 2012 “Piglet” books, which detailed wasteful spending across the state. Illinois spent over $3.3 million on the complex in 2012.

Rauner had previously not marked the Sparta complex for reduction, having made a budget recommendation this spring that kept the next fiscal year’s appropriation at the same level as the current-year level of $3.4 million.

By failing to transmit a balanced and constitutional budget to the governor, House Speaker Mike Madigan and Senate President John Cullerton are ultimately the ones responsible for the disruption caused by last-minute reductions – changes that could have otherwise proceeded in a more orderly fashion.

Taxpayers in a broke state should not be footing the bill for a local shooting complex. Illinoisans should hope this common-sense cut survives budget negotiations in the coming weeks.



Taken from the States web site and posted ... Respectfully, WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

We must not forget they 'fixed' the "problems" with the sign on the wall during the Grand. There are even pictures of the sign as proof the "Executive Director" was earning his 116k.

BTW ... "The Event Center and Restaurant remain open, as do the year-round vendors on the grounds"... at the NON-Shooting Complex. Keeping the "year-round vendors on the grounds" open serves the best interest of the ATA members.

 

If people remember the first time Sparta was suggested as a location for the ATA it was rejected the prime reason as I remember was the location in the middle of nowhere without any local accomodation. The second presentation which came later at the same time as Indiana and Texas was accepted after Indiana and Texas were turned down.
I also like HistoryBuff heard of property in Ohio that was never brought forward (again hearsay). This left the ATA with nowhere to turn hence the move to Sparta Illinois

 

There were 3 sites in OH. Acklin chose not to present them.
Also you may wish to note they were throwing registered birds at the CC before Sparta.

 

Steve....you seem a bit miffed. Blaming a band isn't going to help. It is more like a symphony.

A very large symphony.

 

I only wish my friends at one of the proposed sites could have videoed the whole process. Even if we had such a video, some wouldn't believe what was to be offered. I know this area well as I've hunted grouse and deer on it thru my younger years. This proposal was never mentioned by Tom Acklin because he didn't stick around long enough to hear what was about to be given to ATA! Got in his car and promptly left the grounds without as much as an introduction to all the state, power co. excs, Oh. national guard and the NRA there to help us out! What a shame!

HAP

 

Hap,

That's one of the stories I heard also. For historical purposes, it would be nice to obtain written recollections from those involved with and or first hand knowledge of land offers to the ATA.

Those who know me are aware that I value my personal integrity at the highest level and would never knowingly offer deceptive or inaccurate information. I've referred to offers of land that were declined by the Amateur Trapshooting Association in the past and to help anyone who might be a little skeptical of my references, I'll provide my source.

My source for stating that the ATA turned down the Linn Creek property in 1973, is from the ATA's own minutes. It's bizarre that Linn Creek is now being considered as one of several locations for a Telephonic Grand American.




Enjoy Our History

 

I get way to much credit for bringing things to light, "A very large symphony" . I am but one person of many who is not, was not, and will not be blinded by the lights and fed the BS that was handed to the members by the then EC and BOD ... I cannot take all of the credit but was, am, and will be very interested to see what happens from here ... The relocation to Sparta (Illinois) never was the way to go which has proven itself a number of times by the attendance to continue to drop off, the State losing unheard of millions of tax dollars since the opening ceremony, and the list goes on and on as time goes by ... The people of the State (republicans as well as democrats ) are totally upset and frustrated by the States involvement in a shooting facility and the amount of tax dollars invested in it ... Some say its a play ground for the rich funded by the State while the schools cannot get funding which should be a priority (State of Illinois web site) not to mention medical needs and the States lottery program that is supposed to be used for the schools and is now being sued for non payment of to many of the winners ... This does not look good for any future at this time, hope and pray for them to come to an agreement soon, very soon ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Oh, boo hoo hoo hoo. Woe is us, woe is us. Reminds me of the old man in the movie The Good Earth with 20-20 hindsight. "I predicted it, I predicted it. Oh woe is us."


You did post one thing correct, "the then EC and BOD." The fact that they are mostly gone still mystifies, why we post threads 24/7 about them. Living in the past destroys any hope of your future.

 

Here is another:


Living in the past is like scratching a wound. If you don't leave it alone, it will never go away. Let it heal, accept the scar and move on with your life.

 

Sounds like an admission that WPT and others were right all along. I suppose the correct response by some is let's run away from the truth because it bit us in the a-s!!

 

This is just another rumor that I heard a few years back. When Mr. Acklin pass away he was destitute. Could this be because of his purchasing land in Indiana at the site he was pushing for the Grand to move to. I have never check to see if this was true or not so please do not take this as fact. Roger C.

 

HB, my wish for a nonexistent video of the proceedings I mentioned above was just that, a wish. The man and his wife passing this information along to me, I've known since my beginnings as a trap shooter. This man and his wife were there representing the OSTA and the offers from many outside sources. You see this man was at the time the OSTA President accompanied by his wife who witnessed this fiasco also.

He was so disgusted with what took place that day he quit shooting registered targets and has not to this day shot another ATA target that I'm aware of. He was employed by the power company offering this land. To this day, he doesn't even like talking about what happened that day without turning an anger red.

Had this story been relayed to me by most anyone else, I simply wouldn't have believed it either. I know these people well enough and trust them enough to know they didn't lie to me about this fiasco!

Tom Acklins response after looking around? "This property looks exactly like the property at Sparta", turned away, got in his car and drove off. This after not even being introduced to all the dignitaries the flew in via helicopter to make the presentations to ATA and the OSTA? He simply was rude in his actions, period. The power co. officials and others present to give help merely got in their helicopters and flew away. The rest is history as it always is.

HAP

 

Here's another offer of land that was not widely publicized and/or quickly forgotten. The source is the head of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources. It may have been a better deal and at least with both organizations owning their property and buildings, more of us would be more favorable to making donations, both financial and artifacts.






Enjoy Our History

 

Evidently #5 above was done away with!!

HAP

 

Why was there any interest in Linn Creek in 73' anyway? Was the ATA considering moving in 73'?

 

Rosey, I recall reading in Trap&Field around that time frame an article concerning our outgrowing the Vandalia facility. That and one day we would be forced to move our home grounds. I don't recall the exact year that was written though.

HAP

 

WPT, thanks for the lesson in hindsight. My question was, which of the proposed sites that were brought forward, would you have chosen to replace the location for the Grand, given the criteria previously outlined? Where in Texas, was this land offered that was an option that wasn't pursued? Was it close to an airport, main thoroughfares, close to restaurants, and accommodations, or was it in the middle of nowhere like Sparta, as you enjoy pointing out daily? Or can this Texas site be lumped together with the 3 mythical Ohio sites that some people speak of?

HistoryBuff, I agree, that the ATA should have probably acted in a more proactive manner when it came to planning for future relocation. Unfortunately, they didn't, and were put in a situation that, if they didn't want to have an interruption in the GAH, had to be acted on in a relatively short period of time.

We will have to disagree on how many trap fields the planned facility would need. Again, without benefit of hindsight, any forward thinking organization would have, or should have, planned for an increase in business when planning a new venue. I will also stick to my contention that there are better ways for shooters to get to their traps, than tractor drawn carts.

Even if the infrastructure costs were only $11 million dollars and the land needed to be purchased, there is still a significant shortfall between what the organization had, and what was needed to complete this venture. A shortfall, large enough, that at that time, the EC was not comfortable financing.

And finally, Family Guy, regardless of the fact that the CC is a great place to shoot, it was not large enough, without benefit of hindsight, to host a shoot with 5000 shooters, 3694 shooters, or even 3232 shooters to use HistoryBuff's numbers.

 

Jo2
Sparta never had 3000 in an event. The grand was held in Vandalia with the same number of traps the CC has now.
You did not need hindsight. You needed common sense.

The CC was built for the crowds it would get and had the ability to expand. Sparta was built for crowds it would never get. The hay wagons were part of the appeal of Vandalia. 5,000 shooters vs the 1700 Sparta could attract.

Your pals have reduced the sport to rubble. It may not matter now.

 

Family Guy,

If you re-read HistotyBuff's post, the problem of needing to relocate Vandalia was documented as far back to 1973. Past EC' and BOD's representing the membership, kicked that can down the road for the next EC and BOD to handle, but until it became a must do or else situation. The entire membership including you are the reason for the current location of Sparta.

 

Jo2,
The site in Texas was 14 miles ( close) to a major airport, and infrastructure with (from recall) over 10,000 rooms and restaurants of your choice from fast food to fine dining ... Jimmy Borum and Jeff (Pridge ??) had all of the particulars at one time ... There was nothing "mythical " about it and as stated before the ATA treated the Good Folks from Texas as is they were from a "Third World Country" to the point of ignoring their existence ... This was before the WSRC building stages began ... The ATA had a list they paid to have drawn up to represent "Due Diligence" for the new site and they avoided it by entering in a lease agreement rather than purchase with the State of Illinois ... If you would of been around back then you surely would of heard about it being as it was not a secret ... The ATA was to be the owner of the site, not renters which would of probably gotten them additional support from members when all was said and done ... That was then, this is now and you can plainly see where we are today as you sit in front of a locked gate waiting to see if anybody shows up for the grand in 2016 ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

And you share the blame too, WPT.

 

When I was TD at the Cardinal Center I always figured we could run between 5 and 6 squads an hour per bank. I think we had 40 program traps the first year so that meant we ran about 250 to 300 shooters per hour. Singles are always faster than handicap, but this is a good estimate of what a well run, well staffed club should expect (4 traps of 25 are always faster than 2 traps of 50 by the way). There are many reason you can do this but I'm not going into that here.


The CC also had 4 practice traps for 44 total in 2006 but has 52 today. In 2006 we could have expected to run 2500 to 3000 shooters through for a hundred bird event given the daylight hours we have at that time of year.. I don't think Sparta has ever approached that number.

Les Wexnar offered to build a club for the ATA on old US 40 between Xenia and Columbus. The deal was he'd buy the ground, build the place and lease it to the ATA for $1 a year for 30 -33 years, I can't remember the exact number, then sell it to the ATA for a buck after that time. The EC said no. Acklin was the EC go to guy on this. Wexnar is a trap shooter, he has given a couple of hundred million dollars to the Ohio State University. They took his offer, Acklin didn't. That offer was there before the CC too. Jimmy Forsbach worked for him and was his friend. I can remember shooting with Jim at Vandalia one year and Les following us down the line watching our squad. When I was on the OSTA board I personally tracked down Wexnar's lawyer and he filled me in on the main thrust of the deal. I still have his number on my cell phone too. He told me that he could tell by looking in the ATA guy's eyes that they had no interest, and that in fact they never got back to them. Yea or nay just never got back. Didn't bother, didn't care, didn't respond.

The Wexnar deal was the best I personally know about, but then along comes Jack, who I think basically saved Ohio trap shooting at its darkest hour. The only reason Jack built 40 traps in the first place was because that is what the osta asked him for, he expanded to today's 52 trap fields when I was on the board and the osta asked him to expand. Jo2 Jack has always been there to answer the call when the osta asked and I'm sure in 2006 he would have went ahead and expanded then if the ATA would have been dealing with him as the osta was but considering how they treated Wexnar do you think they would have delt with Jack then. It was SPARTA BOUND in their minds.

Knowing the History of Sparta and what it did to the ATA can't be swept under the rug. The ATA had already started to slip in the 90's, easier targets for one example, but when saving Sparta became the driving force behind the EC it became the cancer on trap shooting it is today. Look at the descisons EC's have made trying to get more grand american shooters. The 2 yards off, not once but twice, that screwed up the handicap events, the ribbons for everyone, the categories, the 300 plus all american team members and topped off by building the HOF museum on an anti gun state's property and then giving it to them without letting the donor's know that. The list goes on and on.


Brad Dysinger

 

wow! I've got a lot of catching up to do in my TOTAL absence of over missing some 30 years. Just starting now to get the gist of all these discussion's.
Somewhat mind boggling at times. Thanks for posting all this info Brad.

 

Jimmy Forsbach is a top shelf guy all the way, he actually told me he would buy my targets, lunch and dinner if I would come and shoot in Sparta ... I respectfully declined based on the fact that I stated at one time a long time ago I would never shoot a target at the WSRC in Sparta, but might stop by to meet him face to face and buy him dinner ... I talked to Jim many times over and totally respected the man and always wanted to make it a point to meet him face to face, unfortunately he has since passed away ... I regret not meeting him and feel its truly a loss on my part ... Brad pretty much sums it up in the above posting, the ATA was and is the cause of their problems and until they get back to reality it will continue to fail ... I was going to say I hope none of them (ATA, EC and BOD) are holding their breath while waiting to see if anything is going to come about for the 2016 grand, but after a second thought I wish they would hold their breath until ... Keep doing the same thing over and over, expect a different results and see where that gets you ... The WSRC proved to be a loser the very first year in operation, but sometimes a business takes time to become a success, after being a hole to dump money in for over 10 years someone better wake up and realize that its over and time to move on ... If the WSRC does open for the grand in 2016 I got a feeling it won't be worth anyone's time to attend after all the problems and no solutions ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT Jimmy told Dave Berlet and me the same story at lunch one day and then gave me the name of Wexnar's man to call and check about the offer to Acklin. I did call and he told me the same story basically word for word as Jim did. I wish I'd have known about it back in 2004 but I didn't find out until about 2010 or 11.

I'm sure there are many trap shooters who had dealings with Jim that know what he did behind the scenes, cash wise, for shooting and never wanted exposure and in fact asked not to have any. Jim is one of the guys I miss talking to, too many of them anymore to add up.

Brad

 

Shut up and drink the Kool Aid!

 

Brad's story is the best written "happenings" of the information I have seen or heard of.

Thanks Brad for explaining this.

Health issues don't permit us to travel up to the north lands any more, but I certainly hope our paths cross again sometime so we can sit and chat.

Back in 2010 I took our old friend Lynn "Doc" Parsons around all day on a cart during the Ohio state shoot at CC. He introduced me to you, and it was a real pleasure to see and meet such a storied and admired shooter such as you.

Between you and HB, we can rely on facts....

Thanks, Dave

 

Bump since topic is being discussed

 

This aged well.