ATA May Get It All

The ATA and Gipson may soon get it all. They may soon be able to make all the decisions and along with that, pay all the bills. Illinois will soon be putting the WSC in the rear view mirror and completely abandoning the huge promises of mega attendance and vast sales tax collections the ATA had promised. Just another bad decision on the part of Illinois politicians but perfect for those Kool Aid drinkers who are currently thanking shooters for giving up their campsites. I just love it when a plan comes together and it appears soon Mr. Gipson will be able to call all the shots. Of course a little funding may be required but that's a small hurdle for a big stepper. I'm sure the happy new campers will step up big time. I mean they're so happy now.

 

The ATA will become extinct in less than 10 years ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

This site should be renamed "Crap Talk" vs Trap Talk.
Talk about Kool Aid drinkers, it's all you doom and gloom guys who are drink the stuff and feed off eachothers negativity.

 

Unfortunately Bill, you are probably right. At the rate things are going right now it will more than likely be a lot less than that... It really is sad.....

 

You know it's challenging to see corruption, or the appearance of corruption, and not point it out.

I've taken time to do some research into some of the alligations members here have made aganist the ATA's leadership.

Go to youtube and watch Paul Shaw explain to his members in Canada how the ATA removed him from an oversight committee looking into the behavior of the ATA leadership. The list goes on and on, look into it yourself.

So yeah, being negative all the time is no fun to be around. But it's also just plain dumb to hide one's head in the sand and pretend that everything is okay when it is obviously not.

Serious question, if you were the head of an organization the size of the ATA that is having financial/cashflow issues, do you think it might be a good example to set by not accepting a $10k-$12k gun out of the organization's pocket? (Especially knowing the leader has his own firearms business and thus could afford most any gun he wants at wholesale prices,.....)

The challenge is to witness the negativity yet not focus fully upon it. (At least in my view)

Me personally, I would not buy a box of shells from Lynn Gipson.

 

Soon the Kool Aid drinkers will start to understand the reality of the future of the ATA and the WSC. Soon thereafter many on this site will be tagged as the ones responsible for all the problems associated with the ATA and Sparta. Most of the moronic lemmings will never take a close look at themselves and understand the warning signs have been there all along. They were to so blinded by emotion they never had a rational thought and it's doubtful that will change.

 

So the ata is going to RENT the place.

Anyone remember that little "meeting" I imagined back in April?

Well I don't give a rats ass about how it's supposed to get better. What do they think this is, Field of Dreams? We build it and they will come? Well guess what boys? We built it and it and it looks to me like they ain't coming.

OK, OK, settle down. How are we going to save some money on this place?

Hey, I have an idea. Just thinking out loud but what if we get rid of the salary for that guy Ashbrook? It's not really much when you consider how much we put into that place but it's a start.

HEY, I know, lets privatize it. See if some company or even a private citizen whats to own it. We can dump it on them. Let them charge more to try and get a return on their investment. Gets us out from under.

I don't know about a private citizen buying it. I heard some family dumped a ton of money, their own money, into prizes or something and after a few years they stopped that. Didn't bring in near as many people they thought it would.

Why don't we try and get that big group the ATE or whatever they call themselves to rent it from us.

That's ATA

Whatever, ATE, ATA, KMA, I don't care.

Well, all I know is that place sure isn't working out the way we hoped. Just who's idea was it to build that place anyway?

That doesn't matter now. All that matters is we have to figure out some way to unload that place.

That meeting probably never really happened. Just thinking out loud.

Then again......

 

Reports are closer to $20,000.00.

 

Flyers - I should warn you that you're really getting yourself in big trouble again but then I realize there's no one left for you to get in trouble with.

 

What do you mean again? More like, still.

 

Hate to tell you this Flyers but they probably have you on the list of those responsible for the pending demise of the ATA.

 

WPT, I do not think 10 yrs. a good number. How long do you think it will take to burn through $12,000,000.? If they take on the full load at Sparta, I think 10 yrs. would be way to long. They should cut the losses and move to another venue, even if it must be primitive compared to the World Shooting Center. It would be an ATA owned facility. With twelve million and a no frills run organization we could rebuild the ATA to a quality managed business. Running it like a piggy bank for the good ole boy's club has not worked for the membership, lets try a new approach. Or should we call it a fall back to original intent of the founders? Roger C.

 

The ATA should take into consideration the signature sponsors donations added to the present $12,000,000. and consider other options for the money. Like owning the home grounds. If it means one year with no Grand so be it. We could start building for the future. With a new outlook and honesty as the back bone of the operations. Roger C.

 

F n Guy,

The people that can see the problems with the ATA are not the kool-ade drinkers. The people that are to trusting to see the graft that has wormed its way into our sport are the problem. Wake up to the reality that mistakes have been made and they must be corrected. The main problem is the ATA has been structurured to protect the staus quo. If you look at the EC BOD chain of progression to the ruling body, it will take about 10 years to vote competent people in to the ruling body. Starting with the state delegates. I do not think the organization can with stand the poor decisions for that length of time, or the under the table deals that have been uncovered recently some of the men now in place in the ATA.We need the honest men to step up to the plate and make changes in the organization that will ensure the ATA again is the life blood of the trap shooters around the world. The question is do they have the balls to clean up the bad apples in the barrel. I'm sure they all read this site. I challenge you men to step up to the plate and be men of honor. This is a plea for your action to help get the ATA back on the right track
Surely there are men that can do the honorable thing and act correct the problems that haunt the honorable halls of the ATA. Roger Coveleskie

 

Well said. It seems obvious that you are a honorable man Roger.

 

Roger, I would be for the ATA owning their home grounds but I would wonder where that would be and how much would it cost? Would they start small and add money as it became available? Would it be in Sparta or another location in a gun friendly state. Would they need to own or could they work a multi year lease? My personal feeling is that Sparta is in a unfriendly gun state and little to remote to work. Put the location near the largest trapshooting population and you'll have the best chance of success. You are right they may have to miss a year while a new facility is made ready but it would definently be worth it. There were other locations that were ignored before so I believe there still would be options if the correct amount of effort was put into finding them.

 

I would think for the sake of the Organization the ATA would or should go back to basics and not worry so much about a certain shoot (the grand) and put forth so much effort and money to bother with it ... The ATA could move the grand around to other clubs and if need be make it an invitational shoot ... The details could no doubt be worked out and some of the "other" clubs could benefit by hosting the shoot for those who want to attend ... The facility is Sparta has proven itself as a loser so rather than associate with a loser move on and make it a worth while shoot to attend again ... The ATA and State of Illinois best understand that shooters just are not going to come to that region by the numbers they need to make it successful ... The State has already realized it being as they want to separate them self from being involved with the shoot (facility) anymore or so it seems ... If you keep doing the same exact thing over and over , do not expect to get a different results any time soon because its not going to happen ... If a business does not or cannot prove itself in the first 5 years it should be obvious to anyone with a little common sense and logic that it is not going to get any better, in this case its been 11 years and it only continues to get worse ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Could get interesting in the next few months. The ownership of Sparta is and has been a topic bounced around for awhile. Now it seems there is a small group of ATA inner circle mucky mucks who are working on a plan to purchase the WSC for around 7 or 8 million. I'm sure they're hoping for their "Signature Sponsor" to help. Can't help but wonder how long the ATA could own and run it before everything is gone. Sparta turned out to be a little to far off the beaten path for shooters unless you have a camper so I can't help but think any money put in isn't coming back.

 

Great! This is probably great news for those invested in the Cardinal Center.

Nothing like watching some people standing around a dead cow taking turns kicking it to see if it will get up. Stupid dead cow kickers.

In the meantime there are people in Ohio that are doing their darndest to make the SCTP happy. They have a full slate at the CC. A summer full of shoots. And another in the fall. They know they can compete with anything in Sparta. The schedule is packed.

Those guys at the CC are praying that cow gets up. They can compete with that cow. It keeps falling and cant get up.

 

Seitz9010, Does the rumor pertain to all shooting venues or only the trap concessions and the camp grounds? I hope it is not for the whole thing. The property taxes will be pretty high, the upkeep also. I hope they make a good decision on this one. They are running out of chances. Roger C.

 

The comment I heard was they thought they could buy the whole thing from the state for 7 or 8 million. They just don't have the money and I don't think anyone is thinking all the money would come from the ATA coffers. I do think there may be a couple who might be thinking the ATA could put in some if they can get a benefactor to put in the rest. It's just talk for now I think.

 

If the State of Illinois would of hit (won) the latest Power Ball for 1.5 billion it would of only made a dent in what they owe, selling the WSRC for 7 or 8 million dollars will not get the State out of trouble but it will give the State another place to tax the living hell out of like they are doing to people who own property (real estate) in the State ... I can't see a serious investor getting involved with any part of owning the WSRC , for a multitude of reasons ... The WSRC is not something you just up and put on the market one day and hope you get a buyer any time soon ... Its a loser, been a loser and will always be a loser ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The current "ATA" does not need to own anything. Look at "Trap and Field Magazine" for an example ... it was a loser going out of business, so the "ATA" buys it and takes the loss to keep it going. They spend money for vanity ... the magazine content of interest to most shooters is available for free online. There is not a current plan to turn the vanity publication around to at least break even.

The "ATA" says it pays "Lynn A Gipson" "40 hours per week" ... for 52 weeks, being 2080 hours, at the rate of 67 dollars per hour, based on their reporting. One would think in the 2080 hours he could do some "work" for the membership, and not just himself. Until the "ATA" starts paying people for performance, the ownership of anything can and will be a money pit, with no clear purpose other than providing a paycheck for under-producing people.

It may be common ... but ... can anyone list other jobs they know of that pay 67 bucks per hour, and does not require you to account for your time 'on-the-clock'. That is not a business owner paying themselves ... it is someone paying others "40 hours per week", and some of that time is for personal participation.

 

This is like dealing with the "flat earth society". Next we will have straightshooter representing grntitan and trapwife in another frivolous lawsuit claiming mental anguish or definition of character. What a courtroom that would be.

 

Think about it, who's the dummy Lynn ( the Talking Head ) Gipson is getting paid a professionals wages to do a simpletons job by being the whipping post and talking for the ATA ... No "Professional" would of ever said anything like what a "Fantastic Direction" they are moving in and not have something solid as concrete to back it up, then talk about how much money the facility generates when he has to know full well that the State of Illinois has auditors that can tell them all they need to know ... Lynn Gipson sold his "Integrity" for his $136,000 plus per year job, most people of honor wouldn't do it for twice that ... If you think the ATA is not in trouble, look around and think again ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

01-20-16 :

The State of Illinois is currently $7,761,210,818 and counting, in the rears ... This is per the States web site, confirmed on reboot Illinois .com ... Thats SEVEN BILLION +++++ WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The State of Illinois claims that over $900,000 is need for repairs and to correct safety issues on the State parks, over $200,000 for the facility in Sparta, alone ... This being the case the cost to maintain and operate the WSRC went from 3 million annually, to over $3,200,000 plus annually ... It appears the State of Illinois is going to make claims enough to justify an outrageous amount of money for any temporary rental or lease agreement once all of the dust has settled and any kind of contract can be finalized ... There are no updates on the Gov. Web site, or reboot.com but this news is on the State of Illinois web site if your interested to find it and verify it ... I sincerely hope the ATA is not sitting back and banking on the State to come up with a plan that is workable ($$$$$$) so all that are going to attend can make plans and secure places to stay although that does not appear to be a growing concern or problem ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Back to my first post. It definitely appears that if there is a Grand (doubtful) it will be whatever the ATA and Gipson want to do. Illinois will be stepping aside and strictly collecting a check. If they move forward my understanding is they will pay an exorbitant amount for a short time and have no possible way of recouping their expenses. There will be no way the limited income that MAY be available can cover the costs The ATA will be faced with. I'm sure the Kool Aid Brigade could care less as long as they get their Grand. If it happens it's a definite financial loser.

 

If the money /check is given someone will get a kickback/ only need the WRSC for 11 days period, so divide the lease that was broken by 365 days and multiply the answer by 11 days, and pay that amount.

GB.................DLS

 

Depending on over all condition of the machines, grounds, and on site accommodations (restaurants, rest rooms, sitting areas, roads, and camp grounds ) it will take longer than 11 days to whip the place into shape so as not to cause an embaressment (sp) to the State of Illinois as well as the City of Sparta and some of its residents ... Three to four months is probably closer to right being as it will be done by state and local Unionized employees who do not move very fast unless it when they are done for the day ... Kick back is a normal thing in the State of Corruption Illinois so it cannot be avoided and they cut no deals ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

IGNORE THE BLOWUP: BRUCE RAUNER, JOHN CULLERTON PENSION DEAL PUTS MIKE MADIGAN IN A CORNER

RICH MILLER

GUEST VIEW
JAN 24, 2016 2314 1

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badly bungled the rollout of a deal with Cullerton on pension reform. Instead of describing the agreement for what it really was, Rauner greatly exaggerated its scope and portrayed it as a big defeat for AFSCME and other unions.

In reality, the deal with Cullerton (and there is still a deal with Cullerton, despite what you may be reading elsewhere) is narrow in scope and elegantly designed to put Madigan in a truly tough position.

The plan, negotiated over months, is to use most of Cullerton’s bill to offer employees a choice. If they want to keep their compounded 3 percent annual cost of living increase, then their pay hikes going forward won’t be pensionable. If they want their raises to be pensionable going forward, then those raises would be subjected to the “Tier 2″ pension law – annual simple interest pension increases which are either half the Consumer Price Index or 3 percent, whichever is less.

Cullerton has long maintained that if employees are offered a legitimate choice then the state’s constitutional pension contract language would be satisfied. Others note that the constitution also declares that pension benefits cannot be diminished or impaired.

To maybe make this work, however, the law would have to be changed to forbid public employee unions from negotiating on this particular, narrow topic. Pension rights are individual legal rights, so only individuals can make the choice about whether to apply their pay raises to their pensions or not.

And in a brilliant move, the Cullerton and Rauner negotiators deliberately included some important language from Speaker Madigan’s own pension proposal on this very topic: “Employers shall not be required to bargain over matters affected by the changes, the impact of changes, and the implementation of changes” made to state pension law.

So, Rauner had Cullerton on board and Madigan in a tight box. Not a bad day’s work.

But when he explained it to reporters, Rauner went way over his skis. To be constitutional, he said, “salary increases have to be taken out of collective bargaining.”

“This is a key point,” Rauner wrongly continued. “Salary increases come out of collective bargaining. So the union has nothing to do with it in the future.”

That’s just not even close to being true. Under this proposal, the unions can still negotiate salary increases, they just can’t negotiate over what part of those salary increases are pensionable.

And Rauner just couldn’t resist taking another shot. “What we’d like to do in the future is to take other things out of collective bargaining at the state and at the city levels.”

As if things aren’t already on edge during this aggravating months-long impasse, Rauner let his longtime hatred of unions get in the way of what could’ve been a triumphant day. Everything quickly blew up, with Speaker Madigan shooting down the whole idea and a confused Cullerton (who had prepared a supportive, bipartisan press release in advance) claiming “It’s not my plan.”

The problem here is that trust is almost nonexistent. Nobody at the top trusts anybody else. So, Cullerton immediately assumed that Rauner had double-crossed him.

Later, staff members from the governor’s office explained what the governor actually meant, and Cullerton’s people said they were still backing the deal they had made with Rauner – but only that deal.

If the governor had quickly corrected his obvious error, this whole thing would’ve been easily cleared up. But no way would Rauner’s people even consider admitting a problem with what the boss said, instead blaming it all on Cullerton and claiming the press coverage was clearly going their way. And then late in the evening, with the media coverage going against them, Rauner’s office finally, grudgingly admitted that “Perhaps the governor was not as precise in his word selection as the Democrats would have liked.”

Even so, last week marked an important turning point.

Rauner finally got Cullerton to triangulate Madigan. Once the craziness dies down a bit, Madigan will be forced to take sides. Will he back language his own staff wrote for another bill, or will he just say “No” and begin fighting with Cullerton?

Forget the temporary blowup. That’s the real thing to watch here.

 

Talking about getting it all, should be Bend over ATA you are going to get it all before its all over ... The State of Illinois is going to try and pawn off anything and everything they can on the ATA to let them take control and hold the grand at the facility ... I am betting my money of the State of Illinois getting the better of the deal when it all comes down to finalization ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Do you think ATA will pay the electric bill?

GB....................DLS