Category shoot off rules are pure BS

Today I was @ an ATA shoot--two shooters with the same score shot for Sr. Vet trophy (buckle)

The loser could not fall back to yardage group. He got nothing , zero, nada !!

How do I know--I got the yardage group buckle, & I shot 1 target less than the gentleman who was screwed by these ATA absurd guidelines !!

Change this crap--In Fl where I shoot, Sr. Vet is a no, no when you declared @ a shoot.

 

Welcome to the ATA.

 

Since I was involved with the drafting of this rule, perhaps I can add some of the context to the reasons for it. When Yardage groups were added to the Grand Handicap events, it made a convoluted mess of things. This created unique circumstances where shooters could be Multiple Categories, Place and Yardage Group Trophy eligible. So on multiple events we'd have shooters waiting to check in so they could see what the easiest shoot-off would be. The other idea was that you're giving the Special Categories and extra opportunity to win a Trophy, so if a shooter "chooses" to declare for a Category, they should be locked into that choice, other than for Event Champion being allowed to fall back. I presented my ideas to then ATA VP John Hiter, ATA Delegate Dan Woods, Past President Lucky Nightingale and Bob Stuart. I originally thought it would be just for the Grand, but after some wording updates it was presented to the ATA BOD and voted unanimously for all ATA Trophy events. Considering it's been the least discussed ATA rule change for some 15 years now, perhaps more agree with it then not?

 

I am 84 years young and I do not declare senior vet at any ata shoot any more. The rule sucks that is in place for the trophy eligability list. Roger C.

 

Screw yardage groups, just have places and categories-- or, how about a new category--transtesticle/ for guys who want to compete for Lady 1 /Lady ll--OR-super senior vet 80 +

 

DEDPAIR this explains a lot to me. In the last 15 years since this brilliant idea was let loose on the membership your pa state association has went from being the crown jewel financially of state associations that owned their home grounds to one that is 400 grand in debt and in financial trouble. Could one reason be that with all the categories the costs of trophies has sky rocketed while the attendance has plunged?

The grand had yardage groups when I started shooting in 1974. The grand you describe has too many damn trophies.

I don't think I'll take anything you or ollie say as serious, not only are you happy to claim this dumb ass idea your state can't run an election and has f the rest of the country because of it. Time for you both to put your masks back on and figure out how you're going to save the Pa state association and leave the rest of us alone.

 

Brad, never confuse me with the idiocy the PSSA has thrived on for decades. I'm not nor ever will be a chosen one or prima donna the facility is well noted for. When asked for my opinion years ago on making the return to 3-hole targets I responded affirmatively to the then ATA President and secretary. When asked by a few PSSA officers my opinion on Skeet ranges, vendor buildings and a Sporting Clays course I told 'em to shove the first two proposals up where the sun doesn't shine but the third had merit. My family has cabinets filled with ATA trophies, many from that place, but we'll gladly accept low ball offers for most. We are not trinket collectors and agree more trophies are for kids. FYI, I would never have approved nor was I asked if spending $400,000 on PAT traps to replace Superstars was a great idea.

 

I say screw categories, just have places and yardage groups. It sure makes things a lot easier to figure out come shoot off time. There would also be less trophies to buy this way. In my opinion all these dumbass categories and all american points crap, along with the great move to Sparta is destroying or already has destroyed a game that I truly love. I try to shoot good enough to win and not worry about the rest. It wouldn't bother me if they just had a first place purse. Piss on a trophy !!!

 

Yes, dump the categories.

 

But without categories--the"soccer" moms & dads of trapshooting would have nothing to brag about @ their gatherings

Typical discussion--Oh I heard your daughter is into trap shooting --will u be getting her a Krieghoff or a Perazzi as a learner gun & remember in Florida the kids shoot @ discounted rates

 

635 G You nailed it. A real trap shooter would also be one that drove an extra 20 miles to save a quarter on a bag of shot and just buy one bag. A real trap shooter would have a $15,000 single and shoot re loads that I wouldn't use to shoot black birds. I guess you need to start em right.

I'm never shocked about what a real trap shooter does.

Classes put shooters against other shooters of their own ability (supposedly anyhow) Kids have SCTP to shoot against other kids, it's old men and women that want those categories. I do agree about the parents but most of those kids don't shoot enough to qualify for All American anyway so I don't think most of the SCTP knows or cares about ATA other than SCTP makes them register the singles.

At one time I had the figures but I remember that less than 3 % of Jr and 1% of sub Jr's shoot enough to be on the AA teams.. Since so many on here contend that shooters in the occupy the 27 group just want to shoot with their friends I guess it shouldn't matter to them either.

 

I think I might just resemble that statement about '' I'm never shocked...''.

 

I am for dropping all categories, when I started (1963) you had ABCD classes and earned your way up the ladder.
and held your head high in your class. How can we change it back? Lots of shooters say I only got a coffee cup for 1st place.
If the clubs didn't have categories to buy for, maybe, they could have some leather, or silver. For the true winner. Just my 2 cents.

 

Typical response and I should have known better than to offer the truth here. My idea was a fix to what I inherited trying to run the shootoffs at the Grand that year. Right or or wrong, it is now the ATA rule and to think it had anything to do with the PA financials is very obtuse on your part. Then to say anything Ollie and I say will no longer be believed? Really? I 100% agree with his response above and have had some very in depth conversations with him in regards to the issues in PA. Sad that every post on here derails to the same 4 talking points and your displeasure with Registered shooting and the ATA. .

 

The best is when AAA shooters come in on top and most won't stick around to shoot off because they're all going to get equal all American points and they just leave to go out to dinner not caring about trophies or anything, instead of being able to watch these great shooters shoot off against one another they bail.... unless its for the grand championship rings or something like a zone championship... theres no incentive really to shoot off.

 

I had a situation that I was involved in that falls in the same line as 635G. At the 2013 GRAND AMERICAN on one of the preliminary days I broke a 98 in a cap event. I had declared myself as a VET. Well that day there were two 99's and four 98's and of course dozens of 97's. Of the four 98's that day, three of them were VET's. So we had to shoot off. I was lucky to win the shootoff. Of course there were trophies for the top 12 or 15 places. Well the two 99's got first and second. The ONE NON VET 98 got third place and the 97's shot off for the remaining high gun/score trophies. The three other VET's who lost the category shootoff got nothing but their empty hulls. WOW, that is sure some great rules. The categories are BS. One fix that would make this circus better would be if your score put's u into a shootoff for the top places (I.E. first through 15), that is the first shootoff you should be in, then you could fall back ONE time either to yardage group OR category. Like in my example, all four of the 98's should have gotten a chance to win a place trophy. I really felt sick for the three other VET's that day. Broke a 98 and got NOTHING but the 97's got place trophies. That just is not right!!!!! Now DEDPAIR tell me how that makes folks want to come back and keep shooting ATA targets. There are a couple of fixes in my opinion. One simple one is eliminate the category trophies. You shoot for a top place trophy or fall back (or win) your yardage group. Change is good. But, continuous improvement needs to be used with change. When you try something new and you determine you are not getting the expected results (and your customers are not happy), you IMPROVE it until you get the expected results. That's my opinion!!!!!!!!

 

Big Papa, just do not declare for any catagory position. I do not any more' even at my state shoot. Or any ATA event.
I'm 84 and there is no way I can compete with the younger sen. vets. so no more declaring for that catagory.
Roger C.

 

What's the difference in a A class shooter getting beat in shoot-off with a 200, no runner up trophy. Then at same shoot Vet gets trophy for a 198. There is no fix for this mess, there is going to always be somebody bitching about something. I think we should shoot, focus on breaking targets and let the chips falls where they may. Piss on trophies, I want that first place payout.

 

I am 81 and never declare Sr. vet. either. Part of the reason being there are numerous very good sr. vet shooters including some all americans i think in this area. Have a much better chance in open class than sr. vet. One eyed shooter with 20/40 corrected in best eye. at one time was 98.83 16's, 27 yd for about 25 yrs.,94.7 dbls. Age and bad eye site have taken a toll on me but i am still in the game. Going for my 50th consequtive state shoot in 2022. Will shoot off a gurney if have to. Gud luk and good shooting to everyone.

 

Dump the categories. Shoot on your average. Tall, short, gender, etc does not matter with a shotgun. I can see being over 35% body fat being an advantage as the wind doesnt move you, and your girth can soak up the recoil. Present your average card, and prepared to get calipered.

 

Be careful mentioning fat shooters it may be a catagory soon. Many of the EC and BOD fitr that description. Roger C.

 

I agree whole hardheartedly I had the same situation as you and it doesn't make one feel very good when you break a score higher then someone who won a place trophy only because ( in my case ) there were more higher scores in the category then were available, so you get nothing. I guess doing away with category's could be eliminated and maybe would free up money for better place trophy's.

 

Could this be one reason I let my ATA membership lapse?