How Much $$$$ to Add the 30?

Assuming we were going to add the 30 yard line to a club like the Cardinal Center.

How much concrete would it take? Listening to oleolliedawg I was a bit overwhelmed at the expense. They have 52 traps. I was thinking that is some big bucks. So I was doing the math but doing it wrong.

There will never be many 30 yard shooters. At most you would only have to add 1 bank for those shooters. 1 bank of the 12. The expense would be minimal.

One club I shoot at just recently added the 27. Those without room will stay at the 27. How often does McCarthy and Campbell get to my clubs? Not often.

You would not have to add the 30 unless your club was part of the point system. So no expense there.

 

I will agree that there would not be a need for several banks that can service the 30 yard shooter, but if you don't extend all the banks, how do you choose the banks that will be extended to the 30 yard line?

If you choose the banks with the best background, someone will say that you are pandering to the "elite." If you choose one of the least desirable banks, it could be argued that an additional handicap is being imposed on the best shooters in an effort to limit their ability to excel.

There are fewer than 10 competitive shooters at my club. One of them has maintained a 95 average for the last 4 years and would certainly be one of the shooters who would earn yardage past the 27. The local clubs are small, for the most part, so if they are to accommodate him, they would have to add the 30 yard line to a couple of their traps.

As far as shooting on the 27 yard line, at the clubs that have not extended their walks, that is not fair to the shooter. Who would want to shoot at competitions 2 or 3 yards closer than their actual handicap, and be expected to be competitive at the big shoots where there is a 30 yard line.

The 30 yard line is an idea that is not without merit, but it has to be tested, in conditions where the variables can be controlled, like the Grand, over a couple of years. If it is proven to be fair (shooters are able to achieve competitive scores), then it can be implemented by the organization.

 

At the Cardinal Center you already have banks that are established for the 27. You could have one east and one west. Most big shoots already have banks reserved for the elite.

 

Earned yardage beyond the 27 would only be given at a shoot with the ATA point system.

 

The 27 yard line has been tested for for the last 40 years. We did not need this the last time we made a correction.

 

You really think the great ones will be over handicapped by going to the 27 for a day instead of their usual 30? I have news.... those most serious about chasing points are not hanging out at the small shoots.

 

Joe blow has to take what banks the elitists left for him. You did not care about Joe before but you took issue with the elitist having to shoot where Joe usually shot.

 

FG, the shoots that I attend do not reserve banks for the elite shooter, none of them.

A shooter at 27 yards shoots a 99 at a local shoot and he receives no yardage, really?

I have news as well, the shooter who I am referring to, has a job that does not allow him to chase points. He attends shoots that are within driving distance (up to 9 hours-none closer than 4 hours with the exclusion of our Provincial shoot). He has enough points to make the All American teams most years, but not the targets. I would suggest to you that he is not the only one that is in this situation.

Unfortunately for Joe, that is the risk that he takes when he arrives at the shoot late. The shoots that I attend typically draw a number prior to the event, and that number determines the banks that are shot for that event. But to either intentionally give some shooters an advantage as far as bank selection is concerned or to blackball others is not really on in my book.

 

Jo
Get around more. The bank selection process is easy to overcome.

No one has posted anything about blackballing anyone. Call Neil and get another argument.

Unfortunately with online registration the shooters arriving early are actually asking for banks too late.

As far as concrete pads. They can be done cheap enough. This is not about expense with you. It is about protecting an ex president's lifetime achievement. The shoots that hold the point shoots can handle this.

For the cost of the free gun given out every year all the necessary traps in Ohio, PA and NY can be done.

 

Interesting.....before this discussion you were against him getting yardage. I would let you give him yardage. That solves the argument right?

 

This would not affect my club. The big guys only go there if we pay them.

 

I just spent 6.5 times. what I won. That is the problem. A local walleye tournament had 2000 fishermen, to win $30000, yet the winner only got $1000, on a $10 ticket.

 

The point that I am trying to make is-if one 27 yard shooter scores 99 at a "Point shoot,"he gets at least a yard added to his current 27 yard handicap. His friend attends a smaller shoot on the same weekend, shoots 99 from 27 yards and gets the honorary punch. Both attend their state shoot a couple of weeks later, one stands on the 28 yard line, while the other remains on the 27 yard line. Hardly seems fair, does it?

 

OK Jo2....as you say we will give both the yard. All is fair right?

 

The 30 already exists at the big shoots. No big deal.

 

Please tell me where they shoot (at the big shoots) from the 30yd line.

Thank you,,,,,,,Tom

 

Tom
The thread is about cost $$$$ to pour concrete for the 30 yardline. The Cardinal which holds 3 of the largest 5 shoots, and Sparta have the 30 yard line pads. PA has stated they will pour without problems. I believe those are the largest 5 shoots that award ATA points.

Again I was not implying shooters are already at the 30 just following the original topic.

Sorry

 

Can you show me where the Cardinal has 30yd fields. (I work there at the State shoot).

Thank you,,,,,Tom

 

Mr. Fishburn would be happy to pour 1o more pads. 10 east and 10 west if needed. He just put in a rifle and pistol range. Offered a building for the HOF. When HOF said they wanted the ground he offered deed. When it was mentioned they still would not have right of way he offered that and then said he would build a road.

They are breaking ground on a new vendor building.

I think he would pour to the 35 if needed.

As the CC grows you will be sure all the new pads are at least to the 30.

 

In 1955, that 2 yard increase was to further handicap one single shooter, Arnold Reigger for his dominance in our game of handicap. Considering the quality of ammo and guns available in 1955, two yards certainly wasn't warranted if we use todays mentality of making it more difficult for those we perceive mastering the handicap game? Look at the gun and ammo improvements since that change? One piece all plastic wads and higher antimony shot with radically improved guns?

The 27 max has been tested for 60 years now, not 40. Should we have another yardage increase again? Of course, but it should come with a vastly different set of parameters than did that last increase from 25 to 27. We should be looking at those perceived as mastering the game of handicap instead of creating just another place to stand as the 27 has become. There's nothing wrong at all with creating or further handicapping the best of the best in setting new goals they could shoot for!

Another thing we shouldn't do is add further expenses to the remaining gun clubs we have left!! We're losing clubs left and right as it is now for goodness sakes! It seems Trap & Field has become a Grand publication of one sort or another for trap shooting news already? Have we waited too long already?

HAP

 

Hap,

This proposal does not hurt the local clubs.

It only requires a few new pads for major events holding shoots where ATA points are given.

 

Rob alluded to the fairness of one shooter earning points for a 99 and his buddy shooting a small shoot breaking the same score was granted honorary yardage only. That certainly is possible but highly unlikely in addition. Why, most max yardage shooters capable of breaking such scores will be following the "point" shoots anyway. Too bad for the honorary yardage guy.

Should we ever have another yardage increase again, it should be done under a totally different set of circumstances than the last one. Create a max yardage with teeth for those attaining it with a mandatory average and mandatory reduction if not maintained! Give such yardage to only those that win or tie at major point shoots with a minimum number of required shooters. Now, under that scenario, how many fields would need to be retrofitted with pads to shoot from? Not very many is my guess.

HAP

 

30 with the following:

 

30 yard line or hit the 1994 reset button.

 

BINGO!!!!

Flyersarebest

 

$5 - $5.50 / sq ft. 700 sf/field +/- . $3,500 - $4000 per field if done by a contractor.

Scalp topsoil, grade with compacted gravel, form, pour, seal, saw cut, and paint markers, then back grade.

 

I could only imagine how many more of the smaller clubs would close down if mandated to add that much money to their fields!

Should we ever have another yardage increase as we did in 1955, it should done with a vastly different set of parameters than the last time. Not just a place to attain and stand there banging our 60s/70s because they earned the "right"? WE do need a new max goal for those deemed to have mastered our handicap game. One where a shooter must earn the right continually to remain with a specified average or be mandated to take their reductions at the going rate. After all, we've had the 27 as a max for 60 years?

HAP

 

OP says this proposal does not mandate that for small clubs. Both the clubs we attend could do it for a fraction of that cost. We haven't had the 27 that long. From Podunk

You are not making a highway. Just a place to stand.

 

I don't understand why you'd say that unless you mean your club or mentioning the one the OP spoke of?

In 1955, clubs were granted so many years to update their yardage from 25 to 27. During that time, shooters at the new 27 were allowed to shoot from the 25 at clubs not yet up to date. The club mentioned by the OP recently adding a 27 yard line certainly didn't hold registered shoots after the mandated extension expired, at least handicaps.

I agree, I'd rather have a nice rubber mat to stand on or grass instead of concrete pads.

That's why I've always said, if we ever have another yardage increase, it should be under far different circumstances than the last increase.

HAP

 

Smoking, I agree. I do not know if we can get that passed. I have been in contact with my delegate. How about telling us about your delegate.

Also you must remember. The state with 60 shooters has the same number votes as the state with 6,000.

Example---Rhode Island has the same votes as PA.

Add the EC and the state members they represented and you couldn't get a big shoot.

 

I think asking for anything that will hurt the average shooters is a wasted effort.

Be careful who you vote for at your state delegate elections. BTW, that's how we got here in the first place, electing delegates that thought easier was better?

HAP

 

Guys, if you want a faster target, how fast do you want them to go, or how far do you want them to go? Please put a number on the speed or the distance.

 

Jo2

The thread isn't about the target speed.

 

smoking357 has never fired at a single registered ATA target. His opinion is valueless!

 

Rob, how about giving shooters/clubs the ability to add just enough speed to the targets to stabilize them when it's windy? Especially during head and tail winds and would help stabilize singles, caps and doubles too! Savy club managers wanting better scores shot at their club already do this, some, will not change the speed at all! They will throw targets higher than the rule allows on a whim during windy conditions. The 39 mph rule is a bluebird day setting for doubles and we all know it.

How far? Just far enough to allow an average ATA shooter to shoot at a stabilized target before wind interferes with the target? Top shots, as you know, can break great scores under almost any settings and conditions. I feel we should give the average shooter a break here and there also?

HAP

 

$210 will do an entire trap field on the cheap. $3.50 each x 4/station x 3 yardages x 5 stations. Won't last forever, especially in the northern tundra but....

 

357

You talk like you shoot ATA which you do not. It is an open forum. A forum for all views on all shotgun sports.

The subject is about increasing the chance of missing for a select few of those that are nearly unhandicapped. It is also about doing so as inexpensively as possible while affecting as few as possible.

It is not a discussion about the 16.

 

2 3/4 dram shells would have the same effect but it would probably affect some other than the 27+

 

"targets of unknown height". Now he wants the ATA to scrap all those standard trap machines and install wobble machines. That oughta really pull 'em in. All existing trap clubs scrapping those old PAT traps to comply with the wishes of a wannabe who never shot an ATA event. Let's stick with a few rubber mats for adding yardage and ignore those with only a vivid imagination!

 

Rosey,
Please explain how you came up with 700 sq. feet of concrete to add 3 yds. of length to 5 stations? I'm not a mathamatical wizzard, but I would love to sell you concrete. Roger C.

 

If you put a 4x8 sheet of 1 inch plywood on the ground for the 30 yarders they could stand better than those at the 25 at my club.

 

Roger, I have a trap field layout on ACAD. A "field" is close to 60' wide at the out side of concrete from post 1 to post 5 @28 yards. With the Arc, it is closer to 70'.
3 yards is 9' (28, 29, 30 yards). I added an extra foot as is often done for more room to walk around the 27 yard shooters just for a quick estimate.

10' x 70' =700sf x.33 (4" concrete) = 8.55 cy of mix @ $100/cy = $855 plus tax for mud, plus 17-20 tons of stone, plus rebar/mesh, sealer. etc..= $1,300 for material.

Labor can be performed by club members, but around here everything included is close $5/sf. 1/2 day for a uniloader and operator is $600, but that includes mobilization of 45 min. each way. Nothing's cheap.

 

Perfect! Better than what we stand on at the 16 at a few of my clubs.

 

Rosey,
It is hard to justify a outlandish statement is it not. Having a trap field on cad does not make you an expert on construction. Do it without union labor hourly rates and the cost will be held to a very low expenditure. Read the post above this one and compare the cost to yours.

 

Roger, I figured the quantity as a continuous pad in lieu of 5 separate pads 10' x 3'.
You need to get out of the 70's.
Those aren't union numbers. That's what small concrete jobs run around here if you hire it out.

BTW, with ACAD, I can give the concrete crew any straight line or curve dimension on the trap field they want. Saves a ton of time on layout. I wouldn't call myself an expert, but yes I have a little construction experience.

 

"You need to get out of the 70's."

The golden years of Trapshooting

I would say we are definitely out of those years.

Flyersarebest

 

Rosey,
We are not talking about a beautiful landscaped 30 yd. line. Most clubs will never see a 30 yd. shooter. A couple of flat pads will suffice. Where is the club in the picture? Do not post it in to many places. drop area is not ideal. Roger

 

Even far less than that.

The only clubs that would need a 30 yard bank would be clubs that are in the point system.

 

I have used 3' square rubber mats as pads in the past for fun shoots and love them.
there cheap to make, easy to lay out and can be stacked in shed when not in use.

 

Added plus of rubber stall pads.... built in barrel rest ;-)

 

If you want concrete you could use patio stones 24"x18" 6 stones per station x 5 stations which would require 30 patio stones, level the ground lay the stones all for under $ 100. 00 per field. A club could get by by doing 2 fields as there will not be that many shooters beyond the 27 yd line.

 

I doubt either of the clubs I frequent would allow pavers or rubber mats to be used. I wouldn't meet their standards.
Light poles, benches, and other obstructions are in the way anyway.

30 yard is not needed at smaller clubs. At the Great Lakes Grand Handicap Championship there were (3) 98s. High scores were shot at the 19, 23.5, and 27. There were (8) 97s...no 27 yarders. There were (14) 96s.....(5) from the 27 (Hawley, Kemper, Neff, Ohye, and Wengerd......we've heard these names before)

 

Rosey'
If their standards are that high they should not mind the added expense of adding yardage. The club in the picture is first class. I'm sure they would do what it takes to adhere to the new rules. With voice calls only one field would need to be long, and only the shooting lanes not the whole area. It is the only way to equalize the handicap system. If they never throw events that carry AA points then they will not need the added yardage. Roger

 

Roger, True. Since the ATA yardage gifts, we usually have 2 squads of 25 - 27 yarders at most shoots. The Zone shoot is the exception.
The problem is those 27 yarders that have multiple "honorary" punches. Wonder how many punches those 5 shooters have gotten in the last year?
I did watch Hawley shoot caps for a while. 30 yard line won't affect his abilities, but it might affect his pattern efficiency.

 

Rosey,
Believe me 9 ft. is not going to affect the patterns. I have stated before and I will say it again thatr is more of N.W. bull s&&t.
He expounds on his theories AS IF THEY WERE FACT. The sad part is many shooters fall for his brand of KOOL-ADE.
Mr. Hawley and Jerry Parr shot 100 targets from the 30 yd. line at Vernal a couple of years ago. They broke 97 98 in the test. I have never heard them say their guns were maxed out at 27 yds. Roger

 

I would have to say with today's guns and ammunition the well known shooters presently on the 27yd line would not have a problem from the 30yd line. This is evident by the shooting games many shoot from 35 yds and still break almost all of the targets.