One Thing that Really Sticks in My Craw - "Best Shooters"

They like to knock down all suggested changes to make the sport more difficult by saying changes are unneeded because "the best will always win."

Well, yeah, but not in the way they mean it. If Trap becomes a tougher sport, with wider angles, faster targets and maybe even elevation changes, not all of the 100 best ATA shooters will be the 100 best Improved Trap shooters. Some will, as some of the best in ATA are just really good, but not all, maybe not even half.

There's a lot of presentation memorization going on in ATA. If you take away the shooter's ability to have seen every target 1,000 times previously, many of today's "big dogs" won't be at the top of a tougher game.

The best will always win, but a tougher game will have a new list of best shooters -- and that's what they're afraid of.

 

Don't have a dog in this fight, but I imagine they'd also be irked by some new guys trying to erase the experience (which you've called memorization) they've gained through years of practice and repetition.

 

Sorry to disagree. Many of your top shooters have already shot the tougher targets in the past. Why wouldn't the supposed lower half adjust to the new targets as fast or faster than those new shooters you proclaim would jump up. You don't think experience would help them adjust to your new targets. I don't think top shooters fear anyone. I don't think good shooters fear anyone.

Go to a large shoot where conditions are highly variable ( high variable winds with gusts) and see how the top/good shooters handle those target. Memory has nothing to do with it. My example happens every year at the shoots in Florida and other areas.

Change whatever you want but the cream will still be on the top. The change would occur at the same time for everyone, so who do you think would adjust the quickest. Your theory doesn't hold water.

Lefty

 

True, but the cream will be different people.

Put your local ATA champs on a Bunker field.

 

Not sure I care about tender hurt feelings in grownups. They should have been practicing something more challenging. Lots of things look difficult until you figure them out.



No amount of practice and repetition allows you to have a perfect average in something that's truly difficult.

Like this.

 

Making the targets harder is not to change winners into losers ... it is to stop people from giving-up after the first lost target.

If 'harder targets' can bring down scores enough to keep everyone trying down to the last target .... it is well worth the change.

Drive to a shoot .... put down your money .... look at the leader-board before you shoot .... see 5-100's in a 'high-gun' shoot .... miss one on the first post .... you now know you can go home with a 99 that is good for nothing. A few days like that and you will join those who have given-up on the current system.

 

Most shooters have no idea why we need a tad more difficult game! It's certainly not to make winners out of losers or handicap one out of contention either!

Research the game of skeet? They kept making it easier to "break-them-all" to the point where the game today! It has a shoot-off format that doesn't even resemble the game getting you there!!

User 1 touched on an important aspect, shooters missing and thinking they may still stand a chance! But there's even more, how other people perceive our games scores. We don't have a problem attracting people to the game of trap, we do lose them at an alarming rate though! Why is that? Once the realization sets in on how long it takes to be (almost) perfect to win, place or show mixed with how much it will cost them, they leave in droves!

It's so important in how others perceive our game of trap! We're following the skeet org. lead in making our game easier and that's just wrong! Wrong for growing our sport! You can't make winners out of losers no matter how easy you make the game!!

HAP

 

No, but I have had entirely enough of the former site dismissing all changes with the sophomoric platitude that "the best will still win." The primary objective isn't to jumble today's leaderboard, but we all know that will happen in a tougher game.

What they're really saying is that they win, just as things are, and they don't want to risk not winning. I suspect most seasoned Trapshooters have tried Bunker or Wobble, didn't break them all, and came away humbled and resolved never to risk having to shooting those games with their corresponding lower averages. Shooting .990 in an easier game makes them feel better than shooting .700 in a tougher game.

 

357 I have not heard such drivel in a long time. You must be a bunker boy. Where are all these shooter supposed to go to shoot bunker, it's not like there is 10 per state or any numbers similar. How can they be humbled is they can't shoot them. Give a good shooter time and he should be able to master or get damn good at any shotgun sport. [QUOTE="What they're really saying is that they win, just as things are, and they don't want to risk not winning[/QUOTE]. Been shooting shotgun sports for over 30+ years and never heard a shooter say or imply what you said. Most seek out tougher venues to test themselves. I have seen shooters make up games just to make it difficult and don't lack contestants. Maybe you ought to get out more and get off the web sites because you don't know trapshooters.

Lefty

 

. Been shooting shotgun sports for over 30+ years and never heard a shooter say or imply what you said. Most seek out tougher venues to test themselves. I have seen shooters make up games just to make it difficult and don't lack contestants. Maybe you ought to get out more and get off the web sites because you don't know trapshooters.

Lefty[/QUOTE]

"Other games" ain't Trap, son. "Other games" are called "Shotgun Sports." Good for shooters who try new games. Lots of shooters out there who enjoy games and never shoot a round of Trap.

Bunker is the top of the Trap world. There's no doubt about that. If you read my posts, you'd see that I'm a ready advocate of Wobble and Five Stand. Continental is great, but I don't like the two-shot aspect. One-shot Continental would be just fine.

Lastly, You need to get a lot smarter before you call thoughts you can't understand "drivel."

 

So I beat Olympic Trap gold medal winner Don Haldeman in a trap league shootoff in 1969. Even more meaningless drivel!

 

What user-1 said or implied:

Blue collar guy from OH or PA drives a whole day to get to Sparta. He drops a target early on the first trap. So how many times does he make that trip? We know the answer.

 

smoking357, another wannabe "bunker boy" who never shot an ATA target in his illustrious career informs us we must speed up our targets to somehow comply with his desires. Where's BIGDON when you need him?

 

Nobody has ever needed bigdon.

By the way, Bigddon is up in Michigan, trying to stay out of Ohio where the real Trap is and where Bryant beats his butt.

Ain't afraid of a faster or wider target, are you?

 

Listen son, I started this game in 1963. Please don't tell me anything about wider, faster targets and Trapshooting!

 

Just sound to me like you should be getting involved with other shooting sports like Sporting Clays. You could also choose to invent your own new game and see if it catches on. That's how Skeet came about.

 

Smoke you just proved you don't what you are talking about. It took just a few minutes checking with friends to find out that this Big Don, you love to rip, shot 3500+ targets in Ohio last year, won the faster wider event in this shoot off you keep referring to.

I don't think many are afraid of the so called faster wider targets. Do you shoot them, have you shot them, do you even shoot any trap targets or are you just a self proclaimed expert.

Lefty

 

"Other games" ain't Trap, son. "Other games" are called "Shotgun Sports." Good for shooters who try new games. Lots of shooters out there who enjoy games and never shoot a round of Trap.

Bunker is the top of the Trap world. There's no doubt about that. If you read my posts, you'd see that I'm a ready advocate of Wobble and Five Stand. Continental is great, but I don't like the two-shot aspect. One-shot Continental would be just fine.

Lastly, You need to get a lot smarter before you call thoughts you can't understand "drivel."[/QUOTE]

" DRIVEL"!

 

LOL,

I had to check which site I was on. For a minute I thought I accidentally clicked onto that old one.

Flyersarebest

 

Leftout...
What friend was that....I was there? Longshot kicked Big Don's butt. You do Don a disservice by bringing the issue up. You should have seen the first target that came out of the box for BD. Whiff. The first target for LS was a real hard left. Smoke. LS dropped a few later to keep the audience interested. 800 people watching.

Big Don has stated many times he is against making the targets harder in any way. You especially fear it as well.

And I shoot them Lefty. You asked. I was at Vienna, OH this week. Fast targets.

Also, Big Don is one of the good guys at least in person. That being said, do not misquote him.

 

Who's name is on the brick?

Flyersarebest

 

His name isn't even on the brick. But, it doesn't say "Big Don" either.

 

I started shooting registered targets in 1975, there never seemed to be the amount of people who were so interested in how fast, how long, how wide or how high (or low) the targets were ... I seem to remember people just showed up and shot the targets as presented and let the cards fall where they may ... I kind of liked it better when I didn't know a legal from illegal target and just had a good time shooting ... It was probably just luck but I did pretty good, got in a shoot off my second registered shoot and won, beside many other and a club shoot where I got a 3 ft tall trophy for winning ... The first time I went to the Grand I actually made money and had no idea what I was doing other than breaking targets and having fun ... I didn't qualify to be one of the Big Guns but got my name on the over head score board for a few seconds (early squad) and I had a ball ... The minimum yardage for men starting out was 22 yds and I was told many times how hard the targets were (didn't know what they were ) and was eventually told about 3 hole, 2 hole, etc targets and about the stake (yep, that stake) and that targets should go that far or close to it to be deemed legal ... I got to set some targets being on the Trap Committee and never heard anyone complain (maybe being nice) about any of them that I set ... I could go on and on because after learning about targets, I got a lesson in shotgun shells and all of the techy stuff (speed, hardness of shot, drams, ) and then it was patterning ... It seemed to me that all of the techy stuff cluttered my mind and it took the fun out if shooting ... I never felt like a contender at any of the bigger shoots that I went to but I was there to have fun and let the others battle it out, did get called for a few shoot offs though ... Damn, I miss them old days when I didn't know enough where I could still have fun and not know why ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Then,
Man, if I can break a 97 or 98 in caps today I should have a pretty good payday. Get my name up on that old chalk board and out front of the Fed building. Gotta love those Fed papers.

Now
If I miss one I might as well go sit in the car and save the shells.

Flyersarebest

 

That is the difference between winners and losers I guess. I shot with a person in the Grand American Handicap, the last year that the Martins donated to the Grand, and he missed 4 targets on his first post. He looked at me and shrugged his shoulders as he walked to his second post. He missed one more target on that trap and another on the last trap, for a 94.

That shooter was second to Leo Harrison in the HOA and won just under $15,000 in the Martin Lewis that year. That is the difference between a winner and loser!

 

That was a great LUCKY LEWIS pay out.

All you need is the Martins to donate the money.

Flyersarebest

 

No added money there this year. Big money and prizes are at the CC.

 

Well Jo2 .... maybe the 'ATA' needs more 'categories' to make everyone a "winner".

Because .... I think the "losers" have had a belly-full of being told it's 'their fault' they no longer enjoy the sport of ATA Trap.

The world may become clear for some, if they would remove their nose from the Trap-God's butts .....

 

User 1, how many categories would the ATA have to add to make a winner out of someone who quits after their first miss?

 

I don't know Jo2 .... you tell me ....

If a person shoots before any scores have been posted they may not give up .... but others who may see a 100 posted in their class or yardage group may feel like giving up after the first miss. The point of entering a competition is to win .... a "loser" breaks a 'you suck' score and hopes for some type of 'Lewis-Class' win.

People can play stupid like everything is fine, and that is OK with me .... because I can live with or without the ATA .... the shame is the ATA feels they can live without me and many others who may feel the same way.

 

One doesn't have to attend many bluebird shoots to realize our game is practically a miss and out thing these days, especially in our singles game. Whether or not you're aware of scores already shot prior to your squad shooting is immaterial on the best shooting days, it's practically factual.

HAP

 

Why have a 100 shot event, when you could establish a good curve and score distribution with a more challenging 50 shot event?

 

At one time I would have called you loony. I would have said we shoot 100 targets that way there is no way there is a tie at 100. And here we are.

 

Do you honestly think members of ATA would travel across the country to shoot fifty bird events, even if they were tougher angles and thrown harder? Wouldn't that be a total ATA game changer? What about our historical records based on 100 target events? That mule won't plow either I'm afraid.

HAP

 

I would be more in favor of shooting 200 target handicap events, rather than singles ( which I do not shoot) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

smoking 357 has never shot a single ATA registered event but thinks it needs some sort of change. His opinion is valueless!

 

I just got into the sport and I love it, whats wrong with it just the way it is? Seems like everytime I talk to guys at shoots at least one of them will seem so unhappy and very disgruntaled......what is everyone so unhappy about? Seriously , I'm not being a smart ass I really dont get it. Seems like a great sport, tons of fun and most of the guys I meet are very nice, If guys are so unhappy why do they keep playing this game, there are others.

 

614 shooter,
The problem is they doin't keep playing the game after a short period of grumbling and the memberships fall off ... Being a newby you will find all that out at a later date ... Make up your own mind and follow your own heart, use your own judgement ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Break it, Kill it, and Bury it. Change course, and be better for it.

American Trap earns no respect among international shotgunners, as it is simply not enough of a challenge. Consequently, American trapshooters are falling behind international trapshooters.

Times change.

 

So you're telling me someone who can't break a 100 with the way it is now is going to be able to adapt quicker to a harder target and out shoot the people who break a 100 almost every time? there is no way. Plus I would rather break 99 and lose to a 100 than shoot 79 and lose to an 80. Trap is suppose to be fun.. to me breaking targets is fun.

 

What I said is that yesterday's leaderboard will not be the leaderboard in a tougher game.

Have a look at this site:

http://www.continentalshooting.com/allscores.html

Look how few perfect 25's there are. There are a few Master class shooters who nail them fairly regularly, but there's a great spread of scores within which shooters can be mobile and achieve new ranks.

By that logic, Baseball should go to Tee-ball because hitting baseballs is fun, and a tee makes it easier to hit a baseball.

What continues to irk me is how easy some Americans have come to prefer things. If we were the Americans this country used to be, we'd be seeking and demanding ever tougher challenges.

 

All those words of wisdom came from the mouth of someone who never participated in any ATA event. With absolutely no track record of any sort his statement has just as much credibility-0!

 

You know, you say this absolute malarkey over on the other site all the time, and I've been itching to tell you that your words are some of the most ridiculous and illogical ramblings you'll find anywhere. If you were in the professional world, and you tried something that nonsensical, you'd be quietly dropped from any project of any significance.

I really can't believe that an adult would utter your comments and think to himself that those words made sense.

I'm being polite, here. In the real world, with subways, traffic, skyscrapers and people with advanced degrees, your comments would earn you some rather profane monikers behind closed doors.

Your ridiculous and childish comment takes this form:

Me: "Tiger Woods should really back up to the black tees and quit burning up those Par-3 courses. Doesn't he ever get tired of shooting in the 40's?"

You: "Your comments come from someone who has never played on the PGA Tour and should be given no credibility."

Like I said, I'm being polite, because we're in public. Your ridiculous comments would truly earn you some nasty insults in the Real World.

All this because you're unwilling to shoot a more challenging target.

 

Well, I did defeat the late gold medal bunker shooter winner Don Haldeman in an inferior 16 yd. trap shootoff in 1969. Since you've never participated in even one ATA event you can't even claim Elmer Fudd as a personal victory.

I did play 9 holes on a Silver Dollar course many years ago. I'm not qualified to comment on anything related to Golf. Wrong site anyway.

I'm sure the ATA will welcome your personal monetary contribution to replace all the existing trap machines with something more suitable for your tremendous talent. Now run along Mr. Nobody and shoot a few thousand registered ATA 27 yd. targets, report back how easy this game is and how you believe we need to make it tougher.

Of course, you have to get there first!

 

One of the dumbest things ever said is that only people who participate in a sport can comment on it.

By that attack on logic, ESPN and every nightly news broadcast would be out of business.

Unlike most of us, you are fortunate to have a bunker trap right in your hometown. http://ontelaunee.org/international-trap/

I wish I had a Bunker facility in town.

If Bunker is so easy, what are your International scores at Ontelaunee? Do you have the same average at Bunker as you do at ATA 27?

 

Ollie you and I have shot registered targets for years and we have seen how the ATA has made it easier to break targets that are narrower angles, shorter distances, we teethed on them and became good on them harder angle targets, these newbies have never shot those style of targets and have no idea of how competitive they were, we did not have very many ties or splits in our handicap payouts. We know we expierenced it, and I am glad I had a part of it.
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Look smoking357,

when I go to a shoot I prefer to compete against hundreds of shooters-not the 5 or 10 at a typical bunker shoot-most of whom still speak in their native tongue and can't find the deodorant aisle in the supermarket either.

That said, ATA traphouse configuration does not lend itself well to wobble trap presentations. Of course, I'm sure you're not aware the ATA had a wobble event at the Grand years ago that was dropped for lack of participation. Just stop and think of the absurdity in your proposal.

Yes, good Dr. Gary, I remember those days quite well. I also remember 2.5 hole targets and reading traps so well I knew what to expect for each target. It really doesn't matter as much as we'll never get as many wider targets off a PAT trap as those old Western handsets!

 

smoking357,

Whether I happen to agree with your opinions or not you have every right to post them.

It would do us all much good to submit our reply in a respectful manner. After all, we're all scattergunners, NRA members, sportsmen, etc.

In my opinion disagreements are won by offering up facts not criticisms.

I'm grateful for opposing views. Sometimes I find out that I was the one full of . . . . . . mom's chicken potpie!

Kenny Ray Estes
Pittsgrove, NJ

 

Hunter

Your singles game shows you could almost lose to 80 with a 79. When was your last 99 from the caps let alone the 16?

On one of the polls for singles you could chose pour more concrete for the 15. lol

I can see why you would want the targets easier. Way easier.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You can keep that racist crap to yourself. There's nothing wrong with other languages, and multiculturalism is certainly not an acceptable reason not to shoot with a new group of folks, nor does hurling ethnic slurs provide a valid excuse for ducking tougher targets. We'd all be better if we knew at least one additional language.

You tried to brag just the other day that you started shooting in the 60's. HistoryBuff just posted an excellent piece on how Trap was radically dumbed down in 1954, going from 45 degrees and 150 feet to 22 degrees.

Bring back REAL ATA Trap, and we can then see how the so-called "big guns" of today compare to folks who made this sport and shot hard targets with inconsistent shells and factory guns with field stocks and no ribs.

Bring back REAL ATA Trap, which can be shot on today's fields, and there might not be a need for Wobble.

 

Hunter...how is Edward44 doing these days? Nice to see you here. Again we have you talking so much about a sport you know so little. You did talk about shooting a 99. When was the last time that happened?

 

With averages like hunter44's he might be competitive if standing on top of a traphouse. Then again, maybe not!

smoking357, just so happens I speak two languages quite well and tell us what YOU know about so called real ATA trap! Oh, that's right, you have a 0 record of ever participating. No record-know nothing!

 

Lighten up on Hunter a bit. I am surprise he ran tail so quick.

Neil can back up some arguments.
...................................................................

I disagree with Lefty's statement.

Many will be in the clubhouse protecting their average. Gotta stay on the program.!

Eliminate the point system and we will have trapshooters again.

 

I know you never shot Real ATA Trap, and that you spent your entire career shooting dumbed-down Trap and avoiding shooting harder disciplines.

One more thing: I asked "If Bunker is so easy, what are your International scores at Ontelaunee? Do you have the same average at Bunker as you do at ATA 27?" You didn't answer. For those who don't know, Oleo lives just across town from a great gun club that has a bunker trap.

If it's so easy, what is your Bunker average? I saw where you shoot over 97% in ATA. Don't you ever get tired of something that's almost automatic? Don't you want to be the best shooter you can be? It's obvious you're very talented, far more talented than everyone else at the range. Why not put those great skills to the test?

If you could shoot that 97% in Bunker, you would have been the Olympic Gold Medal winner in London in 2012. Your country needs you at Rio in 2016. Please contact the USA team, immediately. Qualifiers are currently ongoing for 2016. http://www.usashooting.org/library/...ualification_System_EN_-_Version_Feb_2014.pdf

 

smoking357, what you fail to admit is bunker boys at most ranges prefer not to keep records of their dismal scores. After all, most are nothing but other shooting discipline washouts while professing to be participating in some higher calling. I'm sure you're very aware none are ever going to the Olympics, play a dime in option money or win much more that a pot metal trinket.

Keeping scores for nothing except maybe an occasional butt slap from your few fellow participants seems to me your preferred reward. That leaves me out!

 

Yeah, no. That sounds like a real bad attempt at chickening out.

From the Ontelaunee International Trap website:

May
3 Sunday Spring Match – 100 Targets
30 & 31 Sat & Sun Mid-Atlantic States Championship / Bristow Memorial

August
8 & 9 Sat & Sun Gran Prix Of America / Gitman Memorial

October
4 Sunday Club Championship – 100 Targets

Looks there are some great International Trap events with actual scores kept and actual winners determined, just down the street from your house. If International is so easy, why don't you, being the ringer you are, go over there and win these events, and show us all how it's done.

I even see where Rocco Bara and John Wolfington post International Trap schedules and invitations to shoot over on the other site. $5.00 for a round of 25 International is an outstanding deal. Not only is an awesome range close, it's affordable. How lucky you are. I might check with Mssrs. Bara and Wolfington to see if you've ever participated in any of their International events and embarrassed the competition.

By the way, I love how the Club Champion can be confidently settled with 100 shots. That's exactly what I'm talking about, and it perfectly proves the point of why a tougher game is needed.

 

I hate to break your heart again but the Ontelaunee bunker hasn't come close to living up to expectations. Those few shooters who participate at $5/rd. fail to contribute much to the club's bottom line. The local trap league sends nearly 400 shooters and 100 squads through their traps on Sundays. If they have such a golden opportunity as you seem to believe they sure as heck don't care for it.

That said, Lehigh Valley Sporting Clays is doing extremely well with a full parking lot each weekend and well attended during the week. I suppose you also believe Sporting is too easy. Well, I did break 96/100 (especially since a shooter broke 100 on my squad)there in a tournament there one day but the course was fluffed up. I'm not that good but not afraid either.

So, we can say bunker trap has few followers (mostly ATA trap washouts) is not cost effective for a club (I'd much rather have 500 entries a day than 10) and has little appeal to the masses. Since you never participated in ATA trap you couldn't possibly know that!

 

Please don't tell us again bunker boys aren't ATA washouts. One of it's biggest promoters and Ontelaunees original organizer couldn't carry much above an 82% Singles average when he shot ATA. He's not alone I'm sure!

 

Proving you've missed the entire point, because you've only been listening to yourself.

Lame attempt at trying to bring Sporting Clays onto your side to keep you from losing the discussion, but no.

We're talking about Trap, not Sporting Clays.

Like you said in 2012: "fitasc-what does it have to do with Trapshooting?"

If Bunker is for ATA washouts, we should expect to see your score improve at Bunker. You're certainly no washout. You're one of the best. It's well known that you're over 97% in ATA. Some years, you're over 98%. That's impressive. I'll tell you what, if you shoot in the Bristow Memorial on May 30 and 31 and if you shoot 97% or better over 200 rounds, I'll refund you your entry fee and eight boxes of shells.

Show those "washouts" how an ATA king can make a mockery of their "washout" sport.

If you don't break 97% over 200, you agree to shoot at least two rounds of International at Onletaunee every day the International range is open for practice for the rest of 2015, on your own dime, of course.

If you win the Challenge, a day of shooting is paid for, all glory will be yours; you'll have upheld the honor of ATA; you will be immortalized as a truly phenomenal shooter, and I will write a post here proclaiming your accomplishment and congratulating you. If you lose, all you're out is that you get to do more shooting on the year, and you get to support a local club.

Do you accept the Oleodog Challenge?

 

Funny you say that.

In 2013, you said: "I've been shooting ATA targets since 1972."

You didn't shoot Trap between 1963 and 1972?

 

Just what I thought. Looks like you're a Bunker washout. Until you post your Bunker averages or show where you've ever run a Bunker course, your opinion on that tougher sport is meaningless and without any value. Looks like you tried it and couldn't make the grade, so you ran back home.

Nobody should listen to anything you have to say about Bunker, because we all see all you're doing is ducking shooting a tougher target.

 

I tried to shoot bunker at Ontelaunee once but made the mistake of standing downwind from the facility. Phew! The foreigners stench sure cranked up my allergies.

That said, I've been shooting Trap since 1963 and ATA Trap since 1972. So what?

Most intelligent persons can tell by the numbers that bunker trap, even close to a large population center, has little chance of success. Unfortunate, maybe, but as I said, if you stink at ATA Trap and still like to shoot then head over to the bunker. Your scores will never follow you into the grave like those in the official ATA records book.

When you get an opportunity to post some of your own scores in that very large book you might gain some credibility as a shooter of some talent. Until then, you're just another wannabe!

 

Like I said, you don't get the right to talk about Bunker until you post some Bunker scores or run a Bunker club. Until you shoot some Bunker and do better at it than ATA all you are is a talking chicken.

 

So if I go over there and break 19/25 while the regular bunker boys break their typical 12/25 they'll all nod in unison (all 5 of 'em) that I'm not up to their standards.

Reminds me of the time a few bunker boys challenged me to a money match from the 27 yd. line. When I walked to the line with my unsingle barrel they informed me I should use my double barrel as the rules allowed two shots. I simply let 'em know that all I'll need is one shot to beat them. Of course, I ran 'em, challenged them to another match to which they replied "no mas".

Besides that, since I shoot release I wouldn't be welcomed to any bunker shoot as the foreign element (the same ones who can't find the deodorant aisle in the supermarket) banned release triggers-an almost exclusive American made product!

 

What was the OP?

Sounds like we got off track a little. Kinda rubbed the wall going into turn four.

Flyersarebest

 

That would probably be an off day for you. The way you talk, I'm expecting 97/100 from you on the Bunker range.

 

Back on April 23/24, Oleo tried to wreck the field because he saw he couldn't win this race.

He's been throwing debris on the course since then, trying to keep clean laps from being run.

He's got an excuse for everything. Why he won't shoot Bunker; why he opposes harder angles, why he opposes the Real Trap that ATA made its name on. We've seen everything from deodorant, foreign languages, release triggers, reading traps to load weight in one flailing excuse after another. It's pathetic, but he's easy to beat.

He'll flip from calling 7/8 ounce loads "pipsqueak," and turn right around and say 1 ounce loads are great.

It sure is great to have a new place to post to so we can finally put the grumps in their place.

 

Ollie thawhy I suggested they use a GMV trap at 45 degree angles, and 50-52 yard targets To Neil Winston for their test at the Grand to achieve more angle.
Dr.longshot

 

All this nonsense from the mouth of a non-trapshooter. Sorry, I'm off to the gun club to hone my craft. You can continue to dream a way to beat Harlan if you ever find your way to a Trapshoot. 95% of you bunker boys aren't qualified to carry my shellbag-including you. About the only thing you know about Trapshooting is what you've read in a book!

Dr.L, forget the Superstars, their being phased out all over the country. I like 'em but parts are getting hard to find. PAT owns the market-like it or not!

 

You want the dawg to put up his numbers. How about you putting up yours or are you just a mouth. If you are so great as implied on bunker then why don't you go a ATA trap shoot and shoot all three events, fluff targets so you say. Let us see those numbers or shut the hell up.

Lefty

 

Now you're really getting desperate. Not that much you say ever makes any sense, but this is below even your low standards.

So were you a non-trapshooter from 1963 to 1972?

Or are there more ways to shoot Trap than appear in ATA books? Is every round shot at every club around the country recorded in a ATA book? Of course, not. You should slink away like a scolded dog.

Your desperation posts are worth a laugh, but they really embarrass ATA shooters.

Of all people, you should really be the quietest, as nothing you have ever said has been bound by logic. You're a "me-too" tag-along poster who never, ever, adds anything insightful.

Your latest pathetic argument has, in total, what you literally are: nothing. Did you even read the posts? Can you understand the discussion? Really? Really? Really? Do you understand any of this? I don't think so.

I'll spell this out for you, since I feel like standing on your face, a while. I said Bunker is hard. Oleo said Bunker is easy. Oleo brags about his scores. Oleo brags about beating Bunker shooters. Time for Oleo to show us how easy Bunker is. I've stipulated (look that word up) to Bunker being harder. Do you understand relevance? Do you? Really? Do you?

You never make any sense, and your latest post was in line with the low quality of thought we expect from you.

I'll grind my foot into your face a little more as I explain what's at stake. I say ATA Trap is too easy and needs to be more difficult. If Oleo goes over to Bunker and improves his scores and waxes the field, he disproves my argument. Get it? Take a few days before you respond. Ask some third-grade teachers to help you with the rudiments of comprehension.

Do you finally see how your posts make no sense, whatsoever? If you do respond, a simple "thank you" will suffice.

 

Good Dr., You can provide many well-thought and ready-made solutions to the ATA, but they won't go anywhere. We're all just going to be forced to admit that there is a large group of American shooters who don't want a harder target, because they have the game memorized, as it is.

This sheltered group won't let you touch speed, angle or elevation, as they have all that memorized. All they're willing to do is to back up a few yards to shoot the same exact target that they've seen for decades.

I would be thrilled if my local club set up a 1934 ATA field.

 

silly 357, there's a much larger group that can't handle what's thrown today. What makes you think attendance will grow if we succumb to your nonsensical theory we need to speed up and change elevations of today's targets? Heck, according to you we need throw away all our current traps and shoot wobble. Anyone with half a brain knows how few shooters are interested in wobble or bunker. Anyone with less than half a brain can remember how the ATA dropped the wobble event at the Grand for lack of interest. Even a complete idiot knows that today's trap configurations do not lend themselves well to wobble shooting or extreme angles!

I suppose we know where that puts you!

 

It's also obvious that 357 never managed or attended any trap facility. Even a simpleton would realize the problems associated with throwing targets multiple heights and distances. It sure would be interesting for trapsetters and even more interesting for competitors when traps break down and squads need reshuffling. All these problems created because some non-shooter believes he'd beat Harlan by changing to his game-whatever it is.

357 continues to prove on both sites he's clueless!

 

You have an appropriate name because you certainly smoking something. I doubt that you wear a hat because they don 't make them that large. You actually have no argument about trap targets because you have proved you know nothing of them or the sport. So poke your fun at others but look in the mirror for the real fool.

Fluff targets coming this week all 1400 of them at the Great Lakes Grand to bad you won't be there.

Lefty

 

Just because you're chicken and scared doesn't make something "nonsensical."

American/DTL can still be kept around, but it shouldn't be the format used in championship shooting. All championship competitions and any competition that pays points should be shot in a more challenging format. Short and Tight DTL can always be kept for novices/youths and seniors.

Unless we bring back 1934 Trap. That's a worthy game.

Impose the change to a tougher game; let the stubborn die off, and new generations will only have a memory of a tougher sport. The records from 1955 to 2015 can be called the "Generous Era." A transitional phase of about 10 years should be expected.

The bottom line is that you're afraid to shoot anything tougher.

As for attendance, look at pistol competitions. Those are fairly involved, these days, and high numbers of shooters across the country are enjoying very challenging action disciplines.

 

You just really embarrassed yourself. All you've proven is that you're not as smart as Europeans, South Americans, Arabs, Asians, and all the smarter people than you around the world who have wonderful clubs where millions of targets are thrown "multiple heights and distances."

Glad nobody will be inviting you to run a World Cup range.

 

Here's a few quotes from loser boy smoking357.

"I stopped shooting over two years ago. Shells got too expensive."

"ATA Trap takes some learning but once you figure out how to lead those HARD angles on 1 and 5 and not over think post 3 , you're getting in the 20's pretty regularly."

"I got to the point where I'm not bad at American Trap. I'm from the video game generation. If I don't measure up I lose interest. I'm not going to spend over $50. break a 92-96 targets only to get told I suck".

Go home to mommy junior-she's calling you for dinner!

 

Not only are you a coward, you're a despicable liar. Since you're a coward, a loser and not a man of integrity, I'm forced to repeat my statement.

"I stopped shooting over two years ago. Shells got too expensive, and I lost interest in American targets."

Note the conjoined statement (look up any big words that throw you). I don't suppose you took much in the way of Literature to allow you to understand the effect of the conjunction?

You lost the argument. You've been exposed as a coward and a fearful shooter. You've been exposed as an unintelligent person. You're not even a respected shooter in your own hometown.

Shouldn't you quit before you do any further damage to your reputation?

I just found another lie from your dishonest mouth:

You quoted me as saying this:

What was said was this:

"I got to the point where I'm not bad at American trap. I'm from the video game generation. If I don't level up, I lose interest. I'm not going to spend over $50 to hit from 92-96 targets only to get told those averages suck."

You're really a piece of trash, Oleo. You're a liar, dishonest, worthless, disreputable.

 

Lighten it up boys, it's starting to sound like that old worn out site.

Flyersarebest

 

You created a wonderful new site, but one of the worst posters from the old place has infected it. I don't mind a spirited disagreement, but Oleo just flat-out lies when he loses. There's no excuse for that.

 

Another quote from our resident wannabe.

"I doubt I'd even shoot wobble at current shell prices."

357, you've been exposed as a non-shooting troll. Move along son!

 

Smokin357, I don't know oleolliedawg but I do know people who know him. You are out of line, kinda like this B xxxxxx guy from IN who has never registered a ATA target and has been removed from several shooting sites for antics just like what you are posting.

Does this B xxxxxx guy ring a bell?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Warning: Be careful not to give too much private info on folks who may be members. You do not have to shoot ATA to post here..........mods

 

I honestly believe that targets should be set where it is practically impossible to break them all from the 27 yard line, that way there is not a lot of shooters bunched up with 100 straights.

A 97 would win first place, this will be a competitive target, and a close yardage shooter would have the advantage of breaking a better score.

We need a competitive score that will separate the real shooters from those that shoot the targets that are being thrown today at ATA Registered shoots.

A trap machine that can throw an absolutely wide angle on a more regular basis than a Pat Trap of today throws.

The trap machine needs a longer arm approx. 18 inches long to make this happen.

That way we can get wider angles and more target spin for target stability.

This has been needed in the ATA for a long time, a long over due change.

Shotguns have been improved so much over the last 20 years. Shells have been improved, in powder, hard shot, and faster speeds.

There is nothing better than a competitive target.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Gary, the PAT trap is very capable of throwing a much more difficult target than your giving them credit for! It's our ATA speed limits, especially in our doubles game, that PAT trap have trouble stabilizing targets as they should be!

Have you put a speed gun on targets at Charlies? The bio targets he throws? Hard as hades to smoke, why do you suppose that is? Guys are using all sizes of shot, much larger than allowed in ATA shooting. If those targets had more speed, it would add a lot more rpms, more stabilized and actually break better than they do now. BUT, that would make those extra long shots a heck of a lot more difficult don't you think?

HAP

 

I've seen 15, 20 maybe even more 100 straights on 16's but no where near that number on 27 yard handicap.

So my question is " what is the most 100 straights from the 27 yard line anyone has seen in one event?"

 

Our game should never be so difficult to not break them all. That wouldn't be very encouraging to say the least for those wanting to be the best they possibly can.

Leonidas, nor should there be so many straights in handicap, even if there were only two. Besides it's not about shooting all 100s, it's about the high handicap averages by the best of the best. Recall when Arnold Reigger was a lone dominate handicap shooter and what took place then?

The culmination of easier targets for all raised all events top guns averages and destroyed a long running selling point for new membership in ATA shooting. We don't have a problem attracting new shooters at all as trap is a fun game! Once they realize the time and costs necessary to be somewhat competitive, they leave in droves? Our problem is keeping enough of them in the game long enough to actually grow the sport! That's the primary difference in the easy targets today and the more difficult targets of yesteryear. It's about perception for most new members we attract.

HAP

 

Yes we have put a speed gun on Charlies targets they are 40=41mph, they need to be faster.
Gary

 

Hap most are shooting 7.5s and Top Gun shells at Charlies, I shoot 1 oz 7.5s all the time there and do not have a problem breaking targets, but I shoot a full choke tube, at all targets. Most are shooting 2 3/4 dram shells too.
That is all that Darrel Dowler and his son shoot. We have tried time and time again to get Charlie to throw a faster target, but he will not listen. Would like them at least 45mph. Kinzy has checked them many times.
Gary

 

We can't place any blame at all on whatever kind of machine set at such a speed?

HAP

 

Ollidawg: Do we need wider angles and faster targets?

Hap: Says one thing we need tougher targets, do we need tougher targets Hap?

You then said it will drive shooters away, on your thread
on this very site!!

Make your stand on what we need.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

My stand? Or a rant similar to yours demanding wholesale changes overnight? That just ain't gonna happen regardless of how much you or anyone else pound their keyboards! How many minds has your idea and writing methods changed so far? Several even refuse to attend shoots in Ohio because of rants? That's a shame to our sport on both party's.

My views are exactly the same as our prior history dictated, further handicap the ones deemed to have mastered the handicap game, period. Something that should have occurred in the late 70s to early 80s when lots of 100s were being shot from the max.

Wholesale changes may drive away some shooters struggling with todays format, why would we want to drive away anyone today under those circumstances? Even a few would be a tremendous loss today! Our sport got to this point one small step at a time, an accumulated change for easier set targets. Over the years I've stated I felt that was a mistake for our sport and still believe that.

It's all about how others perceive our games, especially the game of handicap. How should we approach methods to get back the draw of more members ATA trap once held? One small step at a time, just like it was reversed, will be the only way.

HAP

 

I used to believe tough targets would drive gunners from trapshooting but I change my view some years ago. While it sounds completely logical that allowing novices or lower class shooters to break higher scores by reducing the difficulty of trap, there is no proof that it worked in my opinion and I would hope that most agree that seeing several 196's in Class D has been proven to dishearten many true 88 average shooters.

In my view a winning score is more important than a perfect or near perfect score. Most sports were not designed to have perfect scores in abundance. Those higher scores were meant to be marveled at and occurring every once is a great while.

While I know of now better method of handicapping shooters, our handicap system is not perfect and often times shooters earn yardage for a high score that may be their only one of the season. And at the Grand American tournament, shooters with an 89 handicap average are locked into their earned yardage for 2 years when they card a high score. I guess what I'm saying is that many shooters are over handicapped while many others are under handicapped. There has not been true equality throughout the history of handicapping and I see no way to achieve true fairness. This is about the best system devised for the game.

I'm one who supports a return to at least the straightaway angle settings from Post 1 & 5 as in the past and 50 yard target for all disciplines. Yes, that includes doubles. If it is found that the long-yardage shooters dominate, then and only then should increasing the distance be discussed.

Of course, dominating the sport is subjective. Those with more skill and who have earned their way to the long-yardage marks should be among the top scores. They worked to become better shots. On the other hand, you'll see that most of the Grand American Champions have not been long yardage shooters at all. Short yardage shooters dominate that championship.

Did you know that here have only been eleven (11) long yardage shooters (25-27) Grand American Handicap Champs?

Only one (1) shooter from 25 yards has ever won the GAH.
1933 - Walter Beaver won with a score of 98.

Only two (2) from the 26 yard mark (1 at 26; 1 and 26.5yds)
1990 - Pat Neff won with a score of 99 from the 26.
2012 - Don Herdes won with a score of 100 from the 26.5.

Only nine (9) shooters have won the GAH Championship from the 27 yard mark since it was instituted in 1955.

1978 - Reg Jachimowski scored 100
1983 - Roger Smith scored 100
1988 - Britt Robinson scored 100
1995 - Jason Booker scored 99
2002 - Dennis DeVaux scored 100
2003 - Eric Shroyer scored 100
2006 - Kay Ohye scored 99
2008 - Pat Lamont scored 100
2009 - Bob Munson scored 100

In 1991, 1997 and 1998, Fred Kaschak, Rich Conner and Roland Steadman each were GAH Winners from 24.5 yards with scores of, 100, 99 and 100 respectively. John Steffen in 1974 was the only other shooter from 24 yards to win the Grand American when he broke 99 handicapped at 24.5 yards.

This in not domination of the World's Championship by long yardage achievers in my view. Take a look in the back of the GAH Program booklet at the short yardage most of the GAH Winners shot from.

Remember, the angles were narrowed in the 1997 target year to make the game easier in order to attract and retain shooters. This also made it easier for those achieving the long-yardage posts so it is expected that there will be an increase in the number of GAH Champions from the greater distances going forward.

I've not heard one comment that perhaps the 25-27 yard shooters might be penalized rather than fairly handicapped during the Grand American Handicap and the numbers just may be proof of this. Will adding three (3) more yards, placing the back fence at 30 yards effectively take the best shooters completely out of the competition for the championship?

Enjoy Our History

 

Kenny, I've never doubted ATA shooters would shy away from tougher target formats until we were convinced easy was better and the rule was changed. Getting the masses today to accept such a major change would be mind boggling to say the least?

Shooters including Delegates, EC, CHC and Director must decide if they want what's deemed best for their personal scores or for what's best for our sport, long term I'd think. A comparison of our growth patterns since 1955 should give us valuable guidance information. Trap&Field in the mid 70s wrote that trap shooting was the fastest growing single participant sport in the nation! AND, the safest too!What the heck happened during the 80s that changed that pattern? I think we all know it as the beginning of the cheating the settings era and here we are today.

If this crippled up old trap shooter can break 49 of 50 from 30 yards, I can only imagine what the top of the heap shooters can do. I also feel, should we ever have another yardage increase, it should be under far different parameters than our last increase! One that must be maintained by yearly averages rather than a max place to stand.

HAP

 

HAP I understand your position and agree with you that it would be a monumental task or maybe an impossible task to return to the old target angle settings. It would take much time and every shooter would have to be taught about our history to even give the idea a chance. I don't expect it to every happen.

I don't think it will be hard for good shooters to post good scores from 30 yards. As I've mentioned before the yardage shot in the Grand American Handicaps at Live Birds were from 26 - 33 yards.

1893 - Robert A. Welch, of Philadelphia, PA, killed 23 of 25 pigeons from 28 yards.
1894 - Thomas W. Morfey, of Paterson, NJ, killed 25 straight from 28 yards and 10 of 12 in shootoff.
1895 - John G. Messner, of Pittsburgh, PA, killed 25 straight and 10 straight in shootoff from 25 yards.
1896 - Orrin R. Dickey, of Roxbury, MA, killed 24 from 29 yards.
1897 - Thomas A. Marshall, of Keithsburg, IL, killed 25 straight from 28 yards.
1898 - Elijah D. Fulford, of Utica, NY, killed 25 straight from 29 yards and 23 straight in shootoff.
1899 - Thomas A. Marshall, of Keithsburg, IL, killed 25 straight from 29 yards and 33 straight in shootoff.
1900 - Howard D. Bates, of Ridgetown, ON, CANADA, killed 25 straight from 28 yards and 34 straight in shootoff.
1901 - Eugene C. Griffith, of Pascoag, RI, killed 25 straight from 28 yards.
1902 - Herman C. Hirschy, of Minneapolis, MN, killed 25 straight from 29 yards and 53 straight in shootoff.

I should also point out that Mr. Hirschy killed 78 straight to win the GAH Championship and also killed every pigeon he aimed at during the Grand American tournament . . . . 102 in all.

My lack of support for increased yardage in the handicap game is largely due to what I've learned from our history. The next rule change if concrete is poured at 30 yards will be another demand for the narrowing of target angles and I don't think it has been good for the sport.

I do believe the added yardage will reduce a shooter's consistency and high handicap average which will make the number of "back fencers" winning the GAH Championship even more rare. All things being equal and fair, as called for by many competitors, should have produced a few more Champions from long distance shooting. It has not.

Enjoy Our History

 

1,105 shooters on Saturday for the PA Singles title-only 4 broke 200. PA is not the easiest place to shoot and doesn't need a tougher target by those numbers!!

 

Not that it matters dawg but there were 5

 

Oops!

 

That statement doesn't follow from its premises. It's not how we grade papers or set curves.

If we want a target that has 75% of shooters shooting below 85/100, looking at 4 shooters out of 1105, .003% of participants, tells us nothing.

 

Oh, tell us how many 100's you've ever broken? Maybe I should stick to 25's as it's probably in your ability range!