Singles and classifications

I have given some thought to the handicap and singles classification issues that seem to plague registered shooting in some ways ... The thoughts (my thoughts) on handicap was outlined in another posting on this site ... Singles are boring to me hense I have seldom shot them other than when playing and or practice ...

Singles could be made as such:

16 yards by classification and established yardage .. (Ladies and Juniors)

17 yard singles by classification and established yardage ... (Men start)

18 yard singles by classification and established yardage ... (Estab shooters)


If these two were combined the 20 to 25 yardline would be nothing other
than concrete from days gone by ... This would also separate the monies
accordingly based on which singles (yardage) and classification ...
Not sure if this would work but again
nothing ventured, nothing gained ...
Just something for people to give a little thought to that may and or may
not improve the sport of Trapshooting for all involved ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


I have always felt that any "Championship" events should have a mandatory purse ($10.00 min) and up to $XX.XX for higher catagory shooters (maybe even only at the Satelite Grands to get it started)... These monie's would put more skin in the game and maybe not have a real adverse effect on participants, but make it more competitive ... People are always complaining that there is no money in the game anymore and they are 100% correct, so this could change that without making any major increases for any average shooters ... It would give all shooters something to shoot for that could add up to a substancial win and help off set expenses ... The monies could be divided in such a way that more people would be able to get a piece of the so called pie ... The Big Guns again would be separated and shoot for their money ... Just a thought but any and all input is welcome ...

 

would a shooter move back from 16 to 18 in some sort of structured process? What would that be?

Would there be trophies for each class at each yardline? What about the special categories? Would there be separate trophies for each SC at each yardline?

 

wpt...lots there to think about but one question at a time.

As per your statement about mandatory purse:

How would this make it more competitive?

 

IG and FG,
The particulars would have to be worked out and made to be the in best interest of all involved ... Class AAA, and AA standing at the same (16) yardline as a real D shooter just don't somehow logic out, move them to 18 and see what or if that makes a difference ... This is only in the thought stages is nothing is absolute ...

Money brings out the best in most shooters expecially if they have gotten a taste of it a few times ... The "Top Guns" are not shooting for trophy's that they can display on the mantel, they are there and playing all of the money so it pays dividends ... We are talking "Championship Events" all others would be optional ... People used to play some of the money in years gone by that were not out of reach including yours truly and nothing was more satisfying than play $10.00 and get $100.00 back and be doing something that you enjoy besides ... Things can be structured in such a way that it keeps the Sharks out giving the average shooter a chance ... I used to shoot in some Calcutta's that paid very nicely, but the side bets added to the attraction ...
If a person shoots all week and then plays a $10.00 ($10.00x3 = $30.00) dollar bill on the Champion events that sure won't break many banks (I hope) ... The Big Gun's can make it $50.00 if they so please, and they will for the most part ... These are just some thoughts of maybe bringing back some of the excitement of winning that existed many years ago ... Any and all thoughts are welcome ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

People cry about handicap all the time, never mention singles or doubles ... The ATA will most probably never make any changes that can eliminate lop sided advantages, which is not the worse thing in the world if they make additions and alterations to separate the few from the many ... Ideas are more than welcome and encouraged ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bill, the way I see it, classes added to the handicap game would cause shooting costs to rise dramatically. I'd think adding extra costs today wouldn't benefit our sports growth at all, more than likely drive away shooters even faster?

We should address the perception our game has on the retention of newer possible long term members? We don't have too much of a problem attracting new shooters to try our game, we do have a dismal record of keeping them around long enough to hook themselves though.

We can't introduce a rule to make winners out of an average shooter regardless of how easy the targets happen to be set? Such changes has only made it easier for the accomplished shooter to have higher scores and averages. How has that helped grow our sport? It hasn't because once the realization hits a new member how much money and time he'll have to put in to compete, they leave in droves.

We need small changes in the same fashion as brought about our easier format to be accepted as being best for the longevity of our sports growth. Further handicapping those mastering the handicap game would be a great place for starters. Done much different than the last time we had an increase though. A new goal that must be earned and maintained or mandated to take their reductions back toward the 27 yard line. Easier on the costs of our sport, club costs kept to a minimum while further handicapping those that master the game of handicap! History speaks volumes that this approach actually works in the sport of trap.

HAP

 

Manditory purses? Looks like I could save my ATA yearly fees.

 

Grand American Championship shot from Max Yardage 27 or 30, anyone can shoot for it at that yardage.$50.00 entry

Yardage Championships (20-22) (23-26) just 2 groups. 1 Trophy each group

Women same yardages just 2 trophies

Jrs and Sub Jrs 2 trophys 1 each all yardages

Vets & Sr Vets same as 2nd group only combined 1 trophy

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Gary, I'd think if we're to ever introduce change to our sport, it certainly wouldn't be a wholesale slaughter of the game as most know it today? The way I read your post above is just that in a nutshell.

Why not give serious thought to something actually attainable that people may buy into as a good change? Remember, we got to this point in our sport one change at a time. Reversing that will take some thinking outside the box from people wanting what's best for our sport rather than their own self egos. It will be tough getting people to accept tougher game standards once they taste the candy of easy?

What exactly is the purpose of our handicap game? Todays mentality seems to think the goal is to shoot well enough to make it to the max yardage. What isn't considered is how easy it once was for some to get there via a high score of peanuts yet the high among a minimum number of contestants! 15 shooters sticks in my mind from the prior rule? Thank goodness that was changed somewhat to help slow the growth of the max group. I point this out only to show how easy it was for some wanting that goal so bad.

Never should our organization create another max yardage that may be attained under those same set of standards. Wholesale change isn't going to happen regardless of how many times it's called for by a few! Give thought to actually handicapping those deemed to have somewhat mastered our game of handicap, in a fair way, and proceed from that point. We should never handicap a shooter beyond his equipment's or ability range either! It just so happens the 27 max doesn't do that to todays shooters and our equipment that's changed so drastically since our last yardage increase. One step at a time.

HAP

 

Crap! I knew I would be drawn into this one since it's always been a pet peeve of mine. I'm sure I will get some flak, but here's my take on the whole "growing the sport, handicap's broken, no money" bullshit that continually permeates these threads. If we want any shot at all at getting back to the origins of our sport, we must take it ALL the way back to what made it what it was. This means 3 hole targets, set to the 50 yard stake, 10ft. high, 10 yards in front of the house. No radar gun, set the targets to the weather. Then shoot the damn things, No exceptions. Mandatory yardage reductions are essential to make the handicap system work as it was designed. This rule was originally designed to make the handicap system work, which it did, and was one of the first things, along with 2 hole targets, the ATA looked the other way on to screw it up. Again, no exceptions. Mandatory purses for ALL handicap events. It doesn't have to be a large entry fee, just something reasonable depending on the shoot. The larger the shoot, the larger the entry fee for that purse would be. There is no money in trapshooting because no one is putting any money into it. Why? Because they are not competitive enough to win anything at their current yardage. With a mandatory reduction system in place, they would begin to be competitive again and win some money. When you win money playing the options, you play more of them. What's not to like here? Sure, we will get a lot of pissing and moaning from the shooters that the ATA has been pandering to for all these years with soft, short, puff ball targets that just want to win a trinket to show off to their friends, but, that's not what this game is about, and never has been. Personally, I would rather see registered shooting decline by another 25% and have shoots that really mean something again than to continue shooting registered shooting as it is now. If we don't make some wholesale changes, and quickly, we will continue down the self destructing path we are now on. Every time you turn around, the ATA does something to dilute the game and dumb it down. Just continue to add more worthless classes that win more worthless trophies rather than show some back bone and trim it back and right the ship..... Ok, fire away...

 

LOL, Dan, why not tell us how you truly feel? I wholeheartedly agree with what you say needs done to right our tipping canoe!

Gary B. has suggested this same thing almost forever on every shooting site available. Looking back, I couldn't see many shooters at all would agree with such a drastic change today? For that reason alone, I suggested we work on further handicapping those deemed to have mastered our handicap portion of the game. That exactly how it's been done since day one. Remember Dan, we got to this point one step at a time that slid by the shooters paying no attention to the long lasting results?

Our game has lost the once held perception that we didn't need to shoot a near perfect score to remain in the hunt. That perception helped get more shooters involved that stayed with the game longer, hoping to cash in eventually? Trap doesn't have a problem attracting shooters to try our games, we have a tough chore in keeping them around long enough for them to become hooked and they leave in droves!

I say first things first, further handicap those mastering our handicap game as it is today. That may be just enough to at least help destroy the perfection attitude stuck on our game. A step at a time instead of a wholesale change to get our sport back in line for which it was intended.

HAP

 

Hap
While I agree with you, in theory, we don't have enough time left to take it one step at a time before the bottom falls out. It will be way too late. Does anyone want to wait another 5-10 years to fix what needs fixing NOW? I sure as heck don't. I'm 70 years old and running out of "just wait and see" time. If some shooters want to leave our sport because of some of the changes I mentioned, let them go. They are not real registered trap shooters anyway and registered shooting would be better off without them. They are players, recreational shooters, league shooters, meat shooters, and part time wanna be's that honestly think that, since the game has gotten so much easier, they have a chance to win a POS trinket to make themselves feel good. Therein lies the problem, Hap. They pay only the entry fees to try to win that junk. No options, no purses, no calcutta, nothing. Do we really need these shooters? Is this how we bring back our sport to what it was? The REAL trap shooters among them will stick with it and play by the new rules because they truly want to be competitive and will work for what ever they win, regardless of what it takes. Growing the sport is as simple today as it was back in the past: Getting the money back into the sport via mandatory purses, options, calcuttas, etc. is the enticement to enter the arena. Granted, not all will stay, but, those that do will continue to play the money because that's what this sport is all about. If our shooter base decreases, the ATA needs to decrease it's overhead as well to coincide with it. Registered clubs will do just fine with the decrease because they will no longer have to buy as many trophies to satisfy all the additional classes we now have which can save some of them considerable money..... I have tried, over the past few years, to get on board with some of the thinking regarding our dilemma and make some sense of how it is going to help, but, I now think it's all just a bunch of warm and fuzzy rhetoric that solves nothing, and never will. I'm entrenched in my feelings now because I really feel that it's the only way to take care of business. Kind of like "tough love" if you know what I mean.....

 

Hap I made suggestions, what would you suggest we change and when?
Gary Bryant

 

It would certainly be nice to just snap our fingers and get the changes we know necessary to make our game as it once was, or even better. In my way of seeing what has happened and who's pushed it to this point, any change toward a tougher target setting will be EXTREMELY difficult!

When Neal Crausbay made the attempt to follow our rules, he was in that same difficult position. Some of the delegates did ask their constituents how they prefer the target settings and how they should vote. They voted for the easier format, period. Some delegates even voted against their states wishes voting for the easy settings! Needless to say they were promptly voted out but the damage was already done. (It was like asking kids if they'd like more candy?)

The only way to get anything changed is through your delegates, period. It would take many more than I feel would vote that way or even voice their opinion on it! Matter of fact, I know of none that would venture such a vote today, do you?

Dan, your absolutely correct, I don't think either of us will ever see our sport as it should be again! We've allowed way too many changes to completely reverse the damage done. If, and I say it's a huge IF, we ever happen to get enough delegates together to actually change anything, it will come in small steps and not the wholesale changes we know would be best for our sport.

My suggestion would be to further handicap those deemed to have mastered our max yardage. We needed a two yard increase back in the late 70s or early 80s when shooters began breaking 100s from there. There been so many advancements in both guns and ammo since then, two yards certainly isn't enough today!! We need a 30 yard line but under a totally different set of parameters than the last time we increased the yardage max! A new max, not merely a place to nickel and dime one to earn that place to stand as our 27 was!

I wish my sport all the best of luck because it's going to need it if we're ever to prosper again.

HAP