Vote to remove or keep the 18 yard handicap

We have been discussing this. It is time to tally the votes.

 

The best shooters are not on the 18. Lt people shoot where their skill dictates.

 

Why call it handicap then? 18 is not a handicap. Really?

 

One of the best won the GAH from the 18 last year.

 

I almost voted for the 15. Can we re-vote?

 

I guess not everyone is amazing as you are at shooting. I know one guy who has been on the 18 for three years, and watched my shooting buddy stay on the 18 for 8300 targets. Both would have loved to get off it earlier, but their skill was not enough to do it. And both have a singles average below 90. Move them farther back and they will suffer even more and shoot even less.

I see you old timers whine about the lack of money, short yardage, decline in number of shooters, and you want to take away a game poor/low volume shooters can play.

All of this why I see little to no complaints about the absurd number of categories. Which raises all of our target prices for buying a bunch more trophies, and making shoot offs more complicated.

 

What is the difference between your friend's 16 and 18 yard averages.

 

Does six feet make that much difference at 18?

 

Just My 2 cents, but have to say, that I think the 18 yard handicap shooting should end. Men, 18 years or older, no closer than 20 yards. Ladies and kids no closer than the 19. I've noticed in the west, (PITA), a majority of the shooters strive to shoot longer yardages. What little ATA shooting I've done in the East, seems like a lot of shooters are really into staying as short a yardage as possible. No more foo foo line!

 

It's called handicap for a reason.

 

And that reason is ???

 

To make it more difficult than 16 's.

 

That is the thinking that is controlling, it should not be. It is not about making it more difficult, it is to make the competition equal. As ATA by definition says, though by rule does not make happen.

ATA Website: "As in other sports, handicapping strives to make the competition equal." Notice it says "equal", not "more difficult".

I suppose you could hang your perception on "strive", but I think everyone knows it could be made better by two simple rule changes. In which the 18 probably could stay, at least in an interim.

Shoot well.

John

 

I'll wager that there is very little difference in their average on the 18yd line from their 16yd average. If we want to improve handicap start everyone from the 20yd line. The 4 yds should make a difference from 16 yd scores. No disrespect intended.

 

just under four targets. 86 singles and 82 caps.

 

Handicaps are just that. Handicaps should start on the 20 yard line and no closer.

 

John, I will agree that making the competition equal should be the goal. But the goal should be in the event itself, not between two different events.

 

N

~~~~NO LESS THAN 21 YARDS !!!

 

Distance is a shotguns biggest enemy, 2 yards (6 ft) will make a difference but probably not much of one to most shooters up close ... The simplest and easiest way to offset handicap yardages would be to classify shooters on any given yardage just as they do with 16's and have all of the class'es shoot for their own monies and or trophy's ... If the 27 yardline is going to remain as the maximum yardage, then classify people and have them shoot against each other which would level the playing field to some degree and possibly stir an interest in playing some money again (maybe, maybe not) but if you don't try it you will never know ... (27/A - 27 /B - etc. 26 /A - 26 -B- ect. 25 - A - 25 /B etc )

Personally, I feel that all handicap should be shot from the 25, 26, and 27 yardline with the addition of class'es to separate the different levels of accomplished and novice shooters ... Eliminate all of the "Show up and get a trophy" classes and make it worth while to win ... With the technology today nothing is impossible ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

90 was once a darn good score and 95 got you some big money. Before the shell and angle changes I never saw a 100 with exception to Vandalia. It would take 4,000 shooters to get just 2 perfect scores.

Shake down your delegate!

 

The Delegate we had moved to Colorado, wasn't much on listening to most shooters other than the choosen few anyway ... I don't know the new Delegate, so I would not know much about his agenda ... I do know the former Delegate was at the State shoot humping everyones leg to vote for the person who got elected ... There were two people nominated who would of made a great representative of the shooters of the State of Arizona, but they didn't get in ... So, for the most part it appears everything will pretty much remain the same, although one can hope not ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Unfortunately that happens when a lot of the shooters donot know the people who are running for or their background, or donot know the problems that should be corrected or even care about the problems the person elected is elected on popularity and not the one who could solve the problems. This again is from my experience.

 

It seems to be that now days you can't get good ones to run and have to settle for one of the rest ... I would hesitate to put all of the Delegates in the same class based on some of the ones I have known over the years, but times are changing ... I was also not aware that someone who relocated should or would be out pimping for votes for another Candidate once they are no longer involved in that States business, thats a new one on me also ... Hope there is no more 3 pages letters to Trap and Field that really do not say much, except ramble on and on and on ... I guess we will see what happens and go from there ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Leonidas,

The events in practice are not different. They are the same, just the distance change. I don't believe, if everyone shot to the best of their ability, using their best equipment at every event the 17yd or even the 16 could be used as the starting point of the Handicap game. That is the only goal or should be, to strive for equality.

Somewhere along the line, probably from the very beginning, the "sandbagging" and/or other cheating issues arose, and the starting point was moved back. At one time the singles game was going to be moved back to the 18. It appears with the rule changes of the 90's the game (Handicap) went from relative or dispersed people at the top, to a domination of the 27yd line.

With the domination and other reasons a big fall off of members occurred. The equalizing game of Handicap was now, not equal, or less so anyway in my opinion.

Look at the Grand or recently the Spring Grand, the scores, the scores that would otherwise be winning scores 94 and above are what it appears to be, disproportionate to the attendees entering the event.

At the Grand, the percentage of those who shot a 94 or above from the 27yd line was 44% of the total who shot 94 or above.

At the Spring Grand the 27yd line accounted for 61% of the 94 or above scores.

At the Grand the 27yd line made up about 33% of the entries and at the Spring Grand the 27yd line made up about 38%.

I could be wrong.

One a lighter note. I was in Itaewon yesterday and found this.


[GALLERY=media, 37]IMAG0724[1] by jhunts posted May 6, 2015 at 10:20 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 36]IMAG0723[1] by jhunts posted May 6, 2015 at 10:20 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 35]IMAG0722[1] by jhunts posted May 6, 2015 at 10:20 PM[/GALLERY]

Shoot well.

John

 

Did Leonidas give good massage?

 

Nope, I ask to see him, they said, "그는 결코 이 시설하는 것이었습니다. 일부 초콜릿시겠습니까?(no he never comes to work, would you like some chocolate?") I said, "let him know I stopped by and no thanks, I just had breakfast."

Southwestern Grand overall yards given - 59, given to the 27yd shooters 40 or 67%.
Number of HDCP events 5, 3 of 5 were won by 27yd shooters or 60%.
HDCP Championship score of 94 or above 16 to the 27yd line out of 29 or 55%.
27yd shooters accounted for 31% of the entries in the HDCP Championship event.

Shoot well.

John

 

Is that code for something at the massage parlor?

 

Looking at all ATA shooters from our very beginnings, the best shooters have always risen to be their best and to be the best shooters. It's virtually impossible to create winners with rule changes within reason!

When we compare the average ATA shooter's singles averages we'll see that the majority is already handicapped beyond their own ability at the 16 yard line already!

The goal of handicapping the masses even further would be but another mistake made helping drive more shooters away for our sport! We can't have that at all, especially today under our current set of shooting rules, we don't have a problem attracting new shooters but have a difficult time of them sticking with our sport. Till the real reason they leave in droves is explored with due diligence, I don't look for growth to improve much.

Handicapping those devoting themselves who always continue improving themselves has stymied our sports growth being stuck on our max yardage due to fear of an unknown added difficulty by our leadership. That was something our leadership in the mid fifties took in stride and made the great choice of adding two yards. With todays mentality within our current leaderships thinking, we'd probably still be shooting the 25 yard line as a max!

How most perceive our sport matters a lot! Always has and always will! This almost "perfect" everything mentality may ruin our sport just as skeet did making that game much easier. So much easier is skeet, the ties in that game are shot off under a totally different set of shoot rules that doesn't resemble the original game for those tying for high score today! Shame may be just down the road for those of us that love trap shooting and our history?

HAP

 

Not sure what the answers are, but know the way it is, is not working ... The decline started before the economy took a dive though that probably fortifies it to a degree ... People have found other things that hold their interest and probably are less costly, quite possibly include family participation ... I have talked to a lot of shooters or former shooters and everyone is doing something instead of trapshooting ... Go to the club on any given day and the Sporting Clays courses are full of former trapshooters having a good time, No hassles, no pressures, just fun ... If the ATA does not find a way to expand its membership it will keep falling off until it is no more ... The clubs have always been the biggest promoters of the ATA not the other way around, that might be part of the problem ... Curtail the expenses and gun give away programs, put that money into the clubs programs that do help add to or maintain the members ... Best do something before all is lost and only the memory's remain ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bill, shooter growth began it's decline about the same time as the setting rule was being violated in earnest in the late 80s. That practice being condoned by ATA spread like wildfire all across the country only to be adopted as the best thing for our sport since sliced bread! Our growth has suffered since according to our spots history. With so many other contributing factors today, we must be extremely careful with more of this easy is better moves!!

HAP

 

No, Leonidas is a chocolatier, not the message parlor. As thenughtyshootinggang, I can see why the massage parlor peaked your interest.

Looking at the Dixie Grand numbers using RJ Stuart results it hard to tell the number from each yardage.

Just looking at the top ten scores in each of the events which in this case ended up being 93 and above in every event except event #5.

Of the 77 scores that were 93 and above 23 from 27yd shooters. It is possible that a couple were ?yd shooters and were punched to the 27 prior to today. So 30% of the 93+ scores were from the 27yd line.
2 of the 6 HDCP event were won by 27yd shooters or 33%.
3 of the 6 HDCP event had a R/U as a 27yd shooters or a R/U score from the 27. A score that could have been R/U but was category.

As I cannot tell how many 27yd shooters competed I do not know that percentage in total or each event.

Hap,

I happened to be in a B&N yesterday and picked up a Sporting Clays book. One of the notes by the writer was that the, paraphrasing here, "the same presentation was boring and necessity of perfection has sporting clays in a better position to gain".

Shoot well.

John

 

John, I feel if sporting clays go the easier route for higher scores, if may hinder their growth down the road also. SC target presentations may be tender to tough but if it goes with the easy set, the best shooters will have an easier time of breaking good scores, won't matter too much for the run of the mill shooters. I think the writer is wrong on his prediction of easier being a gain.

That mentality didn't work out so well for the skeet folks, not so much for trap either.

HAP

 

Hap,

I should have been clearer, the writer was talking how SC has the advantage to the shooter looking for diversity and challenge without the need for perfection. He was talking about SC gaining over Skeet and Trap, not gaining by making SC easier.

Though there are arguments within the SC community about clubs being easy and some being tough. At least it appears that way from the magazine.

Shoot well.

John

 

Thanks John, for clearing that up for me, I couldn't totally understand why or how SCs would make that game easier as has skeet/trap. The fact that hundred straights are rare in SCs, even at the master level, doesn't seem to hurt the sports growth at all.

I've always said, how people perceive a shooting sport is mighty important for it's growth. Our game of trap used to be like that also, missing a target or two and continue trying to break the best score possible instead of knowing it's a miss and out game from that point on! That point is vitally important to newer members of our sport once they figure out how much time and money it will cost them to win, place or show in todays world of trap shooting.

We need to dispel this perfection mentality in trap shooting to give shooters the impression they don't have to be perfect to win, place or show as does the sporting clays game. I feel what's lacking in our organization is the gonads to write rules and enforce them for the betterment of our sport, not make it easier as we've done since 1969.

HAP

 

The problem is the ATA's inability to govern it's handicap and class systems. The GAH winner is an example of this, not a reason for a change.

Until they find a way to fill all the cracks people seem to keep falling through, increasing the minimum handicap yardage will not change anything.

If the handicap system was in working order ... do you really think a true 18 yard shooter would be a threat to anyone ??? It is not a place you can 'camp-out' and keep winning like the 27.

At some point people are going to have to quit penalizing honest people to punish dishonest ones.

 

The fiasco at Sparta with the AA 18 yarder was an ATA blunder. But it was more systemic of the ATA having a lack of leadership and ethics. And I say that from the top down. To prove that look at the lack of consequences for all involved in the target scandal.

I see no leadership at the top of the ATA to police itself and I hear of little at the delegate level. (my delegate not included).

The apathy has to stop. This is our sport.

 

To continue....

How many of you have contacted your delegate? I have contacted mine. Now we even have a site to air our views without being booted.

 

There are many shooters that deserve to shoot from the 18 yard line! It's up to us members to also police the mis-deeds done to our sport! If such aren't reported to your delegate, there's no other way of fixing a problem. If the delegate fails to act, replace him!

New delegates being introduced at the Grand are for the most part closed mouthed. I know of a couple that were told to keep their trap shut when they tried to speak.

Our current rule book is more than twice as thick as my old 1974 book? When the 74 book was written, our sport was the fastest growing single participant sport in the nation and the safest too! What the he!! happened? Only a study of our sports history will give us the answers to that question.

Changes came slowly to our growing sport in the late 70s and early 80s and our membership has been sliding downhill ever since. In my less than humble opinion, the biggest mistake was adopting a cheating practice of rule bending in angles and distance making the game easier. The excuse of making the average shooter shoot better scores was a fallacy then as it is today. No rule change will make winners out of losers. Doing away with the 18 yard line won't help matters a whit either. If anything it will further hurt the honest shooter belonging there! For that reason alone, I voted NO!

There's a lot of other ways of improving our sport but punishing the average shooter certainly isn't the answer your looking for. Forget about punishing the average shooter and concentrate of further handicapping those we deem to have mastered our max handicap yardage! Slow change for the sake of our great sport.

HAP

 

Perhaps a more interesting vote would be from those whose handicap yardage is the 18 yard line. As long as my handicap is different maybe I really do not have a dog in the fight. Larry

 

Larry, you do have a dog in this fight, it's the fairness to our sports average shooters we should all strive for. Remember, shooters can ask to shoot their handicaps from the 25? I don't agree wholeheartedly with that but it's the shooters choice. The average ATA singles shooter couldn't compete in handicap from the 16 yard line in major handicaps?

HAP

 

I feel that having as many yardages as there are to compete from gives added ways and places to sandbag from ... I personally do not condone cheating in any way and sincerely believe that certain things can be done to eliminate it as much as possible ... Temptation many times rules ones heart especially when they can stand to be an undeserved winner ... I have never shot closer than the 22 yardline unless we were just playing or shooting a slider etc ... Handicap can be figured out and be made to work accordingly though might be intimidateing at first to many shooters ... The shooters who have mastered the maximum yardage can be taken out of the equasion (sp) and the 27 yardline be retained ... Classification is the Key word and would work for everyone, not just some ... Start at any Handicap yardage and classify from there ... Personally, I think the 25, 26, and 27 yardlines would be appropriate but any up to the 22 yardline could be an established starting point, with classifications being used ... If there is no predetermined odds on favorite in a class it would give people some incentive to shoot the "Caps" ... The establised shooters could be 27 -AAA depending on averages (AAA-AA-A- BB- B- CC- C- DD-D etc) and so forth, all classes shoot for their own money ... Not sure if it would work but nothing else has to date so it has to be tested before we would know for sure ... The easy way out would be to increase the max to 30, but at what cost to the clubs and what about the clubs where they just do not have enough room to expand without major changes ..? Faster, wider targets could be incorporated with the classifications for an increased degree of dificulty ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

One shooter is able to sandbag by the rules while the other sandbags by design. Not much difference there unless the one who uses the existing rules to his advantage asks for a few more yards added to his own to help equalize the competition. Since I fail to see that guy having the desire to eat less well it'll never happen!

 

I guess the first thing that we have to do is define what a "true" 18 yarder is, or for that matter what a "true" 23 or 26 yarder is. To me a true 18 yarder, is someone who doesn't average 90 from 19 yards or in the case of the 23 or 26, whatever their previous yardage was, on 1000 targets. Unfortunately, "gut feeling," "someone said,"or "everyone knows," doesn't enter into the reduction process. Reductions are based on scores that are shot at registered events, and unless there is some hard proof that cheating is going on, and brought to the attention of the State Delegate, or Central Handicap committee, those scores are all that the ATA has to go on to grant reductions.

By your rational, the only shooters who should win handicap events are the "true" 27 yarders, and of course that just opens another can of worms.

No truer words were ever spoken!

 

A quick look at the world today demonstrates to me that a majority feel the only way to run the world (or the Trap game) is to impose restrictions on the honest because in truth honest folks are the ones trying to abide by whatever the system or rules might be. The dishonest rely on that liberal approach to continue their dishonest and often criminal life style. Larry

 

"By your rational, the only shooters who should win handicap events are the "true" 27 yarders" .... yes ....

If you look at one person's 'average' vs other shooter's averages, how much better is the shooter with a higher average ???? and especially a higher average from a longer yardage ....

If shooter A has a 92 average from the 22, and shooter B has a 94 average from the 27 .... it is safe to say shooter B is 2 targets better by average .... but in fact shooter B is many times better than shooter A.

If a shooter can not average 90 on 1000 from the shorter yardages .... he/she is no match for a person with a higher average on a longer yardage. A less than 'true' 27 yard shooter can only stay at their yardage with a narrow range of averages, if they take reductions. With a 93,94, or 95 average it would be hard to not have a 96 or two in there unless you broke scores very close to each other. That could move you back, and 90 or below moves you forward. A 91 or 92 average and your stuck at a no-win place. So if a person becomes stuck in this trap, they have a hard choice ..... quit or cheat.

If scores come down so a person with a 92 or so average can break a score of 94 or close and actually win, place, or show with that score .... people will become interested again. A person at mid-yardage with a 92 or so handicap average is not a bad shooter .... there just isn't a place for them now when the required scores to win are out of their ability range. And for many 'getting better' is not something practice or anything thing else will accomplish.

As Clint Eastwood says ..... "A man's got to know his limitations" ...... that is realism, not defeatism ......

 

There is an answer to every question and an AZZ for every seat ... What you have to do is find them and make the adjustments from there ... I do not know what the answers are but feel unless something is done or at least tried you will never know if it works or not ... If the targets being set in the 2 hole versus 3 hole increased participation and we are where we are today, the sport is in more trouble than realized and or anticipated ... Once you relax settings or rules you are in real trouble because people will react to what was the norm more so than just adjust to it if left alone ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Since the very beginnings of our sport, making the game tougher was accepted and it grew. That's not to say there wasn't grumbling then because there was a lot of that every time.

Today it's like taking candy and ice cream away from your plump kid! They'd scream we were being unfair and mean to them while the kids make excuses to have even more!

We got where we are by accepting changes whether good or bad as a whole. Reversing that must come about in the same fashion, a little here a little there till it's realized this really works best for our sport.

HAP

 

I wonder just how many that pay ATA dues and target fees would really quit if we went back to the targets we shot 30+ years ago.

AND DUES AND FEES IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT ISN'T IT?

Flyersarebest

 

On the subject "to remove or keep the 18-yard handicap" I was interested to see what our history had to say about it.

In the 1939 Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute (SAMMI) book, I found the following opinion which was reprinted in every annual edition up till at least 1955, the latest year I have in my library :

 

Thanks Kenny R.E.!!

Our EC and BOD knows what our average ATA shooters abilities are in their singles averages. I'm sure that knowledge played a role in their mandating the 18 yard line too. As your post points out, it's just a tad tougher than the 16 where most are already handicapped out of competition at a major handicap event.

(edited); for shooters that honestly belong there, not a sandbaggers dream yardage.

HAP

 

KRE post implies the 18 is hardly a tad tougher.

 

Ya know cheapstuff, once upon a time trap was shot from the 18? Isn't that almost like saying there should be as many perfect scores from there as the 16s? Not according to historical scores shot from there is it the same thing.

However, I will say once a shooter masters the singles game, he will shoot about the same scores back to the 20/21 yard line. Not the average ATA shooter though.

HAP

 

I like the phrase, "shooting at nearly 3 o'clock targets", and in truth it was possible on certain fields to have a legal 90 degree target. Based on the target field of 1934 from post 1 and 5.

Opened a magazine today, this is what I saw as introductory sentence to the Trap, Skeet and SC target games.

Trap - Trap is the oldest shotgun shooting sport in America.

Skeet - Skeet uses the same clay targets as trap.

Sporting Clays - Sporting clays is a challenging clay target game designed to simulate a variety of field-shooting situations.

Shoot well.

John

 

jhunts,

History shows us that sportsmen who enjoyed bird hunting are the ones who started trap shooting matches and events. They found out very early on that the trap shooting game was monotonous and there were many attempts by the trap shooting community to make the game more interesting with challenging targets.

I hold the view that it was trap shooters who actually started the Sporting Clays game as early as 1913, but written documents show that they were shooting target presentations found in Sporting Clays as early as May 1884. It was event No. 6 during the First International Clay Pigeon Tournament sponsored by the Ligowsky Clay Pigeon Company where five traps were stationed in front of screens at irregular points from the shooting station, the farthest trap being placedat a distance of 30 yards. The trap judge prepared 13 strips of folded paper, each containing a number from 3 to 15, and shooters drew one slip which was then examined by the judge who allowed only the puller to also see it. The shooter walked in a general right line away from the shooting post toward the traps after asking the puller “are you ready?” and receiving the reply of “yes.” When the shooter reached the number of steps matching the number on the slip he drew, the puller then pulled any two traps, one after the other.

It was shortly after the incorporation (1892) of the Interstate Manufacturer’s and Dealers’ Association, when this trap shooting governing body introduced the “novelty rule” into the sport. The desire of shooters for something more interesting and more spectacular over the traps, something replicating “field conditions” led to this innovation. This new method of trapshooting competition called for the use of eight “Expert” traps. Traps 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 were placed five yards apart in a straight line parallel with the firing line (or scores), 16 yards rise, the trapper boys, five in number, being protected by a long board fence which had, of course, to be at least twenty yards long as that was the extreme distance between Nos. 1 and 5 traps. The three other traps, 6, 7 and 8, were placed fifty yards out in the field and threw incomers, No. 6 being directly in front of tap and firing point No. 1, No. 7 in front of No. 3, and No. 8 in front of No. 5. Each of these three traps had a small protection screen between the shooters and the boy working the trap. All targets were thrown at known angles; Nos. 1 and No. 4 threw a right quartering target, Nos. 2 and 5 left quartering targets, while No. 3 threw a straightaway; these were all outgoing targets. Trap No. 6 threw a right quartering incomer, directly towards firing point No. 5; No. 7 trap threw a direct incomer right at No. 3 pet, while No. 8 trap threw a left quartering incomer towards No. 1 peg. While the angles were fixed (and “known” if you knew which trap was going to be pulled for you, which you didn’t) the conditions were “unknown traps,” for no trap could be sprung twice in succession.

The Baltimore (Maryland) Shooting Association opened their summer target season May 14, 1898 with a new system of novelty shooting. Three inside traps were placed in a straight line, 16 yards in front of the shooter; the left set to throw a left-quartering outgoer; the right trap a right-quartering outgoer; and the center, a straighaway. Three traps were placed out in the field were 30 yards apart and 60 yards from the shooter. These outside traps threw a right and left quartering incomer and a straight incomer.

A few American gun clubs started building towers for overhead shooting as early as 1903, Pinehurt (N.C.) Gun Club being the first known. The Buffalo Bill Gun Club in North Platte, Nebraska and the Calument Gun Club of Chicago were holding tower shoots by 1904.

When States began prohibiting the sport of live pigeon shooting, Sporting Life, a base ball and trap shooting magazine out of Philadelphia, Pa., provided an option in May 1904, to pigeon shooters who objected to trap shooting using clay targets as it was too machine-like, too monotonous and unlike field shooting. The magazine’s advice was to “arrange five traps in the positions formerly occupied by the live bird traps. Use no screens, and arrange the angles according to the old American Shooting Association expert rules. The traps are five yards apart and arranged to throw angles as follows: No. 1 to the right, No. 2 to the left, No. 3 straightaway, No. 4 to the right and No. 5 to the left. The targets should be thrown as low and swift as they can stand: not over three or four feet high, excepting perhaps, the No. 3, which might be a “towerer.” The rise should be 21 to 25 yards, far enough to make ten straight a score to be proud of.

In Edward C. Crossman’s article, “ FIELD WORK AT CLAY BIRDS” appearing in the September 1912 issue of OUTING MAGAZINE, he tells readers “How to Give the Trapshooting Game a New Flavor of Variety and Excitement.” Crossman believed that the curse of shoot management of both rifle and shotgun sports was their lack of imagination and initiative and absolute unwillingness to use the brains with which they were supposed to be provided by nature. He attempts to resist repeating the view expressed by many gunners that trapshooting is a boring sport by tactfully noting: “I merely desire to whisper that while it is lèse-majesté to say anything derogatory of the good, old, respectable sixteen-yard interstate rules game, yet I and others have got still more fun by playing that the clays were not targets to be broken in a fixed and more or less tiresome manner, but birds – ducks and wild geese and quail – to be shot in various unorthodox ways.” Most importantly he reports on a duck shooting course set up on a range of the Los Angeles Rifle and Revolver Club shooting grounds, blessed with steep hills. A group of shooters enjoyed surprise ducks in both overhead flight and curving incomers, never calling for a bird. A $7 trap and a barrel of “Blue Rock” targets provided hours of fun. Mr. Crossman also mentions the “quail” walk-up game. As stated this type shooting had been in practice at numerous gun clubs since 1883.

The earliest known Sporting Clays course was constructed in New York in 1913. The game . . . . "CLAY-BIRD GOLF."

I could go on and on about the different times trap shooters had the desire to make the game more fun and challenging such as the "Joker Trap" events during early Grand American Handicap tournaments and how 2nd ATA President George S. McCarty announced that he wanted a "Grouse Event" in the 1922 Grand American Handicap program.

Here's some Sporting Clays in 1913.

Enjoy