Younger People Reject Trapshooting-Simple-No CREDIT CARDS

The problem of younger people rejecting trapshooting may be the result of clubs failure to enter the real world and start accepting credit cards as payment. I'm not a stay at home person and when I visit the local bars and restaurants, which are often filled with people much younger than me, I see little cash getting rung up. I know for a fact my 40 yo son seldom carries cash and charges most everything. Hasn't anyone ever heard of the cashless society? It's coming!

 

I know my Grandsons and Granddaughter use their cards for everything and I use my card for a lot of purchases..

The thing is, they are not CREDIT cards but debit cards that act the same as cash.

If a club was to take a CREDIT card do they have to charge a few percent more to cover the cost to them?

Dawg, I assume from some of your other posts that you have a store? If someone uses a credit card to purchase something (gun) from you do you get charged a fee from the card company?

I thought that is why some companies have a "add 3% for CC purchases" on their websites.

Just askin….

 

You need cash in the bank to use a debit card. With a credit card you can buy junk you don't need, with money you don't have and make payments on it the rest of your life.

 

Yep, you are correct on your definition of a debit card. That is why I wrote this,

The thing is, they are not CREDIT cards but debit cards that act the same as cash.

Does the gun club have to pay a fee on any credit card purchases?

 

The club has to pay a fee on CC use, just like all businesses that accept CC's--Robinson Ranch accepts CC's they charge a % more if you use it

 

Ok I’ll bite...

Is the implication that the kid can go to a sporting clays course and use the debit card? But not for trap?

 

Regardless of Credit vs. Debit - a cashless society is where we are headed. A club or range that does not accept CC or Debit, IMO, loses a lot of potential business or even potential new business via ostracizing a new generation of non cash carrying, social media hungry, patrons. The inability or lack of interest in the digitalization of transactions is more costly than the fees they may incur - fees that can easily be transferred to the receiver of the convenience.

Just my opinion and an opinion from an almost purely cash free individual.

 

Our club is all cash. On a Thursday night, we can have around 23 to 25 squads, from 6:00 to 9:00. We run a winter league, and a doubles league. We open the traps for beginners on an off night. We are a 2 trap club. Our turnout has increased over the last couple of years mostly because these shooters are having fun. The ones that drove shooters away were all members of the bitch, piss and moan club. One went to another club, and that club lost most of it's volunteers because of the BS. If you treat people right, they will return.

 

Yup, that is correct. Our local Sporting Clays course (Lehigh Valley Sporting Clays) accepts CC's and is loaded with younger shooters.

 

I'll betcha most members are on the far side of 60 yo and carry cash. Not so with the younger crowd. Clubs that accept cash only are still existing in the dark ages.

 

Stop at the club, shoot two rounds of trap for around $10 and pay an additional .30 CC fee. Do you really think the youngsters care about .30? Since I went CC's my online sales have certainly increased and CC users make up a large % of my sales.

 

I agree with the "ole dog" on use of credit cards in trap shooting events. Youth will buy a coffee or a coke with the CARD

 

3% wouldn't make a difference to the kids in my area --We offer a 50% discount to all shooters under 18 years old and still can't get the numbers.

 

West Chester in PA allows CC and on a normal Tue or Sun, they'll run 100+ rounds. They're the only one in the area doing it, and yes they Upcharge for service, but since most CC companies offer 2+% cashback, the upcharge is almost completely offset.

 

Our trap club is cash or personal checks only. ...That is posted on our website, which is how most new people find us.

I only recall seeing 2 people show up with credit/debit cards and no cash. ...They were directed to a nearby ATM and they returned with cash to shoot.

Returning shooters always bring cash.

 

It's not the CC fee, it's the convenience of being able to use the card and not bring cash. And I'm guessing Dawg is talking about the 20 something to 40 ish crowd. If they are young enough to shoot for 50% off Mom and Dad are probably still paying.
From a business standpoint, CC fee's are just another cost of business no different than utilities, phone etc. and should be factored into your product prices.

 

I don't think the "kids" care one bit. If they are that young the parents are paying anyway. I think it would be a PITA for the clubs book keeper and not increase the revenue enough to warrant it.

Our club used to have a VERY good "off hours" revenue stream before this virus. So how do you handle these guys when they come back? There would be 10-12 guys there Monday through Friday shooting 100 each at least. The money went into a large envelope with the score sheets and is dropped through a drop box in the block wall next to the vault door.

Cash only for these guys but the Thursday night, open to the public shoot you can use a debit card? It might work at your club but not mine.

Of course your online sales have increased due to CC use. A lot easier than someone driving to pick the item up. If you want to compete with all the other people selling the same product you are you HAVE to accept CC's.

 

It often also amazes me how many younger people come in for a pickup of an online firearm purchase and ask if I'll accept a CC for payment of the $25 transfer fee. I recently asked the president of our local gun club why they refuse to accept CC's for payment of bar bills. His answer "we don't want to leave a paper trail". All that and they're complaining how few younger people want to join. And you wonder why so many clubs are suffering.

 

Absolutely
.

 

And you wonder why many fail to return?

 

All of our shooters carry cash. That's what they expect. Over the last 3 years we have had an influx of new and younger shooters. The younger shooters are the ones that help, load traps, score, set up and tear down

 

Dawg,
You assume many don't want to return. There is no way anyone can tell how many didn't. Not without a graph anyway.

 

Has West Chester gotten their management problems corrected? Credit cards are not helping if their are other problems.

 

We don't have "many fail to return" people. I can only speak for my club. Over 1,750 members, and yes I know only a small number are regular trap, skeet, or 5 stand shooters, and we have a closed membership with a waiting list.

$200 the first year and $100 yearly. We just spent $220,000.00 for a piece of property adjoining ours. Pretty nice club house too. You can see a small part of it in the picture.

Cash only has worked out pretty well and we are FAR from just existing

BTW, that’s not me and I’m not Nora

 

They're moving in the right direction, and as with any club you'll have those agree to disagree moments. But club always looks good, just need them to set the targets a little better is my only complaint.

 

That's good. They were having trouble with the ATA cards not scanning right. Funny about this thread. Most old timers, i'm 65, are the ones that run these trap clubs, and they are the ones who have trouble with these"new fangled' credit card machines.

 

His answer "we don't want to leave a paper trail".

That is simple moronic. Prolly 99.999% of people on public gun forums or gun club members or firearm owners or "sporting goods" purchasers and anyone who has EVER been in the NRA or any other shooting org is on the list of any group that GAF about guns and the people that have them

Get real !! The year is 2020 not 1901

 

Interestingly, Lehigh Valley Sporting Clays has a standing order for a trailer load of targets every TWO weeks-of course not all are standards-some are midis, battues and rabbits. That said, I doubt if all those shooters are over 65 yo.
Having just returned from my dealer today we had the same interesting discussion. Earlier this week he had sales of $23,000 one day and $19,000 were by credit card. He sells an awful lot of handguns to younger shooters. Don't be surprised that the PSSA will soon be accepting CC's!

 

Kids and Trapshooting? There are families living around and near me in a nice development with kids. But, I never see them riding bikes, playing, or just walking down the street. I asked the two boys across the street what their hobbies were a while back. Response, video games, and mostly VR (virtual reality games) and music. One is a senior and the other has since joined the Army now. They played no sports since they moved in (10 years+), but they went to band camp every summer (6 weeks). I asked them about shooting and hunting once, as they know I shoot as do their parnets. No way, Mom wouldn't allow it. This seems to be typical among kids today, entertainment is inside the home with a computer rather than outside. ERGO: The incredible increase in obesity among kids. Just saying, the new millennial generation as a whole, has very different values then previous generations.

 

How true, most kids will never have the experiences we had growing up and video games are extremely popular. That said, firearm ownership is at an all time high. Notice gun sales went through the roof during this epidemic and many are totally unavailable (as in sold out). Krieghoff sells out of Sporting Clays every year and that includes some very expensive hardware. Plenty of these so called kids earn more money than we ever dreamed of making and often prefer the latest and greatest. Just look around at some trapshoots and see how many Krieghoffs, Ljutics, Guerinis, Perazzis and others they're often carrying. FYI most of us consider anyone under 50yo a kid!!

 

I shot sporting clays at Lehigh. A lot more fun than trap. No "find 'em and grind 'em" And no one complaining about the target presentation. About kids, The Hill School in Pottstown Pa. an exclusive boarding school, has a clay target team. They shoot at Lehigh, and after they looked at several trap clubs in the area, chose to remain at Lehigh. O the flip side, there are several youth leages in this area, Main Line Trap, and a group from Lower Providence are 2 that come to mind.

 

I like the nostalgia of cash at our smaller local clubs but if going to a registered shoot, a CC option would be nice. BTW, I'm in not in the 20-40 age group.

 

Strange thread. We have ATM machines in our town. They work for kids too.

 

Nearly every town has an ATM machine. Does everyone prefer to use it or would they rather just swipe a card. Don't go out much I see.

 

Bama, you need to talk Mom into trying it and the kids might follow.

 

Lasts a lost cause.

 

The problem with having ATM's all over the place is it makes a prime target for crooks to get your information or even your cards ... There were 4 ATM's placed in a Mini shopping center close to where I live, they looked legit according to the Police but there were in fact not placed by any money institution or even legit vendor so when you put your card or cards in that was the last you would see of them, the next morning the ATM's were gone and so were your cards ... The people called the number on the machines to report that the machine ate their cards and of course the number was not in service ... The world is not what we knew it to be when most of us were kids, be careful out there ... Happy Easter ...

PS My bank notified me that some one hit my checking account for $9,000 , but it was covered and they replaced it ... Then had to change all of the pass words, etc and basically start a new account ... They tried to trace the card that made the transaction to no avail ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Exactly

I took my stepson, son in law, and two Grandsons to the club Thanksgiving turkey shoot and after I told them,

Here's the deal. I'll buy lunch for everyone, whatever you want.

You two younger ones, I'll pay for all the shooting you want, the individual lucky target, the block paper where you can buy blocks and one person gets to shoot at it, even the ten bird against the really good guys if you want.

BUT, if you want to buy fifty fifty tickets, a chance on the wheel, a cold hand of 5 card, or anything else the club comes up with that is not shooting, you are on your own so BRING CASH.

You dads? You're on your own as far as anything you want to do except like I said ,I'll buy the food.

Now my stepson and son in law are pretty bright guys and they must have raised their sons to be pretty bright too because

THEY ALL SHOWED UP WITH CASH THAT THEY GOT OUT OF THE ATM MACHINES BEFORE THEY ARRIVED AT THE CLUB.

Darn grandsons had about $30 in CASH each which they converted into $1's at the club.

Maybe some people have relatives that aren't that bright.

Just sayin....

 

Stop at bank ATM machine, withdraw $10 to shoot 50 targets and pay a $3 charge for use of machine. Real smart?

 

Your own bank DOESN'T CHARGE FOR WITHDRAWING MONEY!!!!!!

From the sounds of it you don't have a debit card. If you do and your bank charges you for withdrawing your own money at your bank then maybe that isn't too smart?

If you want to argue with me dawg, I'm just sitting at home so no problem.

 

So you're saying your local bank has an ATM in every town-NOT!

 

Never said that. What I said was, "Your own bank DOESN'T CHARGE FOR WITHDRAWING MONEY!!!!!!

I don't know about you but if I'm going to a shoot I take money with me BEFORE I LEAVE. That means I go to my bank the day before a shoot and withdraw whatever amount I choose, my daily limit is $1000.00. If for some reason I need more cash I have no problem paying the $3-$5 dollars to get another $1000.00 out.

Didn't you have cash with you when you were sitting in that hotel room in FL. when they cancelled the state shoot? Took it with you before you left home right?

I usually post my opinions with a degree of humility and sometimes a question mark to allow other people to state their OPINIONS. Since the majority of your post have the " Look I know better" quality to them I'll address yours in the same manner.

Your idea that more younger people will go to gun clubs and shoot if they can use their plastic is just plain silly. How does that old saying go? That dog won't hunt. I've spent some hours in the window and hundreds of hours helping run our registered shoots. When we had them that is.So many hours for so many YEARS at the club that my wife finally said ENOUGH already.

Besides the fact that it would be a PITA for the people at the window. Think not?

Hi there sir, welcome to _____________Sportsmens. How can I help you?

Well, my buddy asked me to come shooting with him tonight and I thought I might give it a try.

Great, the price for shooting a round of Trap here is five dollars for non member guests.

OK, I would like to sign up for a round. Very well, that will be five dollars.

Can I use my debit card?

Surely, no problem. Do you need shells? I don't think so, my friend said he has some reloads.

Alright sir, please insert your card. Great, swipe or chip? Chip please. There you are sir, your receipt.

Thank you very much, by the way, you have a very nice club here.

Thank you sir, we try. Hope you enjoy yourself, break em all as we say.

Now, this younger guy goes out and breaks 15 so he is pretty happy.

Hello again, I would like to shoot another round please. Great, I see you broke a fifteen your first time out. Not too shabby.

I hope to do better this next round. Me too sir. Would you like to use your card again? Yes please. Fine, please insert your card. Thank you, here's your receipt.

The guy breaks 17 and can't wait to shoot again.

After his 3rd round he goes back in and uses his card again for the 4th. After he gets back to his pals truck he finds out his pal didn't bring enough reloads for both of them so, YEP, back to the office to buy a box of shells, with the plastic.

Right, fun night for the guy at the window. And this is just ONE shooter using plastic. Be really great if there were 10 or 12 "younger" shooters there.

Run a tab? Yeah right, that would make things easier. NOT

Your OPINION dawg. NOT a "simple" solution as you stated in your title.

It works great for SC because, as another member stated, it is a fixed price for 100 targets.​

 

Let's see, I'm headed to the PA State shoot. I kinda figured I might need around $2,500 in cash to survive the week. Well, that didn't work out so well as our beer and restaurant bills exceeded my savings-that darn Bubba drank most of the beer. Since I have a choice between eating, drinking, entering a few more events and playing a few more options guess what is more likely to suffer? Believe me it happens quite often. Besides, not everyone has an ample cash supply on hand to play this game.

Not only that, if you've been around clubs more than a few years, what's more likely to disappear-cash or credit card receipts?

 

I HAVE been around clubs for more than a few years. Been around gambling at pigeon shoots and casinos for almost as long. If someone is using their "savings" to shoot or gamble maybe they shouldn't be going? Don't spend what you can't afford to lose.

If I thought I might need $2500 I would take $3500. I was taught a long time ago to keep track of my money. If I have to use my debit card the first thing I do when I get near my checkbook is to deduct that amount from my balance. I usually have it with me so that transaction is recorded almost immediately. Haven't been surprised by a deduction in my checkbook when I balanced in over 45 years.

Sounds like you might need a bookkeeper.

 

Yup, and every average 25-45 yo trapshooter just always is able to both accumulate and carry $3,500 to a major trapshoot. What tree are you living in? I see you've only been around but never managed any active clubs. If you did you'd know how fast cash always seems to disappear.

FYI, you say you've been around the live bird circuit but didn't know the late Tom Hefele. Well, Tom shot over 50,000 live birds and is the oldest person to have won the PA state shoot at Pikeville. His girfriend at the time, Diane Arner, was also the European live bird champion one year. Are you sure who you are?

 

And a much younger 'dawg on the circuit back around 1990-broke 23/25 that easy bird day. Very popular live bird place in those days and I'm sure you know exactly where that was.

 

I don't live in a tree and I'm sure about everything I post ollie. You don't want to take a swipe at me by trying to cast doubt on what I post. Your example was YOU going to the PA state shoot not some "young shooter".

You started this post by stating that clubs would get more young shooters if they offered the option of using CREDIT cards. You think it would be better if people went into debt to shoot? That's just plain nuts.

I don't remember meeting Mr. Hefele or Miss Arner. I might have but I can't say I 'know" them. I never met you at any pigeon shoots I attended either. When the last shooter killed the lone 20 and six of us shot off with 19's at Pikeville I didn't see you standing there. I would have remembered. When I killed the 25 at Valley View I don't remember meeting or seeing you. That doesn't mean I didn't kill 25. They don't give those pins out because you "know" someone. I did meet a guy, Charlie Miller, maybe? I think he was pretty good at one time. Can't say I know him.

In fact, I never heard of you when I was shooting registered targets either. That doesn't mean I didn't shoot them.
When I was shooting off in front of the grandstands at Vandalia I didn't know who you were but that doesn't mean I wasn't there.

You see ollie, you saying that because I don't "know" Mr. Hefele or Miss Arner means my posts are suspect is about as nuts as you saying clubs should take CREDIT cards because it will increase Trap shooting. NOTHING will increase registered Trap shooting. It is in a death spiral and a piece of plastic isn't going to save it.

"I see you've only been around but never managed any active clubs. If you did you'd know how fast cash always seems to disappear.'

Yeah, I've been around. Years ago I spent more time at the club than 99.5% of the members. I was on the board of my club multiple times over the last 43 years but never accepted the offer to be President when they asked. I DID handle the money for five years every Friday running our very lucrative 5 stand operation. The set up cost us over $17,000.00 and we returned that to the account in two years. I handled a few bucks during that time period. Balanced to the penny.

Now I don't know about the club or clubs YOU belong to but ours never had any money "disappear"

I also helped at the 6-7 registered shoots we held each year. We did have a big 3 day affair that was really well attended.
Ray Lee used to come shoot. See, I know him and he might even remember me. Does that mean I really was there?

Tag, your it.

 

Nope, never shot there. You have any pictures of other places you shot or was that one and Pikeville the only two?
BTW, it's kill, not broke. Too bad you missed two. T & F would have put your name in the magazine and you would have one of those 25 straight pins like you see on the left.

 

Oh, never shot Powderbourne I see. If you did you'd surely recognize that pic. Yeah, I shot there, Pikeville, Strausstown, North End, Hegins and even ran a few shoots at my home club Lappawinzo. Gee, I even won AA Preliminary Singles at the Southern Grand just a few years ago.

That said, if you no longer shoot Trap or Pigeons but pretend to know what's going on in either sport then you're simply trolling. FYI, Vandalia was 13 years ago, I know, I was there.

I've been searching for my very own 25 straight Flyers pin on ebay as we speak. As soon as I find one I'll post it for all to see while claiming it's mine. Not knowing the "legend" Tom Hefele former PA State Champion and the owner of over 50,000 live birds or the former lady World Champion Diane Arner is like calling yourself a trapshooter and not knowing Harlan Campbell.

 

Even if you no longer shoot Flyers I'm sure you've kept up your PA Flyers Association membership and always add a few $$ to their legal funds. At least that shows you still care even though you no longer participate.

 

80% of the shooters at my club wouldn’t care or know who Harlan Camel is. Unless you read a forum how would you know?

 

That's true, but it's unlikely any of them would stand a chance of ever beating him either.

 

Harlan is human, I saw him miss once ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Actually you don’t know anything about the folks at my club. Knowing that guys last name doesn’t make either party better or worse. Reputation doesn’t break targets or kill birds. And those guys that left the ATA don’t pay their dues. And I couldn’t tell you who won the HOA at Sparta last year. BIG DON probably still doesn’t know Longshot’s last name. And I couldn’t tell you who the OSTA President is.

I can say it looks like you lost the argument and thought you had a better chance challenge his creds.

 

"Oh, never shot Powderbourne I see. If you did you'd surely recognize that pic."

I told you I never shot there.

"Yeah, I shot there, Pikeville, Strausstown, North End, Hegins and even ran a few shoots at my home club Lappawinzo."

Well, I guess shooting at four other places COULD be interpreted as "shooting the circuit"

"Gee, I even won AA Preliminary Singles at the Southern Grand just a few years ago."

That's great, congratulations, 2 hole targets there?

"That said, if you no longer shoot Trap or Pigeons but pretend to know what's going on in either sport then you're simply trolling. FYI, Vandalia was 13 years ago, I know, I was there."

I still shoot "Trap", just not registered targets. The same as a lot of people on this site that no longer shoot registered targets. I'm sure you went to Vandalia but you better go back and check your dates.
I said you weren't standing next to me in front of the grand stands when I was in a shoot off? Prelim Thursday, do I have to show you the picture from T & F to prove that too?
I didn't "KNOW" any of the top shooters back then but that doesn't mean I didn't shoot well enough to get there. A little free tip for you ollie. Just because you can say you "know" someone doesn't mean you are a good shooter. Kinda like getting in a picture with some well known shooters but not actually "knowing" them.

The attendance at the pigeon shoots here in PA stopped when the places holding them stopped due to pressure or the $10.00 per bird priced them out. When you have to pay that much and there are only 20-30 shooters, that is what happened at Wing Pointe, you can't win enough to warrant the cost. It was different when the birds were $5.00-$6.50. You would have 100+ shooters and it was worth it. Didn't you post once or twice that you quit when it went to $5.00?
That might have been on the site you were kicked off of?

I've been searching for my very own 25 straight Flyers pin on ebay as we speak. As soon as I find one I'll post it for all to see while claiming it's mine.

C'mon ollie, you know that's not true. You didn't go on ebay and try to find that pin. You know the only way to get one is to kill them. That sounds like trolling. Now, someone could interpret those last five words in your post as meaning you think I didn't earn it and it and can't prove I did. That sounds a lot like the asshat from somewhere else that implied the same thing.

I'll give you the same opportunity I gave him. You might know I like to gamble so how much would you like to wager I didn't kill 25 straight pigeons and I didn't receive that pin from the people at T & F? For reference and to help you out a little is was 10 years after you ALMOST killed 25 at one of the four places you shot.


"Not knowing the "legend" Tom Hefele former PA State Champion and the owner of over 50,000 live birds or the former lady World Champion Diane Arner is like calling yourself a trapshooter and not knowing Harlan Campbell"

HUH? Did you forget to type in a word or two? Knowing OF or knowing as in personally "knowing" someone?
I think you are doing this trying to confuse me right? You sound like Clinton when he started with that
"what is the definition of is" crap. I know WHO Harlen Campbell is. I think he might even have been at one of the pigeon shoots at Valley View when he was in the area giving Trap lessons. Of course just because I saw him doesn't mean I "know" him.

Now, after reading all this don't just act like you didn't read the part about the wager that I didn't earn my pin.
You wager as much as you like. I'll try to scrounge up enough money to cover whatever you want to bet.

One thing though. I will not accept the bet if you use the "Winston" plan of payment. I expect to be paid.

PS: To combine the other post you put up about still paying my dues for the PA flyers? Nope, haven't paid in years. I check the website once in a while but since the shoots stopped I haven't paid any dues. Don't tell me, you still pay yours and that veiled idea swipe was supposed to make me look bad because I don't?
Sounds like trolling ollie!

You know, the more I read some of your post the more I understand why you were kicked off that other place and the reason you aren't standing WITH those guys in the "meeting of the minds" picture.

Don't forget the wager!!!!


​

 

Please tell all of us where you happen to be shooting those 3-hole targets!. I've been shooting since 1963 and the last club in Eastern PA that shot 3-hole targets was the South End Gun Club in Reading PA and that was at least 20 years ago.

You're right, I quit shooting the pidg when they went to $5 as did most everyone else. I just am not the high roller you profess to be and not financially able to blow $500 every weekend.

Preliminary Thursday at the Vandalia Grand was a Handicap event. I wouldn't go about bragging about my performance from the 21 yd. line. Heck, the last time I saw the 21 yd. line was in 1973.

Unfortunately Tom Hefele passed away last year but at least I attended his funeral. I didn't see you there but Diane, whom I shoot with nearly every weekend in the Winter was.

No, I only shot with Harlan on my squad a few years ago in FL He trounced me 100-my 99. I suppose you could say I know the following bird shooters-Nole, Luchetti (deceased),Perugini, Korsak, the Greenbergs -just to name a few. Since you pretend to know much about pigeon shooting please tell all of us where Frank Little shot many birds here in Eastern PA!

Yup, my dues are paid to the PA Flyer Association. I respect what they're trying to keep alive no thanks to you.

 

Me thinks this quarantine thing is getting to a lot of people, some more than others ... Can't we all just get along ..? (Rodney King) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It sounds like a wager. Enough of the I know someone you don’t don’t know crap. Last I heard that was 7th grade at the girls lunch table. I can find someone to hold that money.

 

The “dawg” has a habit of telling everyone who he “knows”. As if that matters.

I’m waiting on the “dawg” as he likes to refer to himself in the third person to post an amount he wants to bet.

 

Frank Little was a cheater!!! I said before I know the guy that broke into his garage and stole some of the those Green Petes. Those were given out to many in our trap league for testing. I don’t know where he always shot. But if he was using green shells he was cheating. I know where he shot in N E Ohio using those shells. Those that don’t know aren’t trapshooters.

 

Covid symptoms. High fever to point of hallucinations and irritability.

PMS slight fever and irritable.

Covid lockdown symptoms? Note liquor stores closed in PA.

Even odds on the reason for the arguments. Not gonna bet a penny on this!!

 

Those Green Shells were probably the worst patterning shells I ever shot. They couldn't possibly be any hotter than Remington Nitros or Winchester Super Handicaps. Are you telling us Amerigo had a special relationship with Remington and Frank?

 

Well, you at least got one thing correct. Prelim Thursday was a cap event.
Why do you think I was on the 21? Just a guess? You guess a lot ollie. Sometimes guessing bites you in the ass.

I would have to go back and try to find my old cards but I don’t think I was ever on the 21.

You see ollie, that’s your main problem. You think everything you post is fact when I’m reality most of it is just your opinion, or hope.
As in you hope you didn’t step in it when you implied I didn’t earn that pin.

What’s the bet? “dawg”

 

I am saying the only man you swoon over more than ❤️ Harlan was a cheater. I know the guy that broke into his garage and stole a chunk of his shells. They were distributed to our league members for testing. There wasn’t any factory load available like that. I don’t give a rats ass if I hurt your feelings about the guy. He cheated and others were on the same “pallet program.”

Who would care where the cheater shot in PA?

 

High rollers like you pretend to be must have spent

You seem to be a bit confused. Was the guy who broke into Frank's garage a crook or was Frank? I think the description fit the former quite well. That said, what made Frank's shells so much better than others. They must have possessed some magical powers. Good old Frank didn't need even be more than close to those targets or did he put manners onto more than a few Ohio shooters?

 

Looks like you are the confused one ollie

“High rollers like you pretend to be must have spent”

What is that supposed to mean? You just had an "OH Crap" moment when you realized you opened your mouth when you should have kept it closed and can't finish a sentence?

Quit dodging the question I put to you. You implied, as if you knew, I didn’t earn that pin. You want to take a swipe at me? That’s OK
I called you on it and all of a sudden you have selective amnesia?
For someone that remembers stuff from years ago you sure have a problem with something only a couple of hours old.
Either post you were wrong about me earning that pin or put your money where your mouth is.
Like you claimed in the original title
SIMPLE

 

I never called Frank a crook. Get help with the comprehension. I called Frank a cheat. You can continue humping his imaginary leg. I didn’t say Frank loaded the shells. They came from the factory that way. It was the hot pallet program. Reread what I wrote. Frank wasn’t the only person. But he was a cheat.

About that bet?????

 

but your "friend" was a crook and your fellow club members just as guilty( it's called receiving stolen goods)! Do you go to jail for theft or beating up on the competition?

 

You can Bet you don’t go to jail after this long. But a cheat is a cheat. I don’t give a rats ass if the target is clay or a Flyer.

 

No problem at all. The day I shot at Powderbourn (like in that photo) was in July or August maybe. They call 'em Summer birds, not many feathers and tended to be poor flyers. 23/25 wasn't much of a challenge. Some days they fly like chickens while others like starlings. Was your special day a chickens day?

BTW, I called you out on plenty and you haven't proved to know little if anything-Not even the PA "legend" Tom Hefele while you're still shooting 3-hole targets somewhere. FYI, there are no 3 holes in a plate in either PAT or Superstar traps. Those went out decades ago.

 

Still dodging the bet I see.

"Was your special day a chickens day?"

So NOW you acknowledge that I DID kill a 25 straight? Is that how you back peddle on your stupid post that I bought it on ebay? That is how you back out of making a wager on it? Geeeez, you sound just like H1N1.

As a matter of fact they birds were pretty good that day. A few of the names you dropped in your " I know all these guys" post were there and they didn't kill them all. If it was a "chicken" day why didn't anyone else kill 25? I told you before ollie, just because you know who someone is doesn't make you as good as they are. Nice thinking that it does but alas, it doesn't. People that talk like that usually are the ones just sitting down and listening while the people they claim to "know" are standing and carrying on a conversation.

I'm not going to name names, that's your gig and as Jim said childish, but suffice to say that some of the better shooters were there. For someone that QUIT when the birds went to $5.00 you sure TALK like a you were pretty good.

BTW, if the day you shot was so easy and 23 wasn't much of a challenge why didn't you run them?

Hell,I killed 23 at Strausstown and that was in the middle of January. Second place but I killed the last 9 so the payday was OK.

A 19 at the State at Pikeville in February wasn't too shabby. A bunch of those guys you name dropped were there, Mike P. was the last shooter with his D or F grade 1100 and ran them. I remember us helping him look for the bolt handle when it flew out of the bolt. Those of us that killed 19 had to shoot 10 birds for second. I missed the third one out for a nine and was done. Still killed the first ten in the race and part of second place so it wasn't a total loss.

And the bottom line ollie? The question that cuts through all your "I know this guy and I shot on a squad with that guy" BS is.
If you "knew" all these guys? WHY WEREN'T YOU ANY GOOD AT IT?


"BTW, I called you out on plenty and you haven't proved to know little if anything-Not even the PA "legend" Tom Hefele while you're still shooting 3-hole targets somewhere. FYI, there are no 3 holes in a plate in either PAT or Superstar traps. Those went out decades ago."

HUH? You keep harping on the fact that I didn't know Mr. Hefele. WTH is that all about? I told you I didn't know him.
I never heard of you until your posts on the "all ata" site but that doesn't mean I didn't shoot. Well, truthfully I HAVE heard your name mentioned by one of the PA All State team vets but you wouldn't like what they had to say.

You proudly posted that you had won a prelim SINGLES event a FEW years ago and I asked if they were 2 hole targets.
Where, in ANY OF MY POSTS did I say I was STILL shooting 3 hole targets? The year I got my picture in the Grand edition of
T & F we were supposed to be shooting 3 hole targets. They looked like straight aways from 1 and 5 to me. There were 3,250 shooters and only one 98 so I would think they were 3 hole. From some of your other posts you probably know better right?

Now, are you going to make that bet that I didn't kill 25 pigeons or stick with that lame attempt to back peddle?

 

Looks like some of us haven't been taking our meds lately.

 

Gee, I remember breaking a 98 in Handicap at the old South End Gun Club in Reading decades ago-those were definitely 3-hole targets. Unfortunately, some hotshot ran the hundred and took me down. I suppose those 3-holers were meaningless that day. Wow, I remember killing a 19 at Pikeville and missing the last bird. In the big scheme of things it doesn't mean much anymore.

Since you claim to have shot some sort of circuit I suppose you must have cleaned house at Melloys too. Lots of high rollers in those calcuttas and oh those card games.

At least in your mind it's better to be a has been than a never was been. Please send your $30 to the Flyers Association to help preserve the game you claim is so much better than all else. Since you no longer play the game at least support it!

 

"preserve the game you claim is so much better than all else"

Well, well, well, there it is, FINALLY. So THAT'S the reason you take a swipe at me now and then. You don't like it that I use the sign on name stating that Flyers ARE the best.

Why you petty little man. I feel sorry for you. Living in a "I know people" world and wishing you had enough talent to stand out. How does it work? In ollie's world if you hang around good shooters people will think you are good too? Jesus, just because you never won anything that amounted to much you don't have to be so bitter and try to belittle people that have done more in a shorter time than you. Tough standing around at those pigeon shoots you attended, UNTIL THEY RAISED THE PRICE TO $5.00, and watching guys better than you huh?

As far as Flyers being the toughest game in shotgun shooting? EVERYONE knows that. Why don't you ask some of those people you "know", they will tell you.

What I DON'T know is which is worse. The fantasy land you live in or that case of selective amnesia. In ollie world you read a post, pick out little things you think you can respond to and ignore the rest right? Newsflash ollie, you're not that smart.

Here try this. It will be good practice for you.

Dear Flyersarebest,
I apologize for trying to imply that you bought your 25 straight Flyers pin on ebay. I know pigeon shooting is the toughest of all the shotgun disciplines but since this is a Trap shooting site I took umbridge with you using that sign on name. I usually had some smart ass remark directed toward you for that reason. It just rubs me the wrong way that people don't agree with my ideas on how to make "registered" Trap shooting better.

For instance, I posted that credit cards would help. You pointed out that those things called debit cards were the same as cash and them some of those other guys pointed out that the problem with younger shooters not shooting Trap had nothing to do with plastic cards and I kinda went off the deep end.

If everyone would just listen to me I could solve all the ata's problems. Damn, there I go again.

Respectfully,
The "dawg"

"cleaned house at Melloys too"

It's Malloy as in John Malloy of Granville County, NC not Melloy. Gee, you act as if you know him and you can't spell his name correctly?
I never did get to shoot there. I know John L. did quite well there one year and took home half of the two day Calcutta. He was shooting at Valley View the day I killed 25. I think he had 24

As far as paying my dues to the Flyers? I would have paid them with the money you lost on our bet but since you don't have the balls to bet, or realized you stepped in it and screwed up, I guess the association won't be getting my dues.

 

Did you ever shoot South End when they had their live bird shoots?

 

Smitty, You are a very crude person. I shot many targets with Frank and he did not have to cheat. Any thief that would say he did is a perfect ass hole, and any one that shot those pilfered shells was no better. A thief is the lowest scum bag in the world. Roger C.

 

Roger. I don’t give a rats ass if you missed what I said but for others that missed it....I never said Frank needed to cheat. But he did. You are upset a friend of mine stole the hot shells given to him by Remington. Frank and others took advantage of thousands.

That thief proved what many had suspected. They were cheating. If you were on the “hot pallet program” you got the hot shells. Now how many lost money to those cheats? Who didn’t make the HOF team because they did not have those shells?

Was Frank honest enough to tell you he had a few pallets of the “hot Petes”? If he didn’t tell you when he shot against you then he didn’t have that much integrity.

Ask yourself this Roger? Why is it those cheats didn’t get their usual perfect scores when they got to the the grand? Hah. That’s right. They had to buy their shells at the shell house. Just like us regulars.

I know of one All American that didn’t take the shells and did great anyway. Frank took the Hot Greenies. It is his legacy now.

 

Nope, that was before my time. I still remember when the boxes were out there.

 

Gee flyers, most of what you refer to happened nearly 35 years ago. The world has changed while some prefer to live in the past. Although everyone knows the ATA screwed the pooch by moving to IL the rest of us are not interested in seeing the demise of a game we still love. I haven't shot much ATA for years but my wife (4-time PA State champion) and young son sure make up the difference. I see you have sons and I'm sure you made every effort to provide them the finest equipment and drag them around the country attending trapshoots-or not. That said, you might realize that most younger people no longer carry cash and I'll bet your SS check and pension is direct deposit. That's why credit cards are so convenient.

Now if you change your handle to Flyerswerebest you might get more of my respect since you no longer participate or support the organization. Meanwhile, Sporting Clays, with their growth in attendance might certainly qualify more as "best".

Meanwhile, please tell all of us where you're shooting all those 3-hole targets over Winchester hand set traps in PA. Then tell all of us how you almost never miss a 2-holer.

 

I shoot there in the Berks League. I think the boxes are still there. They stopped shooting birds in 1973

 

To get back to the topic of Credit Cards I've been in the hunting preserve business for 25 years and don't take credit cards. I accept cash, checks, gold, silver, guns and ammo and others things in trade for hunts. I took Credit Cards for about the first 10 years but it got to be such a pain in the ass that I just said to hell with it. In the 25 years I've seen hunters and club members come and go and I can say that NOT taking Credit Cards hasn't hurt my business as I am as busy as I want to be.

Credit Cards would be OK if a club wants to do it for convenience but isn't a strategy that will save registered trap shooting. The targets are too easy, the rules too complex, and the scores to high to attract any young MEN that like to compete and if you are counting on women and kids to make or break the ATA your just screwing the pooch. The ATA was made by gamblers and money shooters, not meant to be a sewing circle.

 

Gee ollie, I copied the above post and ran it through every language translator using google but it didn't find the word APOLOGIZE in there anywhere. What's up with that? So you don't want to make the bet that I didn't earn that pin?

Just kidding ollie, I knew you would never man up and stand behind what you wrote. From reading all the stuff you posted here and on that place you got tossed from I could tell you weren't going to do it. I just wanted to see how you weaseled out of it.

I see you chose the selective amnesia option.

"Gee flyers, most of what you refer to happened nearly 35 years ago. The world has changed while some prefer to live in the past"

I'M living in the past?

If I was living in the past ollie I would have brought up a bunch of names from years ago. Even guys that are DEAD.
I would have told you about the people I "knew" and how I "knew" them and that you didn't "know" them. How I WATCHED someone shoot or kill a good score. I would have done that but it wouldn't make any sense. It would look like something a not too smart 7th grade girl would do.

"Although everyone knows the ATA screwed the pooch by moving to IL the rest of us are not interested in seeing the demise of a game we still love"

I'll just paraphrase a really great shooter I don't "KNOW" but "KNOW OF".

" I don't shoot ata targets because I refuse to give the ata one cent".

Me personally? I actually couldn't care less if the ata survives or not. Did you ever notice how people use "could care less" when in reality they COULDN'T care any less? That always seemed funny. Anyway, you get that right?

"I see you have sons and I'm sure you made every effort to provide them the finest equipment and drag them around the country attending trapshoots-or not. "

I guess this is supposed to show me how you spent money taking your son shooting. And what? If I didn't do that with my son then you are better than me? I'm not going to embarrass you with numbers ollie. I'll just say that both my stepson
and then my Grandson played organized ice hockey. My stepson for 4 years and my Grandson for 11 with the last 6 being on a very high level. We, my wife and I, payed for EVERTHING. You couldn't afford what it cost to do that ollie so do yourself a favor and more embarrassment and don't even go there.

I AM surprised you didn't pull out the "I don't shoot anymore but my son shoots and my wife is so good she could beat you" card earlier. You usually use that one a lot sooner.

"Now if you change your handle to Flyerswerebest you might get more of my respect"

OK, now let me make this so clear that even you can understand it ollie.

WTF makes you think for even a nano second that I want or need YOUR respect?
Really?
For God's sake, go back and read some of the "I know better" posts you have put up.
If you started most of them with "What do you guys think about...…..." instead of the usual
"dawg" stuff like " This is what needs done...… maybe you would get some respect-or not.
No wonder you got tossed.

No bet huh?

 

Smitty, Why did you not come forward with this accusation when it happened? You waited all these years to besmirch a mans name, after he is no longer able to rebut the allegations. I and many other look down on actions such as these. You have no honor.
Any reply that you make will only make you a bigger ass hole than you have already proved your self to be. Roger C.

 

Well gee Roger. Your mind is to the point you cannot remember user Ebsurveyor saying that he also got the shells. That was in the thread I started about the delegates. “It’s not the ATA it’s the Delegates”.

Ebsurveyor notes that Frank’s average went up 3% during the period he had the shells. Look it up yourself.

The fellow that stole Frank’s Hot Shells gave a lot out to us to test. The funny thing is your pal had pallets of these shells and he didn’t share any with you. And I am the bad guy? So you see why I don’t give a rats ass what you think of me. You think the bad guy is the person that turned in the cheat.

Before this forum we had no way to expose the cheating and corruption.

Tell me Roger the shells delivered to the big shooters houses are the same shells we can buy. Go ahead and say it.

 

Magic shells. Now I've heard everything.

 

Duh, this happens to be a Trapshooters website. Who cares if my #1 son played high school ice hockey and still made 4-ATA All-American teams. He even shot the birds at Hegins a few times. Only cost me around $100,000 but I never complained.

I happen to have known many fine and very dead old Trap and Live Bird shooters-Tom Hefele was one. I even spent nearly an hour at his funeral re-living old times with a fine shooter from the past whose name you mentioned. That man had ice in his veins in the ring but doesn't even own a shotgun anymore. Betcha you can't name him.

Listen buddy, you challenged me when you said credit card usage wouldn't help younger people participate in Trap. Well, I maintain you're full of crap. My #1 son whose salary is well in excess of $100,000/year stopped in yesterday with a buddy. His buddies bill for ammo was around $120 and of course he charged it. I asked #1 son how much he traditionally carries in his wallet and he showed me $35. I told you my distributor (Shydas Gun Shop) in Lebanon PA what % of buyers use charge cards and he gave me a figure of around 80%.-that's for guns and ammo.

So I suggest it's time to leave the dark ages-they ain't coming back!

 

So did Ray Staffords average go up considerably. Are you calling him a cheat and crook too?

 

That is a real softball question Roger! The poster had to wait for a fire to destroy the police report. Now, he and his proud to call friend burglar are in the clear. Can you say misprision of a felony? I knew you could.

Not so fast dawg. Anytime I want to break them all; I tape a credit card to my gun.

 

I never called anyone a crook. Get longshot to help you with this. Cheater.....yep did that!

But, all the All Americans knew the Remington Petes that were on the pallet program were hot. If you got the same shells you got some good ones. And the general public could not get them.

I don't give a rats ass how many big names you can drop, or who owns the leg you are humping, if you got illegal shells you were cheating.

And then came Winston and said we will make them all legal. Thanks Neil.

 

"Listen buddy, you challenged me when you said credit card usage wouldn't help younger people participate in Trap."

First, I'm NOT your "buddy".

Second, You need real help. Your reading comprehension sucks. You perceive EVERYTHING as a "challenge" when it doesn't conform to your OPINION. Your OPINION that the use of credit cards will save the almighty ata is your OPINION, nothing more and yet you post it as if you have the answer. That's all it is ollie, your OPINION. It's worth nothing.

You want to compare Shyda's with a gun club? IMO that is about as dumb as you could get. Hell, why not use Amazon? I would imagine ALL there sales are over the internet and use Credit or Debit cards. Geeeez, think first, type second.

All someone has to do is state a different OPINION and you start with the dumbass remarks. You took a swipe at me because you don't like my sign on name? I think more because I questioned your OPINION. You think I'm full of crap because I don't agree with your OPINION? I gotta tell you, THAT will keep me up at night.

This next little gem pretty much sums up the way you try and win a point.

"Betcha you can't name him."

DUH! Do you ever think before you type? How in the world would I know who you talked to? I wasn't there.

Hey here's one for you. Since our club is still open for off hours shooting I took a ride up yesterday.
Betcha you can't name who I talked to.

Still waiting for the apology ollie.

 

I see you weren't around when Ray Stafford shot nothing but Federal X-lites at 1,125 FPS from the fence. He broke many top scores from the 27 until Federal QC produced way too many bloopers in that load. If you're great it was meaningless.

 

You already did name him but since you're so far removed from the sport you profess to love it might be best to go back over one of your posts. THINK!

 

I never saw him or any person you worship shoot a perfect score at the GAH during the great cheat era. They all fell on their faces.

Getting the shells handed to you at the shell house was a great equalizer.

No perfect scores from the so called greats....hmmm Ollie is right about one thing. If you are that great you don't need hot shells. They weren't that great!

 

Welcome back PAR4 feel free to help me with Smitty, he is a carpet bager
. Roger C.

 

I THINK you owe me an apology or retraction in regards to the statement you posted implying I didn't earn that 25 straight Flyers pin.

 

Flyer Olealliedawg, does have some pretty good talking points. Maybe just an (i'm sorry) would be OK. Roger C.

 

Frank Little is more likely to apologize for using the Hot Petes.

 

Alright, alright, I'm truly sorry for even doubting you killed a 25 straight decades ago. We were all young once. Sometimes God never provided a black driver from an end box so I must never have believed in God as I've always been punished. God must have loved you that day. That said, you're wrong on nearly each and every comment you've made since as I'm always right.

 

Brad, everyone already knows no one likes to gamble anymore as the casinos are mostly empty. Do you think it just might be because most are completely closed from the Corona virus?

That said, not everyone going to a shoot is a business owner looking for a place to launder cash. Accepting CC's is much easier than in the past. Swipe it, put in the amount and the payment ends up in your checking account next day. Remember, I'm from your age group and just as stubborn. Today, if you don't accept CC's you're not really in business. At least you won't end up with piles of useless items that you need to turn into more cash.