Seriously. What does it take to make trapshooting great again?

Based on Smith's post, I think that OH & PA shooters should leave the ATA, form their organization and everyone would be happy.

 

I don't have to leave the ata, THEY LEFT ME

 

oldskt94,
If all of the Ohio and PA. shooters left the ATA, the organization would not last one whole year. The organization is on the skids because of the bad moves the leaders (EC) have made, even after taking a vote and not recognizing the fallacy of not following the wishes of the members. They continue kicking the dead horse called Sparta. It was not only a bad deal for ATA shooters it was a horrendously bad deal for the citizens of Illinois. They have lost millions of dollars, and the losses have not stopped yet.
It appears no one on the BOD, or EC even has a business plan to save what is left of the organization let alone rebuild it. Roger C.

 

Roger
That was my point. That's the only was out of this mess, as I see it. If ATA collapses an organization would be in place to step up.

 

oldskt94,
The ATA will not collapse until the EC has lost or wasted the $19,000,000 in investments. The members must keep a wary eye on what is happening in regards to it. They should all be removed from the EC and all delegates should be required to be reafirmend by their state members. Then a vote by all members should elect the new EC. taking their business ability into consideration before electing them to any executive positions. The once respected organization of ATA registered shooters has lost its respect for our leaders. It is now refered to as an OLD BOYS CLUB not good for the longevity of the sport. Sad but true.
The bylaws should also be scrapped and new ones written. They should also be approved by 50% plus one, by all life members. Roger C.

 

Tens of thousands already did. How has that worked out?

 

The ATA is and always has been supported by any and all shooters who choose to shoot registered targets at all of the clubs that host registered shooting ... The daily fees are more then enough to keep the ATA financially sound, so from that stand point the ATA is not going any where nor will it collapse ... The ED, EC, and some of the BOD use it as a cash cow to support their attending shoots while giving the impression they are there to represent the membership, thus getting expenses paid, as well as lodging and transportation, yet they avoid those they are supposed to be representing ... The ATA has always claimed to promote trapshooting when it reality its the clubs and members of those clubs that truly support and promote trap shooting and the ATA ... The claims of generating multi millions of dollars and moving in a fantastic direction are long gone being as the biggest shoot of the year cannot draw a crowd or even break even for the state supplied facility ... If the ED, EC, and some of the BOD were ever held accountable for their actions they would be removed and replaced with people who are truly interested in the advancement and progress of trap shooting to preserve it for generations yet to come ... Trap shooting is not slowing down but the attendance at registered shoots is lacking because of the lack of promotion ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

OK Luke.......
Lets put the competition back in the sport. Draw for squads and banks. Golfers don't get to choose what holes they play or who is in their foursome. I am betting you wont if it takes $$$$ out of Bubba's pocket. You can do it this year. Yahooo!

 

There may be nothing that can be done to make it great again.

The times they are a-changin'.

 

How so?

Budweiser is #4 in domestic beer sales

Photo film is 2% of the rate if production of 2003

Paper road maps are so rarely used that a generation is loosing the ability to read maps

Many homes and dwellings no longer have land lines

Cash isn't needed

And with no cash, there is no need for cashiers

Electric guitar sales have dropped 30% in the last decade

Harley sales are slipping

Sales of bar soap have been slipping

There is a sharp decline in the number of people getting married in the United States over the past few years

Diamond sales are down as the next generation forgo marriage; and if it doesn't forgo marriage it forgoes the traditional ceremony and often the traditional wedding ring

Restaurants like Buffalo Wild Wings, Applebees, Hooters, and Ruby Tuesdays are closing locations across the country, because they are unable to attract the younger generation.

Traditional breakfast

 

All to true and good points too. I also like everything Live Oak said. I'd add also draw for handicap squad and positions like the Grand did when I first started shooting and go to moving several traps and scrap the bank system all together. I'd throw in some added money by class and do away with all the categories, trap shooting should be about ability and not age or sex.

You don't really have to invent anything just go back a few years to what worked when trap shooting was great. Brad

 

While many new casinos are opening up with increasing revenues. People still like to gamble but want to believe they'll have a chance of winning.

 

Dawg, ain't that the truth.
Trapshooting and gambling. Live bird shooters and the gamblers that made that game great. Big money back then and BIG money in the recent past. A Calcutta a few dollars shy of $200,000.00 split over 2 days?
Even at the small shoots there were side bets of a few bucks on each bird. I've seen guys bet on the shooter and then the very next call bet on the bird. As long as there was some action. Kill the first ten and you got most of your day money back. Play the Great Eastern purse and hit 4th place money and you STILL got at least something. Kill them all at a shoot with only 80-100 shooters and win thousands.

Clay target "Trapshooting" USED to have that same atmosphere. It should, it all started with live birds. If you were more than half assed you had a chance to win at least some of your money back. On a good day at a decent size shoot a 97 in caps paid for the day, your shells, food, gas and you had money to take home to buy more Fed papers and components so you could do it again the next weekend.

Think not? Then how in the hell did all of us blue collar workers afford to shoot 5-6K singles, 4K caps and 3k doubles EVERY year, for YEARS, plus league shoots 3 times a week and the practice night at our own home clubs. 200-300 a day for a week before the state or Grand. If you didn't win something you would have to cut back and God forbid we couldn't do that. Registered shooting was the only thing that mattered.
Now?
The type 3 MX8 is in the closet and I'm writing this while sitting in our comped room at the Chateau at Nemacolin. Comped 2 nights because we gamble. Down a little under $400 but it's early. I said, as long as there is some action.

Now before all you naysayers and non gamblers start telling me that casinos suck be careful, I might want to bet you a few bucks that I actually was up a little over 7k last year, and you would lose the bet because I would show you all the hand pay slips and the win/loss statements. Which I would have no problem posting IF the bet was right.
Wheeling Island Race Track and Casino tomorrow night for Valentines Day.

We haven't paid for a room or food in PA, WV, NJ, or the Atlantis in the Bahama's for the last 20 years.
Clay targets or Casinos. The only thing they have in common are the both start with C

 

Not complicated.

 

Attitude plays a huge part in the manner things are perceived.
Next Sunday FFA Alumni is putting on a shoot for the kids...... I suspect there will be 80 or more shooting and I get to help and spend the day with them..... Seriously....... trap is great again and still.............. and last week I beat Buck in our League........ How could things be better??????? Larry

 

More than 1900 in the GAH.

Verses right now?

How could things be worse? Not much worse for the ATA. Right now we have the same amount in the GAH as we did shortly after WWII.

graph please.....

 

Tomorrows shooters have to come from somewhere and they certainly cannot come from the past. A foundation must be created to build on..... Larry

 

Larry I like what you are saying, but unless the ATA EC gets their heads out of there asses what is the next level for those kids that like competition? Money Shooting was always the next step and the ATA has killed that so just Registered practice isn't going to build anything great. Brad

 

Watching and helping the kids lets me enjoy the experience of those shooting for the pure joy of shooting... I suspect that those that now shoot for big dollars and fame were once like Kevin for example. 14 years old and full of piss and vineger. He hits the range with a grin bigger than all outdoors, hustles around to help with setting traps and loading birds and then its "come on Larry, I'm going to kick your butt". There are 4 girls in their mid teens in Levi's, boots and full of giggles challenging anyone who dares to a competition. Perhaps some will go on to bigger and better things but at least the fire is getting built. Often it seems the EC and Boards of many organizations forget basics....... Larry

 

Larry you hit that nail on the head. Kevin sounds like most of the old time money shooters I've read about or have personally known. If you like to read I suggest Jimmy Robinson's books about the grand or maybe we can get Historybuff to relay some stories about money shooting in the past. Kids need that next level. Brad

 

Just finished the day with the KID'S........45 perhaps 55 showed up..... Thrill to watch them shoot and listen to them jabber. Majority of their shooting was from the 25 thru the 27 yard line....Not the best day in the world but the level of their shooting was unreal. Many of them came over to the "Pro" side of things and shot with the best of them...
Took a little poll asking how many were going to join the High School activity. 15 had already done the paper work and 9 or 10 were going to sign up Tuesday....... and this from a county with a total of about 6000 citizens..... where they go with their shooting is up to them but we will continue to do our damnest to provide what we can....... Larry

 

Good job Larry, and all the other volunteers too. Brad

 

No it is not that the Grand Moved, IT was How it got moved. And the changes to Trapshooting by POOR Managemengt. When you get a Professor that tries to Dazzle you with FAKE GRAPHS, and you believe it, that is the demise of a fine Sport.

Gary Bryant..............................Dr.longshot

 

I can't speak for the other 1,999 shooters that don't bother going to that place in IL. but for myself, I won't drive 10+ hours to go there. If it was closer, like the 5-1/2 hour drive to VANDALIA I probably would go and stay the entire week again.

As far as his last sentence?

I can't get past VANDALIA, the home of the last GRAND American & the GOOD old days!

Last year, 2,003 shooters in the GAH. Yeah, fantastic direction!

 

There you go! If it was in MY back yard! I know numbers are down but it's not all because it moved. Take almost all sports are down not just the ATA. I don't think the good old days will ever be back WE all have to move on and make shooting & the ATA the best we can!

 

I don't consider 5-1/2 hours my back yard. And YES, if it was closer, me, and probably a couple thousand shooters, might just show up.

Numbers are DOWN? Ya think?

The numbers are only HALF what they used to be because of the move farther away from all the shooters that used to drive in for just the big day. When you move away from your base and move it to a place people didn't want it to move to, you have to live with the consequences.

I for one, and it looks like I'm not alone, HAVE moved on.

Blago sold them a bill of goods.

How's that old saying go about making a bed then sleeping in it?

 

I think instead of the word Backyard it probably should be Back Woods.
Not too many shooters are willing to drive long distances to, as it's referred here in Ohio as "Nowhere".
The facility far outweighs it's location, which is fine with me, but most shooters will want more if they are going to the Grand.


Regards.....Gerald

 

.

I agree.

I am on record as saying the current process for change management is a flawed process, because it does not provide the members with a realistic and effective way to effect change. Fixing this flawed process would be my number one priority.

T Shot, I would appreciate your thoughts on how to make the ATA the best we can.

Thanks,
Garry

 

Drain the SWAMP, make the ATA GREAT AGAIN ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

There was a ruthless corporate management guy (in human resources, no less) who told us:

"It is easier to change people .... than it is to change people!"

Think about it. He thought nothing of getting rid of someone to change things. Sounds like this may be a way to address the "flawed change management process" in trapshooting being discussed here. That said, I personally have no dog in this "fight" ....just passing along something in my business/teaching experience. I used to tell this to my students in my teaching days...got lots if spirited class discussions going.

Regards, Ed

 

1st off the Grand is not in the back woods! Yes it's 50 miles from St Louis bnt there is lots of things around the WSRC! Get out and look!
We need to support the ATA by going to more shoots and yes the Grand. The ATA needs to promote itself more & better. We need to change some of our state delegates and if necessary change some of the bod. The ATA is not a bad organization and it will be better if we ALL support it.

 

I like MOST dedicated Trapshooters in the ATA shot my best, As I got better I moved up in Class, AA in a very short time, and in 2 years was on the 27, I never, ever sandbagged to shoot a lower class to get a win. In calcuttas I was known to NEVER drop targets because someone bought me. I would try to buy myself to a certain point, and when it got too high I would let them buy me, I liked the 50/50 buyer/shooter split, but the 80/20 buyer calcuttas put a lot more money in the pot. You go to a big shoot and a drunken buyer would drive up your bid, I did make some pay a hell of a price to buy me. Calcuttas put money in all the big ATA Shoots, and the Calcuttas were GOOD FOR BUSINESS. I have seen Leo Harrison sell for over $5,000, He very seldom was out of the money. I LOVED shooting CALCUTTA's, I was seldom out of the money, Because of all the options of the 25s, 50s, paid very well, especially the 50s as there was 3 of them, the 1st, 2nd & 3rd. I have won over $3,000 on the 50s alone, then the Lewis class options. You have to play money to win money, and have faith in your ability. Calcutta's in Registered Shooting is A GREAT DRAW, and should be done.

The targets NEED to be COMPETETIVE for bigger PAYOUTS!!!!

Gary Bryant.................................Dr.longshot

 

You don't even shoot there. I don't have to go to the "gun hate state". There is a motel north of the CC that costs $32. I would have to drive 2 hours a days to and from a room in the gun hating state. Don't tell us where we have to shoot. Now go tell dad you were on his computer.

 

I do more to support the ATA than you. I have shoot every Grand since it opened & a few other shoots! I don't care where you shoot. Go to the CC of you want I will never go to that dump!

 

Too much of the Smithy truth serum.

Everyone has an angle.

 

Some people hate success. He probably hates Donald Trump too.

 

Some of you hate the WSRC and you say so, but when I say anything about the CC you go crazy! Just goes to show how narrow minded you are! You left the ATA a long time ago & won't help fix it.

 

T Shot ..... there are many times you could do yourself a favor and STFU .....

Calling the "CC" a "dump" without shooting there is NOT ..... "say anything about the CC" .....

And dumb-ass things like "I have shoot[sic] every Grand since it opened" ..... the "Grand" didn't just "open", but it died when "Sparta" opened .....

I at least shot the "Grand in Sparta" before giving an "opinion" ..... try the same before calling someplace a "dump", or remain a buffoon to be scoffed at .....

 

You call the WSRC a dump and I doubt you have ever seen it let alone shot there! I called the CC. a dump to prove how stupid you sound. Same with saying the Grand died when it moved. Talk about saying dumb-add thongs it's you. Sad for a moderator.

 

T shot, my opinion for what it is worth, and remember I have shot in 38 states and 4 Canadian Providences, and I have been to Sparta on 2 occasions, also I might add I was employed by Beretta for many years is that to compare Sparta to the Cardinal Center is like comparing Kaitlin (always be Bruce to me) Jenner to a young Marilyn Monroe. One went from a box of Wheaties to a box of fruit loops and the other from a mans dreams in Playboy to an Iconic Sex Symbol. Sparta ain't sexy and the Cardinal is.

So I have to ask you T shot do you "bat" with Bruce? Brad

 

"Same with saying the Grand died when it moved"

OK, you tell us when it died.

Because, if you haven't been keeping up, IT IS DEAD.

2,002 plus you, if you went last August to the place in IL., for what used to be the biggest shooting event of the year.

Yeah, DEAD!

 

I didn't see any thongs and I looked at all the pictures that have been posted since this site started.

 

How many kids play Little League baseball?

How many of them ever play baseball as adults?

 

Most trap ranges I grew up with had a bar. And people drank. Lots of money made for the club that way.

 

Most gun club when/where I grew up had strict no drinking policies.

 

j price, Same thing with me, Shooters never were allowed to shoot drunk. Another shooter or club management would see to that. I was always more scared of some old geeser with a release trigger and a flinch than I was a shooter with a Budweiser. Also bad reloads I saw two guns blow up over the years and one kid shoot a hole through the club house porch roof. Also at Pa a 20 something kid shot a hole in his foot because he would put his 1100 on it and then close the action, I warned him about it earlier in the week but it didn't have the same result as the light 8 did I'm guessing. Brad

 

I'll try later to post a pic back in the day at the MD state shoot of a Remington rep with the back of his car loaded with booze passing out drinks. Now this was after we all shot.

 

In NE Oregon we have 3 high schools creating "trapshooting" as a school backed activity. Wallowa County is combining kids from their 3 county high schools for a "team" and so far 23 young folks have signed intent to shoot. LaGrande has 25 on the roster and Union had an amazing 42 sign up. Now all these kids have till the 15th to complete their sign up and till the 28th to pay the initial fee. Last year I helped coach 13 from LaGrande 10 of those 13 are back this year. The Oregon State Highschool League is the organization behind this effort and hosts a statewide competition during the summer. I understand there is a national competition also. The LaGrande Gun Club hosts the local college Trap club.... Last Wednesday night 26 college kids showed up and shot...... This Saturday they are hosting a "Shamrock" shoot, 28 highschool and college kids have pre-registered to shoot.
What does it take??????? We have to start somewhere with a base foundation of shooters..... this is what we are doing. Larry

 

How can WE all support it, if they don't LISTEN TO US?

 

Trap shooters have evolved over the years, going from sleeping in their cars and peeing behind the bushes like the early years in Vandalia are long gone and far behind us ... Many of the shooters would have to drive a long way to get to Sparta, then a long commute on a daily basis if they cannot find a place to stay locally or close by which is a problem because there isn't any place ... There are a lot of shooters who do not have to drive 50 miles to get to shoot so to be burdened with a 50 (50 plus) mile commute just will not do it, they do not have to ... The ATA was given fair warning before they relocated to Sparta, Ill that many shooters will not make the trip for what ever reason, this warning was ignored and the results are obvious every years when far less shooters show up for what used to be the biggest event of the year in the World of Trap Shooting ... Its not the shooters who are to blame, its the ATA for making a move that proves how much they really do (not) pay attention to what the membership says or desires ... They are at a point where they get what they deserve, what ever that may end up being ... Those that said they will not attend are standing by their convictions and that is their God given right ... The ATA can blame no one but them self, it is not the shooters duty to support them when they get ignored by the association that needs their support ... Trap shooters do not need the ATA to shoot trap, as proven by looking at the clubs who gave up shooting registered targets that have lines of people waiting their turn ... There are many shooters who now turn to the Cardinal Center for their fix of bigger shoots rather than travel to Illinois ... Stick those guilt trips where the sun don't shine, we have heard them all before ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Continental had a shoot last Sunday for Steak (another meat shoot) 50 bird 25 16's and 25 20 yard and they had 16 plus squads. For those of you that have never shot there the traps face south, the targets are very hard. There was one 49 a couple of 47's. A score of 29 won the last Lewis class. They pay out 4 places for every 8 shooters. I think they are keeping trap shooting great around here along with Lepsic, Cloverdale, Paulding, Williams Co. and many other small Northwest Ohio trap clubs. Brad

 

They had a good crowd, Plus they run 17 still shoots and 10 scatterboards and their trap targets are tough

 

I grew up in Utah. For many years, the best gunclub in the state was the Salt Lake Gun Club run by a man named Larry Mitchell. They held the State Shoot there for many years.
The clubhouse was a pretty large building and the entire up stairs was a "private club" which was required under Utah law to server liquor. It was a full service, hard alcohol bar. It was pretty common and routine for folks to drink and shoot.
On top of that, when the State Shoot went on, they always had a big Budweiser trailer parked prominently right in front of the central traps which had like 6 taps selling draft beer. You were "supposed" to drink the beer after you shot. But they started serving beer (and the club bar was open) from the time they started in the morning and nobody policed it unless someone was so drunk they couldn't walk. (Which was also pretty common.)
Drinking was pretty common at other Utah trap clubs (Provo, Spanish Fork, Heber) but I don't know of any others that were a combination gun club and bar.
Jake

 

Bud tent needed at the Cardinal Center.

 

FrankL your wish may well be granted in 2018.

 

Want to know what has been killing Trap Shooting? 1.) Bambi, 2.) two generations of soccer Mom's, 3.) The Computer, 4.) Sporting Clays. 5.) The general cost to shoot compared to disposable income has skyrocketed, 6.) a 50% decline in hunting license's in the last 40 years 7.) property and land use issues {EPA} There are surely other factors as well, but these pretty much cover about 85% of the decline. And it is never going to come back to the levels of the 1970's.

 

Money is the root of all evil..

 

Yes, but I was corrected once after saying that. I was told: "The LOVE of money (emphasis added) is the root of all evil..."

 

You read these old posts and in reflection what direction are we headed?

 

The only thing missing!!!

 

Seems that what it takes to make trapshooting great again is one more trip to the range with friends. Did that yesterday in fact. We have a distance stake, angle stakes but set speed with a radar gun.
Shot some singles, some handicap, 2 rounds of Continental and finished up with 2 rounds of "pump doubles". Friends, guns, 2 dogs watching..... snowed "just a little" but no wind. Ever shoot doubles with a pump? What a hoot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Trip to the range with friends is "making trap great again" for us. Sunday the kids, more dogs, couple girlfriends and wives, homemade cookies and coffee with a warm fire and lots of fun......... Larry

 

Sorry if this is too long. I have never expressed my opinion on this subject. So Here is my story.........
I am from Utah and fell in love with trapshooting from day one.
I started in a gravel pit shooting my little local town's two turkey shoots they put on every year. Lincoln manual throwers behind straw bales stacked up.Shooting our bird hunting guns. Pump Remington's and Browning's. Winning them turkeys meant the world at the time. As word always spread throughout my little town who won the most. Thus stamping that individual as the best shot in town. A BIG deal for us at the time. Us local country boys used to make fun of the "PRO"s that used to show up from over the mountain from the big city. With their fancy single shot official trap guns.They always seemed to struggle shooting in the "dirt" as we called it. Instead of on the concrete at a real trap club. We loved beating them so called "pro's"!! But at the end of the day, we all got a long and had a great time. I eventually found out they weren't really "pro's". Just guys that loved shooting trap and moved up to trap guns. From their own bird hunting guns. As I eventually did.

After a couple years of shooting mine and another little neighboring local town's turkey shoot, I started to search for more.
I wanted to see what else was out there. Had always heard of the "ATA" and how good the shooters were.
Guys and gals that could break a 100 straight targets sounded immortal & impossible to me at the time. So I went searching. I found a very nice and established trap club 30 miles over the mountain from me. They shot two days a week.
Mainly just fun shoots. But here the winners received CASH not turkeys. 50 -60 shooters lined up two days a week shooting for money! Old guys, young guys, women and kids. All ages and both sex's shooting against one another for money. Not a lot as most know. Just annies & backers paying 1st, second & third. But if you had a good night or day you could pay for your shooting and go home with $100 in your pocket. I was mesmerized! Now It took me a few times paying my dues on that concrete, with all them "pros" that had been coming to my little town's turkey shoot. LOL!
But eventually I won! It was like the best drug in the world going into my veins when they paid me the cash. I was hooked! I LIVED for shooting them fun shoots. Nothing could keep me away from them two days a week.
After a couple months of this, the club was going to shoot what they called a state round robin. It was 5 shooters shooting as a team with each individual classified A-B-C-D-E. The "A" shooter being a very good (PRO) shooter & the "E" being a new shooter with little to no experience shooting. You know what the B, C, D shooter would be.
Each team shot 75 singles a week for 3 weeks with a handicap being established each week with your scores.
At the end of them 3 weeks the top 3 teams at the club were sent to the "state finals" against the top three teams from all the other clubs in the state. It was a lot of fun. Sadly that isn't shot anymore in Utah. A real shame in my opinion.
This round robin started it all for me, shooting for a score. I ate this up 100 times more than fun shooting.
So like most I practiced feverishly, wanting to break a perfect 25. Then 50, 75 and the highly once thought impossible 100.

I started shooting ATA in 1999. When apparently it was all starting to go south & the easy targets had been introduced. Hell I didn't know they were "easy" they were damn hard for me, still are. I have had some good days, bad days and horrific days. With a great day thrown in the mix every now and again. But not nearly enough. I loved registered shooting.
I will never forget the feeling I had @ the 2001 Grand. When I saw Joseph Lutic's lone 99 payday in Vandalia. In either the president's or preliminary handicap. Over 29K!! I about fell down when I seen that! INCREDIBLE!!!
While back there for the first time when I wasn't shooting, I ran all over hell trying to find all the guys I had read about.
THEE actual PRO's! Leo, Brad, Dan, Kay, Ray, Ricky and all the others. I wanted to watch and study their every move they made to a target. 16's, doubles, and Handicap. Needless to say that's all I should have done my first time there is watch. I was in too much awe and overwhelmed with nerves. Did not shoot well at all. LOL!!!!
I did much better the second & last time I went back to Vandalia in 2004. That was and still is the only trips I have ever taken to the Grand. So thankful I got to experience Vandalia. I do want to see Sparta and the Cardinal Center one day.
I am your typical type "A" personality that hates to lose. I loved the idea of circling the card & betting on myself and a skill that I worked at. I shot everyday I could. Worked my ass off so I could go to the big shoots and not just be happy to be there to donate' as most people say. I wasn't there to donate. I was there to win. Or at the very least get a little piece of the pie. However way I could. A measly $50 on a 25 in a handicap made me feel good if its all I got. Regardless what my score ended up being. It was better than $0. It gave me confidence that I had preformed well on at least one trap WITH money at stake. And that I could stand on the same line as the best in the world an be competitive. There is no better feeling in the world than winning money. Especially at a skill you have worked for. I don't care if its $1 or 29 thousand. Nothing tops that feeling of winning money. Hell why do you think the casinos are packed? Everyone wanting to feel that way. Chasing after it dollar after dollar.

I loved the atmosphere of the big shoots. Reno, Vegas, Phoenix, and of course Vandalia to name a few. Being in Utah Reno & Vegas were but a few hours drive. I Loved RENO. Never shot Harold's obviously, but Sage Hill was a magical place for this guy.Them green targets lit up by the Reno sunshine against the sage background looked like huge flying garbage can lids! My absolute favorite place to pull the trigger. Broke my heart the day that place closed.Then there was Vegas! I never shot well there but who can't love Vegas! That old place just reaked of history and big time money shooting. Sadly that place is gone too. I have shot the new club, shot very well there, and its a fantastic venue. But it will never rival that wonderful old club. Never got to shoot Taylors. But I have driven out there a couple times to eat a steak and just look around and imagine where the trap houses and shooting took place. When you are there you can just feel the nostalgia & excitement that used to take place out there.

I have met some amazing people. Became friends with some of the best shotgun shooters on the planet. Shot with them, against them, learned from them. I loved beating them when it was my day and shook their hands walking off the line when they had just beaten me and everyone else yet again. I hated that I had just had my ass kicked, but damn sure didn't cry about it. There was no one to blame but MYSELF period. Not EASY TARGETS. All losing did was drive me to work harder. The one thing I wish everyone would realize is these great shooters didn't just wake up great. Everyone of them has worked their asses off to become great. Nothing "great' is EVER EASY. You have to WORK hard and dedicate your life to become great at something. What amazes me about some of the greats I personally know is their drive. I have an insane amount of drive and will to win. But the greats have another gear. A gear most people, including myself just will never know. This is what I call god given. Not their actual shooting skills. They worked hard to obtain their shooting talent, mentally and mechanically. But this indescribable drive, will to win, hunger, along with all their hard work is what made or currently makes them great. NOT EASY TARGETS. Especially the ones that did it or have been doing it for 20,30,40 years. They just seem to never win enough, never get content with all the things they have accomplished. They are always wanting more. I admire & respect that immensely. THEY ARE SIMPLY INCREDIBLE.

My personal opinion for the decline or why trapshooting isn't great is NOT the so called "easy targets" that are now being thrown. I despise that explanation. Like I stated, they have never been easy for me. I also despise the downplaying of the grand slams that have been achieved the last 20 years. I don't care how many more have been achieved since the introduction of the "EASY TARGETS". Its disrespectful to me and everyone else that has achieved it. If it's so easy to obtain then everyone should have one. I know ALOT of very, very good, very dedicated shooters that haven't achieved it. I also am very well aware being from Utah the cliché "if you want to finish your grand slam just go to Spanish Fork Utah". Now I do know many who have completed their slams there. No denying that. But for everyone of those who have done it here. I know triple that amount that has came and went home without it. Only to return multiple times and fail again and again. Its no gimme. Never has been and never will be. I'm not saying it wasn't tougher to achieve 25 plus years ago. Obviously more speed and tougher angles make a moving target tougher to hit. But putting them individuals that did it on the "HARDER" target on a higher pedestal isn't right. Sorry but a lot of us have only shot the current target being thrown. We deserve the respect of the accomplishment. It's DAMN HARD TO ACHIEVE.
I don't know ANYONE that has actually accomplished the feat proclaim it was easy and it shouldn't count as much as the others that did it 25 plus years ago. THEY ALL COUNT with equal status!

I no longer shoot anymore. Because of where the sport has been directed. It's ALL about ALL American points &
averages. I've never chased points. Had a job like so many others that got in the way. But have always admired the
ones that make the AA teams. The real teams. 32 men and 20 women. Much respect given to the kids teams as well. They most definitely can hold their own. But the rest of the categories just cheapen the sport. I'm sorry and mean no disrespect. But they do in my opinion. In fact I think 32 is too many for the men's team.
I always paid attention to my average for it was a measuring stick for my yearly goals I would set for myself. But that was all it was. I shot for the thrill of winning on those far and few good and great days. The belt buckles, leather bags and money. Not that I won millions of dollars. I definitely spent WAY more than I ever won. For the most part it was a different type of payday when I shot. Other than in Vandalia I never seen payouts that could pay for a year or two of college. I witnessed very good payouts in RENO, Phoenix and Vegas. Ones that would pay for another trip back or to another big shoot somewhere else. But never enough to change your life. Basically you shot to see if you could pay for your day of shooting. Or at the big shoots get a good hit and pay for the entire shoot. Hopefully Including what you had lost in the damn casino! LOL! But even them type of payouts were rare, but possible if you got lucky on a loner.But one things for sure, when I or anyone else got back to our local club from a big shoot and everyone had heard or read one of us had won or put a score or two on the board. The first thing asked was "How much did it pay or how much did you win'? By almost everyone there and wherever else you went shooting for the next month. Never was I asked what kind of trophy or how many AA points I received.

People have gotten soft and the self entitlement crowd has ruined the sport (money) and competition of handicap trapshooting. They want to sit back there and pound out 83's,turn down reduction after reduction and bitch about all the high scores. All the while having no belief at all in themselves to compete, have no desire to want to work hard to get better and by god will not play one dime of money. Because they will not donate to the pro's. I will never understand that mentality. The only reason the so called handicap system doesn't work is because of these type of shooters. I have always believed in compulsory purses. I know a lot of people that would rather quit than HAVE it be mandatory to play a purse. I say let them go. Let them go back to league & fun shooting. Registered shooting would suffer for a bit from whomever left. But eventually it would become better and stronger. it would only be a place for the super competitive and highly motivated shooters. like the old days. I believe there should be one mandatory purse in every singles and doubles event. That reward the CLASS CHAMPIONS. I think there should be two for a handicap. One for the yardages and one for the actual event champion and place winners. Doesn't have to be an enormous amount. Hell it could be a modest $5 to each compulsory purse. But at least its something to shoot for and rewards all the winners of the event. At the very least it should be done in the championship events at the state shoots, satellite Grand's & Grand. Just from a social aspect it would create!
But most don't agree & I understand that. There are too many that don't want the money in the sport. They think its bad for the sport. Well you can't go through a single day without hearing about money in either a sporting event like Golf, or how much a sporting athlete wants to make or is making in a new contract. Sorry, but money drives everything in the world of competition and sport! But then again so does the drive and hunger to WIN. Sad to say less and less people have that drive in todays society. They just want to wake up & be a winner. Doesn't work that way.
I know many of you will disagree with most if not all of this, and that's ok! You are more than allowed too! That's what makes where we live such a great place! I'm not looking for any type of argument or rebuttal. This is all coming from just a nobody with a strong but humble opinion from the great state of Utah. God bless!




.

 

Js, Utah is not so far away....... next time you head West plan for a Sunday in Wallowa....... Fun and birds you can see. Relax a little, drink a little coffee (unless John makes it) BS a bit and do some shooting..... or not......
All fun, no pressure, just feels good. Larry

 

I can't understand shooters that are afraid of competing against so called professional shooters. I don't want competing at shooting events to become like our educational system where if you aren't good enough we will lower the standards for you.
Hell,when I go to a shoot, I intend on beating all of the contenders. I just don't want to be competing against shooters that I know I can beat, I want to beat the big dogs too. Little or not known shooters have won at the Grand American..
My motto is "DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE COMPETITION, MAKE THEM WORRY ABOUT YOU."

Lots of shooters won't put the time into becoming a better shooter and prefer to have the standards lowered so they can be competitive. Always suspect that your competitors are working harder than you are to be better, so you will have to dig in to be able to beat them. Like Harlan Campbell says being a better shooter is a choice and if you aren't practicing, you better hope you are having a good day.

 

Charger, You are spot on, the ATA has turned trap shooting into a xxxxx sport, of trying to make unskilled shooters into champions. The only way that can happen is with practice and dedication on the shooters part. Roger C.

 

The shooters that make their living trapshooting don't want their own class but just let some 22 yarder break a winning score
and hear them whine about something needs to be done about sandbaggers. I gave up registered shooting 25 years ago for that reason. I shoot now for personal satisfaction and don't need the ATA for that. The ATA has always catered to the top tier of shooters and took money from the rest.

 

The ones who complain most about trapshooting being too easy never broke a decent singles average or made it to the 27 yd. line. Post your averages then tell us how easy the game is!

 

Do you mean when the ATA left trapshooting? I gave up on the ATA, but not trap shooting. I gave up on marathon shoots with no money-Not local clubs --Two and three house clubs that are 100 plus years old and doing fine and growing. Does anyone have a number of clay bird numbers sold? Up or down over the last 50 years? that would give a great indication where this sport is going. And the ATA decline.

 

Well, here we go. PA results are in. 817 entries in the Singles Saturday with 3-100's. Sunday only had 756 entries and only 1-100. How much greater can we make the sport by increasing the difficulty factor?

 

So, maybe there is an answer to making Trapshooting great again. Stop complaining while sitting on the bench and invite a neighbor or friend to participate. It wouldn't hurt to buy a case of shells for the youth organizations that struggle for financing. Those are positive steps instead of being a crybaby that never was good enough to defeat the "big dogs" and want to change the rules.

 

Oleo, You just described your self with the last sentence of your post, was that by mistake or did you admit that you helped to change the rules?
Please clarify for the masses. Roger C.

 

Roger, we don't shoot AZ fluffballs in PA. We leave those to the has beens and never was beens.

 

OLEO, YOU DID NOT EVEN EVER MAKE THE "D" TEEM. AND YOU SET PA. FLUFF BALLS TO PUMP UP YOUR 16YD AVERAGE. AND YOU STILL COULD NOT SHOOT HANDICAP OR DOUBLES.
I SHOT IN MANY STATES; Ohio, West Virginia, Fla., Michigan, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas, New Mexico. Nevada. Utah , Montana, Wyoming, Arizona,
Illinois, Colorado. I do not think they set fluff targets in all of them. Also, western grand, southern grand, spring grand, autumn grand, grand American for 44yrs.
IF YOU WERE SETTING THE TARGETS AT THOSE CLUBS MAYBE I COULD HAVE WON A FEW EVENTS AT THEM. ROGER C

 

Someone should read that title in the Green box under Roger’s name.

Just saying…

 

Roger, you've been shooting "fluffballs" at most of those locations nearly 40 years and never complained. Now that you can't even break a trap set in the center hole you believe changing the game will somehow bring back the masses and make winners out of losers. The number 4-100's out of 1,575 entries tells the real story-PA targets are tough enough without throwing 'em wider and faster. Benchwarmers can't possibly understand.

 

OLEO, 4 out of 1575 indicates that either the weather was bad or their was a large lack of ability involved. Maybe they were used to the ONE hole 45 yard targets you set. for the record, have you ever shot any targets out west? Roger C.

 

Roger, you must remember that place in Utah where everyone went to pad their averages and get the last leg on their Grand Slams. Shoot much there? We need more places like that to make Trapshooting great again.

BTW, your scores wouldn't even get an honorable mention for the HOF in PA.

 

Were you ever in Utah? Or are you just repeating rumors? I remember the guy in PA. that admitted that he set illegal fluff targets for his shooters.
You did not answer my question, as to where you shot most of your targets. No matter what targets were thrown, you were never any thing but a bench
warmer. You have a nice day, and remind your self how you helped degrade the sport of registered trap shooting. Roger C.
PS go back and read Flyersarebest last post.

 

Let's see, 824 shooters in PA's Singles championship and 4 shooters broke 199's. No 200's again. High score in the Handicap championship was a 97 Resident and 98 non-resident. It seems to me the only place the targets aren't difficult enough is to bench warmers, has beens and never was beens. We need to move AZ and UT targets to PA to boost scoring-that should make trapshooting great again.

 

OLEO, I WILL GO BACK TO TALKING TO WPT's, TOASTER, I CAN GET HONEST ANSWERS THERE. DID YOU EVER SHOOT WESTERN TARGETS?
answer the question, surly that is not to hard for you to do. ALL YOU EVER SHOT WERE THOSE ILLEGAL TARGETS YOU SET IN PA.
what were you major wins at the sport of trap shooting? we will all wait for your answer. Roger C.

 

Roger hasn't shot a "Roger Legal Target" in around 40 years but believes throwing his AZ and UT fluffballs will somehow save trapshooting. No thanks, our PA targets are tough enough and the scoring proves it. Bottom line, Eastern targets are plenty difficult enough compared to anything West of PA.

 

"Seriously. What does it take to make trapshooting great again?"


Well, after four years of trying to answer the above question it would appear the answer is now moot. It will never be great again. Blame the ATA, blame the targets, blame the economy or blame global warming, or blame all of the above. The glory days are long gone along with $1.00 a gallon gas.

What is not gone is the daily bitching about the fact that it is gone.

Well, that and oleo and roger exchanging sweet nothings.

 

OLEA, YOU TALK LIKE A MAN WITH NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE RULES OF COMPETITVE SPORTS. You and many like you have been a blight on the sport, If you had any honor you would be ashamed of your self. You did not have the ability to be a big dog, so you brought the competition down to your level and still failed.
answer the question, did you ever shoot western targets? ROGER C.
are you implying that all top guns from the west would be never wases if they shot in pa.?
you are delusional.

 

Western targets must be much too easy since Roger and his best buds keep trying to change 'em. Given the circumstances I wouldn't waste my time shooting AZ or UT fluffballs. We all know quite a few wannabe big dogs finished their Grand Slams in UT so I suppose we should at least put an asterisk by their names to make Roger happy. That said, Roger's averages wouldn't even get an honorable mention for a PA HOF and wouldn't make Trapshooting great again. BTW, Roger has been shooting those (I'm not allowed to mention what hole again) for nearly 40 years in most of those states he's mentioned without complaint.

 

OLEA, They say if lie is repeated often enough even the liar will start to believe it. You have never been to any of the big money shoots we have had out west but, you try and tell me that they all set fluff targets. You are as full of s&&t as a thanks giving turkey. Why did you not answer my Question , about ever having shot out west. Can you answer this one? HAVE YOU EVER SHOT ANY PLACE BUT PA. OHIO, WV.?
ps. You do not get in the H.O.F. for a 16 yd. average. It is for major wins. Roger C.

 

The big money shoots ended when the short yardage shooters left the game and went to the casinos for better odds. BTW, no one got rich playing the game with an 86% Handicap average unless they mastered the game of sandbagging or dreamed a lot. Anyway, why shoot targets where the shooters are always complaining they're too easy and want to change the game believing it'll somehow make it better. Our Eastern targets are plenty difficult enough.

 

Oleo, This is the last info I will give you. You are either to dumb or just plain dense to under stand. There is very little difference in western targets from either northern, southern , or eastern targets. You have never shot any where but PA. targets. How can you make the statement that everyone was setting fluff targets when you have never been there. I believe any target set to the ATA guide lines would be to tough for your lack of ability.
It is time for you to quit accusing all target setter of fudging of the target setting rules. Your accusations are unfounded by any personal experience at seeing the targets set out west, or any place but PA. Quit trying to justify your lack of not being a big dog on tougher PA. targets, and admit is lack of ability on your part. Now you have a nice day and reread my statements until you understand what I'M TRYING TO POINT OUT TO YOU. Roger C.

 

I've shot targets in Ontario, NY, NJ, FL VA, WVA, MD, Vandalia and Cardinal Center (that's as far West as I need to go). The targets were fine at all of 'em so they must be too easy farther West since Roger keeps saying they're too easy. BTW, I came in RU in the main Handicap event in the last Eastern Zone shoot held in Hamilton ON. My winnings totaled a mere $185 and took me over two months to collect. Trapshooting wasn't very great then either.

 

QLEO, IS THAT YOUR ONLY CLAIM TO FAME? Roger C.

 

Nope, but it proves I shot targets enough places other than PA to pass judgement on 'em. Quite crying and shoot!

 

Oleo, You are not qualified to pass judgement on any thing connected to the target setting rules of the ATA. You are a self confessed cheater and you never were as a good trap shooter. The best thing you could do for your self is to shut up. the more you talk the dumber you sound. I'm not crying I'm just trying to shut down people like you that have ruined a once great sport. I will no longer consider you saying anything worth responding to. Roger C.

 

Anyone care to place odds that Roger will indeed respond to oleo in the future?

The morning Vegas line has it at even money.

Flyers has a better handle on the odds so let's hope he chimes in.

 

shortbarrel, Don't bet the farm on it. I have no use for the self admitted cheater. Roger C.

 

I won't waste my time discussing misplaced funds and trap machines either. Thievery is worse than cheating.

 

You win shortbarrel, What are you implying with your statement about misplaced funds and trap machines? Are you implying that I am a thief?
Roger C.

 

Roger, I hope that is not what he meant. I think it has to do with your many posts about the ata misplacing funds and your past statements about the ata buying X number of new trap machines for that place in ILLnews and that not all of them were actually accounted for.

Andy, clarify what you meant. Please tell me I’m correct. If I’m not and you were implying something nefarious, I will first delete any posts with that subject matter and secondly, I will use what little influence I have with the administration/owners to get you a little alone time. And IF you WERE implying someone was a thief I will lobby to make that time permanent.

Waiting to read your response.

 

Names were never mentioned but maybe the poster knows more than I do. I need some enlightenment. Besides, calling someone a cheater obviously has no repercussions now does it?