IDNR Giving up on Sparta

As per ATA minutes recently published:

President Taylor requested that Executive Director Lynn Gipson give an update on the World Shooting and Recreational Complex (WSRC).

He stated that Art Ashbrook was released from his duties as Executive Director of the WSRC. The reason for Mr. Ashbrook’s termination is unknown, and the Illinois Department of National Resources (IDNR) has no immediate plans to replace him.

Possible privatization of the shooting sports aspects of the WSRC are being considered by the IDNR.

Is the IDNR trying to wash it's hands of this or at least not throw away more money by not hiring another executive director? Only going by the ATA minutes.

 

Could be death of Sparta Grand... back to O HI O anyone??
GO BUCKEYES

 

Sure would have liked to be in that IDNR meeting.

Hey guys, what are we going to do about that shooting place we own in sparta?

Yeah, I was just thinking about that while playing golf the other day. We sure put a ton of money into that place. I thought we were going to see a lot more money coming out of it. Weren't we supposed to see the money just pouring into our state while this shoot or whatever they call it was going on.

Damn straight, they used to get over four thousand shooters in one day at the last place. Where was that other place those gun people went?

Vandalia I think. Yeah that was it, Vandalia, just outside Dayton Ohio. Something like three or four thousand people for just ONE DAY.

How many of those gun nuts came to that big shoot they have here in August? At that place we built in sparta.What do they call it, the grind or something like that.

The Grand, they call it the Grand.

OK, the grand then. How many people came to that on their biggest day shoot?

Last year? 1600 or something like that.

No, really, how many people came and spent money in our state for that big days shoot?

1600, or something around that. Not sure but I could go on a thing they call trapshooter.com and ask. Those people on there always talk about how great sparta is or how it's going to get better, or some other pie in the sky ideas.

Well I don't give a rats ass about how it's supposed to get better. What do they think this is, Field of Dreams? We build it and they will come? Well guess what boys? We built it and it and it looks to me like they ain't coming.

OK, OK, settle down. How are we going to save some money on this place?

Hey, I have an idea. Just thinking out loud but what if we get rid of the salary for that guy Ashbrook? It's not really much when you consider how much we put into that place but it's a start.

HEY, I know, lets privatize it. See if some company or even a private citizen whats to own it. We can dump it on them. Let them charge more to try and get a return on their investment. Gets us out from under.

I don't know about a private citizen buying it. I heard some family dumped a ton of money, their own money, into prizes or something and after a few years they stopped that. Didn't bring in near as many people they thought it would.

Why don't we try and get that big group the ATE or whatever they call themselves to rent it from us.

That's ATA

Whatever, ATE, ATA, KMA, I don't care.

Well, all I know is that place sure isn't working out the way we hoped. Just who's idea was it to build that place anyway?

That doesn't matter now. All that matters is we have to figure out some way to unload that place.

That meeting probably never really happened. Just thinking out loud.

Then again......

Flyersarebest

 

Sounds like Wisconsin by some of the posters on the other site.

 

Titles not true, yet. Maybe next year.

 

http://thesouthern.com/sports/outdo...cle_03b1ef0c-2579-565a-b87a-07bdf68328d4.html

Looks to me like IDNR is investing in Sparta, hiring a Marketing Director and looking for a new Executive Director who has experience with shooting sports.

 

I can't see anything there.

 

We're from the government and we're here to help.

Flyersarebest

 

I wonder how long it will take for Moe, Larry, Curly, or Shemp to post something on that old site, crying about how I "bashed" the ATA.

Then will come the usual, "I know the ATA isn't perfect but it's all we have" CRAP.

Anything these lurkers can do to get people to come over here and read my stuff is appreciated so, THANKS IN ADVANCE boys.

Flyersarebest

 

I would like to know what the previous guy that held that job did WRONG.

Usually, when someone gets canned the boys upstairs think his business plan was FLAWED.

YA THINK?

Flyersarebest

 

You have to realize that the Sparta complex is State Government owned and most times you donot get the brightest lights running the show. Illinois put a lot of money into this site for them to unload it at a great financial loss might create some havock within the State Government, but that being said governments have been known to rid themselves of a yearly financial burden for very little return on their original investment dollar. Of course this is just my opinion

 

You can search Ashbrook IDNR online. Some things were alleged. There was a threatened lawsuit and some other issues. Not sure of the outcome.

It may be someone would rather go fishing.

 

Flyers it must be nice to spout your venom without worry of reprimand. Your being a moderator and all, who watches over you. Do you really think the other site cares what you say, according to my friends over there most don't even know who you are, sorry.

Lefty

 

Lefty,

You have to admit that is some funny stuff. Like he said maybe that meeting never happened. lol
________________________________________________

As per the article there were a few strange statements.

Getting the word out, that’s the challenge.

Yeah, we were going to go to Vandalia this year. Thanks for the heads up.
________________________________________________

This quote is the whopper:

The IDNR was ravaged by budget cuts during the Rod Blagojevich administration.

I get that Blagojevich is a felon but he did spend around $40 million for the site. Maybe it doesn't count if you are an anti gun liberal trying to buy votes.

 

That took longer than I thought.

Flyersarebest

 

From V10

3,162 participants shot at the Grand
3,490 classified (edited)
1,813 paid to shoot the GAH
1,647 shot the GAH

 

You don't have to say your sorry.

Flyersarebest

 

I think I'll apply for that ED position. Frank Rively informed me all what not to do-bobblehead comes to mind!

 

The powers that be are afraid if a man like Frank Rively would get involved transparency would soon become the norm and thats not what they want ... The BOD and or EC do not feel they have an obligation to anyone other than each other and they do not like people who ask questions or question their authority ... The ATA was one time a members organization and if you were involved back then you can see and feel the difference compared to how its done today ... If the person who gets the job of ED is not a suck up, getting the job will be one thing, keeping it will something else ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Couple questions for Rosey:


"3490 registered" does that mean 3490 shooters classified?


"3162 participants". Is that the total number of shooters that entered at least one event during the 2014 Grand American Tournament. In other words 328 shooters classified but did not shoot any events?


You state "1813 paid entries in the GAH, 1647 shot the GAH". Did we really have 166 shooters pay but not shoot the GAH? Is that normal for the GAH? That would be a bit over 9% of the paid entries that declined to shoot.


These numbers are important as they are being used as the basis to make decisions regardng what sort of incentives the ATA should use to create a positive impact on Grand attendance.

 

I hate to be the one to agree with the fellows that were sitting around the table but cash obviously won't do it. More and more we see that venues and dates are a substitutable good.

Didn't the ATA hire someone to attend all the nice shoots in the south and west and act as a liason? A new title was created?

 

Flyer I have been thinking about this

Say you are sorry........

 

Don, I had to change my post. 3,490 classified, but 3,162 registered targets. so, I assume some classified but didn't pay or shoot. I know a lot of "shoppers" wanted their pins even at Vandalia, so they would classify but not shoot. It was also mentioned that the rain that week may have deterred some from paying and shooting even though they classified or squadded.
3,162 actually shot targets as I read it.

You'd have to ask V10 for sure. He supplied the info.

 

What is going to happen to Sparta when they ban the use of a K-80 ???

The 'other site' has determined that shooting on a squad with a K-80 is unsafe. And everyone on the squad and the score-keeper is in danger.

A K-80 can transform a shell, that in other shotguns would be harmless, into some type of high-explosive. The shock-wave is so destructive that if you are on the grounds, and plan on having more children, it will cause them to be born naked. And most of the score-keepers are young and may have children ... so the settlement of a legal action for allowing the use of such a dangerous thing, could result in the ATA paying for millions of dollars in children's clothes.

They may be able to get the 'Pro-18' GAH winners to shoot something else .... but the A-A shooters may not want to. So the attendance is sure to take a hit .... and what a shame it will be that free shotguns caused the demise of the greatest shooting complex the country has ever seen.

 

They cannot eliminate the K-80 from competetion, only make them all squad together to protect the innocent ... There was a "POLL" and most kids are born naked any way though some had "Dots" on their heads and a funny smell to them kind of like Goat crap or Camel dung ... The Germans are blameing the shell makers for putting gun powder in the shells, which has been found to be explosive upon detonation, or it could also be the primers in some cases ... Its all speculation and they won't know anything for sure until 2020 if all goes well ... Until then be safe and stay low ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Appears you were wrong when responding. Guess that ain't new!

They may be here too!

 

More speculation by the speculatives and on and on we go, makes a person wonder will the good warm weather help.

 

The weather for the GAH was terrible. It was windy, raining and cold. There were whole squads that did not show, and I saw few full squads.

 

Thanks Lord Maker, that helps to make some sense of the numbers. A little more than 33 full squads of shooters paying but not shooting in one of the most prestigious handicap events of the year just didn't sound right. I know when I was younger I would shoot rain or shine. Now when the rains come I'm more likely to sip some "shine" then shoot!

 

You're welcome Don, see you @ Lakeland sometime.

 

I was going to write a few paragraphs in response but I deleted everything except this.

If you go back and look at the first sentence I said I would have liked to be in on that IDNR meeting. The IDNR meeting.

Thanks for proving my point though. SOME people just can't stand anyone saying ANYTHING about the ATA if it isn't "how great thou art".

You don't fit into that group do you? That group doesn't care one iota what the topic might be or what the post is about. That is secondary. What they only see is are the initials ATA and by God the writer better not say ANYTHING that might question that holy association.

News flash. I can question any associations leaders I care to.

As far as some of those "the ATA is almighty" guys on that old site crying about how I bashed the ATA , please tell me what they said. I don't bother looking over there anymore.

And if any of you guys are here and lurking, speak up. Maybe you can get yourself a barrel decal.

Flyersarebest

 

On this forum you can question the leaders.
Like the header at the top says.

The only open forum about the sport of American Trapshooting.

For the record the original post only mentions the ATA as the source of the information. It is from the official minutes.

Who doesn't enjoy reading about the IDNR?

 

Searched Ashbrook resigning:

SPRINGFIELD – A top administrator at the Illinois Department of Natural Resources said Friday he was forced to resign last week because of his doctor-ordered participation in professional fishing tournaments while on sick leave. (AP)

 

I wonder if the guys fishing partner had the letters MD after his name.

Flyersarebest

 

SPARTA — A former employee at the state-run World Shooting and Recreational Complex near Sparta alleges her supervisor attempted to force her to perform a strip tease on top of a picnic table last year during a party of uniformed state officials.
Christine Meggs' refusal to strip cost her a job at the complex, she alleges in a complaint filed with two government agencies.
Meggs, 41, who was a stripper for 16 years, has filed complaints of sexual harassment and retaliation with the Illinois Department of Human Rights. Officials with the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission investigated and later dismissed the complaint because they were unable to determine whether there were violations of federal laws.
However, Meggs received approval from the EEOC to pursue a lawsuit against the Illinois Department of Natural Resources, which operates the complex.
The commission's approval is necessary to pursue legal action for violations of the federal Civil Rights Act.

Participation is important at the IDNR. No fishing---stripping yes!

 

I had given up on Sparta, but with this new added live entertainment, I may have to reconsider! Beats added money any day!

 

http://www.bnd.com/2014/07/11/3297815/former-employee-at-sparta-shooting.html

 

LOL, the IDNR trying to come up with ways to make a little more money at the complex possibly? LOL

HAP

 

Maybe you could call this, thinking outside the box!

 

She could be famous if they would post her picture ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Think of the time it would take to count all those $1.00 bills.

Flyersarebest

 

If the INDR wants more money from the Sparta complex and if the ATA were to agree then it would become more expensive for the shooter which in my opinion could lead to less shooters competing in the events at the Sparta complex.

 

The World Shooting & Recreational Complex has been on the radar screen of such watchdog groups as Illinois Policy and Government Reform for several years. It reportedly cost $31.5 million to build with an additional $18 million for roads, water, sewer and other improvements.

Actually the State did tout it as a money-maker as stated by State Representative Dan Reitz who said it “will be the only state park in the state of Illinois that makes money.”

In June 2005, the director of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources (IDNR), estimated the complex would bring the state about $50 million to $100 million in economic development each year, once up and running.

I think everyone had unrealistic expectations. It’s a wonderful facility and I enjoyed visiting it each year, but it has lost money every year of its operation; to the tune of about $1.5 million on average, each year. The last figures I saw were for 2012 when reportedly the facility lost $1,867,785. The worst year was 2007 when it was reported that the loss was $2,685,807. I'd like to see figures for 2013 & 2014 if anyone has them.

Who knows how much longer the State will continue to fund the Complex, and that's what is so worrisome to many of us. Sure hope there's a Plan B but sure hope it is never needed.

WSRC Annual Losses

2006 – $552,976

2007 – $2,685,807

2008 – $1,521,706

2009 – $1,437,283

2010 – $1,523,421

2011 – $1,633,498

2012 – $1,867,785

2013 – $

2014 – $

 

Heck, I was just half kidding about what might have been said in that meeting.

With those numbers being thrown around I would be willing to bet a buck one of the things I wrote WAS said.

Just who's idea was it to build that place anyway?

Flyersarebest

 

I really don't give a rats ... if the "other site" cares what I say or think. They BETTER care about the numbers History Buff posted. If things keep going in the direction they are going the one word they will hear from the IDNR is,

SORRY

Flyersarebest

 

The article quoted by jhunts says:

The party was attended by about 20 employees of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources, Meggs said, who were at the complex following the popular Grand American shooting competition.

I would think that a big party thrown by the IDNR immediately following the Sparta shoot may have ATA execs in attendance. All others may have had to buy tickets.

 

Reputation is everything, the State of Illinois has always been able to take gold and make fertilizer out of it ... The WRSC losing over 10 Million + (7 accounted for years) should not come as a surprise to anyone, its the Nature of that Beast ... Maybe Obama could float them a loan rather than give foreign aid to country's that want to wipe us off of the map ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

If and I say 'IF' the State of Illinois decided to close the Sparta complex would the ATA have any problems removing the equipment (traps, voice releases) or any other ATA owned equipment (which I would expect the ATA would have to prove they owned) from the Sparta site. Would the ATA have a claim on the traps the INDR replaced one per year on a yearly basis as per the agreement for the use of the traps during the year

 

My guess it would follow the norm. The country runs on lawyers. It would cost us to get our own equipment.

 

What happened in the IDNR meeting?

 

The Front 9

The Back 9



Gives a whole new meaning to "Breaking a Hundred" doesn't it?

The worse you play the better your Handi-Cap. Sound familiar?

Flyersarebest

 

Ummmm, Oldphart ~~~

I'll bet the ATA has a plan "B" already in place...

How else could they think of having the ATA Hall of Fame Museum building there ?

I am sure the Trustees of the THOF gave this much thought before spending all that money for that building without some reassurance they will be there for a good, long time.

Pretty hard (and expensive) to up and move that building I would bet .

 

When they moved it to Sparta the building stayed where it was.
The only expense would be for the moving company to pack everything up and move it.

Flyersarebest

 

The Martins made a substancial donation to the HOF building in Sparta ... That donation pretty much put the program in high gear ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

wpt
How much was that donation?

 

No Martin, No Movin?

Flyersarebest

 

I do not have all of the particulars and can only go by what I was told by a person who claims to of been there when it happend ... The Martins are very generous and genuine really good people ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Somebody in the trapshooting world has this information.

 

Family Guy I found this on traphof.org

Hall of Fame Sustaining Sponsors
Bill & LeeAnn Martin
have committed to giving
ONE MILLION DOLLARS
to the new museum!

 

Thats the amount I was told ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Was that enough to get them into the HOF?

 

Brad's friend,
Are you sure that the ATA has thought ahead enough to have a plan "B"

 

This is the primary plan?

 

when they left Vandalia they could have gone to Millington Tn. and had the North half of the Naval Base there but they claimed there wasn't enough
motel space in close proxcimity to Millington. Memphis being 20 miles away.
I end up staying a Perryville Mo. 45 miles from Sparta plus the Naval base would have cost them 1.00 a year for an extended contract and they had the buildings readily available. And the Naval base had all the blacktop parking
that you could ask for. Hindsight is a great thing.

Mac

 

So, your point is ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Not a mistake posting this. I just like to read lefty saying he's "sorry"

Flyersarebest

 

"Graceland", home and final resting place of the Real King ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

We're straying off course again, but Graceland is great

 

You have to admit, in his later years he did look like a Trapshooter

Flyersarebest

 

Thank You, thank you very much

 

Graceland...thought provoking.

What if they moved Graceland to Sparta?

 

If the IDNR thought they could make a nickel they might try

 

As per watchdog group Illinois Policy and Govt reform report:
The Problem
The World Shooting and Recreation Complex (WSRC) in Sparta, Illinois was completed in 2006 at a construction cost of $31.5 million (as well as another $18 million for road, water, and sewer improvement). The 1,600-acre facility includes 746 RV campsites, 120 trap shooting fields, and a 34,000 square foot events center.
The state-funded facility came fully loaded with high expectations. In August 2004, State Representative Dan Reitz said the World Shooting and Recreation Complex “will be the only state park in the state of Illinois that makes money.” In June 2005, the director of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources (IDNR), estimated the complex would bring the state about $50 million to $100 million in economic development each year, once up and running.
Has the Complex lived up to its hype? Not exactly. In fact, the Complex’s total projected revenue collection from fiscal year 2004 through fiscal year 2011 falls short of the total amount the state appropriated to the Complex by more than $1.5 million. The table below features the state expenditures for the Complex’s operation and maintenance as well as its imprest account, which is used to handle minor disbursements, such as awards for competitions. The categories of revenue for the complex include the WSRC Event Center/Mall/Tent etc., event income, concessions, camping related, sponsorship/advertising, shooting disciplines (individuals), shooting disciplines (groups), and gift certificates.
The expected benefit of increased economic activity has also not come to fruition. After the World Shooting and Recreation Complex opened in the summer of 2006, the raw sales tax data from the City of Sparta shows a slight decline in sales tax receipts in following years. When the tax receipts are adjusted for inflation, the decline becomes more dramatic, dropping below 2002 levels.
Our Solution
Projects such as the Sparta World Shooting and Recreation Complex are often touted for their potential to stimulate economic development, but they are rarely analyzed to see whether or not they have lived up to their boosters’ high expectations. The Sparta World Shooting and Recreation Complex should be taken off of the state dole, and similar projects should be avoided in the future.

Why This Works
State and local government should focus on delivering core services, especially in difficult economic times. Rather than attempting to spur economic development with complex and costly projects, the state government should focus on improving the business climate via tax and regulatory reform. By decreasing the cost of doing business in Illinois, the state can attract entrepreneurs and businesses that will drive sustainable job creation and economic growth.

 

Wisconsin has a new place don't they? Seems like they have the right climate. Not near as hot.

 

http://www.witrapshooters.com/
Check out the website Rocketfan. Hope you like it.

 

Ken,
That looks like a great place, hope to make it back there this summer as we are wandering around aimlessly ... I am very impressed by what they got accomplished with all of the crap that was being tossed around back then ... Wisconsin chesse and a 6 pack be like a 7 course meal ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bill, If you are planning to make it for the State shoot and need a spot to camp contact
Bill Simonar
18821 Rosecrans Road
Denmark, WI 54208
Cell: (920) 655-4759
wjsshoot@aol.com


He handles all camping for the shoot week.
It sure would be nice to see you again. It has been some time since we shot together in Vegas.

 

Sparta looks like a great place. Too far to go to haul my family for just the weekend.

 

From the number of shooters that actually SHOT THE GAH , you ain't alone brother.

Flyersarebest

 

my point is, why go to an anti gun state when you can go to the most pro gun state there is don't get me wrong I love southern Il. but their state government sucks rocks
I will continue to support the ATA regardless of where they go as long as it is in the U.S. no more overseas travel for me at 70.

Mac

 

How many traps?

 

Hah. Old thread from the time the IDNR hired Monica. Remember the stripper party days?

 

Kind of fun to watch isn't it?