Is Bank Selection Fair?

Doesn't it always seem certain shooters seem to get the preferred banks at some clubs. I realize pre-squadding amounts to some significant income but that leaves the less desirable banks open for the less fortunate. Is that fair or is drawing banks at the beginning of the shoot day much fairer?

 

I like the ability to presquad.

If while pre-squading I get to pick my bank that is a bonus.

The Big Dogs have been getting the preferred banks for years so I'm OK with the rest of us getting to pick.

 

There was a time when your entry at the grand didn't have a choice of shooting banks. You waited until your name showed on the squad sheets posted & then shot where ever you were designated. I'm sure someone had a way of manipulating the system to getting choice traps but the major majority of average shooters got to shoot where they were placed.
Someone still ended up winning and "the cream always rises to the top" The best shooter will win!

 

If I am going to a shoot with some friends and wish to shoot together we will pre-squad, if I go alone I will pick my squads when I arrive.

 

Shooters may get away with the preferred bank system at the Grand but certainly not here in Tucson at either the Autumn Grand of our Spring Grand. Bank numbers are posted every morning for all the squad rotations.

HAP

 

When possible, drawing the banks in the morning is the only way to go.

 

Hap are you saying there aren't a Special Few getting preferred banks in Tucson?

If that is the case Tucson is the exception and not the rule.

Enjoy the Spring Grand.

 

"Is that fair or is drawing banks at the beginning of the shoot day much fairer?"

Do you remember my 'story' I told on TS dot com about the Kentucky State Shoot a few years ago ????

On the Friday 'Sandbaggers Handicap', we 'drew' the bank straight down the main walk to the trap-line. The bank everyone wanted to shoot. We start to report to our bank .... and there was an announcement that there was some kind of 'error', and our squad had to trade banks with someone who hated this story, who sent me an instant PM, who said he had nothing to do with this 'error', and seen no problem with this 'error' only moving the two squads. Not a total 'error' just him and 'his squad' sending us to BFE, and they shot the 'good bank'.

There is also the story of someone I know camping out on his computer, waiting to pre-squad at the Fall Handicap. That didn't work well either.

So .... I guess to answer "what is fair" .... would depend on who you ask ....

 

Ollie I never liked bank selection, or squadding w/friends, I liked the way it used to be done at the earlier Ohio State Shoot, they squadded you, you had to look at the sheets posted around the entry building, to find out where and with whom you were shooting with.

They used strictly your yardage, all shooters were grouped together by yardage, I remember that Gene Harbage was involved in this.

You got what you got and that was it. The shooter never made any selection. The girls working in the office did most of it., You were nothing but a Card w/your yardage, they shuffled them like a deck of cards.

When I was on the 27yd line there were just a few of us. I do not think there was a dozen of us back then in Ohio. I was one of the early ones, I think Gene Laurisky was one of the first in the central Ohio area, he would not shoot any 16yd targets if the wind was blowing he did not want to lower his average.
Dr.longshot

 

When I shot the Kentucky State shoot in the 1970s, there were Federal Pigeon Load empties on the ground, no writing or printing on the sides of them, but the shell had the PIGEON stamped in the Brass.
You could always tell the Federal Pigeon Loads, plus the wads did not go very far either, they would fly up or bounce on the ground in front of the 16yd line.

Now you see Sporting Clay 1300fps shells on the line, I got a bunch of them dumpster diving for Remington Hulls at the Cardinal, over last few years for reloading hulls.
Dr.longshot

 

Adjustments made at Elysburg this year will eliminate the bad bank. I still would prefer the take what you get motto.

 

wishbone, yes, Tucson is an exception! Even the clubs officers that run the shoots shoot all the different banks just like everyone else does!

HAP

 

Hap,
That is good news.

Usually we hear that the All Americans get a choice of banks, times etc.

 

That may be true at the Grand American and other places but not here in Tucson. Bank numbers are drawn each day and if there's a bad bank and there isn't, it belongs to the squad number. You're correct, top shooters know the best sun times to be shooting during the day and there's nothing illegal about selecting it either. Top shots are pretty good pre-squadding at the right times but it depends on the first squads filling up also.

Bank numbers should be drawn for all ATA shooting where All-American points are awarded.

HAP

 

Tucson is becoming known for running shoots the way it should be done, or they would never draw the crowds they get ... Nothing
"Magical" about it, just do it right and by the rules ... Give people what they pay for and all will be well ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

All you have to do is look at Presquad and see all of the "Saved by Management" and the other trick is to skip entire squads. They skip over a couple of squads that they have saved for "Special People" without the masses realizing it. Look at the State Shoot in Wyoming, Utah and the Vernal shoots. When they went up some squads were not there at all, and now some have posted the squad when it's full. The "Top Dogs" and affluent shooters have been getting this special treatment since I started in the 70's. The drawing of trap assignments are usually done behind the scenes and just posted for us to see. The Special shooters don't shoot Championship targets on the worst fields, like ever! What a lucky coincidence that seems to be. This is not Presquad doing this, it's the Clubs themselves. My hat is off to Tucson for being fair and doing it right. A way to increase your chances is if you know how many squads are starting together, just squad that number before or after the Big Dogs that are squadded as it goes up. Then you will shoot the same banks of traps they do and believe me they know all the advantages and so does the club who take such good care of their buddies.

 

The "Saved by Management" should be eliminated completely to prove and show there are no favorites being played ... When the Spring Grand was being hosted back in Phx a shooter came up and asked me why there were so many squads that were not open but taken by some individuals ... I asked the person running the squads and squading and he told me that a bunch of people pulled multiple squads and were holding them ... I instucted him to delete those squads being held as well as the squads they were on to be held until they talked to me ... I put a bunch of squad numbers in a jar and told them they can pick a number or don't shoot, talk about some upset puppies ... They picked numbers and were spread out all over the place, not even shooting together at that point ... I was told that they won't be back and I told them that I am glad they felt that way because I was going to ask them to not come back, it being their choice made it a lot easier on everyone involved ... Tucson does it right from what I have been told, that's because they are shooters and treat shooters the way they want to be treated ... I can see there being a need for chair shooters to be close by rather than hike to the end of the trap line but other than that there should be no reason for holding squads unless there is some hanky panky going on ... JMHO ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You shooters at the Southern Grand, Read the above post from PerazziMX2000, did you notice squads held by Management? Squads not available? Not Pre-Squadding, but is there a squadding problem at these major shoots like those explained above? Is the Silver Dollar doing this? Is the Silver Dollar guilty of any of those practices talked about above, you guys are down there give your opinion of what is happening.

Do you feel the practices of Tuscon are being followed, or should be followed at the Silver Dollar?

Does the post by Hap re: Tuscon being done at all gun clubs holding major shoots? Is their club holding squads by management their practice?

Lots of shooters would like to hear first hand from shooters at the Silver Dollar's Southern Grand.

RJ Stuart may know as they usually handle the shoot procedures, dictated to him from Silver Dollar Management.

No ax being ground here, just their shoot squadding procedures for all shooters information.
DLS

 

I've seen a whole lot of crying when there were no squads on the first flight and they had to go earlier than they wanted.

Best thing ever happened when someone came up with the idea of rotating banks and drawing them just before starting time. Another good idea was to fill squads on a first come first serve basis. If you have a full squad you get the first opening for a full squad.

 

I did the pre squading at the Phoenix club for a few years. It was amazing how many good buddies I had at that time. What I did was as the pre squad envelopes came in the mail they were stacked up according to date received. Then I would do the pre squading. I tried to give the shooters what they ask for if it was possible.
I quit attending the Fla. Shoot because of the squading problem, you had to be one of the boys to get a decent squad and time.
At Phoenix we also started pulling a pill in morning of the shoot to establish the starting trap. If the shooters waited to long to sign up they missed being able to play the money. We shut down the options with the first shot being fired. We would still acomadate every shooter that wanted to shoot they just could not play the options.
It is human nature to try and game the system to mentally try and get an edge on the competition. Clubs just should stay neutral in the endeavor.

 

I forgot we did save squads for management, but they were for any one that came in late for the shoot not for prefered people. Some flew in and wanted to shoot on that day.

 

Will Ohio ever draw for banks?

 

Those of you at the Southern Grand how was bank selection done? Were there any squads held back? and some not filled because of hold back by management?
Dr.longshot

 

Gary...I'm still here at the SG.Bank selection is drawn at 4 pm each day, if you squad in the morning, you MUST take the first available or wait till later.
I was on every bank this week and so were all the big dogs.I'v never seen any favours beening handed out.
I met oleolliedawg this week.

 

What 2 dogs said.

Lefty

 

Banks 2 and 5 seemed to be the preferred big dog banks this year. I seemed to miss them on bank 6!

 

I think when people watch the big dogs shoot they think those are the preferred banks because the big dogs can break the birds on any bank they draw.

 

I doubt you ever shot at the Silver Dollar!

 

So ollie, what were all the banks you shot on this year at the Southern Grand?

 

Gary, just got back from SG last night. First time I have attended that shoot. Banks were drawn and posted every night on the internet. Made it pretty simple. Saw no sign of preferential treatment. A friend of My Bother-in-law is a wheelchair shooter. He managed to shoot on bank 6, ( He dubbed it the dungeon), on the golf side 3 days out of 3 days, but did manage to shoot one of the legs of the 200 singles event on Saturday, over on the gun club side. Seemed like maybe a little preferential treatment was due to him. I shot 400 targets on the gunclub side, and 200 targets on the golf side. Did not shoot that well myself, but had a great time. It is a very beautiful venue to shoot at. I would highly recommend anyone that likes to shoot ATA trap to put this on Their bucket list, especially shooters from the west. It is amazing how efficiently they can get so many shooters through that facility. Just My 2 cents.

 

Ollie, I don't think the green guy will ever get that far south. I would have thought the lady with you would have rec'd preferential treatment.

 

I'm still at the SD, and I shot both sides of the road, just like everyone else.The only time I shot banks 2 and 5 was for the singles champ...

 

Since this stupid cataract on my shooting eye is giving me fits I felt it best to spend as much time as possible on the practice trap trying anything to overcome it's effects. It did offer me plenty of time to walk the line, carry wife's shell bag and work on #2 son's new found expensive habit-trapshooting. Nothing better than watching an 8 yo boy breaking his first 20/25 and Tammy beating Deb Ohye in a shootoff for runnerup in a handicap event.

I'll be back!

 

I think that Michigan draws the starting bank in the morning. So bank 6 is now number one. Then bank 7 is 2 and bank 8 is 3 and bank 1 is 4 and 2 is 5.

Seems easy enough to figure out and I think it is hard to pick a bank or figure what is the starting bank unless you sign up after the bank drawing but then who knows when you are going to shoot. motordoc


seems fair to me

 

I like the way Michigan does it too.

 

Look at Presquad for the Kansas State Shoot. Check out Harlan Campbell and where he's shooting. It's post 4 and bank #6 for all events and he's on several different squad numbers but he's on bank #6 for every one. You don't have to be bright to see what squad to go on to shoot his banks especially when the banks are all posted ahead of time on Presquad. He did nothing wrong and can shoot where he pleases but wouldn't drawing bank assignments randomly each day be more fair?

 

Your post and squad number should be all you can select, banks should be drawn everyday randomly ... Can always resquad and take the luck of the draw a second time for $20.00 ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Every time someone posts how unfair it is to criticize top shooters when they work so hard at their game they somehow deserve to take home our weekly grocery money I almost puke. The playing field is seldom fair when getting the preferred banks is their modus operandi!