ATA Hall of Fame IDNR Lease Sparta HOF & Ownership

Lease....

 

Family Guy,

Thank you!

Were modifications or amendments to the July 15, 2011 Agreement drawn up after the September, 2015 closing of the WSRC?

 

You can search that using the word mou. Wtf phantom. Is your keyboard broke?

 

Family Guy,

I apologize, I wrote the IDNR/ATA agreement date. The question should read, "were there modifications or amendments to the June 1, 2014 to December 31, 2039 IDNR/THOF Lease Agreement drawn up after the September 2015 closing of the WSRC?"

Thank you.

 

"said Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum and Offices to be owned by DNR."
That is quite a clause. It could be interpreted to mean that the DNR owns everything in the museum. A museum is not a building, it is a collection of things housed in a building.
And, the definitions section adds further in (B) "Premises" means the Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum and Offices building, other impovements and the land occupied by the Lessee and owned by DNR as described in Section 2, to be used for the Business Operation.
So, did the ATA just give the Hall of Fame Museum to the State of Illinois? That is the way it reads. Nicely done ATA!
Jake

 

Damn good post!

Say, what do you make of Section 21?

 

Phantom, Sorry it took me a while. I had to unblock you since you have spent a reasonable amount of time insulting me as you often don't like my opinions.

But, in answer to your interesting question focusing on a very interesting clause (which I had not noticed).
Section 21 is pretty clear that the Lessor (ATA) is to employ (pay for and manage) an employee to run the joint, for Illinois.

"...The Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum shall be operated by an employee authorized to act and represent Lessee [Illinois] in all matters pertaining to the operation and management of the museum. ..."

And, the ATA gets to pay this employee, acting to represent Illinois, with specific terms as to how that employee should be dressed and act.
Damn. That just confirms who "owns" the museum.
Once again, well done ATA!
Jake

 

Hmmm...we have had this lease up on several threads. None of us caught this. I have phone call into HB. Big stuff here.

 

Jake,

Thank you for the reply. I do, in fact, hold your opinions in high regard. Sadly, I am a notorious asshole and, as my father would say, an argumentative Bolshevik. He once said that I would "argue with a tree."

I thought you might appreciate Section 21, and I am glad you were kind enough to take you time to render an opinion. The ATA seems to have slipped its neck into a bit of a noose. Would you agree?

Best regards,

The P

 

I see lots of folks slip their necks into nooses (especially recently) who then just walk. You know, what I am talking about.
But that lease is a flat out sell out. And, the only explanation is Pull LLC was a land deal rip off financially benefiting the folks who made the deal. They control the game and apparently are going to keep control.
I hate watching our wonderful and historic sport slowly die. All for greed and ego of a few who apparently make "executive orders" for their own benefit. Seems to be a trend.
Sigh. Jake

 

#26 has me very concerned.

At one time I had thought that they extended the time limits for the THOF to vacate the premises.

I see 45 days listed which I believe was in the ORIGINAL contract presented to the ATA, but a modification of what was 45 days was added to give the THOF 90 days to vacate, or anything left in the building would become the property of the State of Illinois.

I hope I have missed something here in the agreement.

Trust me, 45 days wouldn't even begin to secure a site to store all those artifacts.

I am not positive but I believe the last Curator sought out the storage place when they vacated Vandalia, and making a record of all that was packed up and shipped to that location took a large amount of time.

Hope it never happens, but 45 days isn't going to cut it.

 

I just found that Family Guy had posted the 2011 Amended contract and it stated 120 for the removal of anything owned by the THOF or ATA.

What am I missing...Did someone (or am I reading this new one wrong) mess up and allow this wording of 45 days on the new agreement to slip by ?

Please correct me if I have missed something.

 

History Seeker, Jakearoo, HistoryBuff, The Phantom, (Merlo), and anyone else who cares I've been steaming about the HOF ever since August of 2009 when I went with Jack to present the OSTA and Cardinal's offer to have the HOF Museum move to the Cardinal Center. I knew that any group led by Jim Bradford would kill any offer but I made the trip anyhow. I kept letters and e-mails from various trustees between themselves talking about the offer and the response to that offer and I'm going to post them on a separate thread so you all can place names and events together.

Lynn Parsons, rest his sole, was the only Trustee that openly wanted to take our offer and as you read in his correspondence was really frustrated about the future of the HOF and Museum. I also have some of Kenny Ray's thoughts that he put to pen and paper about this and probably hasn't shared because he is to nice a guy. So as you read these don't think that the situation the Museum find's itself in today in 2019 was not warned about by concerned people back in 2009. Remember the names of the Trustees when blame is assigned, some are a lot more to blame than others.

I get this in order and start posting, not all at once as I have about 10 pages of stuff. Brad Dysinger

 

Sunshine is the best disinfectant. This is a website that prides itself in telling the truth.

 

According to this they would not need 45 days. It appears the museum may belong to Illinois. The museum would include artifacts.

 

In section 23 (D) it says "Both DNR and lessee shall have the right to terminate this Agreement without cause and at either party's sole discretion prior to the expiration date by giving ninety (180) days [yep, that's what it says.] advance written notice of termination to the other party.
So, there is obviously a typo here. But under any circumstances the DNR can terminate on 180 days notice. Arguably on 90. And remember, the employee who runs it runs it for them, the owners.
Gotta love those sharp as a tack folks at the ATA who negotiated and signed this deal.
Jake

 

Section 38, subsection (c) is certainly interesting.

 

When or if the ATA HOF group leaves will a museum will still be there?

When an item is donated to the museum, it is donated to the State of Illinois? The person running the museum is to represent the IDNR.

 

At the moment I have NO CLUE as to who is overseeing the Museum, OR if it open any time other that during the Grand weeks.

When ever we were headed south we would stop into the museum in Vandalia and that wonderful girl, Tami Daniel was always there to greet us.

And it was even a real nice surprise to see our old friend Lynn Parsons sitting there chatting with her. Lynn spent more time at that museum than a lot of people knew.

We sure do miss that opportunity today.

Tami on the left, Lynn "Doc" Parsons, and my wife.

That day we walked in there here were Tami and Doc, changing light bulbs, now that was dedication to that museum.

 

Then again maybe the signer new exactly what was in the lease agreement. I assume he could under stand what he read.
Did the H.O.F. board not have legal advice on what they were doing? Or was this another Pull 2112 deal? Roger C.

 

I was just going to say the minute taker of the 2012 PULL meeting sort of "Forgot" to include the numbers 2012 and only put into the minutes PULL LLC.

Now that is what lead to the investigations by some to seek further information.

I was advised that the minute taker is also an attorney and could NOT have possibly forgot those numbers...OK, I didn't bite.

Even after repeated notes to Gipson to have the minutes amended to include 2012, nothing ever changed.

Now, how in the hell do they expect anyone to put faith in this organization we all loved so much for many years ?

 

It was just brought to my attention that #21 should be looked into in it's entirety. Wow, something smells that the State can dictate to the Trapshooting Hall of Fame how they will hire, and run this MUSEUM that is owned by the State.

Definition of a MUSEUM, not necessarily the building that houses artifacts, but the artifacts themselves:

For other uses, see Museum (disambiguation).

A museum (/mjuːˈziːəm/ mew-ZEE-əm; plural museums or, rarely, musea) is an institution that cares for (conserves) a collection of artifacts and other objects of artistic, cultural, historical, or scientific importance. Many public museums make these items available for public viewing through exhibits that may be permanent or temporary.[1] The largest museums are located in major cities throughout the world, while thousands of local museums exist in smaller cities, towns and rural areas. Museums have varying aims, ranging from serving researchers and specialists to serving the general public. The goal of serving researchers is increasingly shifting to serving the general public.

MY concern, although I hope I am completely wrong on this, would be...Considering the State of Illinois OWNES the THOF MUSEUM, and dictates to the THOF on how they will hire employees, do they believe they would also own the contents of this MUSEUM ???

Any legal authorities on here that would like to give an opinion (of course not binding) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

Jake's opinion probably holds. Does that lead to litigation? It could. Section 27 deals with jurisdiction, but I have not been able to find reference to remedies, or penalties, or settlements. Maybe the ATA can afford a lengthy court battle with the State of Illinois.

We all know that the ATA/THOF gave the building to the State. If the state wants to play hardball, things could get ugly.

I hope Jake comes back in on this thread.

The ATA/EC has boxed itself into a very blind canyon. If individual members ever had to testify, rats would start jumping ship.

The cancer has metastasized. It won't be long before one of the Bad Actors drops a dime. Oh, watch your back! There are Bad Actors here. Benedict Arnold comes to mind. You know the old adage, "Stay close to your friends. Stay closer to your enemies."

Respectfully,

The P

 

Just remember,

They keep saying it is two separate organizations..

ATA, and THOF stand all by themselves.

IF this is so, why is Bradford so insistent on charging fees to the ATA shooters to raise his billions ?

Let the THOF raise their own money without ATA intervention.

 

In a fight the State of Illinois could, and I expect would, take the position that they own the "Museum" which would certainly include the contents. Based on the Definitions Section (B) and Paragraph 21 as discussed above (and probably other sections as well if carefully reviewed), the contract reads that way. And Illinois would effectively argue that was the original intent as any decent lawyer for the ATA would have been specific in the contract and carved out that the contents of the Museum were not part of the agreement and would always belong to the ATA or its successor in interest if those contents were not supposed to be included in the "ownership" of "The Museum."

If I were advising the ATA, at this point, I would see if there was a means of registering each and every individual item in the Museum in the sole name and ownership of the ATA. But even if there was a way to do that (Which there may not be as chattels, other than cars and things which are licensed, generally do not have any kind of registry. Possibly there could be some protection under trademark laws.) the State of Illinois could, and probably would, take the position that the later registration or trademarking of the items in the Museum in the name of the ATA was a direct attempt to violate the original contract signed with Illinois.
That contract is problematic, to say the least, if the ATA ever gets sideways with Illinois.

And Phantom, you asked if that leads to litigation. That is a fight the ATA should probably not initiate as they are in a weak position for many reasons, not just the contract itself. I mean the entire grounds for the Grand are on some weird loan deal from Illinois. They hold all the cards.
Jake

 

I have had one of our illustrious (and smart) founders ask me to be sure about the terms Lessee and Lessor. I swear I did, and do, know those terms in a legal context. None the less, I confused them above.
A Lessee is the party paying the rent. The Lessor is the owner of the property. The employee in Paragraph 21 who runs the Museum will run it for the benefit of the Lessee. That is for the ATA.

That does not change the primary problem in the lease in the preamble (the final "Whereas") stating "said Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum and Offices to be owned by DNR." (Emphasis added.) This is repeated in Definitions Section (B) defining Premesis. And, I do not see any carve out for the content of said "Museum."
I am a bit red faced to be so blatantly wrong about the employee in Section 21. But the main point remains.
Jake

 

The "employee" question, as a stand alone matter, is very interesting. The lessee must "employ sufficient and qualified personnel to operate the Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum in a businesslike manner." Has anybody ever seen the "job description?" If there was one, was it published? Who published it? The State of Illinois? or The ATA? How many applicants? Were there interviews? Is it a 40 hour per week job? Is it a year-round job? Are there benefits? Who handles the FICA, etc.? What is the average annual salary?

Most importantly, was the position filled in compliance with applicable Equal Opportunity Employment laws.

Is there a record of the history of employment for the position since the opening of the Museum? Were any of the employees related to any of the members of the families of the EC, BOD, or ED?

 

Or the Trustees?

 

I do know that there was an extensive record of each and every article within the former Museum logged before the artifacts went into storage. If memory serves me correctly, there was even an appraisal of items put into the records for insurance purposes.

After they were placed in the STATE owned Museum, I have no idea.

The main people who knew all of this were the former Curator, and the other was the gal (Tami Daniel) who actually was at the Museum in Dayton weekdays, and would open up on weekends for any visitors who contacted her.

I don't even know if there is insurance carried on these articles now.

I do also know that before the last curator in the Vandalia Museum had come on board, there was none.

HE, though his covering all the bases of his job, found this out.

I had thought that Bradford being the big businessman he was, would have known about the lack of insurance on the contents.

We sure do miss those people who kept that place and records so meticulous back in the day.

They CARED !!!

Are there any people doing this today ???????

I don't know, but somehow doubt it.

My crystal ball says this is all a disaster waiting to happen (if not already).

 

H.S. When you look at who is in charge, your confidence level drops considerably. For a business man Bradford, did not show much ability when being in charge of the building of the H.O.F. building. Makes one wonder where all of that building fund ended up, and still owing a considerable amount on a gifted building. Roger C.

 

Has anybody ever seen an annual operating budget for THOF building? Is the building is disrepair? Is there an hourly employee on duty at all times. Who writes the payroll checks? Who pays the person that writes the payroll checks?

You guys need to remember that certain pesky STATE and FEDERAL tax laws apply here. Is the HOF, or any of its assigns, breaking the law? There have to be RECORDS. If the records are being monitored by a State entity, there has to be some evidence. The has to be some accountability.

Many of you know a lot about the workings of the Hall of Fame. Why is it so damned hard to get answers to these very simple questions?

Has any one of you ever talked with an employee at the HOF building? Is the same person there day after day and year after year? Is the ATA/HOF honoring the terms of the lease agreement?

Is it possible as I suggested earlier, that nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has a freakin' clue? About ANYTHING?

Say it ain't so.

 

There is an employee to my knowledge. I think the sign says its open for all shoots and weekends if I remember correctly. I think the gentlemen that works at the HOF has been there quite some time.

 

Brad M,

That is good to know. At least something is being done to let shooters see the place.

Phantom,

I "think" the operational financial records are posted somewhere the year following for the THOF.

I will check on this.

 

Brad M and History Seeker,

Thank you very much for the answers.

Best regards,

The P

 

My memory is not what it used to be. ARE some of the items in the museum on loan from family members? If so how could the state claim ownership? IF ANY OF THOSE ITEMS ARE LOST, THE TRUSTEES THAT GAVE THEM AWAY SHOULD HE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. Roger C.

 

Best person to answer this would be History Buff.

Jakearoo, I miss your input lately. You have been very informative.

 

The artifacts that are housed in the HOF should be Insured also but how could anyone put a value on some of them and who should be holding / paying for the policy ..? This is information each and every member of the ATA should be aware of to keep things on the up and up, not to mention those who donated or loaned the property to said HOF ... The ATA has been converted to a Me, Me, Me organization rather than as it was supposed to be, that being a members organization ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

This question might have to be answered soon if the ATA plans to leave. Who owns the HOF?

Bump for the newbies.

 

Your question is kind of broad there. It would seem the Hall of Fame owns everything inside the building and it’s archives. The ground is owned and maintained by the state of illinois. I just recently heard the state foots the power bill for the hof as well. So operating costs shouldn’t be much. I was in there last week, everything was clean and in place just as it was the last time. Talked to the curator he is planning on opening back up weekends soon, he will be open for the shoot next weekend at WSRC.

See you all at the Grand in Sparta! 16 days BM.

 

The THOF Was built with ATA Members Money, and the Members should file a Lien on the The TSHOF Building and Property it sits on, And Include the Property Housed in it, Owned by their Relatives and given back to those Relatives, as it is their Personal Property.

GB...................................DLS

 

Have the THOF Building Dismantled and reassembled at Cardinal Center on ground offered by Jack Fishburn.

GB............................................DLS

 

The Illinois DofForestry do not have a dime invested in the THOF Building and cannot just seize it.

GB...............................DLS

 

I am quoting attorney jakearoo’s statement

In a fight the State of Illinois could, and I expect , take the position that they own the "Museum" which would certainly include the contents. Based on the Definitions Section (B) and Paragraph 21 as discussed above (and probably other sections as well if carefully reviewed), the contract reads that way. And Illinois would effectively argue that was the original intent as any decent lawyer for the ATA would have been specific in the contract and carved out that the contents of the Museum were not part of the agreement and would always belong to the ATA or its successor in interest if those contents were not supposed to be included in the "ownership" of "The Museum."

I know I can’t prove it, but I believe they knowing wrote this contract to anchor the ATA.

 

\
Brad,
You keep saying you will see "you all" in 16/14/ 13 days, you have to know absolutely you will not see the Majority of the Members even if they were giving the place away ... Do not take it as a personal attack, all it is, is a get even, we will show you type thing for the ATA's ignoring the membership from the onset and prior to any relocation ... The ATA plain and simple are being made to pay by the Majority of members as confirmed by the attendance records which are nothing short of Pathetic and have been for the past 15 + years ... Just accept the fact that you will not be seeing the Majority of Members in X X number of days and you won't look so dense, not saying your dense but lack a better or more descriptive word that fits like a glove ... Bet the Farm, your house, cars, trucks, tractors, bank accounts, shotguns and you will look much more on top of things knowing accepting/reality is about to strike again ... I bet there are times you just stare off into space and wonder what the hell really is up there don't you ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...
-

 

I am not saying this attorney is right. Attorneys argue....

"said Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum and Offices to be owned by DNR."
That is quite a clause. It could be interpreted to mean that the DNR owns everything in the museum. A museum is not a building, it is a collection of things housed in a building.
And, the definitions section adds further in (B) "Premises" means the Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum andOffices building, other impovements and the land occupied by the Lessee and owned by DNR as described in Section 2, to be used for the Business Operation.
So, did the ATA just give the Hall of Fame Museum to the State of Illinois? That is the way it reads. Nicely done ATA!
Jake

 

Actually XX days was in reference to the number of days before an announcement on the location of the Grand was to be made. It would seem the Ata made the announcement early.

 

Strange we haven’t seen the promise from Illinois. If I was Mr Shaw or Gipson, I would be waiving that paper that guarantees the grand will happen in Illinois. Merlo says that paper won’t exist. Is Merlo finally wrong?

 

I’m sorry, you must of missed the other posts about the Grand in Sparta not Ohio this year, I heard there was also an email that went out to active ATA members too. See you there!!

 

Brad M....
Your incoherent drunken ramblings are confusing. I will rephrase. Where is the promise / guarantee from IDNR that guarantees the grand will be held in Illinois. I am not asking that it be held in Ohio. Exactly the opposite. Never in Ohio!

Again, if Gipson had a letter from Illinois guaranteeing the grand would not be stopped he would be waiving it. He might even give it to one of the custodians. If the EC cared about the vendors they would publish that letter.

Saying authorized is BS.

So where is the letter? Where is that written guarantee? Merlo says there won’t be one.

 

Jim in Canton,
First off I’m not much of a drinker. Let me explain this more to you. There are no guarantees. Where is the guarantee the cardinal center will have the cardinal classic? Stuff happens. There are no guarantees in life. A guarantee is just as worthless as an authorization. What if an act of god takes out Sparta or cardinal and they can’t have the shoot?, or there a resurgence in the virus and thousands start to die? Or a number of things happen. There’s always an excuse. The angry old shooters here are bitter over the way things were done with the move to Sparta. Let’s all stop shooting! That will show them! It’s worked out real well. The ATA is still around. Get over it. It is not going to change until you make a change. The angry masses had 15 years to try and make changes. All it takes is to get enough board members to see things your way and it can get done. I’m sure if the massive amount of shooters and life members that no longer shoot and are so bitter that all they have to do is complain on a forum all day long want to really make a change in how things are done they could surely get those board members needed to make a change elected. Maybe most like it the way it is? Wow the numbers are down from the vandalia glory days. I’ve never seen a vandalia grand. I don’t care about Vandalia and how things were. It does not matter to me. The grand is what I’ve seen in Sparta and MTA. MTA is a fine facility, with some great staff, but Sparta is my home grounds no matter who owns it.

 

Just an observation:

Brad M. missed his calling should of been a politician because he has more excuses, possible, probable no body knows, if Sparta will be there or if Cardinal Center will be there and Host the Cardinal Classic ... I'll cover all bets on the Cardinal Classic being hosted at Cardinal Center ...The ANGRY MASSES had 15 years to fix what the ATA screwed up as if that is even a Memberships duty ( requirement )... I say this guy is so full of shit he could crap for a week and never lose a pound ... No man could possibly be as stupid as he makes himself appear to be with his defense of a facility built in a place where it will never be a viable facility and a credit to the area in general ...
Brad, You were way ahead before you said anything the first time, obviously has no idea how the ATA works ... WPT ... (YAC) ....

 

Brad M.
There are guarantees. I saw you wrote the opposite.

I can guarantee there will be huge shoots at the CC all year, virus or not. The govna can’t stop us. You can’t say that for Sparta. Merlo says there won’t be a magic letter delivering a guarantee.

You say there isn’t a guarantee but Illinois promised not to collect from the vendors until there is a guarantee. Surprise!

I didn’t want to talk about Sparta the venue but I will if you insist. The SCTP said “NO” even if the targets are free. Great venue? You are throwing fewer targets at the GAH than during the Korean War. Keep up the good work.

You seem bitter we don’t want or need the problems with the once grand. Keep the 2012Pull gang with you.

Sparta might shoot in August. It is a guarantee Ohio and Missouri will. They aren’t gun hate states.

 

Where have I heard that speech before?

If I hadn’t read the sign on name I would have thought it was a miracle and he was back.

Surprised there wasn’t a graph

A couple of things that just about jump off the page
“Lets all stop shooting”
When it comes to your place of employment THOUSANDS did.
They haven’t stopped shooting. They just won’t shoot THERE

“ Maybe most like it there”
Most?
Really? You’re going to go with that?

See the above. THOUSANDS QUIT going to a shoot they waited all year for.

“I don’t care about Vandalia and how things were”

I don’t blame you. You have enough to worry about working for the outfit that employs you without having something else to think about.

And you should be worried.

“ I’ve never seen a Vandalia Grand”

Then actually, in all honesty, you don’t have any idea what all us “ angry old Trap shooters” are talking about. Do you?

Look, I understand how you must feel. You know the place sucks but can’t say so because they pay your salary. I get that. Before I retired almost three years ago I worked for an outfit like that. It was a pretty big company with about 100 million in sales per year. They paid me plenty. But they still SUCKED.

I couldn’t say anything while I was still there but can say it now. When they close down that place you work you might be able to do the same thing.

We will still be here to listen.

 

Brad is starting to sound like Sir Neil Winston was re-incarnated.

 

I sure hope his dog KYRA is alright and got a good home ... Beautiful animal ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Some people believe that you can be reincarnated as an animal. Like a hunting dog for instance.

Karma, to end up the second time around working at Thorn Bottom and have the owner as your handler.

 

If it turns out the state ownes the contents will the E.C. and Jim Bradford be held liabel for giving it away. what about the items that are on loan. Roger C.

 

I treat all my dogs better than N1H1 treated the ATA shooters. I'd hoped that he would come back as a Red Tail Hawk if he was around here. But I like the idea.

 

This thread seems to have aged pretty well. A lot better than the 30 days comments from all those years ago. I'd like to see that thread back to the top.

 

We let men with no honor take over the ata about 25 years ago, now look what we got in return.
They were a bunch of self serving bumble heads. I'm not going to give my description of a bumble head.
ROGER C.

 

Rog, who were these "men of honor"? I've been around this ATA game since '72 and all I can recall is a bunch of bums. I'm scratching my head to remember a few. Maybe you can enlighten us and name names.

 

NEVER SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT THE DEAD, AS THEY CAN NOT DEFEND THEN SELVES. If you can not identify the live ones, I can not help you.
there were many that were not a part of the B.O.D. or EC that help ruin the sport. YOU are one of them. sad but true. Roger C.
Get this thread back to the H.O.F. topic

 

im in the movie house eating popcorn, but have no clue whats playing, so i wont ask. i'll just keep eating popcorn.
lol!

 

bobski, Do not wait he is trying to put me in a corner. Name , names I will only submit the people that admitted to flagerantly breaking the rules, when he self confessed every one now knows his name.
PS I did not mention any, (MEN OF HONOR). apparently reading is not one of you strong points. Roger C.

 

ahhh, you mean how the celebrities/men of honor that didnt like so many up and coming shooters getting into aaa in nssa, so they whined and bod changed the class system to make 99.7 aaa, instead of 99.5? which pushed the threats down back into aa?
got it.

 

I have wrote many times, men of no honor. Oleo has a comprehension problem, he does not understand written statements.
Many actions seem to have started in PA, and none of them enriched the sport. I think I will have a talk with WPT's toaster it makes more sense than
talking with Oleo.
OLEO, you probably do not realize it , but you have confirmed my statement about letting MEN OF NO HONOR take over the sport, by confirming that they did not follow the rules of the sport.
at least 25 years ago. Thank you OLEO Roger C.

 

Rog, we've had quite a few top ATA All-American trapshooters visit PA and leave with their tails between their legs. We wouldn't know what a fluffy into the sky target ever looked like until we travel West. At least I'm not caught in a time warp as I can mention one ATA president that addressed sandbagging-one more than you.

 

You are caught in something a lot worse than a time warp. You are trying to make every one come down to your level of being a not being honest as a person.
It will not work. Bull droppings, is the only thing you toss about on here. Name a few of those all Americans that left with their tails between their legs. I think you were a never was as a that shooter, and are trying to make your self sound important. Big mouth and big gun are not compatible. Roger C.
PS WPT's toaster has more honor than some wantabe shooters. Roger C.

 

I don't have to name who those top All-Americans are but they vowed never to return because the place is so unfair-meaning damn difficult. We don't shoot those mid-west and south-west fluffballs over thousands of acres of nothing backgrounds or a curtain. All you have to see is how well our East shooters perform when leaving PA and shooting elsewhere. Notice how many PA residents attend mid-west and southeast ATA shoots but you'll see about none anywhere here. That said, it's obvious our shoot management knows how to make our customers happy and take their money under adverse shooting conditions. Now, about those sandbaggers again and what "man of honor" you know ever addressed the situation?

 

one item of interest in the hall of fame museum is the odd trap gun donated by my good friend now gone on to glory, herb jones. he was a local artist here in va beach and we shot a lot at the oceana range. he had been reduced to shooting only 410 because of illness when i met him, but he was a dead on hip shooter with his m42's. he invited to his home numerous times, his wife was charming and he had his entire m42 collection hanging in his studio. i have numeorus signed pieces from his chespeake art collection... to this day. we grew to like each other over time and he gave me 1st dibbs on all of the 42's. but when he passed, his son did not honor it. herb gave the museum his 101 trap gun. wonder if its still there.

 

A LOT OF FAMILY HEIRLOOMS WILL PROBABLY BE LOST DUE TO THE UNDERHANDED MOVES OF THE COMMITTIE. ROGER C.

 

OK, since this thread has rubbed the wall then crashed and burned, I think it's time to get back on the main topic.

This is the yellow flag. I don't want to be forced to DQ any of the drivers.

If anyone wants to start ANOTHER thread about easy targets, they are welcome to try.

Flyersarebest
Moderator (the nice one)

 

I didn't study the lease agreement as closely as some people but this is what I got out of it way back when it was first posted.

If the ata reneges on the lease and pulls up stakes the state owns the building and the contents. To me that was a gun (pardon the pun) pointed at the head honchos to make the ata think twice if they decided to leave before the lease was up.

If the state decides to call it quits, the ata takes its marbles with them to the new playground.

 

Thank you!

Their ongoing feud always hijacks threads and gets very old.

And if I recall, it was an outrageous amount they spent on that pole barn.

 

Shortbarrel, It bordered on a scam. Roger C.

 

FLYERS, I suggested that after my second post. Roger C.

 

Mods I am bumping this archived thread since ownership of the ATA HOF was questioned on another thread.

 

according to their IRS Form 990, the HOF Corporation owned a building in tax year 2021.

 

Post it here. I am calling bullshit!

 

View attachment upload_2024-6-19_17-19-35.png
Badactor - perhaps you should learn how to look things up

 

Gary….
Why can’t we see who that is for? We can’t see if it is the ATA or the HOF. For all
I know that could be for Hunter Biden.

Please copy and paste. Don’t get in trouble putting up a link.

 

unlike many "badactors" on this site, I have no reason to lie.

 

Wow! That looks like some shady assed accounting there. jmho The HOF took out loans to build a horse barn on Illinois property. And they pay a lease on that property. And when the HOF decides to leave they can’t sell it. And they show huge depreciation now! And they don’t have a deed to the land?

I am not an accountant but I don’t see a title to any property. I see they are recording depreciation on their shitty investment.

If you want to prove the HOF owns the deed to property and building show it. It’s public information right?

 

Sorry - I am not trying to prove anything. I can only read the form and it states the HOF owns building(s). I have to assume the building is the pole barn in Sparta. I do not have further knowledge other than what is in this form and I never claimed to have more information than what is in the form.

 

No Gary it doesn’t state they own buildings. You were trying to prove something. Fail?

 

Not sure how you reach your conclusion. In the 990 Form, Section X, (Assets) line 10a.Land, Buildings, or Equipment there is an entry for cost and depreciation. more than 2 million cost and 650K depreciation. So clearly the form indicates the HOF owns "something". Schedule D part VI is a restatement but categorizes the amount for "buildings". So why do you say it doesn't state they own buildings ?? Again, I was/am just providing information - not a story - not trying to prove anything - just providing the data the HOF filed with the IRS in 2022.

 

Nothing obvious gets by you right Gary? Is the building hanging in the air with a skyhook? Where is the land? Do they own land??? Lololol

No land!

They built a building for Illinois. They get to show depreciation. Creepy people!

 

Two million $$$ and Illinois gets it! And keeps it?

Of course there is no entry for land. Illinois owns the land. They get to deduct depreciation on the building they built for Illinois.

They could have had a building, land, and right of way for free. Instead they actually get nothing but depreciation on their taxes. That is what the entries show. The tax entry doesn’t show they own buildings. But they get the above write off

I don’t think Gary fooled anyone.

 

Really Orangeman ?? The schedule D entry clearly is for building(s). Why do you say no ?? What does the Schedule D entries tell you ?? I am not trying to fool anyone. Just providing information. PS - as you speak about the free land, building and right of way - the hot rumor at the PA State Shoot was that the CC is going up for auction after the Ohio State shoot. And I did say rumor.

 

Earth to Gary….
Of course that schedule is for buildings. You can invest in a building and not have the title or land the building sits on. In this case if a sixth grader helped you, you will see in this thread where the HOF built a building on land they don’t own. They can depreciate the building / investment. They will never get ownership or title to it. It sits on state land. Hard to believe right?

You will see on the schedule that there is no land listed. Under land it shows a goose egg. Looks like this. “0”. No land! You can’t have title and ownership without owning land. Confused?

You mention to me the CC as if I have some major attachment to Ohio. My username “Orangeman” should be a clue to you my attachment is Syracuse. But, I see your hate for the CC.

 

Sorry to disappoint you Orangeman - I do not hate the CC or anywhere that throws targets. I even shoot in the Great Cicero Swamp. I have been able to shoot at the CC several times. I would be there now if not for conflicts with medical treatment. I did and do understand the HOF Pole Barn is built on land that belongs to the State of Illinois. I was only providing information to people who believe the building was also given away. Perhaps it will be - but In tax year 2021, the HOF still owned the building (but not the spot of land it sits on). It is like folks who live in mobile home communities - they own the home but not the land it sits on and can get kicked off anytime.

 

Gary….
You just can’t seem to get it. If you read the lease the building stays where it is. The HOF has no title or deed to it. Although that million dollar horse barn looks like it should be in a trailer park, it is on state property. When the lease is up they are out. The trailer/horse barn stays.

Above AttoryJakearoo pointed out….That does not change the primary problem in the lease in the preamble (the final "Whereas") stating "said Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum and Offices to be owned by DNR." (Emphasis added.) This is repeated in Definitions Section (B) defining Premesis

 

And there is this post from attorney Jakearoo…


"said Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum and Offices to be owned by DNR."
That is quite a clause. It could be interpreted to mean that the DNR owns everything in the museum. A museum is not a building, it is a collection of things housed in a building.
And, the definitions section adds further in (B) "Premises" means the Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum and Offices building, other impovements and the land occupied by the Lessee and owned by DNR as described in Section 2, to be used for the Business Operation.
So, did the ATA just give the Hall of Fame Museum to the State of Illinois? That is the way it reads. Nicely done ATA!
Jake

………

Do your research Gary.