POLL - Requested Cardinal Center Proposal hidden from ATA Board of Directors? WHY? - POLL

The requested proposal from the CC was kept under wraps at the recent BOD. meeting? This has a few scratching their heads and finger pointing. And an occasional “I told you so.”

 

It seems to me that there is way too much speculation floating around. I believe that it is time for a well known person with impeccable trapshooting credentials to ask Mr. Fishburn for an "on the record" interview regarding the topic of his meeting with the ATA and to report the full transcript of that interview to this website. History Buff should be present during the interview.

At a time like this, hearsay is dangerous and only serves to further postpone full access to the truth.

Respectfully,

The Phantom

 

Wow, first good post I have seen from the Phantom!

 

Merlo,

Do Sikhs practice Taqiyya?

 

Who said there was a proposal? Maybe they just flew there to get their award.

 

Speculation only serves to further postpone full access to the truth. The subject is too important and too serious to allow room for "maybe."

 

For all the factual information that's been posted, we might as well have asked this guy.

 

Check out my info from other threads, gospel truth as I know it to be.

 

Who requested the proposal?

 

I was told Paul Shaw first at the Ohio State shoot, then phone call from Gibson. the next week.

 

Who requested the written proposal and who scheduled the meeting?

 

Looks like the BOD is on a need to know basis also. HOHUM/////// Roger C.
PS Gibson has to much to loose if the CC takes over the Grand. There will be no place for Gibson there.

 

There's more to it than that.

 

I was told by the puppet master himself. He wanted it e mailed before Jack and the boys got to Sparta for the meeting so the big heads had a chance to go over it.

 

Yes, there was a PROPOSAL but you will never say what it was about, will you? Maybe you just don't know what it was about but just say that.

 

Some of us know what was in the proposal while others do not. Not part of the in crowd I see. I can see why.

 

It sounds to me like you are challenging Mr. Brad Dysinger's integrity. IF you are challenging Mr. Dysinger's integrity, you are a wasted POS and you will rot in your own vomit. You don't belong here.

 

I have stated all the facts of the proposal on other threads that I wanted to, I was hoping that there might be ONE delegate out there in the big ATA world that would want the facts to be shared with the members. HIGH LITES 10 years, 9 banks of traps added, new central entree building to be built, at least 100 new camp sites, ATA to get the camping money, other small things.

ATA to pay CC $15000 a day to rent the grounds, 3 cents a target, ATA to pay $750,000 up front off of the $15K a day fee. Other small details.

Big Picture ATA wins, Jack looses the Cardinal Clasic shoot if grand moves to CC, gives up that shoots revenue and gets a bunch of ingrates (EC & Gibson) on his grounds 10 days out of the year. Bad Deal for Jack.

 

Well thank you Brad. Here you are saying that the proposal was to move the Grand to the CC. Let me know if I got that correct. If it correct, I asked an EC member the exact question and he said there is no such proposal. Basically, it's a lie and the Grand will be at Sparta for the foreseeable future. He also told me the exact thing I quoted from the NY delegate which will be in the October T&F. Don't ask me for my source because it's not going to happen.

 

This has gotten completely out of hand. Please fix it.

 

It would take more than 10 days to get rid of the stench from having the EC, Gipson, and some of the BOD on the grounds ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You are saying there were two stories ... And you felt the need to troll here to try to prove the one you wanted to believe .....

This would be a very good time for you to make a few apologies .....

 

Let's get to the rat killin

What Mr. Fishburn does or doesn't do is nobody's business. If he wants to make it public or keep it private it's up to him. Hey VJ, he isn't part of that corrupt bunch you think is doing such a fine job so he doesn't owe YOU or me anything. Guys like you are PERFECT ata members.
Like one of the three monkies, see nothing, hear nothing, do NOTHING.

Keep throwing that monkey crap against the wall and see what sticks. Just be prepared to have some of it thrown back. You have run and hidden when it is done but you would have to run all the way to say, ? Guyana or some place like that to make it stop.

As far as you staying on this site? I for one want you stay. I really enjoy showing you the pictures of the hand pay slips.

This one was from last night. Had about $400 in it.
I know you don't have the balls to bet but at least I can give you a chance to see what someone with more money than you can do with it if they decide not to spend it by supporting that place in ILLnews.

 

My point exactly, the EC and Gibson are fibbing to YOU and the delegates. Merlo was right, and you need to check my history and find out how many times I have been wrong about CC dealings. Are you really ignorant (I hope your just trolling to keep up this thread) enough to think that Jack Fishburn gives a shit about Sparta Illinois? The SCTP is at the Cardinal Center remember, for the next ten years.

Everything I've told you is what I know, not all I know. I personally know Lynn Gibson and I have for about 40 years. He used to be the computer guy for Missouri at Linn Creek and ran a club in KC area and then took over Linn Creek. I used to think Lynn was a little slow, but now I think he is in the Taylor mold. I'm normally a better judge of character than that.

I don't care who you quote, although feel free to quote me at anytime as long as it is accurate. I personally know everyone on both sides of this deal. Shaw, Gibson, Jack, the boys running the Cardinal Center and I'll guarantee they all know me. Who do you know, or are you just claiming to know. Oh ya I forgot the target claimer, I know him too and I remember.

I hope Jack listens to me and Shit Cans this before it happens.

 

This Mike Jay guy is a fxxking train wreck. My Mom said that it was not good to look at train wrecks. Please, make this bastard disappear.

 

I think he is trying to get thrown off, Please don't do it, Keep the troll, feed the troll, I love the troll, do it for me guys don't ban him.

 

FWIW ...... "Mike J" is not thrown off of anything ..... I would guess at this point he probably wants people to think he is .....

 

Why is it when people don't like what is being said they call it trolling? Are you saying that I am lying Brad and I didn't talk to an EC official at the Grand? You stated what you know wether facts and I stated what I know. Leave the low talk for others, you are above that.

 

Because you didn't come here seeking the truth ..... you came here to tell everyone the ATA lie was really the true story, because you talked to a ATA person that would NEVER lie to your face .....

You got your ass handed to you ..... and now it is ..... oh poor me ..... save it .....

 

I'm starting to feel guilty about my bad attitude about Mike Jay. Mike, with your love and dedication to the sport, you should be looking for opportunities to serve that have more responsibility and more upward mobility. God forbid, if things don't work out for you here, don't give up. I have it on direct authority that the GSSF is looking for Board Members. You're just a natural and I know you'd fit right in. Don't say I never did nothing for you.

Oh, I should have been more clear. The "G" doesn't stand for Glock.

You bud,

The Phantom

 

What a tool LOL
HB was right

 

You accused me of a falsehood first. I know what I've told you is 100 % gospel. I know all these people and I don't know if you know any of them, I think you only know what someone wants you to repeat on here to cover their ass. I know a lot, and I mean a lot, more dirt about some of the people you look up to. These people lie or don't know what is going on. It's OK if you want to believe them, I don't because I know most of them.

Has your delegate buddy ever talked to Jack, or Dan, or Jake, or Luke, or Bubba? These are the people who know what is what from the CC. Unlike the EC, or Gibson, they have never lied to me. They have no need too, it doesn't matter if the ATA comes or not because for the next 10 years the SCTP is at the Cardinal, not to mention the Sporting Clays shoots and all the corporate events held each year. Jake told me that the CC had over 200 days of events scheduled this year (2019). Registered shooting, while important to the Cardinal Center, is far from the most important.

I asked Jack and Dan why would the Cardinal want to give up their Classic shoot in August? It doesn't make financial sense. Please don't repeat everything you are told by your delegate, he only knows what the EC wants him to. As a test ask him if he has seen Gibson's contract, or even if he is allowed too see it. I was told by a past delegate from the west that when he wanted to see it he couldn't (Just this Month while the grand was going on) Why if everything is on the up and up would that be Mike?

But make no mistake the first request came from Shaw. He didn't want it out, well tuff shit for him.

 

Brad - please read my note slowly. I said an EC member told me that there was never a proposal to move the Grand to the CC and the Grand will be at Sparta for the foreseeable future, NOT a delegate. The delegate I quoted in a post yesterday was about the budget passed and he did write also that the Grand will be at Sparta for a long time. I hope the meeting will be covered in the EC minutes if there wasn't a confidentiality agreement.

 

My Guess Is There Will Be No Minutes Published Mike J. And What Brad Is Telling You Is That Your EC Connection Is Lying To Your Face. I Believe Brad, Because He Is Listing Names And Sources And You Ain't Listing Shit!!!!

 

Shaw issued the first request. He is a Vice Pres. He would not have issued the request in a vacuum. The entire EC must know. Since they didn't stop him, they must know the gravity of the situation. It would not be in their best interest for the topic of the RFP(Request For Proposal) to fall into the hands of the "rank and file." A good strategy for keeping the RFP from the "rank and file" is to keep it from the delegates. The EC fears a mutiny, and rightfully so....IF...and it's a big if...if IT EVER TURNS OUT THAT THE RANK AN FILE HAS ANY GUTS OR INTEGRITY OF ITS OWN. To date, that has not been the case. The EC knows that many will just go along to get along. If that happens, the EC knows they will always come out of this unscathed.

So, The EC knows that Sparta is a dead man walking.

Now, did Gipson write the Request For Proposal on letterhead? If so, History Buff needs a copy. Did he send his Request for Proposal via email? If so, History Buff needs a copy.

What the Request for Proposal from The EC of the ATA amounts to is a blanket admission of FAILURE at SPARTA. Other than possibly Reno, which for all practical purposes is Double BFE, Cardinal represents THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

Mr. Fishburn, when you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow. You are a noble Christian steward of the game, everybody knows that. The EC is a failure. Please amend your proposal thusly:the ATA can be welcome at The Cardinal Center, BUT the EC must resign...AND they must make amends. The members deserve justice, nothing more, nothing less.

Respectfully,

The Phantom

 

For the Village Idiot Phantom you are pretty sharp.

 

Thank you.

With respect,

The Phantom

 

I have got to wondering about all of this.

I wonder If Paul Shaw is perhaps preparing a BACK-UP plan for the time he is President ?

I wouldn't blame anyone who would be the sitting President if they wanted to have a back-up plan, on the CHANCE that the State of Illinois would up and decide to close the place down before the GAH, like they did just before the kids were to hold their shoot a couple of years ago.

It happened to the kids, nothing says the State wouldn't do it to the ATA. The State has NOTHING to loose.

I would applaud Paul IF this was perhaps the motive for his asking about a proposal.

He wouldn't be committing to anything, just making sure that the ATA had a place to hold the GAH on that off chance ~~~

This is Just a WAG on my part. Time will tell the reason in the EC minutes, I hope.

 

Do you think the current president would abdicate his authority to support Shaw's selfish motives?

 

I certainly do not think Mr. Shaw has selfish motives.

I believe what he (If he) did was looking out for the best interest of the organization, so they would have a place to hold this shoot IF things went bad in Illinois.

 

The target claimer will do nothing to get in the way of his getting a $20,000.00 gun and $20,000.00 hand out.
Evil will prevail , when men of honor do nothing. Roger C.

 

Are we sure the Cardinal Center representatives real motive in traveling to Sparta was not to check out the new hotels and restaurants which have been built?

 

EVERY member of the EC knew about the "informal request for proposal" prior to the initial contact between Mr. Shaw and Cardinal Center. For their mutual protection, unanimous consent from all of the members of the EC would have been needed to advance such a risky proposition. They would have never exposed themselves to the dangers associated with making a request for HELP if they had not known IN ADVANCE that WSRC was going down. In other words, Mr. Shaw did NOT act alone, or, as I said earlier, in a vacuum. In effect, he was just the front man acting on behalf of the members of the EC. They were all in it together.

Once the waters had been tested, the duty of forwarding a formal request was handed to Mr. Gipson. Mr. Gipson forwarded the official RFP to Mr. Fishburn in the first week of July. That gave Mr. Fishburn about 20 days to create, develop, scrutinize and present his proposal. Real life, professionally constructed proposals DO NOT grow on trees
It was Mr. Fishburn's time and effort that made the proposal possible. His loyal staff and his advisers are owed a debt of gratitude. To Mr. Fishburn and his team, THANK YOU!

Since the end of the Grand, some have said that Mr. Fishburn came home empty handed. What if the Sparta meeting was just the first step in a long negotiation? What if the jury has not yet been sequestered. Oddly, though, time is of the essence. Remember how long it took the EC to act when it had been known for years that Vandalia was in danger? Things are different now! For the EC to react as precipitately as it just did, the WSRC is most assuredly in shit up to its ears. Their actions betray the fact. There is, however, at least one unanswered question. Did the EC of the ATA request proposals from any one else?

Look at it this way, the EC of the ATA requested a proposal for HELP because they need a way to save their collective ass. Mr. Fishburn submitted a proposal because he wants to save Trapshooting.

Here's the real tragedy in all of this. The other evening, I went back and read Merlo's very first entry here at Americantrapshooter.com. If I hadn't known better, I'd have thought it had just been posted. The same old glib banter, the same pissing and moaning, the same "it's the other guy's fault" attitude that seems to be pervasive in many of the other threads you see here today. Nothing has changed! Four years wasted, and nothing has changed.

This website has a POWERFUL voice and a STURDY platform. Real MEN come here. Trapshooting could use a few heroes right now. Where are they?

"How many trap houses?" Why don't you guys start a thread on "7 1/2s or 8s?"

The time for small ball is over. It's time to face the demons. It's time to plant a tree.

Respectfully,

The Phantom

(the preceding is my opinion)

 

Phantom a very well thought our post. I'm not sure that VP Shaw wasn't acting on his own when he approached the Cardinal people at the Ohio State shoot. But that might not be the case. It has been reported to me that the EC is going to talk about the CC offer in December, I guess then they don't have to tell the BOD about it until the minutes of that meeting come out in T&F sometime in the spring.

I'm just speculating now but when does the Illinois $15 minimum wag law take affect? Maybe this is one concern too. I'd think that the Ex-director would be on top of how much more this will raise the operating costs for the shoots.

So many questions, so few shooters. On another note I've been talking to a few of my old time buddies and might be getting a couple of them to start posting what they really think and what they tell me on the phone. I hope they use em before they loose em.

I always leave them with "what would President Trump Do?"

 

It would be my guess that Mr. Shaw has or will face some scrutiny by the other E. C. members for acting alone.

I would tend to believe Mr. Dysinger's and History Seeker's versions.

 

Would Mr. Gipson act on one man's authorization?

Mr. Dysinger's remark would seem to suggest tacit approval by the EC of Mr. Shaw's actions.

 

The ATA over the years has turned into a cesspool of a bunch of wannbe's driven by greed ... What was once an honorable Association of Integrity has been turned into a Cash Cow for those who sit on the EC , ED, and many of the BOD who only care about what they can get out of the Association for their own benefit ... This happens a lot when there is a lot of money there for the taking on as many occasions as they can figure out to make it look remotely legal ... Mr Paul Shaw has a reputation of being a man of honor, problem is he is sitting in a circle of deceit and corruption ... One man will not be able to have enough power to up root the evils and corruption that exist by design the way the ATA is operated today ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The EC knows Sparta is going to be shut down. I think they even know the date. I will predict it is going to be before the next planned Grand American trap shoot. I think the panic button has already been pushed. .
I hope the entire EC and Bod are told to resign, before any one steps in to rescue the ATA. We need new blood to revive the organization. And they should also send the exofficios packing also. Roger C.

 

Please keep Sparta open. Start a new wing on the HOF and tell the Martins they can be in it for a few million.

 

Sparta, Was a field of dreams. That never happened. The tax payers of Ill. were sold a wet dream. The facility is ideal, the location was a mistake. Even tho it was pointed out to the EC, they did not listen, seeing as they are the smartest people in the room. One wonders if there was some incentives offered that did not see the light of day, that swayed the decision to move to a gun hating state, with a corrupt governing body. The members voiced their opinion of the move, and were ignored. They hurt the sport more than we will ever know. Roger C.

 

Mr. Gipson made the formal contact with CC in the first week of July.

Questions have arisen which can be answered with a "yes" or a "no."

Did he act on behalf of the EC? Did he write the RFP on ATA letterhead? Or did he e-mail his RFP?

Was the entire EC scheduled to attend the meeting at WSRC?

Did the agenda of the meeting include discussion?


























proposal

Did the agenda of the meeting include discussion?

 

Brother Merlo,

Things sure are quiet. I'm starting to think that your posse disbanded.

I'm not so bright, but it seems to me that this meeting between ATA/EC and CC is probably one of the most important and significant events in the history of modern trapshooting. 'Course, maybe it really doesn't matter. After all, it's probably easier to just to sweep it under the rug...with all the other failures. Or maybe it's Super Hush-Hush Top Secret. Everybody knows our Nation's Security hinges on the future of trapshooting.

Questions, however, never really go away, do they?

Who attended the meeting? Not just a few of the names, but all of the names. Who attended?

Where was the meeting held? Some guarded location?

Were minutes taken? Is there any record of the meeting?

I'll bet there are other questions. Merlo, what do you think?

 

Your delegate should have all those answers. Not saying I don’t have most of them.
I report. You decide.

Merlo out

 

I'm almost willing to bet IF and WHEN the minimum wage law goes in effect out there, the shooting prices will go up substantially.

OR, perhaps there will be another $1.00 DONATION (ha ha) per event for the payment of trap help on top of the $1.00 per event for the pay down of the Trapshooting Hall of Fame (STATE OWNED) building loan.

I can foresee that buck per event an every year thing for that Horse barn until that loan is paid off...It probably was not just a one year thing.

At this stage of the game NOTHING would surprise me.

 

It worries me that some of the folks around here may be questioning a certain "reporter's" journalistic credibility.
Merlo, you don't really want me to ask a delegate, do you? I thought it was common knowledge that nobody trusts anything a delegate, and for that mattter, an EC member, has to say. I thought you knew that.

 

IL

Effective 7-1-2010 $8.25
Effective 1-1-2020 $9.25
Effective 7-1-2020 $10.00

Next year will be up $2.00 over this year.

 

EB, WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO? Roger C.

 

Answering Brad's question.

BRAD DYSINGER said: ↑
I'm just speculating now but when does the Illinois $15 minimum wag law take affect? Maybe this is one concern too. I'd think that the Ex-director would be on top of how much more this will raise the operating costs for the shoots.

 

@Roger Coveleskie


I looked up Illinois minimum wage with google foo. The minimum wage in Illinois is going to $15.00 per hour in 2025. It is on a course to do so in incremental fashion. The current figure is $8.25 an hour. The other figures appear to be the programmed hikes scheduled for 2020.

 

The State of Illinois is in so deep it can't even smell the crap anymore ... Pritzgers new deal gives them a blank check and they have zero, like no money ... They passed a budget for 40.2 billion and the State was in debt last year for 50.9 billion which gives them a short fall (deficit ) of over 10 billion starting out ... IDNR got a major cut based on what little can be found on the State web site ... I searched the line items that you can find and it looks like something a kid would come up with sans the graphs and charts ... One article shows the State obligations are going to exceed 186.5 billion in the next 2 years, hell man I would be breaking out in sweats if I were facing those obligations and not have the financials to take care of them ... (We are talking Illinois here so they over look a lot of stuff ) ... Wages at any rate are going to kill many things in the State ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I was told by the puppet master himself. He wanted it e mailed before Jack and the boys got to Sparta for the meeting so the big heads had a chance to go over it.

BRAD DYSINGER, Aug 27, 2019Report
#14Like− QuoteReply

It is clear from Mr. Dysinger's post of August 27, 2019, that the entire("big heads") EC wanted to have the full CC proposal BEFORE the ATA/CC meeting in Sparta was scheduled to take place in late July/early August.

C'mon, Men, the ENTIRE EC is in this thing up to their eyeballs. The ONLY REASON they would ever look for another facility is......(are you ready?) because they KNOW Sparta is a DEAD MAN WALKING. To admit that is to admit failure. No wonder they want to keep this information secret.

With Sparta dead, and no place to go, what will all the ignorant(blissfully uninformed) little lemmings do?

Please! This is some serious shit. It's really OK to talk about it.

 

Phantom:

I believe the rulers are looking for the best possible exit strategy. They may decide to wait till the state locks the gate.

 

Why would they want to do that ?????

A homeless grand is a poor position to bargain with ..... So, making any demands at that point would most likely be met with laughter .....

 

I doubt the ATA has an agreement with Illinois which says the ATA can walk away at any point in time for any reason with zero penalty for early withdrawal. Maybe they do.

What is the motive for the denial of the exploratory meeting? A departure of the ATA from Sparta IL is a different animal than leaving 601 West National Road.

It is my understanding that at least one assembly after regular shooting program hours at the big Sparta ATA shoot held this year, some elected government officials and some ATA officials were assembled in front of the participants in the bleachers. It is further my understanding that statements were made on the public address system by the public face of the ATA to the effect of we like it here and plan on being here a long time.

It goes without saying that the public face of politics and the private face of politics may or may not appear to be in agreement. However, when the ATA left 601 West National Road for shooting purposes; there were some written documents and minutes available which ATA officials had the ability to point out to the membership.

What kinds of similar documents do ATA officials have the ability to show and tell today? The best of my knowledge, ability and belief indicates to me that all the ATA has to show are public record materials which indicate the financial picture of Illinois is not a pretty sight.

 

History Buff posted the entire AGREEMENT on July 31, 2019. Please read it all.

 

Go here ..... http://www.americantrapshooter.com/index.php?threads/mou-you-decide-signed-copy.2085/#post-21450

Post one(1) ..... Read "5" (five) ..... as signed by the "ATA" and State of Illinois/IDNR ..... There are even two(2) stamps at the bottom where you should be able to find copies in their files ....

This ..... "The ATA took the first step toward legally breaking the contract with the state, issuing a letter asking the state to guarantee the facility would be open next July and August. The state has 60 days to respond." Can be found here https://thesouthern.com/sports/outd...cle_78b3ee33-7c9e-566d-90b5-e672b03d23fa.html

Read post one(1) here ..... http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...te-on-world-shooting-complex.1643/#post-17173

"It is the opinion of our legal representatives that by suspending shooting with no indication of resumption, the State has defaulted on our Lease Agreement for the use of the facility for the Grand American."

If you still have "doubt", there is more, ad nauseam ..... The "ATA" WANTS to stay, the HAVE TO ship sailed and sank to the bottom of the BFE pit .....

 

Brad, Do you know the Clintons? and what can you tell us about the Clintons and their endeavors?

 

For the sake of clarification, to which "Clintons" do you refer? Please provide their complete names.

Thank you.

 

Do you really have to ask?

 

Think of me as an interested bystander. What prompted you to introduce the "Clintons" to this ongoing conversation.

 

He is going to have you commit suicide like the Clintons friends do ... Two shots to the back of the head ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Actually, I intend to commit suicide on my 107th Birthday. I'll be servicing well endowed, oversexed blond twins.

 

Brad, Could that be warning, or a threat? Watch you back, this guy could be a little slippery. Roger C.

 

I'll keep my good eye out for the Clinton's. It won't do any good to claim a hit on ME there will have to be a real piece for it to count. You are right though that Rob guy is a little slippery, I've even seen him shoot those skeets.

 

Say, is this that Rob Taylor guy you're talking about?

 

no

 

Brad, Is it the real estate expert? Roger C.

 

no

 

All sizes...lotsa GREAT colors!

 

The best quote ever from good old willie

"WHADDA YA MEAN, SHE KEPT THE DRESS"

 

[captions, please]

 

Can't talk with my mouth full ~~~

 

Coca-Cola and peanuts all up in my nose. Keyboard's trashed. Skivvies soaked!

But...it was worth it.

I don't care who tries. Nobody will come up with a better one!

Thanks!

The Phantom

 

There are members here who know the answers to many of the questions posed above. This thread has lost any credibility it might have had.

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Dr. Martin Luther King

 

Monica said she will never vote democratic again, they left a bad taste in her mouth … (oldie but worth it ) … WPT … (YAC) …