Grand American Statistics and ATA Financials

March 13, 2006 EC minutes

Total Net Gain (Net Assets) for fiscal year ended September 30, 2005, is $1,283,950., as contrasted to $207,233., of fiscal year ended September 30, 2004. Treasurer Burkey advised that of the total net gain, as indicated, $1,257,461., was attributable to the fee simple sale of the Vandalia property to the City of Dayton

— The 2005 Grand American Tournament showed a loss of $150,224., as contrasted to a profit of $53,929., in the 2004 Grand American Tournament.

Treasurer Burkey and Executive Director Norris presented a detailed summary of the financial details pertinent to the 2005 Grand American. Both Officers commented that “the loss was not unexpected yet remains a severe disappointment

— Total Assets at September 30, 2005, were $10,134,216. — Investment Income for fiscal year ended September 30, 2005, was $291,498., as contrasted to 132 $281,372., for fiscal year ended September 30, 2004.

April 16, 2007 EC minutes

Total Net Gain (Net Assets), or loss, for fiscal year ended September 30, 2006, is ($147,472.), as contrasted to a net gain of $1,283,950., for fiscal year ended September 30, 2005. Treasurer Burkey advised that the total net gain for the 2004-2005 year end was attributable to the fee simple sale of the Vandalia property to the City of Dayton. The net loss for the 2005-2006 year end was substantially attributable to the start-up and organizational efforts of relocating the ATA-conducted shoots at the WSRC. The 2006 Grand American Tournament showed a loss of ($153,506.), as compared to a loss of ($150,224.), at the 2005 Grand American Tournament. Treasurer Burkey, assisted by ATA Office Manager Connie J. Collier, presented a detailed summary of the financial details pertinent to the 2006 Grand American and U.S. Open Trapshooting Tournaments. Both Officers commented that “the current year’s losses were not unexpected yet the financial situation remains a disappointment that must be aggressively addressed by the Executive Committee.” [Secretary’s Note: The detailed summaries pertaining to the 2006 U.S. Open Trapshooting Championships specifics have been published in prior Official Minute Records.]

Total Assets at September 30, 2006, were $9,109,055. Investment Income for fiscal year ended September 30, 2006, was $385,199., as contrasted to 270 $291,498., for fiscal year ended September 30, 2005.

March 10, 2019 EC Minutes

ATA Investment as of March 2019 $17,503.433 = Sparta Cash $302,386 = 17,805,819

2011 August $ 8,177,713

2012 August $10,229,644

2013 August $10,143,276

2014 August $11,243,693

2015 August $12,327,290

2016 August $14,243,772

2017 August $16,160,810

2018 August $17,360,914

 

This is the response I promised to HB. I took the data he provided and researched some of my own. Here are my conclusions and observations.

Average total entries for Vandalia years (excluding 1999 Centennial year) is about 35,400. Average total for Sparta years is 30,500, approximately 5,000 less than Vandalia.

The demographics dropped significantly since Vandalia but demographic is not a true indicator compared to actual entries. Major loss of shooters from Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan and not enough pick up from Illinois and Missouri.

The Grand at Sparta is doing much better financially compared to Vandalia. The ATA is in a much better financial position after 14 years at Sparta compared to 82 years at Vandalia.

Seems lesser shooters are contributing more financially to the ATA which may indicate that the sport is becoming more of a white collar game as opposed to previously blue collar majority support.

 

Coolie, cool, cool numbers, but it really doesn't matter. They'll be closing the lid on that shit hole is less than two years.

 

More useless statistics. The 2005 Grand had 19 events while they're up to 24 events at the Sparta grand. Simple math. Adding more events will up the numbers.

 

This post from the guy that did not know you don’t have to have a photo I.D. to get classified. LOL

Great idea having the shoot in the gun hate state. They only CLASSIFIED a little more than 700 from Illinois.

 

Also the grand was heavily boycotted by OH the year of the announcement.

They will never move that place. The 2012Pull gang are still involved. Gipson has too much too lose.

 

Agree with the added events argument, but I think part of the debate is the financial viability of the Grand. It is the total paid entries that drives profit and the Grand seems to be doing very well. The increased target fees also drives profit. The question today is not viability of the ATA and the Grand, but if needs to generate that much profit. I agree with HB that delegates should be seeking answers as to if the ATA needs to generate this amount of money. If not, they can cut back on ATA fees, at least for a while.

 

For those not on the know or that are new to the site:

A few years ago the ATA published numbers showing they had 60,000 entries.

It was was this forum that caught the false numbers and forced the retraction. Nothing has changed.

 

You lost part one of the discussion when you inflated the entries from the Sparta grand. Like my wife said, the main reason for fewer events at the Vandalia Grand was the inability to accommodate the much larger numbers of shooters attending. Maybe we should also ask how much of the Vandalia income simply disappeared and where?

 

G.A.H number Is The Only Number That Is Important In My Opinion. You Can Add Events To Try And Make The Numbers More Favorable. But That 1 Event Compared To Other Years Tells The Story. There Are Roughly Half The Shooters There Used To Be At The Grand.

 

This is true Mike J, however you must remember that the ATA no longer has any ownership in a homegrounds.

And, it must be stressed that the profits are made from a much smaller group of members, from a continued decline each year, in the number of gun clubs throwing registered targets. Its to the ATA's peril if they overlook these concerns. This is what many on this forum have tried to get across to readers.

As oleolliedawg suggests, utilizing "total entries" of the Grand American Handicap tournament can also be understood to be useless when including all other relevant data.

Yes, its great for the organization to make those profits each year, but where are those profits coming from? Much of it is from an ever dwindling shooter base. That's not good.

Your graph "Event Entries" graph makes onlookers believe things aren't really that bad. The last 5 years at Sparta were very close to the last year at Vandalia (2005) with the last two Sparta year showing more entries. And, those last Sparta years are only a thousand or two less that the 1996-1998 Vandalia years. So, what's the problem?

Again, oleolliedawg has reminded readers of what has been stated on this forum several times over the years, ie. the difference in the total number of events.

Ollie gives the totals at 19 and 24. I tend to use 18 and 23, whereby eliminating the Champion of Champion event since it is not open to all and only has a few hundred entries.

The Vandalia Grands had 19 events from 1996-1998. Did you know that from 1999-2008 they only had 18 events?

In 2006, the first year at Sparta there were 19 events.
In 2007 a whopping 25 events.
In 2008 & 2009 22 events were staged.
In 2010 the program had 24 events.
In 2011 there were 21 events.
In 2012 to present, 23 events made up the program.

Again, these numbers eliminate the Champion of Champions event.

Using the number of entries from only 18 or 19 events of the Sparta Grands will show you the real story.

Just my view.

HB

 

HB, I don't disagree with anything you stated. Remember, the saying this year was that Fishburn went to Sparta to bailout the ATA. This is ridiculous and laughable. I believe you stayed out of that discussion but maybe you should state here what you think about that argument.

 

Isn't it funny how the Jim Jones "Kool Aid" jokes came all the way from from Guyana?

 

No one intelligent person would say that. He doesn't need to get into the HOF. Too bad the Martin money is drying up huh? Offer him another spot in the HOF.

Forgot to ask Mike....did you give your photo id to the classifier this year?

 

Does anyone believe in reincarnation ?????

I didn't post on the loss of the great graph makers thread, because I feel it would be disrespectful to someone who can not respond .....

But damn ..... it sure didn't take long for a reincarnation to occur ...... Someone trying to manipulate numbers and draw pictures to distort the views of the unknowing .....

Making more money off of fewer people, is a asinine way of saying the chosen few want to share this new found wealth among themselves .....

New found wealth from the sale of the home-grounds ... the home-grounds provided by a great effort from some long ago ..... using this wealth to create a Hedge-Fund for "profit" ..... and making the "Grand" a "white-collar" ONLY shoot at the expense of the Illinois tax-payers, who support the shit-hole the other 50 weeks per year, as a way to keep this "money-making Trapshooting charity's" new found wealth among themselves ..... Is something only a dumb-ass or one of the chosen few would brag about .....

What is your personal gain in this propaganda "Mike J" ??? You seem to have much more interest than a opposing view .....

 

Based on the above quote, doesn't stand to reason that there would be more events held at Sparta since it has the ability to accommodate more events?

 

I'm not too smart but can someone tell me what these $ figures for 2011 would be worth in 2019 money ?

Somehow putting the inflated dollar figures into play, I have a feeling the money isn't actually going up as it looks.

In 2011 we would pay $$$/ round of 100

Today we pay ? +++ $$$ / 100

One reason the coffers appear to be headed in a northern direction ?

 

If Sparta is going to be closed down sometime in the future, wouldn't it would be wise for the ATA to have as much funds as possible in their coffers to support a relocation?

 

Garry
what about the place gives it the ability to have more events? Cant wait for that answer!

 

That could be a possible answer Garry, but the delegates should ask because there is nothing in the minutes as to why there's a need to generate that much profit. For transparency, members should know.

 

Garry

I bite that bait. What gives the place the ability to have more events?

 

How much is enough in the "coffers" ???????

And ..... if you believe the last "relocation story" ..... the ATA waited until "they had to move to Sparta" because "there was not enough time" to "build or consider any other place" ..... So, why make the same mistake twice ????? Move while you have time ..... The State can, and did, close the place at will and at any time ....

Will they learn anything from the past relocation failure ????? Or, just move where the "white-collar" chosen few can self-profit the most .....

 

Mike Jay,

When they close the lid on The Ol' $hit Hole, how much money will still be owed for the construction of THOF Bldg.?

AND, who will get stuck with the bill?

 

But our fearless leader just reiterated Sparta will be there almost forever. Is he lying?

 

Oh, that's right, the man behind the curtain tried to find out what happened to all that missing income and promptly was fired. Only a blind man can't see an issue there.

 

Less shooters.

 

More than it cost to build the Cardinal Center. How much money has Mr. Fishburn already spent on the Cardinal Center ?

 

Transparency is not a strong suit of ATA management although it should be.

 

Are you serious ?????? The "Cardinal Center" has much more to offer than "Sparta" ..... just fewer "traps" .....

So ..... If the ATA is so happy at "Sparta", they would be happy at a place with far less "money spent" then at the "Cardinal Center" .....

FWIW ..... I have been to, and shot at both places ..... So when people try to use one in comparison to the other ..... it is OBVIOUS who has NOT .....

 

The $1,000,000 from the sale of the home grounds is not a lot of money to invest !

 

User 1, here's the question you asked:

. Your reply was in response to my comment about the cost to relocate the Grand in the future.

I answered and said:

Yes, I am serious. If the Grand has to relocate for whatever reason, to someplace other than a current trapshooting facility, I believe it will cost more money than what it cost to build the Cardinal Center.

 

Easy answer : what did Sparta cost (total)?

 

Sometimes it is difficult to follow the logic of some posters on this site. On one hand the Grand is dying because of the smaller GAH numbers. When it is pointed out that the entries are reasonably keeping pace in light of the drastic reduction of shooters from "affected states" the argument now turns to the number of events. As Garry pointed out, less shooters will provide the opportunity for more events all of which favor the appetite of shooters chasing AA points. Who is the loser in all this? Surely not the ATA. Of course the boycott is not having it's intended effect. Time to move on for the good of the sport.

 

If it's that easy, please just tell us the answer.

 

Garry,
Several years ago there were posts in other places that estimated the total cost of Sparta, Illinois upon completion was going to be $50 million, at the time it was stated that there was $28 Million invested in the facility known as the WSRC in Sparta, Ill so obviously there were things to be done and or completed to the tune of another 22 million dollars ... I personally have never been to the facility but several friends of mine have been and while discussing the facility they say nothing else has been done other than the Hall of Fame building, so there is nothing evident that another 22 Millions dollars had been extended for the completion ... There was never any mention of what was yet to be added to the facility so it would be considered completed ... I scoured the States web site and cannot find anything one way or the other so it would be any body's guess how much the facility in Sparta cost or if it is in fact even completed ... Logical people would figure it would show up someplace besides being listed as a State Park, but this is Illinois we are talking about so any thing is possible ... I am well beyond caring about the WSRC or the State of Illinois for that matter or I might invest the time digging deeper ...
I did see where it generated 1.1 millions dollars and the cost to operate and maintain it exceeded 3 millions 2 or 3 years ago ... (adds to the States deficit annually ) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Much of the initial building cost was infrastructure .....

If you build at a abandoned strip mine in BFE ..... the electric, water, waste water, roads, and everything else needs to support a place where an inflated number of people were supposed to go shoot for trinkets and points .....

Building enough traps and a CEB to handle 1978 shooters wouldn't cost near as much in civilization .....

 

If fewer shooters actively shooting ATA targets was the goal when moving the Grand to Sparta then the ATA succeeded wildly. We once had quite a few local clubs throwing registered targets. At least three quit, one more probably will this year and the one left throws far fewer targets. I see your math skills are again suspect. Yes, when you increase the number of events from 18 to 23 the number of participants will certainly show an increase. Just a numbers play. As someone said, the numbers of shooters in the GA handicap are the one true indication of a significant downward trend.

 

Garry,

I apologize, I just assumed that there was a general understanding of the overall cost (real estate, infrastructure, improvements, etc.) of the facility. It seemed reasonable to "guestimate" that a new facility, from scratch, would easily cost as much as TOSH(The Ol' $hit Hole) and that planners could use it as a model to prepare future cost estimates.

But really, all this gnashing of teeth and clutching of pearls is moot. The ATA is a dead man walking. When Illinois shits the bed, the ATA will be completely and irrevocably HOMELESS, unless, of course, the leadership is willing to resign en masse in an act honor. The recent past is a textbook example of pathetic failure. It is time to start facing the future, not because it is easy, but because it is the right thing to do.

 

Success lies in the eyes of the beholder. However, the ATA is well off financially not sure how you can argue against that. Trap including registered is doing very well in NY. I heard you guys will be building a sporting clays course at the PA homeground to help pay for the facilities. Maybe that might help trap because sporting clays shooter tend to do very well in trap.

 

That's the same thing they said about the Titanic....before it hit the iceberg.

They also say that you go bankrupt two ways...very slowly, at first, and then very fast. Time to grow up. Spreading taqiyya around here just won't work. I wonder, do Sikhs practice Taqiyya?

 

If NY is doing so great then how does PA draw nearly twice as many participants when the Eastern Zone shoot is held there? You tend to forget when a former facility manager hired a private accountant to look into the ATA's financials he was promptly fired with a non-disclosure clause.

 

Simple you have a much larger facility than us and NY tend to support PA more than PA supports us proportion wise (number of shooters). I have many very good PA friends so I don't want this to be a pissing contest between NY and PA.

 

And PA sent 123 shooters to the Grand, with NY only sending 45. And of those 45, only 29 participated in Event #24.

 

Maybe in PA we're smart enough to realize ATA shooting is going by the way of the Titanic. Nearly a 50% drop in entries over a 10 year period should show a bit of downward trend even to a naysayer. Congrats to PA for being proactive while the rest languish.
By the way, a much larger facility in Sparta hasn't done squat for attendance.

 

Then may I suggest that you zip up your pants and turn off your computer.

 

Mike J your figures show roughly a 20% drop in Illinois shooters attending the grand from the first year till this year. Why is that , are they part of the Ohio and Pa boycott?

 

Maybe same reason why OH dropped by roughly 20% from 1999 vs 2005 at Vandalia.

 

So you think they (ATA) are well off financially, if by chance they had no choice but to re locate for some or what ever reason based on the figures that have been stated how far would 19 Million dollars get them ..? The initial investment in Sparta was claimed to be 28 million (???) ( that would be 9 million short on the ATA's side ), if the claims of $50 million (completed) are or were accurate that leaves the ATA $31 million short based on having assets of $19 million (prices from 14 years ago) … The way things been going for and with the ATA, I seriously doubt you are going to get the current membership to Pony up and make up the difference after the ATA pissed off just about every shooter on its membership with the exception of a few thousand … The ATA was collecting fees some years ago on each entry ($1.00) for a new HOME GROUNDS, (was stated in the programs ) not to become renters … Those fees got spent on trap machines which again pissed off most of the members with the exception of a few hundred, maybe 1,000 … It was deception and it continues yet today (HOF building for the State of Ill) which does not add strength to the ATA's position by any means … Trap is not hurting or dying, the ATA is because of their own actions … The very same people that will go and shoot 2 , 3, 4 days a week at any certain club will not shoot registered because the ATA benefits by it with the collection of daily fees … Piss off your customers they may not go away, they will just go away from you (ATA) , and that is what is happening over and over again... $19 million ain't going to get a Home Grounds built, I doubt the sugar Daddies they got paying the freight are going to set them up in business at the Sparta location or any other for that matter … Ice is getting thin and it's getting warm out kids so be careful out there … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Mike J.

The line forms on the right for those to eat their words, bag of chips with that Sir ..? WPT … (YAC) …

 

WPT,

Who in their right mind would ever let the EC select another location?

 

Phantom, no need to apologize to me, but thanks anyway.

 

Then why have so many trap clubs closed and others are hanging on by their fingernails ?

 

Their nineteen million wouldn't go far after the corruption and graft was takin out. Look what they ended up paying for a $75,000 office building and a horse barn in the end. The money they have would disappear like shit through a tin horn.

 

Garry
I can walk to 5 trap clubs in a morning. NE Ohio. Tell me what clubs in my area are closing. ATA is not the sport. Tell me what you know.

 

Mike keeps referencing NY (as if he shoots trap) but did not know you don’t need a photo I’d at the NY classification desk. Lol

 

Mike J, Ohio and Pa followed up on what they said they were going to do, Illinois was going to make up the difference, not boycott. The move to Sparta has hurt the outlaying states around Ohio more than Ohio. Look at the numbers of each state's states shoots since the move.

Oh ya and the state that Gibson comes from, just next door to Sparta (Mo) sent more than 50% FEWER shooters to Sparta this year compared to the first Sparta Grand, Why's that?

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...82D011A770C6529DAD2D82D011A770C6529&FORM=VIRE

Even Paul Shaw was, and perhaps still is, on the Need To Know list.

Listen to his speech above from 2011 and you will see why he was elected by the N. East to become a Vice President.

Perhaps he will be able to bring about transparency during his terms in office.

Want to really get Peed Off ???

Just listen to what REALLY happened !!!

 

I truly believe Mr. Paul Shaw is a man of Honor and Integrity, problem being he is sitting in a den of thieves who will not let anyone destroy the benefits they reap and get to the Cash Cow … Paul is but one man and he is grossly out numbered so there would be serious doubt he can develop a higher degree of transparency in a short period of time … There have been ED's hired and let go before they set up their office, seems like Gipson is a good fit so he stays (what does that tell you about Gipson ?) , who just happens to get the bids for reclaiming the shot and then he makes his bid much to every ones surprise he will probably get the job … The ATA is being referred to as another Swamp that needs to be flushed and cleaned for the betterment of the organization and the membership … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Possibly poor management and customer care or appreciation ..? I can only tell you about clubs in the area where I live and they have no shortage of business, because of the high heat most shoot early and leave … I am going to go up there (even in the heat ) and see what's going on … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Brad, like I said many times the Grand is not hurting the rich is having fun being able to shoot 2,600 targets in 10 days with the highest competition factor. The poor now shoot locally many in leagues. Trap is alive and kicking where I live.

But Brad, OSTA really only have about $43k in it's name? I thought you said they had 3/4 million.

 

Mike J,

I didn't comment on the discussion because I considered it just as you did, "ridiculous and laughable."

But, it was you who initially made the statement, which you attributed your unnamed source.

My advice . . . . . . . get a better source.

HB

 

I am at a loss, which comment are you referring to??

 

Any Body notice Mike J. Does not respond to a question ? Blowing smoke and makes no sense what so ever … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Ya Think? LOL

 

I respond to sensible questions not innuendos. What was the question if there was one?

 

Reposted so Mike J. can answer the questions that are asked in plain english ... Quit blowing smoke and get real ...


So you think they (ATA) are well off financially, if by chance they had no choice but to re locate for some or what ever reason based on the figures that have been stated how far would 19 Million dollars get them ..? The initial investment in Sparta was claimed to be 28 million (???) ( that would be 9 million short on the ATA's side ), if the claims of $50 million (completed) are or were accurate that leaves the ATA $31 million short based on having assets of $19 million (prices from 14 years ago) … The way things been going for and with the ATA, I seriously doubt you are going to get the current membership to Pony up and make up the difference after the ATA pissed off just about every shooter on its membership with the exception of a few thousand … The ATA was collecting fees some years ago on each entry ($1.00) for a new HOME GROUNDS, (was stated in the programs ) not to become renters … Those fees got spent on trap machines which again pissed off most of the members with the exception of a few hundred, maybe 1,000 … It was deception and it continues yet today (HOF building for the State of Ill) which does not add strength to the ATA's position by any means … Trap is not hurting or dying, the ATA is because of their own actions … The very same people that will go and shoot 2 , 3, 4 days a week at any certain club will not shoot registered because the ATA benefits by it with the collection of daily fees … Piss off your customers they may not go away, they will just go away from you (ATA) , and that is what is happening over and over again... $19 million ain't going to get a Home Grounds built, I doubt the sugar Daddies they got paying the freight are going to set them up in business at the Sparta location or any other for that matter … Ice is getting thin and it's getting warm out kids so be careful out there … WPT … (YAC) …


Questions contained in this are for Mike J. to answer , please do not avoid answering them ...

 

WPT, since when a business has to have all the money upfront to pay for an investment?? All you need is good financial position to be able to get loans etc. Hope I answered your question.

 

Mike J. once again avoiding answers and blowing smoke ... He obviously does not have a grasp on or understand what has been going on for years ... Would be a great Politician, blows smoke and avoids answers ... Talks like a man with a paper asshole ... There was another guy who talked in circles, he died ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Obviously has no knowledge of what was offered to the ATA in Texas, free money, low interest money for infrastructure, close to all amenities (14 miles) , OWNERSHIP, etc ... Go blow smoke, drink kool aid and wear your rose colored glasses someplace where you will fit right in ...

 

Jeez, I thought I answered the only question posed in your essay and this is the response I get.

 

If a REAL bank auditor took a look at the ATA financials, he'd laugh 'em out the door.

[this guy Mike Jay is getting way too much air time. All he spews is useless propaganda and meaningless BS. It seems pointless to waste any more time on him]

 

TEXAS??? Ride on cowboy. Seems like the ATA made the correct decision over Texas.

 

"Mike J" ...... you can start being respectful, or be gone ..... your choice .....

Think before you post any reply ...... and research my short fuse ...... again, your choice .....

 

In Post #13 you referred to a statement regarding Mr. Fishburn, which I quoted at the top of my Post #62.

It was you who first mentioned the "ridiculous and laughable" statement made in other discussions.

I refer you to your comments in the below threads:

Have fun out there in Marengo, OH- Cardinal Center @ Cardinal Classic - sid (Post #10 on Aug. 13)

The Cardinal Classic, some numbers to go with Family Guy’s pictures (Post #8 on Aug. 17)

I merely suggested you might consider finding a more creditable source.


HB

 

You are lucky if you have 5 trap clubs that you can walk to. I don't live in your state. You should be able to tell me how many trap clubs in your state have closed since the peak years of trapshooting.

I used to have 4 trap clubs within a 35 radius. Now there is only one left and it's on life support. This trap club does hold a few ATA shoots, the other 3 did not. Than have been hundreds of trap clubs that have closed across the nation since the peak years of trapshooting.

 

Trap clubs, shooting ranges are subject to urban sprawl in many areas ... Not all people are shooters nor do they take the time to get comfortable with guns even though one may save their life some day ... The ATA quit being an attraction some time back when the members got fed up with the internal workings, beside many have died off and are not being replaced by the next generation in many cases ... The AIM and SCPT (?) programs may help to some degree in the future but that remains to be seen ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

No Garry it was another one of your generalized unfounded statements about the clubs that are closing here. You tell me what clubs are closing here. It is your statement.

Tell me which ones as you say are hanging by their fingernails and which are closing. Warning....don't think you can post without being challenged. Your facts sir....?

And by the way...."I am not lucky" Ohio has done a great job promoting trap. You get what you deserve.

 

Ride on cowboy is an insult???? What about post 69 on this thread directed to me "
Would be a great Politician, blows smoke and avoids answers ... Talks like a man with a paper asshole ... There was another guy who talked in circles, he died ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
Obviously has no knowledge of what was offered to the ATA in Texas, free money, low interest money for infrastructure, close to all amenities (14 miles) , OWNERSHIP, etc ... Go blow smoke, drink kool aid and wear your rose colored glasses someplace where you will fit right in." Did you miss this??

 

HB - this is my comment fro the post 10 you quoted:

You guys made it look like Fishburn went to Sparta to help the ATA out. That's the biggest LIE!!!! Fishburn went there to expand his business interest but it might not have worked out...I don't know how it ended. The bottom line was to make greater use of Sparta NOT the CC. And that's the whole truth.

If you know this is not correct you might want to clarify.

 

Mike J.
The more you talk the less sense you make, you are obviously trying to stir the pot for what ever reason you might have ... You do not answer questions when asked and just run on like you know what you are talking about ... Personally, I think you are a resident of Sparta, Ill and accustomed to the short comings of same ... Read what I posted and tell me how the ATA is in such great financial shape like you keep harping on ... Tell me how the ATA would be able to re locate and where if something, anything happened in the future and they had no choice but to move again ... The ATA having 19 Million dollars ain't going to get it done, that you can bet on ... IF Mr Fishburn offered them a way (Proposal) to preserve the ATA as a member organization into the future why or how would that be promoting his business in a self centered sort of way as you make it sound like is his intention ... He stepped up when the ATA changed direction and turned their backs on the members, now they are renters and the members get assessed to pay off a building the ATA will never own ...
You talk a lot and say absolutely nothing of substance or statements of fact ... I think you have been ignored and want the attention so you ramble on and on, next thing you know you will be making charts and graphs ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


How would you know what Mr Fishburns intention were, again talking like a fool and assuming ... Mr Fishburn does not need the ATA but you can bet the ATA damn sure needs Mr Fishburn or will at some time in the future ... You say" whole truth" like you know and you don't ...

 

I didn't "miss" anything ..... slow down enough to read the warning ..... the part about "trolling" .....

You provoke people until they lash out at you ..... your posting history vs the posting history of "wpt" is two different worlds .... so don't whine about what you were given ......

You get what you give ..... I would like to see you do far less provoking, and see you just use whatever factual information you may have .....

Post away about your love for the ATA ..... but, you avoided, twice, my question about your possible personal gain is in this pissing contest .....

 

Frankly, I am tired of wasting time here on this site. Why did you start the sentence in bold with IF???

I answered your question about the ATA using its financial strength to relocate if that should ever be necessary. You said $19M "ain't going to get it done, that you can bet on" who am I to argue with your expertise???

 

PROVE IT! If you can't prove it, take a hike!

 

I love trapshooting not the ATA. I don't have a problem with the ATA , as it is structured and run currently. I will until banned from the site defend the future of the Grand when it comes under ridiculous and laughable attacks.

 

Hopefully, the ATA will be bold enough to cover the meeting with Fishburn in it's minutes.

 

HOPE is not a strategy.

Stop defelecting. Prove your allegations like a man. If you can't or won't, leave here and don't come back. Your credibility is non-existent.

 

The 19 Million dollars in assets is the ATA's financial strength and once that is invested or put up to secure any money that would be needed beyond that they don't have anything because their financial strength would be held as collateral, anticipated income does not qualify ... The ATA had the State of Illinois build a monument to them self when the WSRC was constructed and it is and will always be a flop, can't draw a crowd ... If the ATA was to try and duplicate the WSRC in any logical location the cost would be at least what they claimed it was 14 years ago and probably more (inflation) so the 19 Million becomes a drop in the bucket and only one place to go, you can figure that one out for your self ... The ATA could assess the membership but I don't think you can borrow money on a anticipated income (Does not qualify) ...

I'm not saying the ATA will or will not end up at the Cardinal Center but if they did they could continue to make a profit on an annual basis, probably increase the attendance and not have the burdens of ownership nor would they have to put the assets up as collateral and count on a membership that is falling off to pay it off ... I guess we will all see when the time comes, until then its any body's guess and that is the "Whole Truth" ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

So only the poor shoot leagues but the rich shoot ATA. Maybe where you live but in our league we probably have more members shooting K-80's than 870's. That and the fact we sent a few ATA All-Americans out to Sparta land where they brought home trinkets. Maybe the rest of us poor bastards are smart enough not to waste time and gas, head to Cardinal Center and stop right there. Great close amenities and real good fishing too-not your kind. We're so poor I might soon be forced to sell my wife's Suhl grade K-80, my 12 yo son's Trap Special and mine too.

 

Don't worry, you don't have to drive to Sparta to contribute to the ATA. In fact, I think OH and PA contribute the most to the ATA other than IL.

 

Yes, there are many reasons why trap clubs have closed. But the hundreds of trap clubs that have closed or on life support is a red flag to me that trapshooting in general is hurting.

 

No Family Guy, I was not referring to the trap clubs in your state. I was referring to the hundreds of trap clubs that have closed down across the country since the peak years of trapshooting.

Prove your NO Garry quote or take a hike!

 

Quotes:

Dave Cichelli - New York State ATA Delegate

During the annual Board of Directors Meeting (delegates meeting), it was announced that the State of Illinois now has a budget and funding for the World Shooting Complex will continue. Also, the state now has a capital improvement budget so money can be spent at the World Shooting complex for improvements. It looks like the Grand will be staying in Sparta, Illinois for a long time.

Ian Darroch – Current All American PA

The time is here for our pilgrimage to Sparta, IL. for the Grand American World Trapshooting Championship held at the World Shooting & Recreational Complex. My favorite shoot of the year, it is one of the most unique experiences in our sport and is one of the most worthwhile trips if you are an avid trapshooter like I am. ...

The Grand probably has the best variety of vendors compared to just about every other shoot in our sport.

 

Harry. Got a list of those clubs. You proved my point by saying there arent any in my state. Hundreds in PA? What states? You know the clubs. Trapshooting is doing well In trapshooting states. Do I have to remind you the ata does not represent much of trapshooting? And you did say across the country right? Doesn’t that include OH and PA. But like you admitted. You haven’t shot for 30 years.

Did you know a big place was built in Ohio?

 

Hey Mike. The state of Illinois does not have a budget for anything. Maybe you can provide that. Some IL state reps would be surprised.

 

HB was right
This guy is just trolling
I told you guys to ignore him and that I would handle it.
His whole propaganda shtick is comparing what is supposed to be the biggest shoot of the year to a shoot at the CC

Without even knowing it he is proving that it should be.
1,978 is proof enough. I would say they can't get any worse but that just wouldn't be true.

Hahaha, The "extra" fee to pay those loans off should be a doozy. LOL I hope you and your deep pocket friends have to cough up more than the thousands you said you would.

Make sure you come back on our site when they close that place and have to move. Unlike that outpost we will still be here.

Never responded to the post about ragging all the shooters from the states that were supposed to make up the difference did he?

Sparta sucks, c'mon VJ, how's that for provoking a response? I mean Mikej

 

This is just more of the same old drivel. The Illinois "budget" is old news and has been examined here recently. Your quote is a misrepresentation of the facts. Further, what Ian Darroch thinks and 99 cents will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11. Nobody cares what he thinks.

You have proved beyond any doubt that you have no integrity and no credibility. Please withdraw from this website. You have become a laughingstock. Your dishonest propaganda is counterproductive to the spirit of Americantrapshooter.Com. and it is unwelcome.

 

I thought if you knew somebody's identity it was to be kept off this site per Joe's instruction. Wonder what Joe has to say. Anyway, I see my LinkedIn account getting lots of "look up" so it seems word is passing around.

 

I was busy getting paid and it IS a little dark here at Resorts casino

 

Family guy I hope you calling me Harry was a typo. Your comment about not shooting trap for 30 is not only inaccurate but disrespectful as it implies I am out of the loop, which I am not. I have stated that I have not shot ATA trap for 30 plus years. I have not stated that I haven't shot trap for 30 plus years. Your comment asking if I knew a big place was built in Ohio is also disrespectful and uncalled for. Your comment do I have to remind you the ata does not represent much of trapshooting is also disrespectful and uncalled for.

 

Garry. Or Harry with the typo, Answer the questions about your statement. Name the clubs in oh and pa that are hanging on. It should be easy. Hundreds you say across the us. And sorry the facts offend you. Prepare for more.