It seems to me like many of the complaints with ATA trapshooting are somehow tied to the word Money. Who's winning it, who's not winning it, how much money is currently available compared what there was years ago, sandbagging to win money, using FTF to win money, etc.. Since ATA trapshooting is an amateur sport, what would happen if there was zero money available to win and zero trophies other than ribbons. If there was zero money to win with a score, FTF would be less of an issue, sandbagging for money would be eliminated, and the clubs that throw ATA targets would or should be better off financially to the point where they could reduce the cost to shoot trap and maybe increase their membership. This would not exclude the option to win money by a raffle. Shooters who want a chance of winning money could buy raffle tickets for X dollars a ticket an then a drawing would be held to determine the money winners. I and I suspect most others did not take up ATA trapshooting to win money. If you look at "Why Join the ATA" on the ATA website, the word money is not mentioned. There is a very small percent of ATA shooters who win enough money to break even. Some has said that most of the money shooters left the ATA when the big money left. If that is true, then the question becomes, how many of the active ATA shooters would quit shooting ATA targets if only raffle money was available and how many new shooters would join the ATA if the cost to shoot ATA was lowered to be comparable with the cost to shoot non-ATA.
Anybody that thinks you can make money trapshooting is as a nut. That being said some can and do make money from companies they indorse. Those shooters should be in industry class. If this ever happens again, I believe there will be an increase in shooters. There are some on this forum that likes to look at past years statistics, look at how attendance has dropped since the industry class was done away with. I love to shoot for money, but I know that with the price of my gun, shells, entry fees, options, and expense of getting to the shoots it is not a money making venture if I always win. I assure you I very seldom do, but if they take the options out of trapshooting they will take me out of trapshooting. I could care less about AA points, flashlights, or the little trinkets they give for trophies. If you put money on the line it will make you a better shooter. I also know it is not a money making venture. Raffles are as much a suckers game as trapshooting for money, but like options I do them too. For there to be one big winner there has to be a lot of little losers, and I am determined to do my part for the sake of the sport and even the sandbaggers. This sport needs everybody!!!
In my pool playing youth even putting .25 or .50 on the line made you work harder not to lose. Later, those $20 bets on a game made it even more interesting.
Often it can have the opposite effect. Patch 2 and oleolliedawg, was the opportunity to win money the primary driver for your decision to join the ATA? Raffles level the playing the playing field. Everyone who buys a raffle ticket has the same odds of their ticket being drawn. A raffles does not have to mean the winner takes all the money in pot. This money could be distributed across additional tickets that are drawn. Patch 2 and oleolliedawg, I don't have clue on how much money in total is paid out to ATA shooters annually in addition to the cost of trophies, but I don't think it's a small number. If this money was used to reduce the cost to shoot ATA targets, do you think more shooters would join the ATA than those who would stop shooting ATA ?
Competition and betting on one's own ability or someone else's is like chocolate on vanilla ice cream. They simply go together. And that's generally true in every sport. Betting is voluntary, those who wish to gamble can. Those that are in the game for prestige, so be it. Those that are in the game for fun, good. It's a wide-open game for everyone to participate however they choose.
What amateur or professional sports allow the players to legally bet on themselves or their team ? Why should amateur trapshooting be any different?
I asked you a question. If you can't defend your hypothesis, then why did you ask? Life is not a one-way street.
If money is the answer, why hasn't one of the large venues picked 10 days or 2 weeks in June or September and hosted a big money shoot?
Simple, it's easier to write out a check to Harlan or several of the under-handicapped attendees and save the ammo and target fees than try to compete. Besides, you probably have a better chance at the casino than beating professional trapshooters. Since trinket shooters now prevail attendance would suffer.
Garry, the money paid out to ATA shooters comes out of the shooters pockets. Entry fees pay for the trophies. If you want to shoot practice only without trophies or money options then patronize your local practice only local two trap clubs and don't let them sucker you into playing a $2 Lewis bet. That said, as a former ATA affiliated gun club I can assure you it was far easier to recruit new ATA members when mentioning the opportunity for earning thousands of $$ by attending the GA in Vandalia and shooting a good score. I doubt pewter plates, flashlights and belt buckles would accomplish the same thing.
I began shooting registered trap in 1966. I have shot more than my share of significant shoots though I never made the trek to the Grand. Yes, some folks used to make some money shooting handicap events and playing the options. Heck, I saw Daro Handy win a small car in Las Vegas and for several years they always gave one. But event the REALLY good shooters made chump change. Most of them also taught seminars or ran a gunclub or something like that to supplement their sport. But there has never, in my lifetime, been any REAL money in trapshooting. Not like other sports. Compare it to big boy sports like football, baseball, hockey, golf, tennis or even Olympic level track and field and winter sports. Trapshooting doesn't even move the economic needle. Even in this modern era when people make very significant incomes by simply having a lot of "followers" on the internet (they call themselves "influencers"), trapshooters don't get a following which will pay them much at all. Better face reality. For sports to be moneymaking for the players they have to be spectator sports. People buying tickets or turning on the TV to see the events and people buying equipment because their heroes are endorsing/using that equipment. Even trapshooters will seldom watch other shooters for very long. It is dull to watch. And, because there is no way to see a close miss there is no excitement. Think of Poker. That game couldn't draw flies before someone figured out to show the hole cards of the players on TV during the game. Then it exploded and is still going pretty darn strong. But how are you going to show the close misses in trap to make it exciting? (Not to mention that in ATA trap there are darn few misses exciting or not.) Quit talking about the "good old days" when there was money in the game. There was never any real money. Not in the modern era. Jake
Phantom, "Since ATA trapshooting is an amateur sport, what would happen if"... "Why should amateur trapshooting be any different?" My two questions above are not hypothesis.
I agree. The ATA shooters end up paying for everything that goes on within the ATA, with the exception of donated money.
C'mon Garry, don't flatline on me. You have a position! Your position is that TAKING MONEY OUT OF TRAPSHOOTING will make it honorable and respectable and that honor and respectability will draw new meat to the sport. Your premise is that money is the root of all evil. Please tell us the story about Jesus and the Money Changers. You have a faulty and thereby failed premise. I don't accept your premise. Your hypothesis, which is based on a faulty premise, is also faulty, and thus a failure. I've known a lot of guys who like gun related sporting activities. I never met one who was looking for a Preacher. Wouldn't it be fun to get out four or five bottles of real good whisky, a couple of decks of cards, and a group of men who liked engaging in the gentle art of placing a friendly wager? Crack open a keg of nails, as my Granddaddy used to say. I don't believe that money is the root of all evil. I believe that evil people are the root of all evil. Evil people come in all shapes, colors and sizes. I believe people who spend too much time assuming that they know how other people should live and behave, are in fact the evil ones.
Why should you agree? If you want to play you gotta pay. If you don't have the skills to rise above minimum wage just take your Mossberg 500 with rails and blast away at your local $3/25 volunteer shooting club. You'll be welcomed with open arms.
Phantom and oleolliedawg, I suggest you re-read my original post. Phantom, I asked the question, what would happen IF ... What if does not suggest or imply a position on a subject. A what if, is looking for input on a subject. Phantom, it was you who brought up the name Jesus. You are completely wrong when you said my "premise is that money is the root of all evil". Here is what I believe about money. I believe Jesus when he said through the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."
No offense to anyone but if money is the root of all evil then Hell must be one big Pigeon ring. Which options would you like to play today? Why, all of them of course! And would you like to get into the Calcutta? Hell yes, oh sorry, I mean of course I would. That's why I'm here. I see that head guy from PETA is here too? Yes, that's him. He is one of the bird boys.
