Handicap numbers down OSTA - Kiner 2 minus 2 ?

What happens when the handicap system is destroyed by hot shells and easy targets?

Answer: Phil Kiner complex. Remember the one time two yard reduction, that the ATA gave twice?

 

The system was destroyed by voice pulling systems and the failure to move top handicap shooters farther back. No, there's not a wall, cliff or precipice behind the current 27 yd. line that will prevent adding a bank or two of more concrete at most large venues. Of course, that is contrary to Sir Neils accumulation of charts and graphs that prove otherwise. Others may argue it's possible to earn more yardage past the 27 without winning or placing high enough to get it. I'm always confused by that argument. So the ATA, with all their accumulated wisdom, decided points instead of money would be the big draw. Not a very bright idea I see.

 

Might want to double check your numbers. There were 6 handicap events at the Ohio State shoot. Looks like 3 of the events were down and 3 were up vs last year’s entries. Added together the handicap events were up over last year’s numbers. Given the crappy weather we had I’m very surprised by the number of entries. However, just like most major shoots these days, the entries are way down compared to the glory days. Add all that information up and what does it mean? Hell if I know!

 

STaT mAn STaN, I expect statistics and stats from you not proclamations. You disappoint me because the stats to back your statements up are out their but you haven't provided them to us. Merlo never falls down on the job like that. Do your job and give us the facts, just the facts.

If you need a hint check Bob Stuart's web page and you can find the stats on there. On a side note I shot with Phil for many years and we used to room together a lot back in the day and I called him about his idea and told him that someone would lay the blame for this bad idea at his feet sometime in the future, thanks for making my prediction come true.

Everything that was said about how great for handicap shooting the 2 yards off and the 2 yards off would be has failed to come true. Check what I said about it back then. I could launch into all that again but what's the use.

 

The poster that put up the cartoon of a guy beating the proverbial dead horse took it down

Maybe the horse had it coming

 

Heck..if Mr Kiner’s one time 2 yard reduction was a good idea twice then imagine how great it would be if they did it again. ANYONE REMEMBER TARGET GATE?

 

Oliolliedawg is correct. The only way to equalize the handicap system is to ADD YARDAGE. It is a NO BRAINER.
Have I mentioned this before? Roger C.

 

Another easy way to equalize the handicap system would be to add 15 mph to handicap target speeds. Be a lot cheaper than moving trees/light poles/sidewalks/etc. and pouring new concrete. The end result of adding speed would be to add a couple of yards to the muzzle-to-target-break distance AND to increase difficulty slightly.
Adding speed would not affect the short-yardage shooters nearly as much as the longer-yardage shooters.
Or....?

 

I like Mudpacks idea.
How about increasing the angles also, say hole 4 ?
I'm old and decrepit but I'm up for a new challenge.

Regards.....Gerald

 

I have a question that needs a factual answer. When the yardage was increased from 25 to 27 yards, did that action equalize the handicap system during the following 20 years ?

 

Garry...Good question. I joined ATA in 1974 and there were a lot of top 27ydrs. at that time.
Good question for H.B.

Regards....Gerald

 

Garry, Gerald, Mudpack, Any thing you would do to the target flights will affect the less accomplished shooters more than it will the good shooters. The 27 yard shooters did not get there by being lucky. They got there by being the best of the lot.
Did it help the average shooter when they narrowed the angles, and softened up the speed? The better shooters all moved to the long yardage. You can not make good shooters from people that just do not have the ability or the dedication to rise to the championship level.
We should go back to the wider angles, the 50 yrd. target,with a height of 8 to 10 feet. then add 3 more yards to the handicap. There are probable less than 2% of the shooters that are capable of moving to the max. yardage. With voice calls there are few clubs that would need to add concrete to the 30 yard line on more than one field. Roger C.

 

I have another question that needs a factual answer. What percent of the ATA handicap events were won by 27 yard shooters during the last ten years?

 

MP, I liked your post and am in favor of ANYTHING which makes trapshooting more challenging. But to increase the speed of targets only for handicap could cause signifigant complications in shoots where they finish the singles and then go on to handicap and often for multiple days. Having to accurately reset every trap between each event would take a bunch of time and manpower.
Heck, just make em' all faster.
But then we are back to the oldest debate we all have. 2 hole or 3? How fast/far to throw? And, while we are at it, let's discuss this stupid FTF rule?
This horse does not have much old beat up skin and bones to beat on anymore.
Sigh.
Watching this sport die is painful.
Jake

Oh, and one other thing.
The idea off "handicap" and "handicapping an event" is to make it harder for those more proficient at that thing than for those not so good at it. Increasing the speed of targets does not give any more "handicap" room between better and weaker shooters. Increasing maximum distance would be much better at leveling the playing field so a "handicap event" would truly do what it is supposed to do.
But then, the VERY OLD demographic of trapshooters seems to have forgotten the purpose of a "handicap" event.

 

MP, I liked your post and am in favor of ANYTHING which makes trapshooting more challenging. But to increase the speed of targets only for handicap could cause signifigant complications in shoots where they finish the singles and then go on to handicap and often for multiple days. Having to accurately reset every trap between each event would take a bunch of time and manpower.
Heck, just make em' all faster.
But then we are back to the oldest debate we all have. 2 hole or 3? How fast/far to throw? And, while we are at it, let's discuss this stupid FTF rule?
This horse does not have much old beat up skin and bones to beat on anymore.
Sigh.
Watching this sport die is painful.
Jake

Oh, and one other thing.
The idea off "handicap" and "handicapping an event" is to make it harder for those more proficient at that thing than for those not so good at it. Increasing the speed of targets does not give any more "handicap" room between better and weaker shooters. Increasing maximum distance would be much better at leveling the playing field so a "handicap event" would truly do what it is supposed to do.
But then, the VERY OLD demographic of trapshooters seems to have forgotton the purpose of a "handicap" ev

 

Garry, Do some of your own checking. Check when the 27 yarders started their winning streaks, compare them to the dates when the ATA quite enforcing the rules. A good place to start is with the Grand hdk. winners. Then move to the percentage of shooters that were on the 27 yrd. line with the old rules, compare that two how many are now there.
Please post your findings. Roger C.
PS; keep in mind there were more shooters 10-20 years ago than there are now.

 

Roger's here's a chart showing the number of Grand American Handicap champions by yardage assignment. Don't let them assign you to the 25 or 25.5 yard line.

 

Roger, sorry for the typo and punctuation with your name in post #17.

How does this GAH distribution over these 78 years look to you ?

 

Something needs to change, perfection should be an oddity not the norm. Could you imagine the PBA championship with 10% bowling a 300?

 

Garry, What I wanted you to see is when the long yardage shooters started to dominate the game. It started after the ATA let clubs cheat on the rules of target flights. With the easier targets the better shooters were able to make perfection the only way to win. It did not help the average shooter.
The leaders of the ATA morphed the game of TRAP into a feel good sport. Because of their inability to enforce the rules, we lost many shooters, they messed with the money payouts, thus loosing the money shooters. Never enter a purse that says high gun. Poor management has ruined a once great sport. Roger C.

 

Where I shoot, the handicap events on a particular field/trap machine takes place after the singles events are done.
Would it be possible to simply record the number of cranks/etc. it takes to adjust the speed of the machine once the singles are done and the handicaps are about to begin (maybe at the same time they are reloading the machines with targets?) so the extra time would be but a few minutes?
If this procedure/rule change was implemented, the time it takes to adjust the speed would just be part of the whole process. No change will be painless, but something needs to be changed. What would be the least cumbersome change? That is the question.

 

The average handicap score is around 87%. A few of the "big dogs" are carrying mid 90's handicap averages. So making it tougher on the weekend hackers by increasing target distances and believing it will somehow equalize the competition is a fantasy at best. Guns, ammunition and voice releases made the current fence much easier. Time to move 'em back!

 

Facts being the facts many of the 27 yard shooters (Big Dogs) are professionals mixed in with Amateurs, the amateurs finally caught on and figured out the odds were against them unless they had an exceptional day so they quit playing the money ... The resistance to adding more yardage to separate the "Pro's" from the amateur is part of what keeps the sport from growth and will keep the money shooters out of the game until and if something gets done to change it ...There are other alternatives but the "Pro's " do not want them initiated because it will cut into their pay outs because others will be getting a part of it ... If ("IF") the 27 yard shooters were classified much the same way 16 yard shooters are it might bring back some of the money shooters in due time ... The programs exist to separate the Pro's from the average 27 yard shooter (Man or woman) with the touch of a button but the (Big Dog ) "Pro's" would have fits if their feeding frenzy was eliminated or modified in any way ...
Classifications :
27-AA ( Pro's , teachers, sponsored shooters etc )

27-A (Average 27 yard shooter)

27- B ( based on averages, in each classification)

27 -C ( continuation of above ) ...

Each class would shoot for its own money, Ladies could be classified as such or be blended into the classifications ( given the option) above which would increase every ones chance at winning more money and not be concerned about shooting against the "Pro's" and having them pick your pockets ... Just a few ideas and me thinking out loud ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Look what they did with the PGA. All of the courses have been lengthened. Either that or redesigned to make it tougher to cut corners with the added distance that the equipment has changed the game. Even though the long distance hitters are are putting it out there, they now have to be very accurate. The rough is thicker and longer, sand traps have been added, and the fairways have been narrowed. The shorter hitters are still winning tournaments simply because they keep the ball in play. A 300 yd. drive down the middle is still better that a 380 yd. drive into the water or woods. The big hitters are winning tournaments still also. They have to still perform in all aspects of the game to do so.

As was mentioned with todays shells, scientifically designed and measured barrels to chokes, along with guns being custom fitted, those that shoot the most are simply going to be the best in the sport. Handicap is supposed to even out the field. Being as this is the Amateur Trapshooting Association and there is no pro category level, distance being added to the yardage would be the likely solution.

The thing is right now, the shorter distance shooters that have not necessarily moved back in yardage because of average scores, do have an advantage somewhat, because all it takes is to have one of those really good days where your in the zone to win it. The "Pros" need a really good "Zone" day to win.

It seems the winners are grouped mostly in the 18-22 yard category. Maybe move the starting yardage back to the 21 or 22. See if that changes the winning yardages percentage. If that in fact adds winners to the 27, then maybe consider adding yardage to the pads. Right now it seems the advantage goes to the beginning - middle distance shooters.

 

Roger, my chart showing the GAH winners from 1939 to 2017, does not show that 27 yard shooters are dominating this event. The 20 and 22 yard shooters have both won the GAH more times that the 27 yard shooters.

I can't see how the loss of 'money' shooters' or the handicapping system, easier targets or 27 yard shooters can possibly account for and be the major reasons for the low turnout of shooters at ATA shoots and the number of trap clubs across the nation that have shutdown compared to the pre-Sparta era.

Roger, you know that I am not a fan of ATA management. I was taught in business class that if a company is not growing they are dying. Pipelayer is on record saying that at every EC meeting, the EC members discuss how to grow the ATA. Lynn G. suggested and the EC approved a budget for free finger food as a way to increase attendance during pre-Grand America week.

It obvious to me, but not to ATA management, that they need to hire a professional firm with with a proven track record of turning around a dying organization.

Garry

 

stl flyn, I have shot over 350,000 registered targets. Mostly shot with all Americans. We never worried about the 22-24 yard shooters. We kept our eyes on the 27 yard shooters. That was where the competitors stood.
I have mentioned before the only way to even come close to equalizing handicap shooting is to ADD yardage. Anything else is going to hamper the short yardage shooters.
Why is this so hard to understand???????? Roger C.

 

Well, anyway you look at it, it will involve more work, concrete or rules.
With declining registered shooting as well as places to shoot, pulling that "Magic Rabbit" out of the hat will be a formidable task.

Regards.....Gerald

 

Garry, You are still missing my point. Before the ATA LET THE CHEATERS quit obeying the rules, you are correct. They did not enforce the rules on target flights. Then they changed the rules so that the cheaters could obey the rules. These rule changes did not help the average shooters. The good shooters got better the average stayed the same. Roger C.

 

Hmmm...first you say increasing target distances will not equalize competition. ^

Then you say we should increase the distance:

You are confusing me.

 

Gerald, Isn't that what the EC is supposed to do. Improve the sport. Some times in business you must spend some money in order to rejuvenate your customer base. That is a basic business practice. Changing the rules back to what worked for many years will not cost anything. The cost of adding yardage to one field on all clubs that have ATA events, is a small price to pay to improve attendance.
There is no standing still in any business. It is either moving fore ward or sliding backward. Never standing still.
The EC and BOD do not seem to understand the basics of running a successful operation. That money that they have in investments should be used to further the organization. Not to look good on a balance sheet. They are not good at the job they applied for such as keeping the organization in good standing with the membership.
Men of honor and vision started the ATA. We need the same qualities in our leaders to keep it viable. We need some changes to be made for the good of our sport. Roger C.

 

Mudpack, Oleollidawg, Said to increase yardage not target distance. Re read his post. Roger C.

 

Roger,
Please educate me. Why do you believe the current handicapping system is favoring the 27 yard shooters so much that we need a 30 yard line? The GAH chart I posted above shows the 20 and 22 yard shooters have each won the GAH more times than the 27 yard shooters.

Thanks,
Garry

 

Roger or anyone, what year were these rules changes implemented?

 

Garry, The cheating started in the late 90's. The rules were not changed until the early 2000's.
The cheaters started with short pop up doubles targets, then they started throwing 2 hole singles targets. Some clubs in the upper mid mid west were throwing one hole targets, with no interrupters in the machines. The ATA being a toothless watch dog condoned these actions. some of the EC were officials of the clubs that were doing this. Roger C.

 

Garry,
Why did you pick 1939 until 2017 for your chart? The 27 yard line didn't exist until the mid 50's. Going back further from the time the 27 was implemented only slants the percentages the way you want them to look. Try your chart from 1955 until 2017 and see what group won the most!

 

Going by memory about 1990 some clubs started to throw 2 and 1 hole (narrow) targets. A Utah club and Texas club were the most flagrant offenders and a lot of border line 27 yard shooters started to shoot these clubs to pump up their averages or get their grand slams. Next some mid western states (under Neil Winston blessing) started to do the same and it blossomed from there.

In 1995 Neal Crosby tried to change it back and made the ATA start enforcing the angles and distance rules but a Mid Western State led delegate motion (Neil Winston backed and inspired) by the BOD changed the rules.

So thank the old Delegates, the old board and a special THANK YOU to Neil Winston. Kiner just got caught trying to fix up a F**K UP.

Garry check how many 27 yard winners you had at the grand for any handicap before 1995, not just the grand american.

Brad Dysinger

 

Garry, you fail to realize the GAH brings out the biggest turnout of short yardage sandbaggers in a given year-many from KY. I hear most clubs in KY only use the yardage markers up to the 22 yd. line-nothing longer needed.

 

Michael, I was aware the change from 25 to 27 yards occurred in 1955. But when I saw that there were zero GAH winners at 25 yards, I knew the percentages would not change. I could have said zero shooters won the GAH from 25 yards from 1939 to 1954 and 9 shooter who won the GAH from 25 yards from 1955 to 2017. Bottom line is there are only 9 shooters who won the GAH from the maximum yardage from 1939 to 2017.

 

Simple math. The guys who carry mid-90's handicap averages will trounce weekend warriors with mid-80's averages time after time. Shooters who carry high averages must, surprisingly to some, break a significant number of scores in the upper 90's too. That's how they earn hundreds of unanswered yards each year while standing on the current fence. The weekend warrior may earn a yard or two but soon is in over his head and can no longer compete. Then he get's smart, quits or shoots Sporting Clays.

 

Guys, I don't have access to the data to answer your questions. Thanks to History Buff, I manually counted the number of GAH winners by yardage from a list HB posted, to make the chart I posted above. It would be very interesting to know how much and what data the ATA has stored on electronic data bases. Running queries against a data base(s) is a quick way to sort out facts from perceptions.

Garry

 

The math at the GAH must be different. Only 9 winners from the maximum yardage during the 78 years from 1939 to 2017.

 

If that is true, is there any need for a 30-yard line before the number of sandbaggers is greatly reduced.

 

First of all. the GAH is a poor representation of why we need more yardage-for obvious reasons listed above. Believe it or not, there's plenty of handicap events throughout the country where "big dogs" are winning or placing consistently near the top. It's called "the law of averages" or " statistical probability" -whatever. I used to despise sandbaggers in the past but I've learned to tolerate some fine friend "target managers". Don't ya just love it when a professional sandbagger shares Harlan's lunch money?

 

Brad, in the clubs in the upper mid west they not only threw one hole targets but they also removed the interrupters from the machines. My mechanic went to one of the clubs when the ATA required a signed letter that all of the machines had interrupters in them. They had 10 traps only ones with interrupters were the two practice traps. He could tell from the peg hole plate only one hole showed any wear. He told the manager he would not sign the letter, he was told to just sign the letter and the get the hell out. They said the all Americans were pumping up their averages there. Mike walked out with out signing the letter. I think the the club had the BLESSING. Roger C.

 

Garry, How many of those 27 yard wins were within the last 10 to 20 years? When I was a little younger I was a 27 yard shooter. Shot probably 100,000 targets from that spot. Was not one of the big dogs, but good enough to squad with them, I paid for most of my shooting and travel from playing options.
The biggest problem with the EC and BOD is they never progressed with the advance made in the shooting industry. They did not keep the game competitive with the changes in the game. voice calls, improved ammo, more reliable guns, better target presentation from improved trap machines. these all contributed to better shooters. They went the other way and softened up all the rules of the game. The changes benefited the more accomplished shooters than the week end warriors who either were not able to improve or were not motivated to do so.
When high gun was introduced to options it exclude the less accomplished shooters from winning, thus they quit playing options then many stopped shooting registered .Our sport was not hurt by any one mistake, it was given the death knell by a lot of dumb mistakes made by past EC and BOD members. Roger C.

 

Guys the bottom line is that when you make anything easier the better person has MORE of an advantage. I know for a fact personally that I won a lot more handicap events after 1995. When they ATA went to easier targets I shot a lot better. Easier targets give the best shot the advantage. Adding Yardage is NOT the answer. Make the targets faster and wider. The old rules worked.

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter anymore because registered trap shooting is following registered skeet shooting to the grave. All you need to do is look at ALL the state shoots not just the grand. EVERY state shoot is smaller than 10 years ago and dwarfed in size from 25 years ago.

I know the EC has no one among them that knows anything about promoting trap shooting. FREE finger FOOD. What's next ALL AMERICAN's for everyone that shoots at the grand.

All us old timers need to just open a Budweiser for the old times and thank God that we lived to shoot at Vandalia in those 4000 plus shooter handicaps like we got to.

Back in the day the Michigan State shoot was the happening place to be on the 4th of July, around 1000 shooters or to Jaqua's another 300 to 400 shooters for the weekend. I don't know if Michigan even had a state shoot this weekend or not and we know Jaqua's is closed. That's the times.

 

I hate to tell you this Brad but the only change in target distance requirements was from 48- 52 to 49-51 yds from the trap. Therefore, any targets thrown past 52 yds. were illegal per the rulebook. Heck, even Vandalia threw 2-hole targets toward the end. Do ya really believe making the targets a little wider is gonna make the weekend warriors take down Harlan?
First of all, we're beating a dead horse. The EC and delegates are mostly composed of trapshooting wannabees. Forget any of them voting to make the game more difficult. The money shooters are gone-right to the casinos and never to return.

 

Notice that it's been 9 years since a 27 yard shooter has won the GAH. Even with the easier targets this is the longest dry spell since the first one in 1978. But longest dry spell was from 1955 to 1978, a period of 23 years.

 

Garry, The GAH is just one event. Admittedly, the biggest one. Many times more shooters than any other handicap event. That is probably why someone comes out of the HUGE pack with a 99 or 100 from the 21 to win it. But look at most state shoots, zone shoots, and satellite "grands." I have not done a study of this stuff and don't actually even know where to find the information together to peruse. But I have shot in more than my share of regional big shoots and the 27 yard dogs generally dominate.
Put on 3 more yards and things should quite logically change.
But, we should still shoot harder targets. Modern ATA targets are a joke. BORING!
Oh, and that FTF rule. You gotta be kidding with that rule in a competitive sport. Ever see a pole vaulter get a do over for a broken pole? Or golfer for a broken club? Etc., etc.
Yawn.
Jake

 

Or see a guy watch a pigeon worth thousands of dollars fly out after his second barrel went CLICK because the trigger spring broke on the previous bird?

OUT!

Bring me four

 

"The money shooters are gone-right to the casinos and never to return."

You better believe it

 

They joined the ex-flyer shooters too. The end of an era.

 

Yes Brad Michigan State shoot is going on now. And you are right I have not shot there in 13 years and was amazed at how low the attendance was compared to the 90's. I shot the handicap event today and there were only 210 entries give or take in the Presidents handicap today. I would say that is roughly 1/3 rd the shooters I remember.

 

Garry,
The difference is the shooter that is stuck on the mid yardage either does not have the ablity to advance to the long yardage or he does not have the drive and ambition to work for the advancement. THE EASIER TARGETS MADE IT EASIER FOR THE SHOOTERS WITH THE ABILITY AND DRIVE TO ADVANCE. At many shoots the 27 yarders out number the short yardage shooters. Many of the 27 yarders do not belong at that yardage but the rules let them stay there. They turn down reductions, because it is an honor to carry an 80% average. That is why we need mandatory reductions.
If the added yardage from 27 to 30 yards is implemented with a rule that you must shoot a 98 or better in shoot with 150 or more shooters in the hdk, you will see very few 28 to 30 yard shooters. The rule should also mandate 35 or more shooters to get yardage with less than a score of 96X100. Roger C.

 

I would add that there are some shorter yardage, on the 22 or so, newbie shooters that KNOW they suck and can't get any better and are satisfied to stay there. They shoot very few "registered" targets close to their homes or farms and just don't have the ability to get better. NO MATTER HOW EASY THE TARGETS ARE NOW. I heard of a guy calling himself greengiant or something like that who is the perfect example of that type of "shooter" and just what the ata wants.

A Kool-Aid drinking pom pom girl that doesn't know any better. What a shame it has come to that.

 

"All us old timers need to just open a Budweiser for the old times and thank God that we lived to shoot at Vandalia in those 4000 plus shooter handicaps like we got to."



When Budweiser was the King Of Beers and The GRAND AMERICAN in Vandalia was the King of Trap shoots

 

What is going to happen when the 30 yard shooters get it figured out and start winning? Are we going to add five more yards and keep moving them back? I don't think adding yardage is the answer. Adding speed or angles might be the answer. Maybe break up the handicap events into three groups: Long, Middle, Short. Each shoots for their own group of champions, money and trophies.

 

If history repeats itself, the intellectuals governing our sport will reduce the angles 5° on each side of the center stake and the rulebook will state:

"the right angle shall not be less than 12 degrees measured to the right of the center (3BF) with a total angle between outside target limits of not less than 24 degrees"

Trapshooting was designed to be difficult whereby straight scores were a rarity.

Ever wonder what the "crack shots" of yesteryear would think of today's shooters? They thought trap was monotonous when the rules called for targets to be set in accordance of the below diagram.

​

There was no perfect target setting. In early times, rules called for targets to be thrown at a distance of 40 - 60 yards; 6 ft. - 10 ft. high measured 10 yards from the trap; and hard right and left targets were thrown at 45° angles with an additional 20° wider still being a legal target.

The legal target area encompassed a full 130°. Today, it's just 54°.

Reducing the level of difficulty in clay target shooting has heretofore failed to save our sport as was once predicted by the leadership.

Ignoring our history when considering rule changes continues to be a factor in the decline of trap shooting.

Just my view,

HB

 

Wonderful, you've just admitted the 30 yd. line won't be enough and the current fence is a failure. I'm betting it will be. So let's throw targets at least 60 yds. and put 'em in the 4-hole. Goodbye Harlan along with half the ATA members. After all, many of 'em are so old they can barely stand and in a few years most will already be gone.

 

I was thinking along the lines of 9414.
However, without the return of the big money, I would bet it never happens.
That is, also going back to the old specifications.

Regards.....Gerald

 

Well, I think we can agree that SOMETHING needs to change. Be it additional yardage, additional angle, additional speed, or restricting guns to 28 gage/ 3/4oz loads max. Something.....

 

Facts being the facts many of the 27 yard shooters (Big Dogs) are professionals mixed in with Amateurs, the amateurs finally caught on and figured out the odds were against them unless they had an exceptional day so they quit playing the money ... The resistance to adding more yardage to separate the "Pro's" from the amateur is part of what keeps the sport from growth and will keep the money shooters out of the game until and if something gets done to change it ...There are other alternatives but the "Pro's " do not want them initiated because it will cut into their pay outs because others will be getting a part of it ... If ("IF") the 27 yard shooters were classified much the same way 16 yard shooters are it might bring back some of the money shooters in due time ... The programs exist to separate the Pro's from the average 27 yard shooter (Man or woman) with the touch of a button but the (Big Dog ) "Pro's" would have fits if their feeding frenzy was eliminated or modified in any way ...
Classifications :
27-AA ( Pro's , teachers, sponsored shooters etc )

27-A (Average 27 yard shooter)

27- B ( based on averages, in each classification)

27 -C ( continuation of above ) ...

Each class would shoot for its own money, Ladies could be classified as such or be blended into the classifications ( given the option) above which would increase every ones chance at winning more money and not be concerned about shooting against the "Pro's" and having them pick your pockets ... Just a few ideas and me thinking out loud ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


This is the only solution I'm telling you … Eliminates any and all guess work and gives money shooters a chance at the money … Eliminates the need for additional concrete or a pallet to stand on, sooner or later everyone will get a warm fuzzy feeling if they put this into effect … Sometimes I think I am talking to the toaster … WPT … (YAC) …

 

WPT, you are not talking to the toaster with me. I have proposed something very similar in the past for handicap events.

• Everyone shoots from 27 yards.
• Use the same classes currently used for 16 yard singles.
• All shooters, regardless of sex or age, would be classified based on their handicap average. Since handicap averages are lower than 16 yard averages, the percentages defining of each class would need to be adjusted.
  
• Each class would have their own money and trophies. The total money available for the event would be distributed to each class based on the percent of shooters in each in class. Total shooters by class divided by the total number of shooter in the event.
  
• Each class would have their own champion and at the GAH, each champion would receive a handicap ring designating the class they won.
• From a shoot management perspective, I would think a proposal like this would welcomed as it would make the job of squading much simpler. It also has the potential to shorten the amount of time it takes to complete the handicap event by eliminating the need to continually move the scorers towers and mic's to different yardages.

 

The ATA has a very ignorant business practice ..... that is ..... try something, if it doesn't work, it is the fault of the customer, the shooters ..... NEVER just a bad move by the Organization that could be rescinded .....

As to the "all 27-yard handicap with classes", you would need "classes" to go all the way down to include scores like 50/100 ..... At this point anything is worth a try, just be ready to include those who should not feel any shame for participation ..... Sporting Clays welcomed the "you suck" shooters by not making them regret their participation and feel shame for the "you suck" scores .....

 

This misses the point of a "handicap" system. Any handicap system is made to partially or completely level the field between strong and weaker competitors. Many of us play golf. There, an established handicap allows a pretty poor golfer (say a 20 handicap) to play competitively, and for money, with a very strong golfer (like a 1 or 2 handicap). They handicap race horses with weight. They handicap bowling with averages and points.
So, making the targets harder does nothing to level the playing field between the professional, long time 27 yard folks, and those not capable of getting there. Nor does breaking the field into 3 groups.
The only way to make the game harder for those with more skill is by making them shoot from further. Every other solution just makes the game harder for all which is NOT a handicap (or eliminates the weaker shooting against the stronger like three fields).
Think about it.
Jake.

 

The way to bring some of the money back to the game is to make the average shooter feel he or she has somewhat of a chance of doing well enough to get some cash back. More yardage, not high gun purses.

 

High gun purses need to go away. They hurt the average and above average shooters. I have seen events where 97's did not hit the purse. Ties divide is the way to get shooters back into the game. 25's make them 60%-40% 50's go 50%-30%-20% like they were before. This sport was never meant to be shooting vocation for competitors.
If the do nothing EC and BOD do not get it right SOON, we can kiss our beloved sport good by. Roger C.

 

I will help the ATA Pres spread his wisdom .....

I like this part ..... "This is so the money won't be so tight at the top and will trickle down a bit more." ..... So maybe the poster boy gets a bigger check without winning ?????

The "winner", 1-100, gets cut from "PERCENTAGE SYSTEM: 1-100 @ $8,750" ..... to "HIGH GUN:1-100@$2,200 (the FIRST High Gun)" .....

"This is mine and Lynn's reply as to how we feel the High Gun is working."

" I don't think the high gun purses at the Grand last year were a failure. It was the second most popular option in those events next to the Lewis. The amount of money and the exposure the ATA gained had a lot smaller price tag than just throwing in added money. The last time the ATA threw in added money it was $100,000 (and it made no difference in attendance), the amount we had to throw in to the high gun purses at last year's Grand was $6,310. So over 89% of the guarantee was picked up by the shooters and 11% by the ATA. That's pretty darn close and a lot better than 100% being paid by the ATA (as it would have been if it was added money). Incidentally, we extended the places from 10 to 15, which means that the top 15 individual shooters that play the purse will win money back this year instead of the top 10. This is so the money won't be so tight at the top and will trickle down a bit more."

" So the individual shooters with the top 15 scores that play the purse will get paid, NOT the shooters that break one of the top 15 scores in the event. That would be pretty ridiculous at the Grand. We would be paying out quarters to some shooters."

" Explanation,
High gun means the option pays the "high guns" or individuals, not the high places (scores). It actually guarantees a more fair distribution of the money as opposed to the percentage system, because sometimes the percentage system could pay a lower score more than one above it. Very simple example:"

"PERCENTAGE SYSTEM:
Open 100's option split 50-30-20%, $35 entry and 500 entries
$35 X 500 = $17,500, split 50%- ($8,750) + 30% ($5,250) + 20% ($3,500)
Scores and money distribution using the percentage system:
1-100 @ $8,750
8- 99 @ $656.25
4-98 @ $875
10 - 97 @ $0
" Downside - Big drop on the payout for the 100 (?????) and the 99's, and then the 98's win more than the 99's. 97's don't even get a smell."

" HIGH GUN:
Guaranteed $17,500, and Payout to the top 15 high guns as follows:
$2,200,2,000, 1,900, 1,750, 1,600, 1,500, 1,300, 1,200, 1,000,875,700, 600, 400,300, 175
500 entries @ $35 each:"

"1-100@$2,200 (the FIRST High Gun)
8-99@$1,531.25 (determined by adding together the 2nd - 9th numbers above and dividing by 8 scores)
4-98@$643.75 (add together the 10th-13th place and divide by 4 scores)
10-97@$38.75 (add together the last two numbers and divide by 10 scores)"

" We changed the wording in the program from "Place" to "High Gun" and added "regardless of trophy placement" to try to clarify the explanation of the option this year .
In the explanation in the program the words "High Gun" are used 18 times!"

" We can't make it any plainer, if you have questions at the Grand about the option feel free to ask for Lynn to explain. I'm done here on this subject."


TD

 

Jake, the wording from handicap to 27 yard singles.

 

No, D class would include all shooters with a handicap average of less than or equal to X percent. I already mentioned that the range for each class would need to be adjusted to reflect the fact that handicap averages are lower than 16 yard averages.

 

Jake, change the wording from handicap to 27 yard singles.

 

The "D-class" doesn't currently work well in "16-yard singles" for people with the "less than" average ..... So, people who have a 70's average in "16-yard singles" would be lucky to have a 50's average in "27-yard singles" .....

Those shooters have a zero chance now in "16-yard singles", making them shoot "27-yard singles D-class" would increase that chance to less than zero .....

No ..... everyone should not get a placement ribbon ..... but some kind of chance to win within their ability may get them to participate .....

 

Anyone know the approximate number of number of active shooters in each of the 16 yard classes ?

 

Amen

 

Brad, Is it OK for me to just have a cup of decaf? I loved Vandalia, it had that feel of comfort that Sparta just does not have. Roger C.

 

Now that is some funny stuff right there. I wish I would have thought of that line.

Isn't that where the layer of pipe comes from?

 

I had a good friend Dana Dobson from KY. I would kid him that he had to come to AZ.to shoot practice,Because none of the fields in KY went back past the 22 yard line. He would tell me where I should go what I should do to my self. Roger C.

 

Exactly, in the past 63 grands 27 yarders have won more than 14% of the grands.

 

While most of this post makes perfect sense, I have to question the "you must shoot a 98 or better in shoot with 150 or more shooters in the hdk' park" part.
Whether you shoot with 160 other shooters or 16 other shooters, how does that affect the validity of your 98 or 99 or 100?
In trapshooting, do we not compete only with ourselves?? I'm asking this in all seriousness.

 

EB
Of what statistical value are stats from before the Winston target changes?

 

That said, how many perfect scores were there from the 27 prior to 1996 and how many after? How many grand slams?

 

Good point. The current easy targets started about 25 years ago. Since then six 27 yarders have won the Grand American Handicap. That's 24%.

 

And the previous fifty years it was done once? And about 90% of the grand slams have been handed out recently?

 

When did the easy targets start? Many clubs were shooting them in the 1980's. So for the purpose of evaluating Grand Slams I'm going to use Mr. Bob Munson as the break point. With the older trap settings we had 112 Grand Slams in the first 37 years of the 27 yard line. In the 27 years of the newer trap settings we have had 386 grand slams. Something happened, must have been making special shells available to everyone.

 

See my new post titled: GAH Winners by year. This list shows there are only 9 GAH winners from 27 yards from 1955 to 2017. Nine winners from 27 yards in 62 years equals 14.5%.

 

Butch easy targets and voice pulls put together are the answer. I don't even think the 2 or 3 hole is as important as the distance. Slower (shorter) targets are easier to hit than faster targets, then adding narrower flights and throw in no hand set targets anymore and there you have it.

 

Garry your post is irrelevant. Those figures mean nothing. The target rules were changed. Eight of those nine winners were recent.

 

I do agree. Now that Brad reminded me I remember when some clubs would set 47-48 yard targets. It was easier to shoot goods scores on short targets than it was to shoot good score on the 50+ yard targets.

 

Mudpack, Many 27td. shooters won added yardage at small shoots with 20 or less shooters. They could win with scores in the mid 80's. I had a friend on the 27 that only shot one score of 96 in all of his shooting career.
Thus the 98 score with 150+ shooters to get yardage farther back than the 27 yard line. Only those capable of being there will ever make it to the 30 yard line.
Roger C.

 

24% still does not my definition of 27 yard shooters dominating the GAH. The 2019 state and satellite grand handicap champions does not support the theory that 27 yard shooters are dominating these shoots either.

 

Garry you have proven you are mathematically challenged. There are or were 8 yardages. 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27. A 27 yardage winner is more likely than any two groups combined. And in some cases 3 times more likely. And for a while there were 10 yardages making it close to 4 times more likely. Then you post that is not dominating. Then why give you any facts?

Start your posts with the caveat “facts don’t matter.”

 

STaTmAn StaN,

I am using historical data. Show me your data that proves 27 yard shooters have been dominating the GAH in the last 25 years. Show me your data that proves the 2019 state and satellite grand handicap championships events are being dominated by 27 yard winners.

 

Garry
The above stats show it. Problem is the above mentioned stats are above your understanding.

 

STaTmAn StaN,

Prove me wrong with data, not talk.

 

Garry. We are using your data above which you do not understand. But I will break it down to a third grade level for you (using the above data).

If you go to a horse race and are told there are 10 horses running but one horse is more likely to win. In the probability of him winning is 3 times greater than any two combined. His name is blue.

There is also yellow, green, red, black, brown, orange, bronze, gold, and hazel.

Using your Walmart calculator which horse do you bet on?

 

STaTmAn StaN,

What you don't understand is I am using actual results and not the theoretical odds of winning. I stand by my statement that the 27 yard shooters have not been dominating the GAH during the last 25 years and the 27 yard shooters have not been dominating 2019 state and satellite grand championship handicap events.

 

My wild guess "blue".

 

Garry. More facts and just facts.

All handicap events at the US Open but one were either tied by or won by a 27 yard shooter.

 

Give it up Stat. You are better off talking to WPT’s toaster. Garry does not even know you are using his data.