My look at angles and distance

All of the bickering about narrow angles or wide angles and short targets or long targets something that hasn't been discussed much is how do these things affect the mental part of our sport? After some trapshooting experience we learn that we are capable of breaking any legal target that the trap throws, if our mechanics and mental approach are fully engaged.

Number 1 is that the faster and farther the targets are thrown the more difficult they become to break for everyone. I believe we can all agree on this.
Another thing that is a fact is that the top shooters "big dogs" are hard to beat. Also the rest of the field of shooters do not break winning scores as often as the top shooters. With the honest lower class and shorter yardage shooters seldom breaking a winning score. With the longer and wider targets it is going to some degree effect the results for everyone. The top shooters are still going to break top scores, but not every day. The other shooters will be affected also, but on the days that they are fully engaged mechanically and mentally they can break a winning score because of lower yardage and lower class. Many of these shooters are doing on these exceptional days for them what the better shooters do on many days.
I really believe that the average or lower shooters have a better chance to win on the more difficult targets. Not to average better, but have a better chance to win. As the difficulty rises the top scores will lower and thin out, this makes more room for the rank an file shooters to rise to the top on a particular day.

This is just my opinion and I hope you will at least give this some thought

An example of what I am saying is, I believe it was 1966 the Grand American Handicap Champion was from our area. Elmer Duggan from Delphos, Ohio broke 99 and tied for the Championship and then broke 25 x 25 to win from the minimum yardage which I think was 19 yds. Elmer was a long time railroad worker around retirement age. He was also a long time shooter and a very nice gentleman.
I remember that after his great win, before that day of a life time that the highest score he had ever broke was 96 x 100 one time from the 16 yd line. Normally if he broke 85 in either singles or handicap he considered it a very good day. I don't believe that he ever even topped the 96 after his Grand win.
If they would have thrown the shorter narrower targets of today back then he probably would not have had the winning score He was an honest shooter who just loved to shoot. On a day when he had his mental and mechanical game on full go he was able to conquer the world.

Dave Berlet

 

Seemingly that is what it is all about.

As the ATA has on the website.

Handicap
Handicap is considered the most prestigious event in trapshooting. As in other sports, handicapping strives to make the competition equal.

Shoot well.

John

 

I think there is validity to your concept Dave.

I will supply you with a personal case in point aligned with your theory.

I am that average shooter you refer to. I will average around 88% in handicap. I am at the 21 yard line having received some "punches." I have won one handicap tournament in my four years of shooting trap. It was the way that I won it that lends credence to your words.

It was the Flag City Tournament at Jaqua's. The wind was ridiculous. My shooting partner and I were walking down to our bank when we passed Louie Morgan. As Louie is a friend and frequent visitor to our club we always chat. When asked about the conditions Louie said he thought he would be lucky to be in the mid-eighties and a score in the low ninety's would win it.

As we walked to our bank I told my buddy that Louie was toast. He was already defeated. My partner said that all american's usually know what they are talking about and the scores would be really low.

Prior to shooting trap I was a duck hunter. A really serious duck hunter. And I pursued that love for over forty years in every fly way. Want to talk about wind? Try pass shooting canvasbacks in thirty mile an hour wind with the temperature in single digits.

Long story short, I won that tournament with a 95. It was not because I was a great shooter. It was due to the fact that conditions were tough. And the big dogs didn't handle it well.

Big dogs are big dogs for a reason. They are really good at what they do. If you give them harder challenges they will overcome them. But they will not do so with the same success rate that they have with lesser challenges. And there lies the chink in the armor. There lies the chance for the little dog to sneak in and steal a bone.

So Dave, I believe your post has merit. But, unfortunately, its significance is akin to eating just one white castle. You get a taste, but you are anything but satisfied with the end result. Soft targets or hard targets, a change will do little to alter the death spiral of the sport of trapshooting.

Figures lie and liars figure. I am sure we have all heard that numerous times. However, the numbers associated with trapshooting are so overwhelming that they preclude any form of skepticism. Our sport is in the spiral. Golf is going in the tank. And who would have ever imagined that nascar would be shedding fans faster then a lab sheds his winter coat. Boxing is receiving CPR. So our sport is in good company. Tastes are forever changing.

Some shooting sports are on the rise. These figures are also indisputable. Trap, however, reached its zenith long ago. And much like a roller coaster, it may rise and fall but eventually it runs out of force. That is the bad news. The good news is that much like skeet we will still be around.

Just think of trap as the shuffleboard of the shooting sports with just a lot more arguing.

 

This is a very mental game ...

If you watch the leader-board before you shoot ... and there are 2-100s, 4-99s, and so on in a handicap event ... and you miss one or two ... you give-up ... or 200 singles and you miss one or two in any class ... it makes a long uninteresting day.

If a 92 is the high-score when you start ... you plug-away to the end. Or if class trophies could be won with less than perfect scores.

The winners may not change all that much with harder targets(speed and angles) ... but the mental-game of giving-up after a single miss would.

A single win can get some to come back looking for the next win, sometimes spending years in the search.

Having no hope, sometimes after the first post, is something not many are interested in.

 

Dave just expressed my feelings exactly. I hate it when a 96 or even 97 only earns a punch and nothing else a big shoots. Even worse is when there are a couple dozen 200's. I will never believe that soft targets retain shooters.

 

Dave Berlet's post is what was once upon a time known as how others perceived our sport of handicap shooting. That same perception also helped our sport attract shooters long term additionally. They stuck around long enough to actually hook themselves to our sport as opposed to the dismal retention rate we have today. Sure, we do hook some up long term but the retention rate seems to have changed drastically. I think it bears some real research through our sports history to find these facts.

How might an average member having one of those above mentioned "hot days" perform in todays trap contests when he has that one special day? In singles or doubles, most of the larger shoot programs state all ties will be carried over to the next like event! So much for that average man's hot day? Handicap ties will be shot off for obvious reasons but some clubs will ask the ties to carry it over regardless of yardage changes. It's up to the short yardage shooter tying to make that decision.

I also agree with docbombay, some of the better shooters will defeat themselves during inclement conditions before their first shot is fired!

Our sport of trapshooting has never had much of a problem attracting new people to try our games, we have a tough time keeping them around long enough to hook themselves though. Till we can honestly answer why that is, it will be business as usual for our long term growth patterns. Our sport is one of fun and individual improvement with time learning our own capabilities. Are we so involved with our own egos in perfection we've destroyed that once held perception. To today's goals of almost perfection? In my less than humble opinion the answer is yes.

HAP

 

Hap think positive, and hope and vote for the return of the 44 degree angles, 50-52 yard targets, so those young shooters may have a HOT DAY and win something.
It is going to take your letter and many others to the ATA to get it implemented.
Dr.longshot

 

IMO your real close to being perfectly correct. But peoples mindset and expectations changed. We became a society in general that no longer wished to work to achieve but rather expected that success be handed to them. They would rather show up at work or the coffee shop and tell others they just broke 98,99 or maybe a 100 out of a hundred even though it possible didn't win them anything, the score sounded miraculous to those that didn't understand and thus a period of chest pounding could result.

I also feel that retention in our sport is low for not only the obvious items such as time and cost but that people even under these less difficult standards do not feel compelled to earn their success quickly (is overnight) and thus move on to something new. Commitment, desire, fortitude and expectations have dramatically changed in our society as a whole. Unfortunately that mindset reflects in other skill set involvements as well.

 

Gary, attempting to convince the shooters here or on any other trap shooting discussion site is merely a lesson in futility.

I'm probably a lot more positive guy than you think too. Rubbing others in the wrong way certainly can't sway them to your ideas as you've experienced over the years?

Change happened in small steps, that's the way forward to eventually change things for the betterment of our sport for the future. Gary, you need to converse with people rather than preach at them hoping to sway them that your way is verified by our sports history.

Hope, poke and pray when shooting results in almost as much success as you're having convincing anyone to accept any changes you mention? The way to change is through selecting your delegate that's more interested in the longevity of our sport rather than his own high shooting averages. It's time for all of us select those wanting to put real integrity back into our sport and our rule book even if it's one small step at a time. I am the ATA.

HAP

 

I agree with Dave, deepbackwood and Hap, but we also have this scenario.:

My son is 30+years old. So are 3-4 other new shooters at our club, and another 7-8 guys in their 50's. ALL of these new shooters are shooting registered sporting in lieu of trap. The weird thing is we don't have a sporting clays course with in 1 1/2 hours of our town, but we do shoot 5 stand on Wednesdays at our club, and birds aren't easy (on purpose). Since I'm the only cross-shooter, there is a lot of jabbing and teasing that comes my way because to them, trap seems to be so much more regimented and clicky than sporting clays.

But, they will all admit that they suck at trap because they've never attempted to get serious about it. They all shoot our winter trap league, and yep....most suck at trap. They also feel that the learning curve is too long before they can compete with the local experienced trap shooters at trap, and there are quite a few around here. They like the social aspect of sporting (talking between stations), the variation in targets, and THE DIFFICULTY of true registered NSCA sporting targets. To them, trap is boring, too confined, takes too long, and monotinous. Most sporting events are 100 targets/day and takes 2 hours.

The point I'm making is this: The 10 - 12 shooters I've mentioned would probably all have been trap shooters if sporting didn't exist. Trap has competition, so we'd best get our act together if we're not retaining shooters. If you are not grow'n, you're die'n!