Attention Martins: More money needed ASAP

Open letter to you. The Cardinal Center is putting up shot screens. Got much of the money from the state I read. That will hurt the Sparta venue. You guys remember that venue right? It is the venue you prop up despite the damage it has done to the sport. Thanks for the help.

Now the shooters will be spending more money in Ohio. More will be staying in OH and those PA fellows might not have as much money to make the trip to the gun hate state.

IMHO you guys should just give some of your change to the EC members. They are the ones that need free guns. And don't forget to re-prop up the HOF. You are in there for donating. Keep up the good work.

 

I have never shot somewhere that had shot screens. Is it good or bad? I would think it would be just a distraction unless the back ground is worse of a distraction. Or maybe you get used to it?

 

If Sparta bothers you that bad---- don't go. If you like Cardinal ---- go there. Or visa versa. It's just a game, made to enjoy, not a job or grudge match. Enjoy life for it is all too short. Been to Sparta & Vandalia several times. Hope to get to the Cardinal before I am unable to shoot anymore which may be closer than I hoped. Have fun.

 

The Martins would not do anything they thought would be detrimental to the Sport of Trapshooting, their generosity is over the top ... The Harts are also generous and make numerous donations at many shoots during the shooting season ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Jack, This is a site where no one must be politically correct. speak your mind what ever it may be. We all never agree on every thing that is posted. We also do not get banned for not kissing the EC ring.
Get used to it, but do not expect any butt kissing on here.
Welcome to the discussions. Roger C.

 

WPT—- please tell us how the Martins justified going to the head of the line in the HOF. They thought that was best for trapshooting?

 

I'M SURE THEY DID NOT ASK. Why do you not ask them. They went way above trying to help this dying sport, it sounds like you resent their help. Some people will look a gift horse in the mouth, you sound like one of them. Roger C.

 

rickyd,
I do not know for a fact but would bet even Money the Martins never made them being put in the HOF as part of anything they have done to promote trapshooting … The Martins have gone above and beyond over the years trying to make trapshooting better for all involved, its a passion of theirs so they promote it … I seem to recall the Martins donated $1,000,000 to the HOF, knowing Bill as I do I doubt he stipulated they had to be enshrined to get the donation … WPT … (YAC) …

 

You might not like where the money has gone or the decisions that have been made but criticizing the Martins for how they choose to spend *THEIR* money is in extremely bad taste. There has never been anyone more generous towards our sport, there probably won’t ever be again, and second place isn’t even close. I certainly don’t agree with certain things but what gives you the right to tell another man where to spend his money? Are you even aware of the number of gun clubs and shooting venues they have been supportive of? How about youth trapshooting?

Maybe you’d feel a little differently if he wrote a check to the Cardinal Center, which despite it being the most perfect trapshooting venue in the universe, is still a for-profit business?

Why don’t you post where you donate to and the amounts and we can throw stones at your glass house?

 

Jumanji
1. The cc does not seem to need the monies from the Martins. Location.
2. The Martins went to the head of the line in the HOF. Do you think that was right?
3. The Martins in my opinion have kept the sport down by propping up a terrible venue.

I am with Smithy on this one. Anyone that has propped up that joint has hurt trapshooting. This includes the begging Bradford.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Jmho

 

I made 3 donations to the Fund for the WALL, I do not expect to get a brick in it with my name on it … My wife threatened to take away my check book and credit cards again … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Two paths to the hall of fame, give millions of dollars to ATA cronies to prop up one location and get voted in. (change time requirements from the HOF rules also to speed up pay off) or spend 25 years taking those same types of people's money, winning ATA championships along the way. TWO PATHS

 

The Martins own the ATA in the west. Mr. Martin helped finance the shrine where he now has a picture. Good marketing on the part of the ATA. High Schools do the same across the country. You have a HOF for outstanding athletes. They then further adopt the school and donate to the athletic programs.

 

Enablers enable. It is like mom giving another $100 for lunch to the coke head son. She thinks she is being nice.

 

The Martins are a very generous. Do not get them mixed up with the dislike of the ATA leaders. They have helped many clubs, I have never heard of them asking for any favors. Roger C.

 

Some one asked Bill Martin why he does what he does, he responded because he can ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Brad there is a 3rd path, the one Neil Winston Instagated, Letter Writing Chain to stab Neal Crausaby in the back when he was President, ass kissing path. Graph paths,

GB DLS

 

Maybe all the Martin critics should move to New York and run for Congress? I hear people like you get elected there. Once elected you can try to pass laws so you can tell other people where they must spend THEIR money so YOU will be happy. Say hi to Alexandria for me.

 

Double D
People like us prefer to run for election in Ohio where trapshooting does well without people like the Martins giving money to enshrine the 2012Pull thugs. I would rather shoot in a state that protects the Second Amendment. You won’t find me giving money to a third party to build a shrine for me that is owned by Illinois on Illinois land.

If the Martins want to be enshrined with the 2012Pull gang I guess that is their business. If they want to pay millions to get to the head of the line, they can do that too. But, it is my choice to laugh. And I am laughing loudly.

 

Well then big talker why don't (or didn't) you pony up your money and give it to the club of your choice. Sounds like all you critics are just jealous because you couldn't do what one Man and Woman did.
Maybe if you and other people would have put up the money the Home Grounds could have been in another place.
I have no problem with Ohio or Pennsylvania, the 2 biggest states when it comes to shooters, but don't be pissed when someone else out does you. If it wasn't for the Martin's trapshooting on West side of the country would not be what it is. It would be a East Coast game.

 

Double D
I am not a “big talker”. I give to my clubs. Don’t have to give much. I am not in a gun hate state. Get a map and you will see OH is not on the east coast. The Martins have not “out done” me or the shooters in my area. I wasn’t out to hurt the sport. If I was, they out did me.

I doubt anyone from my area is jealous of anything in IL.

My homegrounds are in a better place.

 

The way I see it, its not much different when the Martins donate $1,000,000 for the HOF building than it would be if so and so donated x number of dollars to build the west wing of so and so hospital that would be named after the person as a courtesy … I seriously doubt being enshrined in the HOF in the middle of Nowhereville, Ill would be on top of the Martins list of things to do today … I guess many who doubt why they did it would have to meet the Martins face to face which would eliminate any doubt about their reasoning … If the Martins wanted to be in the HOF they could build their own and charge an admission, they are truly not that kind of people … WPT … (YAC) …

 

I agree with you WPT They are fine people who really love trapshooting. I am sure if they had donated to the C.C. there wouldn't be much mud throwing.

 

Propping up the move that destroyed registered trapshooting cant be compared to donating to a place that doesn’t need donors. Paying for your own shrine is tacky. Moving to the head of the line is tacky too. The members said don’t put it there. Guess the Martins and the PULL gang know better. They can shoot by themselves and buy a few friends.

 

I have known Bill Martin for probably 25 years. I have never met a more generous man in my life. He may be wealthy, but he is a very down to earth hard working, hard living, maybe wild living, but a very nice person. How can you uninformed people make rash judgments against people that you do not know. It is very TACKY to do so, and says a lot about yourselves. Now you have a nice day. Roger C.

 

Roger
Stop with the holy crap trying to make a martyr out of them. No one attacked their character. The actions they have taken albeit nice have been a slap to many a trapshooter. It is the action. You know the result of propping up that cash pit. You have said so other threads.

 

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm, my wife and I, are having a very nice day. She hit a slot for $4000.00 Sunday night and we are up about $700.00 tonight at another joint.
As far as the Martins and the ata?
I doubt very much if they ever even thought about being inducted into the trap SHOOTING HOF.
What I do know is that the ata has a practice of "rewarding " people for anything they, the ata, feel helped them.
You know, like a FREE gun.

 

Davidson,
I call them like I see them. I see you as a very obnoxious person. You make judgements with out the info of knowing the people that you are judging. That is very rash, and imature.
How was that a slap to any trap shooters? You have no idea what their motives were, you are judging them by your own likings.
I know Bill and I like him, I do not know you, and doubt very much if I would care for you if I did. Roger C.

 

Gee Mr. Dawg
No to be a buttinski but we (us members) did tell the EC we did not want to be in Illinois. With the help of the Martins the 2012PULL gang have kept their strangle hold on the ATA. Not that I should care. It is their money folks keep saying "propped up" Sparta. Read above.

Without the Martins (good folks I assume) would we still be shooting at Sparta? If so and it is against the wishes of the members, then of course it is a slap.

Enablers are often the most generous people. I don't see the statements above as personal attacks. Some vitriolic anger about the outcome.

 

I think that the Martins may have meant well but by propping up the EC in Sparta their actions have actually had a negative affect on the SPORT of registered trap shooting. If they would have kept there actions to Tuscon the Grand maybe would have not been in the Peril that the new laws the anti gun state of Illinois are now passing puts it. How long can it last in Sparta if the vendors stop coming?

The Martins money has been wasted in my mind, it would have went a lot farther if it had gone to state shoots and organizations, or the SCTP for that matter. The HOF building that they largely paid for isn't even owned by the HOF or the ATA, and all the trap shooting history is now located in the most anti gun state not on a coast.

With all the money they have spent what is the pay off? Sparta and the EC still pushing it. We have fewer shooters today than when they started giving all their money.

 

Brad,
The Martins and their friends did mean well. The E.C. took them for a ride. If a Hall of Fame building was built in either Ohio, or Tucson it would get a lot more attendance than where it is at.
The down hill slide of the registered shooting sport is about to pick up speed with help from the state of Ill. In a way they may be doing registered shooters and Ill. citizens a huge favor, by putting the ATA exec's on notice, your bull shit is about to make you walk. Where are you going to go? Who will want to have anything to do with you? Why would anyone want to deal with you? Your members can not trust you why should anyone else. These are questions that are now going to have to be answered. I'm interested in hearing the spin that is to come.
( A FANTASTIC DIRECTION WILL NOT BE A GOOD ANSWER to get them out of the shit they are getting in to. Hold on tight it is going to be a rough ride. Roger C.

 

So we have this poll where the members say don't put the place there. Not in that spot. And the ATA says pssst we can make a buck on this. And besides I know this dude with lots of money. We can get money from him to support the joint and make a buck for ourselves. Who needs members.

Yeah! That is a slap in the face.

 

You give them WAY too much credit. I don't believe for one second that the boys that thought they knew better than the membership gave any thought to getting money from the Martins when they first made the decision to move to that place in IL. They figured that all of us staying home wouldn't matter. All those shooters that bitched the Grand was too far when it was in Vandalia would flock to the new place.

Who needs those OH and PA shooters? Not us, we know better. OOPS!

It was after they realized the place was a lousy choice and only half, if they were lucky, the number of people would go there that they needed help. Man, I sure wish I could have been at that first meeting.

They should have all fell on the ground and kissed the feet of the Martins.

I laugh when I think about how educated and smart these jackwagons are supposed to be and how all the Kool-Aid drinkers follow along like lemmings never questioning anything. These guys screwed the pooch and they would take a nickel from a blind guys cup to try and prop up that white elephant.

And remember, Dysinger was right in his ASSesment of one of the biggest ever to come down the pike.

​

 

Welther,
I have never seen any evidence that the Martins had anything to do with the move to Sparta. If you do please post it. The EC made the blunder all by them selves, the Martins tried to help the sport. Now some of the finger pointers want to blame them for the stupidity of the people that made the move. Typical of the know nothing crowd. Roger C.

 

I would seriously doubt there was any connection between the Martins and the move to Sparta, Ill , logically it would not make any sense at all … The possibility of the grand being in Tucson, Arizona would make sense being as the Martins are all in with that club and would have a vested interest in the grand being at that location or at a club in Utah … Personally, I would have to believe that if the Martins were going to pick a place (location) for the ATA to hold the grand it would not of been in the State of (Confusion) Illinois with all of the financial problems they have as well as restrictions regarding guns, ammo etc, just would not make any sense … The ATA and shooters who attend the grand can and should thank God for a family like the Martins (Harts) to step up when the odds are against it and they can't draw a crowd … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Please don’t take this the wrong way as I am not a trap shooter , I shoot NSSA . As much as a skeet shooters like to complain about the NSSA and San Antonio. (for you That don’t know that’s where our world shoot is)At least the NSSA owns the grounds at San Antonio. How is it that the ATA has not bought its own facility to hold their world grand shoot . I have seen pictures of some of the old shoots that the ATA held and there were thousands of people there and this was years ago when the land was cheap and they could’ve built their own facility and not had to worry where . I’m not trying to defend the NSSA because Lord knows they could do a better job too but at least it’s ours.I was just wondering how come the ATA never did this in the past. I know with today’s market it would be very hard to do this now . But 50years ago not so much . Was there a reason for this ? I would like hear from you seasoned shooters , because I truly don’t know the answer.

 

They were offered land.

 

They were offered land,but turned it down. My guess is someone was not going to make any money from the deal. It is hard to get a kick back from a donation of land. Roger C.

 

I understand that but what about years ago in proverbial heyday of shooting . Know it hindsight now but I think you fellas were let down by your predecessor years ago by not having the foresight to think Dayton might not always be available. Maybe I’m be a little obtuse or maybe urban sprawl wasn’t even considered then , like I stated is just hindsight and my opinion.

 

Evil will prevail, when honorable men do nothing. Roger C.

 

The ATA (Members) had a chance to own a club and the land in Texas, it was presented to them by Jimmy Borum (RIP) and Jeff (?, last name escapes me right now ) a long with a low interest loan that would of been renewable and would of been very affordable from what I re call ... The location was within 15 miles of a major air port, but the site was never given any, let alone minimal consideration because the then EC said it was not adequate and would not be affordable for the ATA at the time ... I honestly do not remember all of the particulars but what was posted by the presenters looked to be the ATA's best deal as well as provide ownership ... The State of Illinois was in, then out, then back in the mix by the ATA avoiding due diligence by getting a lease on the facility, then MOU, then who knows what ... The ATA at that time paid a lot of money for Professionals to come up with the minimal standards (due diligence) and that was scrubbed and not taken into consideration by the relocation committee for what ever reason and never heard of again ... The State of Illinois has a new administration (Governor Pritzger) so now we can hold our breath and hope he does not eliminate a costly venture that does not pay for itself (WSRC, Sparta, Ill) as he attempts to balance a budget ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Icemon,
Probably about 25 years ago the then members of the E.C. decided they knew more about running the ATA than the members. Little by little all oversight by membership was eliminated. The need to know was put in place by a vote of the E.C. and backed up by the do nothing BOD.
As you can now see it has not worked out to well. They ignored the vote of the members when told do not move to Ill., they also ignored a paid polster that recommended not to move to ILL. There have been many under handed deals that should not have been made, but their was profit in them for some of or all of the E.C.
Their self proclaimed fantastic direction is leading in to a cesspool, and I does not look like it can be reversed, at least by the present directors.
The association was founded by men of vision, and has been murdered by self servers. Sad but true. Roger C.

 

Let me guess when it’s time to vote for your EC the votes are counted in private.

 

EC voting is without record. Anonymous. No roll call votes.

Just because you are a member does not mean you can vote for a delegate.

 

The Spring Grand kicked off this week, if anyone would ever question the Martins and Harts generosity or intentions all they have to do is look at the Tucson Trap and Skeet Club ... The improvements and expansion to and of the club over the years are a direct result of the Martins involvement and investing in trapshooting making Tucson one of the Premier shooting facilities in the south western United States ... (Check out the web site) ... The Martins being the signature sponsor of the grand only confirms their passion for the sport and should not be taken as anything other than that, they are truly one of a kind ... Those who attend the grand should thank God for people like them and for their involvement in trapshooting ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Ok WPT

The Martins helped Tucson. That was good for Tucson.
The Martins involvement at Sparta have nearly destroyed tthe sport.
The shooters in Tucson wanted that venue to remain in Tucson.
The Martins and the 2012Pull thugs went against the members in Sparta.

As long as the ATA has the Martins, they don’t need the members. Jmho

 

Smithy,
You are way off base with your ideas about the Martins. The Martins did not instigate the move to Sparta, they tried to save the place for shooters. Why would anyone fault them for that?
The present and past EC members are the reason the sport is standing in dodo up to our eye balls. There is nothing anyone can do to save the ATA, only the EC and BOD have any say as to how the organization is run.
Very few of shooters that remember the old ATA, have any respect for the last 20 years of leaders. Roger C.

 

Smithy,
I will not debate the ATA's need (lacking) for the members but the ATA had that attitude toward the membership long before the Martins got involved and started sponsoring (Signature Sponsor) of the grand American Trap Shooting Championships … Initially the Martins were giving big pay offs to shooters above and beyond what the pay outs were, seem to recall some young man who won $100,000.00 (?, correct me if I am wrong ) … The Martins Paid out over $500,000.00 ( 4 years collectively ) to a multitude of winners at the grand before they started being a signature sponsor, how that happened is any bodies guess but I honestly doubt Bill Martin ( the Martin Family / Hart Family) bargained for position to be inducted into the HOF or stipulated that as part of the deal, that would also include the $1,000,000 donation to the HOF building ... I would hope they would be treated like Royalty by the ATA when they attend the grand because of their investment in trap shooting from a financial aspect, I would consider that to be common courtesy after all of the $$$'s they have invested, so the show can (will) go on … The Martins are not going to let any ones opinion sway them from doing what they do, but those who attend the grand better pray the Martins continue doing so before that shoot is gone and the EC and good Ol Boys Club make off with the memberships money ...
The ATA has treated the membership (general) like they do not exist for a lot longer than the move to Sparta, Ill took place, that is easily researchable … I do not think the Martins had anything to do with the 2012 Pull fiasco, (membership rip off) there would not be enough money for them to risk their reputation on some office building in No wheresville, Ill … That's just my take on it and I have known the Martins for several years and will tell you one more time, they are not that kind of people … WPT … (YAC) …