Top singles coming back?

I am seeing more shooters going back the to top single. Fewer shooting the unsingle guns.

I am also seeing more shooting the double as the go to gun. Even for singles.

Opinions from your areas please.

 

What part of the country do you live in...fishing are we ?

 

Count me as one!

 

Been shooting my Mx10 for years, when I buy another it will be a top single as well. I just like them, probably cause I love sxs's so the one barrel looks skinny to me lmao

 

You may be right about the un-single but I don't see people grabbing their OU instead of their single for 16 and handicap.
There have been some that did shoot all events with an OU as in Frank Little who did great, but later went with a single barrel. Why have your vision block with more steel, unless your a one eyed shooter not even mentioning balance and swing.

 

Maybe, that's why Ljutic has been selling top singles for 50+ years. Hummmm. Maybe, that's why I've always shot a Ljutic. Let me see; Mono, then Spacegun, then Mono, then Spacegun, then Mono, now Dynokic. All in 44 years of Trapshooting.

 

Yup I also shot a ljutic as well, loved them, I had a beautiful 2 barrel set with amazing wood on it, to this day should not have sold that one. I was using a Mirage for doubles at the time

 

Top single is more common in most of the shoots. Unsingle usually cost a little more and not all mfg makes them.

 

Have a Seitz, High Tech combo and a K-80 TS combo along with a Ljutic.

I can't tell any difference.

 

I had an MX-2000 combo set with the un/single, loved the gun but was never confident while shooting if I was going to hit or miss the target a lot of times ... I sold that and bought an MX-2000/8 with the top single, great gun also and I do not realize a lot of difference in the recoil between the top and bottom singles like some people claim ... I do feel much more confident shooting the top single, seem to be more sure of being on or off of the targets ... I shot a Ljutic way back when (x-73) and shot it well until it was paid for then for some reason could not hit a bull in the azz with it, sold it with no regrets ... I shot a Winchester Model 12 for a number of years and to this day wish I never would of quit shooting that, but had to have a better gun (trap shooting disease) kicked in ... Live and learn ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Got some Perazzi's for sale, won't be selling any of my Model 12's ...

 

Started with my Winchester model 12, then Perazzi MX8 combo and now Perazzi TM1 when having a bad day go back to the model 12 all top barrel.

 

I shot an assortment of Perazzi's over the years MX 8 Combo, TM1, TMX, MX 2000 unsingle, another MX 2000/8 ,Ljutic, Remington 1100 Tournament Grade, Rem 870 TC, Model 31, can't help but wonder if I would of stayed with the first gun I had and bought a chit load of shells and practice if I would not of been better off … TMX, MX2000/8 are for sale (pictures in the For Sale section) when I go back it will be with a Model 12 … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Didn't know the top single went anywhere?

 

Amazing you remembered all the guns and in what order.
I can't even remember what was 3 guns prior.

 

I have been out of trapshooting for about 10 years and went back to the California State Shoot and thought there were more unsingles than before. The gun that seemed to have made big inroads in market share was the K-80 Trap special, High rib unsingle. There were a lot of top singles as well, but of the high end guns, I noticed what I thought was an increase in Un-singles.

 

I have used the following:

TM-1, MX-3 Special, MX-8, X73 and Mono. I use the authorized Tom Seitz copy now. No more trades I promise. Now if the right Bowen comes along.

Tried two under singles as an experiment. Was not happy thinking about or a contemplating a competitive shot with one. Good learning curve experment and experience. Nothing like personal edification.

Top Single? Don’t leave home without it!

 

You have luck on your side. Vegas or lotto next stop!

Do not undercount the MX 10 RS style guns in terms of numbers coast to coast. They are thick as thorns!

 

No particular order and I am sure I forgot a few, K-32 was in the mix also someplace … I was a dealer at one time so I usually had a bunch of guns to choose from on hand … If I could own but one gun, it would be the Model 12 Pigeon that I shot back to the 27 with … WPT … (YAC) ...

 

A few years after I started shooting, Phil Ross told me , shoot the same gun and the same ammo. Never change. That's what he did, for like 50 years, a Model 12 and 3 dram AA's. He was a pretty fair money shooter. I tried to kind of stick to that philosophy.

 

I shot the best with a model 12. Got stolen 35 yrs ago. Went to high end guns. Should have went back to the model 12

 

Also, not everyone can shoot an unsingle (well), and most everyone can shoot a top single.

 

mudpack,
Then why can some people shoot the bottom barrel of an over under well. Roger C.

 

In my case it had to be mind games because the POI was set the same as the others guns I shoot or have shot … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Because they are actually "shooting" the top barrel of the O/U, regardless of which barrel the shot comes out of.

 

Time to dust off wpt's toaster. Roger C.

 

Mudpack gets it. Make the change to an unsingle and you will find out how much you subconsciously used the barrel as part of the sight picture.

 

A Compromise, Kolar T/S's mid single.

 

FrankL, If you are seeing the barrel, you do not have a lock on the target. Not the way to be a champion. shooter.
Roger C.

 

I can see the barrel, even thought my focus is on the bird. So can you. It's called peripheral vision.
Even though you are looking at this print, you can see what's sitting on your desk in front of the monitor.
I know you get it.

 

Sorry mudpak.
I never see the barrel. Not even in my peripheral vision. If you do you are not locked on the target. I have shot over 350,000 registered targets. I'm pretty sure I know what I see. What you used to make your point has no bearing on shooting targets that are moving. Just keep doing whar you are doing and I do not ever have to worry about meeting you in a shoot off. Roger C.

 

The shooters you DO meet in a shoot-off CAN see their barrels in their peripheral vision. That may account for why they'll probably be the last man standing.

 

mudpack,
I have trophies from 12 different state shoots and from 4 different satalite grands , the US open and 5 from the grand.
Maybe if I could see the barrel I would have been more successful. Roger C.

 

Hey Roger
If it is subconscious, then how do you know you cant see the barrel? And before you tell me about your trophies....I don't care.

 

Also Roger, I am guessing you shoot a 30 inch barrel. Sight picture means nothing right? I cant always see bullshit. I can smell it down the street.

 

just wanted to let you wanta , "B's"'S:know you do not know jack shit about shot gun shooting if you think you must see the barrel But just blunder along. If your gun fits you and you can mount it the same every time you do not need sights or to see the barrel. By locking on to the target you know where it is going to hit. That is if you know how to shoot. Now go and blunder your way and tell your buddies how good you are, fifth place in, in "D" class . Roger C.

 

Frank, It never seems to amaze me how the least capable always want to tell every one their hair brained theory on how to complete a difficult task.
You see I do not care if you are a perpetual class D shooter. That is not why I compete in this sport. I compete to win, not to be an also ran, and you can not win if you are not competant at the game. At least you have a little room for improvement, MAYBE. Now you have A NICE DAY. Shoot well and have fun doing it. I just have. Roger C.

 

I built a K-80 combo with a top single K-32 barrel just recently. Just wanted to go back to a top single. Kind of in a slump lately anyway. The O/U has the same rib. I just like the way it points, and how it feels. Same way a Model 12, or Model 31 does. I do notice the barrel more, simply because when it enters that two degree cone of central vision crossing the target, it is twice the width of the un-single rib. I admit also, that I have to be consciously aware of it to see it. If I just concentrate on the target very hard, I do not notice it, but believe it is still part of the mechanism to pull the trigger when it crosses the target.

When I shoot the un-single barrel, or any of my other higher rib guns, I never notice the rib, barrel, or the beads. I think that is more a trigger pull timing based on my front hand position alignment with the barrel, and rear hand. It just seems odd that I do not notice the barrel or reference it at all with the high rib guns.

It is kind of the same thing that happens when I close my left eye to shoot. All of a sudden that barrel appears in the picture. Two eyes open, and I don't notice it.

 

This paragraph is Dead Drop Accurate. I've never noticed this as much when I was able to mount gun to shoulder. But due to my spinal cord injury and now the only way I can shoot/compete is by holding gun at near hip.
When moving gun towards moving target, I see no part of the gun. Just the elevated red dot about 13'' above gun, whether it's the Perazzi TM1 or the Rem 1100.
Here's the single most important aspect of shooting this new style...MY LEFT AND RIGHT HAND IS CONNECTED TO A SOLID OBJECT (the gun that I can't see) WHICH MY BRAIN INSTINCTIVELY POINTS TO THE TARGET THRU MY EYES. This forms my BERMUDA TRIANGLE of the kill zone if you will.
A direct line from my brain/eyes (both opened) to target back to hands which act as ONE, which is holding pointing device (gun) back up to brain/eyes. Creating the Triangle analogy.
It is totally amazing how the Brain calculates this maneuver.
I literally could be holding a $15,000 trap gun or a Tomato stake...makes no difference, just as long as it's straight connecting both hands.
IMO, this is what separates the World beaters from the rest of us, they have the unique ability, whether they realize it or not to have a better hand eye coordination then most of us.
I practice this about every day, just holding gun at hip, staring at object on wall or a wall chart above my reloader.
Sometimes I'll put in Laser pointer in barrel and amaze myself how easy it is to center beam on object that my eyes are locked onto just as long as my arms and upper body act as one.

 

Rookieshooter,
Try picking a spot on a wall as far away as you can get indoors. Pick the spot then close your eyes mount gun open eyes you should be within a 12 in circle of the picked spot. When you are consistantly within a 6 in. circle you have a very good mount and you eyes and body will direct the shot. No sights or barrel sighting needed. The farther you are from the spot the better it improves accuracy. Shoot well and often. Roger C.

 

Rookieshooter,
I forgot to mention , if you can not get inside the circle , but are constantly in the same spot. The gun needs adjusted to your body. Stock moved on or off cast, also comb height up or down. Hope this helps you in some way. Roger C.

 

Roger,
I'm sure right about now Rookieshooter would like to be able to mount the gun on his shoulder.

Rookie,
You are amazing. I would have just "hung it up" a long time ago. Good luck with your shooting.

 

Roger
Your attempt at insulting me failed. Once again...what length barrel do you shoot from the caps?

 

I know about Rookieshoters handicap, I used mount in a literal way. He still must mount his gun and follow the same procedure as we do. Roger C.

 

Frankl,
That was not an attempt at insulting you. It was an attempt at giving you the the advise of 45 yrs. of trap shooting experience.
I shoot a 34 in. unsingle , and a 30 in. O/U K-80 . Shoot well and often. Roger C.

 

I believe you're right.

 

rookieshooter,

Sorry to hear about your situation. What you explained is the exact things that are happening when trick shooters hold the gun above their head and shoot targets out of the air also. Just as from the hip. Every part of our body is attached to the brain obviously through nerves which carry information as to their location at all times. As Roger states, we can look at an image on the wall, close our eyes, and point directly at it without actually seeing it at the time with our open eyes. That visual image is stored in our memory, and used for reference as to where to point our hand. We also can point at an object from down at our side, without any visual alignment reference whatsoever.

Being that the barrel is in our front hand, and it's location is known at all times without visual reference, our brains signal the trigger pull when that front hand crosses the target in flight, and it is in line with the rear hand. I also believe in, and have done this for a long time. Point the lead hand index finger straight down the barrel. That really allows a more zeroed in affect for reference. If you watch a lot of really good shooters, you will see them doing this. There is good reason to do so. Essentially you are making the barrel an extension of your index finger for pin point reference.

I believe if we shoot one gun for long enough, we could still hit the targets pretty regularly if our vision was blocked from seeing the barrel or beads completely. I am talking about a normally mounted gun.

As you say, the human brain is a super computer that along with our body capabilities will never be matched. Especially how we can adapt to permanent injuries of our senses, and physical handicaps.

Keep shooting! I think people would be surprised at how shooting from the hip is not as difficult as it seems. Just like anything else, it takes practice. Just ask the trick shooters.

 

Sure it was. I just don't care what you think of my shooting background. (of which you know little)

Of course you shoot a 34 for caps. A 30 for doubles. Sight picture is different for both or at least slightly. If you did not see the barrel you would only shoot the 30. Thanks for proving my point.

 

I believe you are right.
I also believe one cannot shoot consistent straights if one cannot see the barrel during the shot.

 

FrankL, stop trying to be martyr. If i wanted to insult you I really could have. There you go again, trying to justify looking at the barrel. I have the same sight picture on all barrels. I see the target, I hope not many of the readers are taking your advise. If they are they may end up as class B shooters for their total time as competitors.
I have blackened out the beads on both barrel's. The length of my barrel's is not a factor as I do not see either for singles or doubles. With a proper gun fit, to your mount, and a consistent mount, no beads are needed.
Mud pack,
If you consistently shoot 100 straights, I do not suggest changing. Only you know what your scores are. If you are happy with them stay the course. Roger C.

 

I think there are no wrong answers here. Human audio visual perceptions vary from person to person.

One of the best low light shooters I ever had the pleasure to watch would white chalk his TM-1 rib for night shoot offs. Now his barrel moved as smooth as a knife through hot butter: good daylight, poor daylight or artificial light at night. I know he was not rib or bead checking.

 

Frank Little gave classes on sustained lead. So Frank saw his barrel.

 

I shot many targets with Frank. He never mentioned that to me. He shot fairly quick, to hold a sustained lead you must track a target. I do not remember him doing that. Roger C.

 

I could shoot an unsingle fine at 16's but not with any consistency at 27. I would find that a few shots every round I'd shoot off the barrel on quarter angles from the 2, 3, or post 4 and shoot high. Plus if you cant an unsingle that is set to shoot high you will shoot beside straightaways at times. Just inevitable. Unsingles aren't any good with windy targets either.

One of the reasons the ATA has narrowed the angles so much over the years is so guys who own $20,000 guns don't have to explain an 80 average to their wives. Most $20,000 guns are unsingles and worthless on hard angles that very in height. Model 12 targets I'll call them. You need a fast handling, good pointing gun in the wind or on wide, strong targets.

 

Hi Brad,
That is why is stress gun fit and consistent mounting of the well fit gun. I have seen shooters with so much cant, I'm amassed they can hit anything. Many shooters could not carry the ammo bag of the old timers. Roger C.

 

Frank L,

Here's an experiment I would like you to try. Mount your top single gun making sure your shooting eye is looking down the exact center of the rib and tell me if you can see the barrel. I have done this experiment several time and all I can see is the rib. The rib covers up the barrel making it impossible for me to see barrel.

 

Open your other eye.

Seriously, when we talk about "seeing the barrel", we are including the rib, which is a part of the barrel.

 

And why do you suppose he chalked his rib with white chalk?
Maybe it was so he could SEE it better..???

 

I shoot with both eyes open. My point was that I can't see my barrel when looking straight down the rib because the rib blocks the barrel. Your use of the word including, means a person can see both the rib and the barrel. Mount your top single looking straight down the middle of the rib and then tell me if you can really see the barrel while keeping your eyes focused on the POA.

 

If you see either the barrel or the rim, you are aiming. Shot gunning is a pointing game, you do not need to see the sights. Proper gun fit and consistent mount is the answer not seeing barrel or ribs. Both eyes should be open, that way you do not loose you depth perseption. look at the target not the gun. Roger C.

 

Case in point...A long long time ago at some shoot in Maryland, shooting on a squad with one of the greatest one eyed shooters alive, the late Don Ewing. At any rate, somewhere along the line, I noticed my front front bead was missing . So I just kept mounting the gun (BT 99) and kept concentrating on target trying to see the spin. To make a long story even longer, I broke a perfect century with no front bead. The next day went to the Virginia state shoot and took top Non res with another 100x100. Again with no front bead ''Proper gun fit and consistent mount'' it does matter.

 

Roger back when the 682 series Beretta came out I started shooting one. At that time the 682 was an under barrel. I shot singles very well with it but my handicap didn't go as well. After a while I made a spacer about 8"long that I fitted between the rib and the under barrel so it looked like I was shooting an O/U and this seemed to help my handicap shooting. I made several of these spacers for other shooters and it seemed to help especially for handicap. When they came out with a top single I went back to a top single. The problem I had then was that I seemed to move the muzzle to quick so I had Tom Wilkenson install a barrel weight when he choked the barrel. Since then I have installed Barrel Buddy's on several top singles. With the Barrel Buddy you can change the weight to suit your needs. This product is sold by Meadow Industries.

Dave Berlet

 

Hi David,
Do you remember our buddy when he had the top single made for his Beretta? He loved it, but it got him in a little trouble.
I have never seen the rib or barrel on any of the guns that I have shot trap with. The unsingle solved the problem of heat waves coming off of the brownings I used to shoot. When I went to the unsingles, I loved the clear sight picture it allowed. Remember the water fountains at Vandalia? I would run water down the barrel's of my guns between fields to remove the heat waves. I'm going to be in Ohio in June, I will spring for the donuts at the C.C. if you are interested. Roger C.

 

Personally I am seeing more searches for Un-single combo's

GB.................................DLS

 

Roger, you have a conversation PM ... Please open.

 

One of the problems I have is shooting a tapered rib gun. Ad to that a barrel that is not near the rib and I lose some of my perspective for the height of the front of the gun as it moves to the target. In my opinion you and your subconscious are challenging a target on two planes, vertical and horizontal. One of the easiest pointing guns I ever shot was a Browning broadway. I could put that muzzle and the target together very quickly. That wide flat surface allowed me to set the target on it with little effort. Most of the targets I miss are because I have shot over or under them not in front or behind. I am now shooting a 3/8" wide parallel ad on rib on my single barrel Perazzi. I prefer the old MX-8 single because they have a flat 3/8" wide rib. I then ad a 1/2" high at the muzzle ad on rib and taper it up in the back to make the gun shoot 80/20. Been working very well. Had the high overall average in the country for a veteran shooter 2018 season.

 

Great shooting.

 

Mmmmmmm...yes, I can.

 

Are you blind in your off-eye?