critique of autumn grand

Just got back from Tucson. Here are a few of my observations.

Club and Grounds. A++. The clubhouse and grounds were immaculate. Just beautiful. Trap fields were groomed. Not a piece of litter anywhere. Spotless restrooms. Even the porta potties were above average. I cannot speak to the RV park. Was not there. Perhaps someone else could comment.

Target Setting. A+. Beautiful targets all week dispite changing wind conditions. New York targets are not my favorite but they were great to shoot. Trap machines and voice calls were almost perfect. I saw no breakdowns.

Trap Help. A. Finding part time help to run 50 traps is tough. The pullers, setters, and squad hustlers were great. Saw maybe 2 people who did not perform well. Overall, I have never seen better employees on the line at a shoot of this size.

Classification and cashiering. A-. I thought classification was a bit lenient. I saw a handful of shooters assigned a class too low. I was disappointed that a satellite grand did not take credit cards. On the plus side, classifying and cashiering was very fast and efficient. Presquad was flawless.

Shoot Management. B. Overall good but some mistakes on shootoffs, especially on Sunday. There were no paper programs available. I missed that.

Trophies. C-. Given $38 entry fees I thought trophies were low in number and quality. No Class R/U trophies until Championship weekend. No yardage group trophies on Sunday Handicap. No added money on any event. My trophy on Sunday was chrome plated plastic. You had to shoot six days to qualify for HOA. Heard complaints on quality of HOA trophies.

All said I give it a A-. If you are chasing All American points, you will love this shoot. I will be back in Tucson for the Arizona chain and the state shoot. Doubtful I will be back for a satellite grand.

 

My bad. Class R/U trophies were awarded for the Class Championships.

 

How many squads shot the main handicap?

 

Rookie:
It looks like 408 entries

Ron Burdick

 

Scortion33,
The targets would have been a lot better if they had started them out every day at 10ft. or a little less. Their machines are marked to throw a 12+ foot target. With a head wind and a soft target it is pretty tough on shooters. They have a very nice club, they are just a little to lax on target setting rules. The ATA knows this and does nothing to rectify the practice. Roger C.

 

Roger,
Why would the ATA enforce Target settings?
The parameters for setting targets are in the rule book, correct?
Why do the shooters not complain to the management and get the targets set correctly?
Seems the shooters are content with the settings.
Just asking, not trying to stir the pot.
Thanks in advance for your response.

 

A friend of mine sent me a video of a squad shooting doubles, and was amazed at the presentation! Plus if you look at the scores being put up, and the overall attendance, they must be doing what the "shooters" want. It's definitely on my Bucket list of places to shoot!!!

 

Tucson has evolved and become the Premiere Clay Target Shooting Club in the State of Arizona, they just do things right ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Win101,
The ATA is the governing body for the registered target competition. Do you think that does not encompass enforcing the rules that they made to make the game the same anywhere registered targets are thrown. No where in that book does it say targets can be set to any clubs parameters. They have no bench marks to set a height pole on. They just guess at the height. I have ask for many years for them to set targets to the rule book, to no avail.
The prevailing wind is in your face at the club. When a soft target is set to high it is no fun shooting at targets that you know are going to take your butt out of competition.
The targets should be set by the book, and then do not let anyone raise or lower them. Unless they have become totally unshootable. It is possible to see the height vary 4 to 5 feet in height on any bank from field to field. The rule book is in place to equalize the degree of competition from field to field, and from club to club. Eight to ten feet in height is the same all over the world. Roger C.

 

Roger, please define "soft target".

 

I can Identify a soft target, targets not getting to the stake,,angles less than 30 degrees, all ATA target settings in the rule book are xxxxx/SOFT targets. Just look at all the Grand Slams recorded. That was not an Accomplishment, it was a GIMMEE, IT MADE THE 27 YARD TARGETS EASY, EVEN EASIER ON 16S, AND SHORT HANDICAPS.
REQUIRES NO COMPETETION, NO INTEGRIT.

GB....................................DLS

 

ATA Trap is the ONLY SPORT I HAVE EVER SEEN MAKE TARGETS EASIER, LESS DISTANCE, NARROW ANGLES, AND FASTER SHELLS TO BREAK THEM EASIER.

NUFF SAID ON THIS SUBJECT SOFT TARGETS,

GB......................................DLS

 

Well Doc, if a target lands 49-51 yards from the trap over level ground in still air could it be "soft"? If that same target lands 45 yards from the stake but a breeze from your back drives it into the ground short, is that considered "soft"? I remember setting many targets at 48 yds. with those old Western traps realizing they'd fall farther as the day went on. Were those targets "soft" too? By the way that's what was recommended in the old ATA rulebook.

 

I am talking about target settings that are short of the ATA Stats. We had an ATA president that wanted 43-44 yard targets named ROB M. TAYLOR, He wanted soft short Doubles Targets, and was incorporator of 2012PLL in Kansas to purchase ATA Office Building.

Olliedawg Are the same man today as you were 30 years ago on target settings, a competetive target, after listening to your threads I am begining to have doubts. Just like your above questions, SOFT TARGETS are targets set in still air that are short of the stake, and narrower than the Original 45 Degree angle, Those are NOT competetiove targets.

They did not shorten the 1/4 mile Drags in NHRA Championships w/ cars, not speaking of DRAGSTERS, I agreed with 1/8th mile due to terrific speeds/Times 200+mph..

I feel I am trying a LEGITIMATE Resolution, I am 77 yrs. old, I still want a 45+ degree angle, at 44=Mph, to 50-52 yards.
I was against the purchase of the PAT Traps as built, not enough hard angles, as compared to the PAT TRAPS.
Don't get me wrong, the PAT Traps can be re-designed to match the target ability to the WINCHESTER #1527 if my memory on the model is correct, but you all know what I mean.

Gary Bryant.....................................DLS

 

Well, Roger, if you and other shooters have complained for year to no avail as you say, it sounds to me like that the majority of the shooters are not aware of the correct settings. And they either gave up complaining or don't care.

As I posted, the parameters for the settings are in the rule book.
Is someone from the ATA itself supposed to be there to set targets?
The shooters should refuse to shoot until targets are set correctly in my opinion.
If enough people would complain then management would be forced to take action.

 

Doc, I hate to burst your balloon but without level ground most targets in our "old days" were set with a wink and nod. Heck, I've seen targets set where the ground dropped considerably 30 yds. in front of the traps and the stake was at the bottom of the hill. Please tell me how you could possibly know if they were legal.

On the other hand, we should remember when Doubles were actually set by adding 26 turns (I think) to the spring on those old Western traps.

 

If anyone wants to see the definition of "soft targets" and "hard targets", get off the computer and go to shoots .....

If it is a shoot that the Club has something to protect, like offering some of the Club's money for something like a Jackpot, you will see "hard targets" .....

If the Club wants shooters to show up for feel good scores, you will see "soft targets" ......

The number of people willing to travel for feel good scores or a plastic duck will continue to decline, regardless of cyber-chat definitions of target presentations .....

 

Oleo,
You profess to be a long time shooter and club manager. You certainly should know what a soft target is. Are you one of the managers that disregarded the parameters for setting targets? The rule book is very specific in the description of a properly set target. Not abiding by the rules of any competitive sport will be the down fall of it., all must compete on as level a base as possible, no mater where the competition is located.
All competitors should strive to win, but not by making the sport easier. Practice, desire, and ability, are needed to step into the champion circle. Roger C.

 

Win101,
Very few shooters know a properly set target from a poorly set one. Do you? Tucson followed the rules at their 2013 Western zone shoot. There were more trophies taken at that club than all the other clubs combined. Then went back to their lack of proper settings. Nothing learned. Roger C.

 

Yup, I set hundreds of Western traps by the book for many years. I also remember more than a few deadheads claim targets were short when looking at targets dropping near the stake standing while on the 27 yd. line. Quite frankly, it's often impossible to see precisely where a target is landing while standing at least 77 yds. away from the landing zone or stake. I suppose the definition of a soft target is one thrown less than 49 yds. or a hard target more than 51. Most of us who know anything about target setting realize that target distances (MUST) be set to the prescribed distance in still air and any idiot who touches the spring tension should have his fingers slapped by a nun with a wooden ruler. Only elevation adjustments may become necessary should wind becomes part of the equation.

Thank you for the introduction of the radar gun as most of my points have now become moot.

 

I say make the "target setting" a true guideline and then let the 'shooters" decide. Perfect example of this is a Club I managed. When I was there we used a Radar Gun and T-Bar to throw a 9.5ft target and found @44mph on our Radar gun got us to the 50yd stake. We also threw a NY Style WF to help with a 3 tiered background (Grass, Hardwoods, Sky). Recently the club started throwing an 8ft target to keep the target in the tree line. Based on the Attendance and Scores they post online, I'd say it's had a negative effect on both! I'm always amazed at how people say a 9.5-10ft target is to high, yet at clubs that throw them, the scores and attendance seem to go up?? I know it's not the opinion of most here, but I believe the Majority of shooters like attending places where they can post better scores and need to look no further than the Cardinal Center. When first opened, everyone raved about the "targets", but recently that's become the main complaint I hear and perhaps a reason for the lower attendance??? JMHO

 

The Top Fuel cars now race 1,000 ft as opposed to 1320 (1/4 Mile) ... Been that way for quite awhile ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

An 8ft. target was fine when everyone shot Model 12's, 870's and Old style BT-99's. Those were the days!

 

Oleolliedawg,
Most shooters do not understand how a field is surveyed.
On a properly set up field the 50 yd. stake is a bench mark. the top of the stake is on the same plain as the shooting pads, not at where the stake enters the ground.That is why on a field that the land falls away, one stake may be one foot high and another may be six feet high. The top of the stake is the 50 yrd. mark. It is also possible to place a stake where the field has a rise in it. the stake can be place where the 50 yd.marker bisects the ground.
I have surveyed many fields, a radar gun only helps if the user knows how to use it. He or she must also want to set a proper target.
I believe the ATA recamends a 9 1/2 foot target. Target height also can change the distance and the speed needed to get 50 distance. Especially when throwing in to a head wind, you can throw a 10 ft target properly set for speed and watch it fall short, have you ever had a request for more spring? Roger C.

 

At the 5 trap club I have belonged to since 1978 the ground falls away in front of all the traps. No much on 4 of them but enough that we had to use different length pins on those 4. We used a taller pin and would wrap a piece of tape on that pin which showed the 50yd mark.
Just asking because its been a while since I helped set the targets but wasn't that 50 yards measured on the same plane as the target sitting on the arm and not level with the shooting pads?
Like I said, its been a while.

 

Of course I've had a request for more spring. Since wind is never a constant adding spring could just as easily made the target illegal when the wind stopped or changed direction. That's why distances are always set in calm conditions.

 

Flyersbest,

The arm and the pads are supposed to be on the same plane. When many Pat's are installed the pad is cut to make up for the magazine height. This will screw up the 8 to 10 foot height rule. When the arm is lowered the flight angle is increased, thus, you can have a proper height, but the flight path will be wrong.

Oleo,

You avoided my question. Are you one of the managers that disregarded the flight rules set by the rule book????
Most shooters understand the wind effect on targets. Most also do not know a properly set target from a poorly set one. Management has the obligation to set targets by the rule book. Roger C.

 

Sure did. We went from 3-hole to 2.5 hole and finally to 2 hole. Had to keep up with the Jones's you know.

 

Olealliedawd,

No you gave in to the cheaters. If gun club managers would have complained to the ATA about the CHEATERS, it would have been nipped in the bud. We possibly would not have the problems we now have. Your state delegate could have acted to admonish the clubs that did not follow the rule book. Roger C.

 

Whine, whine, whine. If the targets were so easy where were the big scores? You guys know we can see how you shot, right?

 

jbailey,

There is a difference between whining and constructive criticism. I'm sure you know the difference do you not? If problems are not pointed out they will never be corrected.
I really do not care if you can see how we shot. Were you there? If not, how can you comment on the target flights? If you were there then you must not have very good eyesight. The wind was a major factor, but the targets were set to high to start with. The head wind made them very difficult. Roger C.

 

Roger, you've been at this game as long as me and you should remember cheating on angles began in the 70's. Heck, the premier trap readers and trap lockers made a mockery of the game far before us. The game has evolved into a party atmosphere with competition between members for the nicest motor homes and the most expensive guns. The days of small game hunting while carrying a shotgun nearly everyday ended with us and so ended the need to be proficient at shooting. Sporting Clays came around and ate our lunch while the casinos took away the gamblers. Trapshooting will continue to be on life support regardless of what hole the trap is set in.

 

Wasn't there this year but have been before. The wind in the western US is always a problem and always has been. Some people can handle it and some can't but no matter who you are it will get you sooner or later.
I do know the difference between constructive criticism and whining. Constructive criticism has a positive goal and result. Whining is whining about the ATA, it's move to Sparta etc. for 10+ years just for the fun of it I guess.
Harlan Campbell averaged .9816 on the 1200 championship targets. Wind must have quit when he was shooting.

 

jbailey,
I'm not in Harlan's class any more. I shot lead for him in Vandalia. He is one of the finest persons in the game today. The wind can be a real problem at Tucson, if a shooter can adapt to high targets they will do well , if not they are in the also ran catagory.
The move to Sparta was a huge mistake, made over the objections of a large percentage of the membership, and many still voice their concerns. The sport has been on a down hill slide for about the last 15+ years, and we see no movement by the EC to correct it. Roger C.

 

Oleolliedawg,

I'm not as concerned about the peg hole as I am about fluff targets and not setting to the rule book on target flight parameters. They should be set and never let people change them because they like high or low targets. set them by the book, change only if the are not shootable. I have seen the first squad out ask to raise well set targets. Management should not let this happen. Roger C.

 

Yes Roger, I can certainly agree with you on that one. I've also seen the last squad ask for resets. This BS should end!

 

Really? Please tell us more.

 

What would you like to know?

 

At forty bucks a hundred I don’t see why a shooter should be denied a reset if the targets are poorly set when he or she arrives at their trap. JMHO.

Shoot well.
Jon Reitz

 

Jon, Shooters are not asking to reset bad targets, they want them set to their preferences, what ever they may be. I was on a handicap squad at the Tucson club, the targets were so high when missed they would land at about the 25 or 30 yd. line. I ask a lady on the squad if she would like the targets lowered. She said NO I don't care I just shoot at them where ever they are. The rest of the squad agreed. I eked out an 89 the rest were in the low 70's.

The shooters are not asking because the targets are poorly set. Some want very high targets, they think it gives them more time to shoot. Then the next squad comes along and shoots the high targets, because they either do not know any better or just do not care. So they shoot and have no chance of winning. The targets should not be touched after they are set properly in the morning. If they become unshootable then management can reset, but not just because some one wants higher targets. It is possible to have target vary in height 4 to 5 feet on a bank.
I feel if shooters would stop and request a reset to the rule book when they encounter this situation, maybe management would stop letting shooters mess with the targets. Roger C.

 

Ditto

 

The setters at Cardinal spend the day resetting legal targets. Most of the time it's the same squads.

 

Absolutely correct and I saw it way too often. The difference from the t-bar were often only inches. As a trapsetter I would not have been generous enough to change 'em. Talk again about disrupting the harmony of a shoot!

 

Kind of comical actually. Man how the game has changed.

 

One has not lived until one has shot handicap on a late squad at Tucson on a combination (trap and skeet) field when handicap is the third event of the day. What does this have to do with target setting?

Tucson had some very calm mornings this year with only light wind out of the S, SE or ESE early. Most days the wind rotated in a counter clockwise direction and ended up as NW or WNW and with increased velocity by close of business. I never saw the traps checked between events except when going from one target to two targets or the reverse.

In my view, this illustrates the problem with using a mark on the machine to set the height. The mark on the machine can only serve its purpose in still air. In that sense, it is as a fifty yard stake. It serves to set the distance in still air. However, the 50 yard stake does double duty by serving as an indicator to adjust the field for cross winds. Why some clubs think they can pull the stakes and trash their T-posts is a mystery to me.

The only events with similar wind at the start and at the finish were the first of the day. The handicap events often started with a decent target and at some point in the event became somewhat ugly. Short of resetting 32 traps; what other avenue is available for adapting to a change in wind having a profound impact upon target presentation?

 

Par4,
The high house does put a little shadow in front of the trap house does it not. The wind whistles between those houses also, makes the sight picture a little testy. It keeps shooters on their toes, and wide awake.
They do not have 50 yard stakes or bench marks to set a height pole on, they just eye ball for height. As near as I can tell the marks on the machines are 3 clicks to high. Or the machines are setting to low in the houses. Either one will mess with the height rule. When the machine is to low in the house it changes the arc that the target follows on its flight. It also lets a head wind get under the target and push it up to new heights.
They have spent millions of dollars on the club, but can not seem to put in bench marks for the setting of targets. The ATA is to lax on the target flight rules. Roger C.

 

Roger:

I sure think they used to have 50 yard stakes and T-posts in the days of the hand sets and no speed guns. I saw some very nice targets there in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s.

Six 200s on big Singles Saturday. It was windiest day all shoot I think. It blew all day.

98 was high in the Handicap Sunday. There were two 100s in the doubles that day.

I hope to be back in both February and March. I like the total package of the town and the club. I have some nostalgia there.

 

Some of you guys sound like Neil Winston, the guy that was given an award for making the targets easier. One of the biggest problems with the sport is the lack of it. Targets are too predictable. Bunch a sissies!

Try hopscotch.

 

Par4,
It is a very nice club, but they are not customer friendly. The bottom line is their main objective. A combination of both are needed to run a successful long term business. Most of what you see there has been donated to them, Bill Martin has been a large donor for the club. He is probably the most generous man alive, along with his family and friends. Roger C.

 

All that's needs be done is create an increasingly difficult 16 yd. event. In PA we have a few 2-hole, 3-hole, 4-hole and 5-hole events for fun. It's a blast!

 

Olliedawg: Have you ever shot the West Virgina State shoot? I shot it Numerous Years, Targets were set w/a RADAR GUN by Darrell Murray, The target Height was set w/a Matchbook, all the same, and targets were ALL TH SAME, Leo Harrison showed me the Matchbook cover on Target Heights and he used it to check Target Height. The trap Fields at the WVA are all over a HILL, NO LEVEL GROUND. I am wary of your giving ficticous Winds, We all know STILL AIR.

You sound like making EXCUSES on target settings, I think you know what SOFT targets are.

GB..............................DLS

 

I agree with everything you say. I was born and raised in Ohio, now live in Colorado, and really miss Vandalia. I think Sparta is great place to shoot and probably the best facility in the US, but there will never be another Vandalia.

 

OK Doc, I'm gonna lay this on you. Here in the East most trap clubs started with one or two traps. As business got better more traps were added. We're not often blessed with miles of flat terrain as in the mid-west. Therefore, depending on who laid out the additional traps and with the mixed terrain those additional traps varied considerably. Traphouse construction allows for varied heights and targets will often look considerably different depending if the traps were built to both the high and low specs. So truthfully, you can throw out the book on what's possible making all target presentations look alike.

 

Olea,
You just entered the bull shit zone. I have shot over about any type of terrain that you can think of and targets can be set properly on any of them. All you need is a setter that is playing with a full deck. Roger C.

 

I never said they couldn't be set properly-just not all the same. I can set a breakable target on most any trap but on varying height traphouses they would likely look different. Take a traphouse built to the high end of specs and target profiles will always look thinner. Take another traphouse built to the lower end of specs and targets will look bigger even though the a stake says they're all the same. I set hundreds of traps for many years-and you, I doubt ever set even one. When you go around saying targets land 20 or 30 yards from a properly set trap you just verified how little you know. When you suggested adding more spring to targets set in calm conditions my advice is never set foot in a traphouse again if you ever did.

 

Olea,
Thaanks for you observations. I have a little experience with trap and skeet machines. My company built them for over twenty years. I helped set traps at Vandalia, and for the Spring Grand in phoenix. I surveyed many trap fields and installed bench marks to set the targets with. I have a little experience with fields and machines.
A good trap setter can set targets on a wide variety of houses . A bad setter can set poor targets on perfect fields. Excuse makers can only blame conditions on their failure to do the job. Where do you fit in to the equasion just described?
Roger C.

 

I've got a reputation as a great trap setter. Surely you can set a good breakable target on most any field but some will always be better than others. Let's put in another way. A Pollock comes around in 1960 and decides to build a trap field or two. All fine and dandy. In 1990 a few Dutchman get together and figure it's time to add a couple more. In PA we seldom see clubs lucky enough to have perfectly level fields. Please tell all of us what the chances are to have all those houses identical, the traps mounted in exactly the same location on the pedestal and near perfect backgrounds. Then tell all of us what hole you always set those blueprinted traps in!

 

OLEO,
Quite trying to make a case for poor setting of program traps. There is a book on how to build a trap houses. It should be used. It does not take a perfectly level area to set trap targets to the required height or spread. Your excuses are a cop out for poorly set targets.
We set the traps in 3 holes, with good conditions, in 2 hole with a strong head wind. We always followed to the height rule.
Roger C.

 

It might just be me, but each time I read about the history of how targets were intended to be set, or the early rules, including the below 1924 rules regarding the "Flights and Angles" of targets, I get the feeling that the "perfect target" was not a consideration when the sport was created. I base my understanding on the broad allowances given to the height, angles and distance settings.

Perhaps decisions over the decades, to reduce these parameters, is also a factor in the decline in registered shooting.

I'd appreciate reading the thoughts of others.

HB

1924 ATA Rules

​

 

H.B.
Not much has changed . Height has change. bench mark to set height has not changed. distance has been tightened up.
When a comparison is made of the machines and targets, used then and now, much has changed.
The big change is the attitude of the shooters, and the clubs. The bottom line has taken over and the difficulty of the sport has been reduced to a feel good sport. Every one involved in a shoot can not be the champ. Roger C.

 

"distance has tightened up". So at one time it was 48-52 yds. and now it's 49-51 yds. So I suppose you believe the targets were made harder or easier? Our dear friend Sir Neil often states the targets at Vandalia were set in the 2-hole when he was in charge. The difficulty of the sport was made much easier when voice activated release systems were implemented. Do you recommend we go back to hand pullers to increase difficulty? I suppose you fail to remember the days before interrupters when reading traps was practiced by some of the best shooters. Do you recommend we remove trapshooting records from those proficient trap readers and trap lockers? If targets set in the 3-hole are the answer to reduced attendance then why not 4-hole-there, that oughta do it. This sport has graduated to a population of aging crybabies who cannot carry those AA averages anymore so some find just one more excuse for a poor performance.

FYI, I spent the day shooting Sporting Clays at LV with my two sons. The parking lot was packed and long waits the norm. The breeze made some presentations vary considerably but I heard not one shooter moaning and groaning. My #1 son made the same trip on Good Friday and waited 1.5 hrs. to get on the course with a temp. of 31 and cold wind. What's really wrong with trapshooting today are crybabies who demand resets for targets that are perfectly LEGAL but may not be to their liking. Then we wonder why shoots take so long to finish and why attendance drops.

Then please tell us again why targets were set in the 2-hole for an incoming wind. What was the sustained wind velocity that demanded that change. I've been around a few years and I've never heard of a sustained wind speed-and you? So when the "sustained wind" dropped off at the end of the day did you demand all traps be set in the 3-hole because they were now "illegal"?

 

HB,
I read the articles you post with great anticipation and usually find exactly what I am looking for, again you have not failed me ... I would like to think the peramiters of how to set a target is getting to the point people want them exactly here or there every shot with little or no deviation ... I can remember feeling good breaking a 96 in a handicap event because it was something to feel good about ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

OLEO,
You are starting to babble. The biggest change is the clubs and shooters do not want to follow the rules. That leads to the demise of any regulated sport. Roger C.

 

Sorry Roger, I'm sure most clubs are following target setting rules. The biggest problem is shooters continually demanding resets of perfectly LEGAL targets. It's about time they put on their big boy pants and shoot what's thrown. The rulebook specifically states targets must be thrown between 8 and 10 ft. high measured 10 yds from the trap arm-quite a bit of leeway there and all are LEGAL. Have you ever read the rulebook? Don't ya just love it when crybabies demand a reset and the target misses the t-bar just a few inches? Happens all the time. So Roger, you can remain in denial but you cannot dispute my "babble".

 

OLEodawg: I wholeheartedly Disagree w/ you, You are always making excuses, Anything I or Roger Say just seems to IRE you, you want to find excuses, Shooters want to find excuses, I just shoot what the squad in front of me shot, unless they are really bad all the time, not once in a while, I observe the squad in front of me.

GB..............................DLS

 

Looks like I made the wall of fame!

 

HB....as always, thanks for the graphics. That drawing will be a big part of trapshooting in the future. The difference will be targets 6 yards further. Minimum 45 degrees. At least that wide. Coming soon!

 

Ya better make sure existing traphouses can accept much wider angles!

 

Nope....I don't. They will. Just a heads up. 45 degrees is coming.

 

Oleo,
A couple of years ago we were discussing target setting. I made the statement that it is hard to find two clubs that set the targets the same, and I shoot my way all across this country. Phil Kinner, answered that I was not correct, it is impossible to find two traps at any club set the same.
I have shot in over 16 states and every zone in this country, and following the target setting parameters is the most abused rule on the books. Managers will not refuse to reset properly set targets. They let every one raise or lower them at will. Many of them do not know what a properly set target looks like.
If the arm on the machine is not on the same height plane as the shooting stations. It is impossible to get a proper arc on the target. In my observance of the machine placement I have seen a lot of machines that are to low in the house, this messes with the target flights.
Neil we need a graph.
show the arc of a target with the arm on the same level as the pads. Then one with the machine 1 foot below and 1 foot above the pads. (PLEASE) Roger C.

 

I would rather see a rule preventing all targets from being the same.

 

A properly set target begins at 43 mph, a straightaway on post 3 from a locked trap and an elevation between 8 and 10 ft at 10 yds. from the traphouse. Anything else is just fluff.

 

Hmmm.....properly? By who's standard?

 

White Flyer told me only about 1 of 10 targets are registered in PA and OH. Tell me how many want those perrrrfect targets.

 

The official ATA rules book. I'm staring at it right now. Page 46 and 47.

 

Maybe some refuse to believe this little book even exists.

 

Note: Bold and underline highlights are mine. Notice the use of the words recommended and should instead of required and must. Also note that there is only a 1 mph difference between the ATA minimum and maximum speed when using a radar gun. The Decatur radar gun specs list an accuracy of plus or minus 1 mph. I could not find an accuracy rating on the Stalker gun. The result is a radar gun with an accuracy of plus or minus 1 mph can not insure a correct ATA speed of 42-43 mph for singles or handicap target. Same applies to the correct min/max speed for doubles.


SECTION XIII

STANDARDS FOR TRAPHOUSES, TARGETS, TARGET SETTING,

GUNS AND AMMUNITION

A. TRAP MACHINE

A trap machine, which throws targets at an unknown angle, shall be used. All

trap machines used to throw ATA registered targets shall be so manufactured,

modified, or equipped as to interrupt irregularly the oscillation of the trap or

otherwise assure the unpredictability of the flight of substantially all targets thrown.

46

Each gun club that throws ATA registered targets must have on file in the

ATA main offices a signed Affidavit that the trap machines used to throw

registered targets meet the requirements of this rule. The State/Provincial

ATA Delegate is responsible for the enforcement of this Rule.

B. TRAPHOUSES

Traphouses must adequately protect the trap loaders and shall not be

higher than necessary for that purpose. It is recommended that traphouses

constructed after September 1, 2003 shall conform to the following

specifications:

1. Length not less than 7 feet, 6 inches, nor more than 9 feet, 6 inches.

2. Width not less than 7 feet, 6 inches, nor more than 9 feet, 6 inches.

3. Height not less than 2 feet, 2 inches, nor more than 3 feet, 0 inches, the

height to be measured from the plane of the number 3 shooting position.

It is recommended that the throwing surface (throwing arm or plate) of the

trap machine be on the same level as that of Post 3 and the target height

setting pad.

C. POSTS

The posts shall be 3 yards apart on the circumference of a circle whose

radius is 16 yards. Handicap posts, when used, shall be prolongations of

the lines given in Diagram I (p. 55), commonly known as fan shaped. The

distance between posts at 16-yards shall then be 3 yards.

D. TARGETS

No target shall measure more than four and five-sixteenths (4 5/16) inches

in diameter, and not more than one and one-eighth (1 1/8) inches in height.

A target shall not weigh less than 95 grams or more than 105 grams with

an allowable variation of plus or minus 5 grams per target lot. A target lot

is defined as all targets with the same production number.

E. FLIGHTS AND ANGLES

Singles targets shall be thrown not less than 49 yards nor more than 51

yards. Distance measurements are on level ground in still air. Targets

shall be between 8 feet and 10 feet high, when 10 yards from Point B.

The recommended height is 9 or 9 1/2 feet. The height at a point 10 yards

from Point B is to be understood to mean height above an imaginary

horizontal straight line drawn through the post and Point B. (See Diagram

II) (See also the alternative to setting by distance - setting by speed - in

Section F, following.)

Target height may also be set based on the height of the target at ten

yards as measured above the level of the trap arm in the house rather

than the height as measured from the number 3 shooting station. This is

the recommended procedure at facilities where the installation of traps in

the houses is inconsistent as to height.

Point B is defined as the intersection of a line measured 1 foot 6 inches

from the outside vertical wall (farthest from the shooting stations) of the

trap house and the centerline of the trap house. Please review Diagram I

on page 54. If the trap machine manufacturer specifies a dimension other

47

than 1 foot 6 inches, that dimension may be used in construction of the

trap house. Clubs constructing new trap house and fields should use the

same point B measurement as their existing fields to keep all fields as

consistent as possible, provided the same trap machines are being used.

In Singles shooting the trap shall be so adjusted that within the normal

distribution of angles as thrown by the trap, the right angle shall not be less

than 17 degrees measured to the right of center (3BF), and not less than

17 degrees measured to the left of center (3BF), with a total angle between

outside target limits of not less than 34 degrees. (See Diagram II) Trap

machines shall be adjusted so as to throw not less than equivalent angles.

Where terrain allows, a visible stake may be placed on the centerline of the

trap on the arc of a circle that has a radius of 50 yards and its center is Point

B (Point F, Diagram II). To help in determining legal angles, stakes may be

placed on the arc of a circle that has a radius of 50 yards and its center is

Point B. One stake should be placed where a line drawn through Point A

and Point B intersects this arc and another stake placed where a line drawn

through Point C and Point B intersects the arc These lines and stakes will

assist in determining the required angles, but it is to be understood that the


angle specifications apply when the target is from 15 yards to 20 yards from


the trap rather than where the target strikes the ground. However, no target

is to be declared illegal unless it is significantly outside normal parameters

(e.g., more than 10 degrees outside normal).

In doubles shooting, targets shall be thrown not less than 44 yards nor more

than 46 yards. Distance measurements are on level ground in still air. Targets

shall be between 8 feet and 10 feet high when 10 yards from point B. The

recommended height is 9 or 9 1/2 feet. The height at a point 10 yards from Point

B is to be understood to mean height above an imaginary horizontal straight

line drawn through the post and Point B (See Diagram II). The trap shall be

adjusted so the angle of target spread is not less than 34 degrees. (See the

alternative to setting by distance - setting by speed - in Section F, following.)

Target height may also be set based on the height of the target at ten yards

as measured above the level of the trap arm in the house rather than the

height as measured from the number 3 shooting station.

The 17 degree angle will appear to be a straight-away from a point 3 1/2 feet

to the right of post 1; the 17 degree angle will appear to be a straight- away

from a point 3 1/2 feet to the left of post 5. This 17 degree angle refers to

the flight line of the target from the house to 15 or 20 yards out and can be

used for singles, handicap, and doubles targets.

F.

RULES FOR THE USE OF RADAR GUNS AND CHRONOGRAPHS

TO SET TARGET SPEED

There are two types of radar guns, high-power and low-power. The practical

difference between them is that high-power guns work reliably from the

16-yard line and low-power guns don’t.

High-power guns (Decatur, Stalker, most “police radar guns” and similar)

48

may be used at the 16-yard line. The trap oscillation is stopped, and the

target measured is a straightaway. The gun is pointed horizontally. The

correct speed for a singles or handicap target

is a minimum

of 42 MPH,

maximum 43 MPH. The correct speed for the right target of a doubles pair

must be a minimum

of 39 MPH, maximum of 40 MPH.

Low-power guns (SportRadar, Bushnell, and similar) are to be used at the

back of the traphouse and at the level of the top of the traphouse. (Holding

the gun higher than that will lead to a target which is too fast.) The trap

oscillation is stopped, and the target measured is a straightaway. The gun

is pointed horizontally. The correct speed for a singles or handicap target

must be a minimum

of 42 MPH, maximum of 43 MPH. The correct speed

for the right target of a doubles pair

must be a minimum

of 39 MPH,

maximum of 40 MPH. When a radar gun is used from inside the house,

the correct speed for a singles or handicap target

must be a minimum

of 44 MPH, maximum of 45 MPH. The correct speed for the right target

of a doubles pair

must be a minimum

of 41 MPH, maximum of 42 MPH.

A chronograph is to be used as close to the trap as practical and tipped

up at approximately the same angle as the flight of the target. The correct

speed for a singles or handicap target is 67 ft/sec minimum, maximum of

69 ft/sec. To set doubles with a chronograph, set a singles target to 76 ft/

sec minimum, maximum 78 ft/sec. and then switch the trap to throw doubles

without changing the spring tension.

Note: target speed may be set by distance as above or by speed as

determined by a radar gun or chronograph. Target must be set by measured

speed or distance.

 

Nicely done and not too difficult to understand-for some of us.

 

The above referenced info by Garry can be summed up as follows.

Targets shall be easy enough to make everyone feel like they accomplished something without regard to sport.
Graph please.

 

The idea of closely surveying a field so targets can be exactly where we want them to be when the trigger is pulled is comical. Got another graph?

 

No way varying height traphouses can throw an identical looking target. Trap "A" will allow a bit more profile while trap "B" targets will appear thinner and the pulls a bit slower. That's with both targets set at 9ft.

 

Just the facts FG, just the facts.

 

FG, what's your definition of coming soon? Where and when?

Thanks

 

F.G.
It is not wanting all targets to be the same. It is the need to have uniformity as a starting point for the setting of the machine. If all clubs can just put targets in the air we will have an organization of club shooters. That would mean the end of a national champion, and kill the clubs as the incubator of registered targets.
Many club shooters can not hit their ass with both hands when they are at another club, If they are used to 12 ft. 2 hole targets and then run into 8 ft. 3 hole targets they are dead in the water. We do not want to go over board by making radical changes. just get the game back on a stiff uniform level, and make it competitive again. Roger C.

 

Roger, where's the last place you shot registered 8'-3-hole targets? I haven't seen 'em in PA, FL, NJ or NY or OH.

 

Merriam-Webster definition of competitive (adjective)

Of or relating to a situation in which people or groups are trying to win a contest or be more successful than others : relating to or involving competition. : having a strong desire to win or be the best at something. : as good as or better than others of the same kind : able to compete successfully with others.

Will making the sport of trapshooting more competitive more likely or less likely to increase the number of individuals shooting trap and/or the number of trap targets thrown per year ?

 

FG, we can only hope.

And you know what, that MIGHT save this sport.

(It wouldn't hurt if we OLD trapshooters were a little less crotchety and were more encouraging and kind to new shooters and spent less time bitching about social and political issues and more time interested in bringing along those new shooters. [Even new shooters who might not agree with our world view.] Just sayin.)

 

Garry, We had I think over 80000 members when the tougher targets were thrown.
Jake, the targets were made easier for the new members to make them want to stay, that did not work out to well
did it? I THINK WE HAVE ABOUT 33000 MEMBERS NOW.
Oleo, I used that height statement as an example. You admitted that you threw fluff targets to attract shooters. How did that work out for your club. Are you over run by shooters now? It has not improved the attendance at Sparta or any of the other Grand events. We at the old Phoenix club would field as many as 750 shooters at our chain shoot, and we threw tough targets, and no fields were change to any shooters preferred target settings. Roger C.

 

I see you fail to remember only the lesser specimen shooters were affected by 3-hole targets while the informed hotshots shot mostly straightaways or simply fired at angles knowing what they were getting. I see you know nothing about locking a trap either. 8ft. targets were popular in the days of Model 12's and 870's but with everyone shooting high impacting guns today they're part of the distant past.

If 3-hole targets are so great why not 4-hole or even wider. If you believe that can save trapshooting I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell you cheap. If you believe more pewter plates, flashlights, or shell bags in more classes is the answer then it's time to address your fantasies with professional help. Trapshooting lost the gamblers when they failed to update the handicap system and off they went to the casinos. It quickly became a game of rich old men who still can't shoot but can brag about their high priced shotgun and expensive motor home. More than a few are angry because some young hotshots are winning trinkets they feel entitled to. God forbid they'd play a dime in options.

While ATA shooting continues a downward spiral our local Winter league experienced it's largest participation since 1991-just short of 500 shooters. It might be because we offer nearly $14,000 in cash prizes with few trinkets. Yes, all the participating clubs throw 2-hole targets and the scores needed to win are nearly the same for over 50 years. FYI, several of the participants are ATA Grand Slam holders and ATA All-Americans.

 

OLEO,

I have never stated I want 3 hole targets, if fact I posted that I do not think it will make a difference. You and others blame the old men in this game, you are wrong. The problem is we have at the helm of the ATA a group that for the last 15+ years has made many bad decisions and are to obstinate to reverse any of them. All I have pushed for is target confomity in all clubs that register targets. Yes I would like to see more yards added to the doubles targets. I would also like to see 9 1/2 foot targets set every morning. I would like to see management refuse to change targets that are properly set. Yes I would like to see the criteria for placing a machine in the trap house revived to read that the throwing arm must be on the same bench mark as the shooting pads. I am also an advocate for a 30 yard line. That is the only way to come close to equalizing the handicap part of our sport.
There is no one thing that is causing our sport to decline. It is being caused by many changes that the shooters are not happy with. Club managers are also at fault, they cater to the johnny come lateleys that can not or will not be champions because they will not put forth the effort that it takes to be a top dog. They would rather shoot for a trinket,and not for the money. Roger C.

 

Believe it or not most of the men at the top of the ATA food chain are as old as you and me or even older. So at what age group should we really direct our dissatisfaction?

 

Oleo,
The dissatisfaction must be directed at all members, and club managers that DO NOT UPHOLD THE RULES OF THE SPORT. The new members first contact is with the club managers they must instill the rules in them at the earliest convenience. Mostly the people that have made the poor decisions should be chastised. Also they should be removed before they can do more harm to the sport.
The old guys will soon be gone, what will be left are the shooters that will never know the joy of what this sport was at one time. I think it is time for a completely new organization to represent shooters. The ATA let the sporting clays stomp their sorry asses in the ground. They never tried to do anything to counter act them. If they loose another 50%of their shooters they can bail out of Sparta and go to a small club. I have nothing against the ATA organization, I do have a problem with the people that let the registered shooters down with their miss management of the organization. Roger C.

 

OLEO,
I do remember the uninterrupted traps that could be locked in one position. That ended with the introduction of the mechanical interrupters. I built them for over 20 years and had guys try and tell me that they could read them. That was bullshit. They may have guessed most of the time but no one could read them all of the time. If the lobe on the interrupter gear was not altered there was no pattern to the interrupter process. The Pats are easier to read than any machine on the market today. Reading traps today is not a very good practice. Roger C.