N1H1 Return the gun please....others as well.

Open note to N1H1. Please return the gun you said received. According to the Assistant AG in Illinois it was against the bylaws. I am taking your word you took what you called a "Presidential Gun." It was username N1H1, whomever you are, or that is, that made the claim on another thread.

Return it as soon as possible.

 

I'm sure that if you had spent the time and money doing the job of president and what it takes to get there, you too would deserve a commemorative gun. At least 5 years as delegate before becoming a zone VP, then another 5 years till your term as president ends. Isn't 10 years out of your life worth a gun? Doesn't the president of the NRA also receive a gun? I personally think that it's a well deserved THANK YOU.

Ed Yanchok

 

You don't deserve anything that is against the bylaws you are there to protect and uphold. You don't get to put your hand in the cash register once in a while cause you have some seniority or because someone on the earlier shift did it.

And I don't give a rat's ass about the NRA. I don't care what the Square Earth Society gives it's members. I care(d) about our bylaws. It is unfortunate some did not.

Thanks for nothing.

 

I've belonged to and was president of several clubs and organizations and have received gifts when my term ended, sometime a plaque and sometime a gavel, but I think that most give a gift showing their appreciation for the job performance.
Perhaps your disapproval of a gun as a gift is the cost which I believe is bought at a greatly discounted price, from the manufacturer

Ed Yanchok

 

NOPE!!! It is because it was forbidden! Do you understand that ED? AGAINST THE RULES / BYLAWS ! ! !

 

As I read the bylaws, I saw nothing against the organization giving or not giving a gift to the outgoing president.
Ed Yanchok

 

Do you think N1H1 knew anything about the bylaws? The bylaws have been changed ED at the order of the Assistant AG in Illinois.

 

I believe that the bylaws had no provision for gifts, and have been revised to allow such. Just like the rules must be modified annually to keep current, so must the bylaws.

Ed Yanchok

 

I won't get an answer but I'll ask again anyway

Tell us all why you DESERVED that "gift"

 

Maybe I can help.





The part where it says "shall serve without compensation" is clear even to me.
Typed with my new thumbs. Info given by pals in the trenches is greatly appreciated.

I report. You decide.
Merlo out

 

So what do you think ED? Do you think the above paragraphs were above N1's comprehension? Could he have been that poorly read? You must know him better than me. How about those before and after him?

 

I've only met him a couple of times so I don't really know him but I wouldn't consider a gift gun, compensation. I'm pretty sure that most past presidents served as I pointed out above.

Ed Yanchok

 

Huh? Not compensation?
Do you remember this statement by you--->? "Isn't 10 years out of your life worth a gun? "

Or do you remember this gem from above?-->? "doing the job of president and what it takes to get there, you too would deserve a commemorative gun."

 

You take the job that says you don't get compensation as per bylaws. These guys need to return the guns they gave each other.

 

The IRS must not agree ..... hence the "1099" given to ol'N1H1 for the "gun" ......

I would like to know if the "1099's" were given for the actual price of each "gun", or all were/are for the exact same amount regardless of any possible price differences in the "guns" .....

 

I'm pretty sure that if N1H1 was given a 1099, he probably paid the bill

Ed Yanchok

 

He may have paid "the bill" ..... the IRS must consider it "compensation", or there wouldn't be a "1099 bill" .....

 

You are all over the place on this ED. First you say it wasn't compensation then you say N1 paid the IRS charge.

Either way I don't give a rats ass about the IRS charges. I only care about bylaw violations. Paying the taxes on an item you may not have deserved doesn't justify anything. jmho

 

User 1 said that he got a 1099, not me. I just assumed that if he got the bill, he paid it. Wouldn't you?

 

I can understand that. The boys "assumed" the members that PAID THE DUES AND FEES wouldn't care if the outgoing president was given a gun worth around 15K. Paid for with those DUES AND FEES.

Lets get to the rat killing here.
According to its own Bi-Laws the ata couldn't pay someone a salary.
Every one of these guys knew that when they took the job.
The head honchos wanted to give the outgoing "president" something nice to say thanks so they came up with a little "thank you" note. The note just happened to be attached to the trigger guard of a $15,000.00 + shotgun.
No one screamed bloody hell when the dues and fees were used to purchase this expensive shotgun so they thought, what the hell, that worked OK. The DUES AND FEES PAYING members must not care so we can keep doing it.
This went on for years because some, I would venture MOST, members didn't know about this little "thank you" note OR, in the saddest case, there were members that thought this was just fine.
When it finally came to light, IL. telling them it was against their own bi laws, they had a meeting, CHANGED the bi laws so no one could question them ever again, and acted like it never happened.

Simple really, WHAT YOU ALL DON'T KNOW WON'T HURT US.

 

The president also gets a $20,000 account to use as he see's fit during his year as president ... So, that would add up to $35,0000 plus for that year, not bad for a volunteer position .... That should be taxable as well ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Let's see...the poll on this forum had mixed and inconclusive results from about 100 responses. Not a clear-cut mandate...even from the anti-ATA troops among the thousands of members. Not many know or even care. Have a Nice Day. Ed

 

Many of the tens of thousands who were part of the mass exodus may have "cared" much more than you give credit .....

Just because so few care to spend time in cyber-land "talking" about things that will not change ..... that should not be an indication of how many "cared" .....

 

Good point. Meanwhile, why waste time whining about things... "that will not change"? Just a thought.... Regards, Ed

 

Old Goat
Who is whining? More like demanding! That is the job of the members right. Give the guns back.
As to the changes....We did force changes. Many thanks to an open forum, a nosy forum member (Merlo), and an Assistant AG. More changes coming!

Odd man out may be the last person standing with one of those il-gotten guns.

 

I can see why DEDPAIR agrees with Old Goat and the turn the other cheek attitude. His pals in PA did the same thing. You wont find where any of his pals questioned the free K80's.

 

I always find it interesting what people call cyber-chat from one day to the next ..... One day it is "bashing", the next "whining", I guess call it whatever you feel the need to .....

I will keep saying, in my opinion there is no hope for the ATA ..... So, just to be clear, my "bashing/whining" is for something to replace the ATA, so "organized Trapshooting" can move forward, and leave the "save Sparta at all cost" self-serving people behind .....

 

Whining? Not me, never did. I posted here before that the number of "shooters" actually shooting the gah event is PATHETIC compared to what it used to be when the Grand was closer to more shooters. That is a fact not a whine. There will NEVER be the golden age of trapshooting again. Not whining about it, just stating a fact.

I also posted that I hoped the shoot they call the Grand stayed right where it is and NEVER moved from that place in IL. I hope that long after I'm dead and buried that place is still there. I hope the state of IL washes its hands of it and sells it all to the ata organization and they can keep it there even if it cost every cent they can scrape together( beg, borrow, or STEAL) to keep that shoot going. I hope the dues go to $500.00 per year and you lucky guys that are young enough to be shooting registered targets when it happens have a wonderful time. I hope it cost you $75.00 per hundred and you can win your day money back when you break them all in a caps event. Not whining or bashing, wishing you all good luck.

Anyone that's thinks the ata is just fine deserves to have such a wonderful place to shoot. More power to ya. Go get 'em.

 

We haven't had a President from PA since 1991 and he died in Office and never received his "Gift", so perhaps the other 27 States who fielded an ATA President since should be your focus? Since you have me at a disadvantage to knowing State of Residence, perhaps you should signal out your own Representative!

 

"I hope the dues go to $500.00 per year and you lucky guys that are young enough to be shooting registered targets when it happens have a wonderful time. I hope it cost you $75.00 per hundred"

It should never get to that ..... Just go back through the propaganda and you may find a reverse "money problem" ......

Around the years 2005/2006 , the daily propaganda was the ATA was near broke, had to move, had to accept the "Sparta deal" because there was NOT ENOUGH MONEY to do anything else ......

So now, could it be a "Hedge Fund" that has the ATA in the 17-ish million dollar "worth" range, as per some people's "reporting" ??????

Or, can a "near broke/no money ATA" take the current pricing and declining membership/participation in BFE under "minimum operation standards", and gain worth ??????? If so, why would "dues" and "registered target fees" need the large increase ??????

Makes One wonder why the "IRS" never questions how it may be possible to take the declining membership/participation at the current pricing, and produce such an increased worth, in BFE under "minimum operation standards" ......

 

The ATA is profitable every year, that includes the grand even though the State of Illinois was losing money the ATA made money … The ATA could exist on the daily fees collected on their behalf from the registered shoots every week end then add in the mini grands all the time where the clubs pay big money for the ATA trophy's, the expenses of the EC, ED, and some of the BOD who are in the clik … The ATA is not and has not looked out for the members for a number of years but they make sure the Cash Cow Account is able to cover the costs for all of the travelers to be able to go and party on the clubs dime while the clubs pays their way … If the IRS would go in and do an audit, I have feeling they would have a field day … The ATA is set like it is by design so the ED, EC, and many of the BOD are well taken care of and the hell with the members … WPT … (YAC) …

 

"The ATA could exist on the daily fees collected on their behalf from the registered shoots every week end then add in the mini grands all the time where the clubs pay big money for the ATA trophy's, the expenses of the EC, ED, and some of the BOD who are in the clik ...."

"Exist" ..... maybe ..... but, where is all the excess "millions in worth" coming from ?????

Those things should have made more money from 1995 to 2005, when membership and participation numbers seemed to be much higher ..... But, it seems the ATA had little to no money and had to move to Sparta .....

Then from 2005 to 2015 those same things, with what seems to be much lower membership and participation numbers, lets the ATA now claim to have many millions of worth .....

 

Some of you guys must still be shooting Remington 870's and Mossberg 500's. What's a lousy $15,000 for a gun when a large percentage of those SCTP kids are owning a similar gun too. Some say "give it back" but I say to whom. Do I notice a bit of envy here? Time to give it up.

 

DEDPAIR...the subject was turning the other cheek. Looking the other way. All the PA delegates looked the other way. At least according to the minutes.

 

I did not make the post to show ATA hate. Only that the gun(s) get returned to the membership.

 

For One Year as an ATA President, deserve a $20,000 dollar retail gun? Absolutely NOT.


GB...............................DLS

 

Whats wrong with a Bottle Of Crown Royal to drink at home for a present/

GB...............................DLS

 

Still have an older 28" full 870, field with a rib. Used it for the single barrel races. Never owned a 500.

Envy? I wouldn't call it envy but I bet the parents that had to PAY for those guns their kids are shooting would have loved to have been able to get one for FREE.

As far as what to do with them if they gave them back?

Put them in the hof building with a sign stating that these guns were the rare "presidential models". Kind of like the Perazzi display they used to hang on that horizontal display. Maybe a nice big color background pic with their faces and names on it.

"These 10 guns represent over $150,000.00 dollars members of the the ata spent as a small gesture of appreciation."

Of course the hof would have to hire someone to stand there and answer the first question out of everyone's mouth.

What the HELL did they do to DESERVE that much?

 

Anyone have any doubts Krieghoff gave the ATA a real special deal for the Presidential Presentation shotgun? Heck, they actually gave away a totally free one for many years at the PA State shoot. Don't ask me how I know!

 

Yeah I have more than doubts. If it was on the up and up the EC would have been parading the gun giveaway at the grand. It was kept secret for a reason.

Or maybe one of the more knowing cronies can show it on a balance sheet. And FYI....I talked to the Assistant AG.

 

Ollie...it is $16,500. Krieghoff doesn't make guns for free.

 

If the AG has talked about the case out side of the courts, he has lost the case

 

They do in PA. Give 'em away free that is.

 

BS dawg. Krieghoff does a lot of advertising there. They have been charging 16K+ for the guns given to the ATA cronies. How did the gun sales go with Neil? Does the wind blow E to W in PA?

Note to n1h1, Bradford, and the rest that got awarded with guns following the move---you guys aren't worth blood in a Sparta bed bug.

 

Interviewing and gathering information is what AG's do. Did you think they only talk to themselves? Good grief!

 

What changed ?????

It seems for very many years people served WITHOUT "getting a gun" ..... So, what changed to make it OK for it to start with a certain person ?????

And, once the first one was "given", did they go back to all living past presidents that didn't get one, and give them one ???

 

The Gun Grabbers who got guns are in no way ever going to give them back or hand them over without a Court Order to do so, I think we all know that … Those people are in it for what they can get out of it, not to better or preserve the Organization for generations to come … There was a time when people would talk about volunteering (which has a few minor rewards) besides being able to say they were a part of something on the Level the ATA once was … The recognition seemed to be fulfilling enough back then before the ATA became the Cash Cow for the Elite … WPT … (YAC) …

 

I believe Neil received a Perazzi. I doubt the amount we charge (if any) Krieghoff for advertising has much effect on their local sales. So what's a mere $16,000 for a shotgun that plenty of young kids currently own and shoot? Just a mere blip in the big scheme of things.

 

I think the amount of money, plus expenses, and $20,000 (presidents check) to be used at his discretion is over the Top for what was at one time a done by people for gratis or a few just rewards along the way … The ATA is set up in such a way it cannot help but make money but not by those who are in charge of it now and piss away the members money like drunken sailors (no offense to all the drunken sailors) out there … The ED (Lynn the talking head ) Gipson) is so full of BS it makes one wonder how he can get the words out without choking, in making some statements he must assume everyone is a dumb as he is or he is spreading lies he is told to spread by those in charge … The only good thing about it, is sooner or later they will be held accountable not only by the membership but quite possibly to a Court of Law or a Federal Court … The respect for the ED, EC and many on the BOD is long gone probably never to be seen or heard from again … WPT … (YAC) …

 

If it is against the bylaws it is theft in my opinion. Could be morals are much different in the olliedawg family. And before you tell me how old you are.....I don't care.

 

Well, I'm over 70 and I've got a K-80 here somewhere although my SX-1 has become my go to gun. My wife shoots a Suhl grade K-80 and pretty good at that. My 11 yo son currently shoots a Krieghoff Trap Special and is a work in progress. I worked for the original Krieghoff import facility for a few years so I suppose you can say I'm quite familiar with the operation.

My advice to you is understand that by-laws violations mean crap in the big world of law enforcement. You're beating a dead horse. Now get a part time job and you too can join the Krieghoff family of fine shotgun owners instead of bitching and moaning about others. I suppose because I purchased my K-80's from widows and disgruntled owners for nearly half the going price it reflects badly on my morals. Next time you go out and buy a car be sure to be happy giving the salesman full price without negotiating. So much for morals-who cares if the salesman has a wife and kids that needs to eat.

 

Not true dawg. Certainly you know more about law enforcement and attorney generals to post such nonsense. The AG gave a fair warning to the EC. The EC had an emergency meeting immediately and changed the by-laws.

I am not sure about the other senile ramblings about widows are about. And not sure about the salesman crap but taking capital from a charity against the bylaws can get your ass in jail.

Giving away capital illegally could have the same affect. Try it.

 

So, after that so-called special meeting and warning from the AG to amend the by-laws please tell all of us who got fined or who was prosecuted and doing time. I'll tell you from experience-absolutely no one. That is simply because law enforcement and the courts are very reluctant to involve themselves in matters within private organizations. While you're at it please tell all of us how many people you know were prosecuted for by-laws violations. I'll answer for you-absolutely none. As a former manager of a 1,200 to 1,500 member organization I was often confronted with by-laws violations. My lawyer gave me the same advice I'm giving you if you can hear. The AG dealt with the complaint as prudently as possible and the situation was corrected to his satisfaction.

If you still believe the ATA President was unfairly compensated for years of meetings, putting up with nonsensical accusations and suggestions then my advice to begin the quest for the position. The musical chairs ascent to the top begins in your state. I'll bet you'll spend far more than a lousy $15,000.00 to get there.

 

I am not questioning the number of times you took funds illegally from 501c charities. I will take your word.

How much it takes me to get to the top of the shit pile of the friends you are now supporting is irrelevant.

How would you know that? If the investigation into this stuff was even started I am sure it will continue as long as someone is poking the fire. Reading this forum I am sure that is happening.

Until the date of possible indictments I would keep my head low and stay out of Illinois.

 

I'm gonna make a suggestion. Instead of worrying yourself to death over a lousy $15,000.00 gun I suggest you cast your net farther. Don't ask me how I know!

 

oleoliedawg,
Are you referring to the, pull 2012 deal, or the spending $750,000.00 on new machines without a quote, or the machines that were paid for that never showed up in Sparta? and the list goes on. SHOULD THAT NET ENCOMPASS ANY OF THOSE ITEMS? Inquiring minds would like to know. Roger C.

 

Now Rog, you're getting somewhere. The by-laws violation is small potatoes and was resolved to the AG's satisfaction. If someone actually knows taxes weren't paid by the recipients of those $15,000 guns then notifying the IRS as a whistleblower and claiming a percentage of the settlement is possible. It sure beats bitching about it on the internet and could prove to be a nice down payment on a new $15,000 K-80.

In the meantime it might be best to find others who may have had access to that expense account money. A few surprises possible?

 

Oleolliedawg.
I have had discussions with some past employees of the ATA. I can not remember their names, but there were many under the table deals done with ATA funds that were not legal. Also many times the word kick back was used. Roger C.

 

Many of those that got the free K80's were there for the PULL2012. Kinda funny, Why the forum mods would allow such ilk on the forum? jmho

 

I would imagine that if the President had a $20,00 account, it would be an "expense account" for travel.meals and lodging. Not considered earned income, or compensation, and therefore not a tax item for him.

 

Funny statement. If you are given $20K by a company to pay for things that only cost $500, and the difference is not on your tax return, you will have some explaining to do.

Imagine a CEO saying his salary is only $200,000. The other $1.5 million was for expenses. How do you think that would work out?

 

I would just like to see just ONE of them explain why they think they DESERVED to get the gun.
We know from past posts that the graph master doesn't have the stones to tell us. Maybe one of the 4 stooges can run and tell a gun grabber they know and get back to us with a reason.
I know you are all reading this (proof in the Predicktions thread) so how about it? Don't any of you Kool-Aid drinkers want to know WHY they think they deserved such a nice parting gift?