Mandatory Reductions?

I see this mentioned, but can't find why some are proponents? I'm currently at the 26 after being unwillingly moved to the 24 when I quit shooting for 2 years and never refused my reductions from the 27. I then requested our Delegate to move me to the 25 and eventually the 26 so I could shoot with a Friend I was coaching. Currently I only am able to shoot slightly better from the 16 then the 26, and routinely break 23-25 in practice from the 27. My argument against it is, had it been mandatory, I'd currently be at the 19 yard line and honestly embarrassed to Win something from there. I'd feel like I was stealing from a legitimate 19-20 yard shooter and to further my point I refuse to be less than A-26-A when classified. So how am I so disruptive to the Handicap System by wanting to shoot where I feel I belong??

 

My advice is a personal request to the 14. It might help. Sorry-I had to.

 

I'm just hoping for the same recovery as your Wife! She's doing amazing after battling similar Demons!!!

 

The problem is this ..... "wanting to shoot where I feel I belong" .....

Why have ANY system if people can just "FEEL" whatever they want ????????? If the system is wrong, change how the system works for EVERYONE, NOT just let everyone "FEEL" they are better than their shooting ability shows at the time .....

 

Yes, the wife battled very similar demons but maybe licked it early enough to continue performing. You should also realize Kate S. has the same problem but continues fighting. Brains are weird!

 

I am not sure how the computer generated reductions work, but I know that giving a person with an 88 plus handicap average a 1 yard reduction does not make sense. I refused a reduction recently and got a 1 yard punch at my last shoot. Obviously I was good enough to shoot from thee yardage I was at.

That said, I believe long yardage shooters with less than 82 average should be given mandatory reduction. They are a nuisance posting low scores from the fence and make life miserable for other shooters on the squad. I spoke to one of these people the other day that has a 75 average and he told me that he earned the yardage so he belongs there... that's unadulterated BS.

 

User 1 and Mike, not sure I agree with either of those reasons. First is what does it matter if someone feels they should be farther back? Would you be upset if in a golf match your opponent said I'll play from the Blue Tees, while you're at the Red? Then as to target disruption, namely misses. I was always more distracted by those breaking Big Scores than bad. Example is my first 200, the guy next to me broke a 157. Now if their timing or mannerism's upset the rhythm of the squad, I could see it and happens more frequently amongst the short yardage squads.

 

OK ..... Then what would it matter if you apply the "feel" logic to everything .....

The next time you have to slow down because someone "feels" the need to go slow in the fast lane, remember to consider their "feelings" and not get mad .....

You either have rules that apply to everyone, or there is not a need for ANY rules, just let "feelings" rule .....

 

Dedpair….read the thread where the problem is the over-handicapped delegates that want an easier game. Why? Because they are over-handicapped. They want easier targets so they are not as embarrassed with their 73 average. You want to shoot further back then you earn yardage. The average for delegates handicap is close to 80.
www.americantrapshooter.com/index.php?threads/not-the-ata-its-over-handicapped-delegates-see-list.4638/

Advice...quit trying to make a sporting event more like sunbathing. Doesn't affect me much anymore. The sunbathers and easy targets ruined the game.

 

You're Not ! I admire your good sportsmanship.

 

I did read it, and not once do I recall the more likely reality that most of your Delegates aren't Top Shooters and truly enjoyed the Job? Here in PA Skip is a AAA27AA shooter, and so was Glenn Lash before him, never once did I hear either ever say they wanted easier targets. I honestly believe the more prevalent problem is Target Management, and even though Money's not what it used to be, there's still enough to make it tempting! I've never been a Money Shooter, in the sense that I'd play the ticket. I was there to Win the Event/Class/Yardage, and any Money's were a Bonus. As for the Fix to it all, I don't have the answer and perhaps in our lifetimes there will never will be a Better System.

 

The only rosie thing I see about the no mandatory reductions crowd is that all the "occupy the 27 yarders" out their are older than dirt and won't be around for long. If you can't keep the average how do you feel you belong there? The 27 yard line pin used to mean something and was something to shoot for, now it's meaningless. If you really think you belong there shoot like it and break the scores to stay there. Brad

 

Your are right but....never once did either person push for wider angles. Neither pushed for faster targets. Neither asked for all votes to be documented. There is no record of either of them pushing for a more challenging game.

According to the minutes neither one ever even demanded that their own votes be documented. Neither pushed to investigate 2012PULL. Bring up the names of more delegates. This is a fun game.

 

Brad I agree it definitely needs to be earned and I was there 3 or 4 times before I had myself Coded. It was always something Special to accomplish, even after multiple times. And you're correct that no one there is getting younger, and can see where maintaining what you've earned is really the first Valid Point for a Mandatory rule.

 

Yup, but they did catch a few cheaters.

 

Hell I averaged 91% from the 27 yard line this year and I don’t FEEL over handicapped, I KNOW I’m over over handicapped! Break a 91 at almost any shoot and nobody even knows you are there.

 

In Vegas they love seeing people like you at the poker tables --Same as most option shooters at a shot -- Keep paying your money and they will welcome you on the 27yard line.

 

I've only been shooting for 47 years & must be a little slow. I can't understand why anyone would turn down a reduction and I can't understand why anyone would care if someone did turn down a reduction. I just laugh to myself at the long yardage shooter with their <85% averages. The trap shooting I knew died about 25 years ago.

 

Actually do well in Vegas at the poker tables! Usually 5-10NL or PLO. As for giving my money away, I rarely play more than Lewis Class even when I was AAA27AAA.

 

Butch, my threshold for the constant bitching that has always been around trap shooters has went way down in those 25 years you mention. The shooters that won't take the reduction are more times than not the ones who want the easy targets. They also shoot very expensive guns that they have to justify owning and averaging 79 on hard targets won't fit the narrative. There also the ones wanting to pick there banks.

If they want to be practice shooters so be it, you can shoot whatever yardage you want at practice but the grand and the states shoots are about crowning champions, not feel gooders. ATA was always about competition, not a social justice program. Ability needs to mean something and needs to be rewarded like it was when we were shooting in the good old days. I can just hear what Frank would be saying, can't you? Brad

 

If the handicap system is to work it needs to work both ways. When there are mandatory yardage increases there must be mandatory reductions if the handicap system is going to work. If the reductions are to be optional then the earned yardage also needs to be optional.If someone can't understand this they must have the same mind set as Hillary or maybe even like Mad Maxine.

Dave Berlet

 

What are/will be the criteria for mandatory reductions? We know what they are for gaining yardage. Seems to me gaining yardage is more like a penalty while a reduction is more like a reward.

 

Why can’t you just shoot what’s on your average card? Why is this complicated? I pulled up my card on the ATA site and it gave me a number. If I were to shoot handicap, that’s where I would shoot from. Why is this difficult to grasp?

 

When I first started shooting trap in the mid 70's.. My goal was to reach the 27 yard line my first year and break a 100 straight in 16's. I had 7 months to do thhis before the target year ends. I started on the 22 and shot my way back to the 25 and then got a mandatory reduction back to the 24.
Went to the Grand in Vandalia on the 24 came back on the 26. Went to National Capitol in MD the last weekend of the target year. Shot with Frank Little and broke a 97 from the 26 on Sat which sent me to the 27. Then shooting with Frank again on Sun, broke a 96 my first day on the 27 winning both days. Got nominated '' Rookie of The Year''.
So it payed for me to get reduced. About the 16's...yes I broke several 100's in those 7 months including a 199x200 to win MD's class A. And a long run of close to 300. Did break a 100x100 from the 27 but a non registered shoot at the Winchester or might have been the Beretta gun club in Greenbelt MD. Then got out of trapshooting altogether from spine problems for over 30 years. So glad I shot those Golden years.

 

Just a foot note on that 199x200. On the day of the 200 singles, Lucky Natingale who was doing the classification said he was going put me in AA class but I showed him my average card and he he said ok...A class. A friend of mine was selling his release TM1 Perazzi. At this point I never shot a Perazzi. Asked him if i could shoot it in the 200 event. He said yes and I ran the first 175 then missed one for the 199x200. Yes I did buy that gun. Thank you my friend the late Henry Sappington.

 

Better watch it "Dave", you're starting to sound like a Democrat saying we need more regulations. Trapshooting is what it is. Making some old fart take a reduction will not save it. I've only been shooting since 1972 and can't remember ever having mandatory reductions. Did we every have them?

 

Is that like having an event like 27 yd. handicap for all? It'll be just so exciting watching 80 yo's flail away at long yardage handicap targets who can barely break 90's in Singles. We'll probably need to add at least 40 targets to their scores to give 'em a chance to beat Harlan.

 

I am now more convinced than ever that the ATA or someone with access to the data needs to start measuring the performance of the current handicapping system and quantify how effective this system is in equalizing the competition. Having metrics will go a long ways in removing the perceptions and the emotions that are the driving the various theories including mine. Without performance metrics we don't really know how effective or ineffective the the current handicapping system is in equalizing the competition.

History Buff's comments below opened my eyes and I hope some others.
"Perhaps some will be shocked to learn that in the 64 years since the inception of the 27-yard mark I count only nine (9) 27-yard shooters winning the Grand American Handicap, the overwhelming number of winners being short-yardage shooters. So do the back-fencer's really dominate the sport? Do they have an unfair advantage? Perhaps it is the best shooters who have been penalized by the handicapping system and maximum distance mark. Surely, if they unfairly dominate the sport there should be more 27-yard champs don't you think?"

Only 9 shooters have won the Grand American Handicap event from the 27 yard line during the last 64 years. This means that 86 percent of the Grand American winners shot from less than 27 yards. So, how effective is the current system is working? Answer is we don't know because no one is measuring the actual performance.

 

I just pulled the 1955 average book and looked at the high handicap average, 91.92%. In 1955 the ATA thought it needed two more yards because someone averaged 91.92%. He was the only shooter above 90%.

note: I did see a higher average on fewer targets, but I was looking for Arnold Reigger's average.

 

George Newmaster was high in singles (more than 5000 targets) with a 98.30%. Reigger had about 98.60% on more than 4000 less than 5000 targets.

 

In 1956 Dan Orlich was high with 91.04%

Now I gotta go look for the 1954 book to see why they made the 27 yard line. My comments about 1955 are wrong.

 

1954 FROM 25 YARDS more than 5000 targets
AR 93.53%
DO 90.89
JULIUS PETTY 94.06 1500 targets
Al Ljutic 93.63 1900 targets

 

Maybe we should also look how many of those short yardage winners were from KY?

 

Yes, there are many ways this data could be sorted. For starters, I would like to see the distribution of the winners of handicap events broken down into 4 categories - one category for the Grand American, one category for all satellite grands, another category for all state shoots and a 4th category for the remainder.

 

Seems like it was Dan Orlich who told Britt Robinson to tear up his average card. And I think he pretty much did as the point of the story went. What about the time two doctors bought Britt Robinson in the Calcutta in Great Falls, Montana for a few thousand dollars and Britt went out somewhere that night and got good and drunk and broke a 62 or some darn thing like that in the next days handicap. The doctors it is said, wanted their money back. According to some reasoning I see here above, they should have got it back and Britt should have been immediately moved to the 19 yard line.

 

Or maybe the reductions are a scam perpetrated by the ATA and the dominate 27 yrd. shooters to keep people in the game and donating their hard earned money to the purse and options which they basically have no chance of winning.

 

If a shooters gets to 27 or whatever yardage and wants to turn down a reduction I would be fine with allowing refusing it once. After that one time refusal reductions should be mandatory.

 

I have never been concerned with where other people stand as long as it is where they are supposed to be ... Not my money so it don't cost me anything ... I was at the 26.5 yard line and a guy stopped the squad to tell me I was not standing in a legal spot because my Heel was on or just in front of the 27 yard marker (fraction of an inch ) , I told him to go shoot and mind his own business ... You would of thought I stole his kid and his wife the way he was acting, called for a Judge to come and tell me how wrong I was ... The Judge said technically I was not wrong because I was not standing on the 27 yard line ... I was just about to move forward a 1/4 of an inch to make him happy until he told me he was going to have me DQ'ed, that changed my mind ... He asked a former President who happen to be standing there and he wisely said he was not going to get involved ... This guy let it up set him so bad he shot like shit and kept running his mouth even after the shooting was done ... I told him if he has something to say to me, say it to my face or at least so I can hear it, he decided not to after all that ... Stand where you want, the ATA opened that up so it should not be any ones concern any more ... Talk about making a big deal out of nothing, Jesus Christ find something that matters if you are going to piss and moan about something ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

We have a handicap system in place for a reason. I would rather shoot from the yardage I am assigned based on the scores that I have shot. If I wanted to shoot at a longer yardage then I need to practice more.

 

Only 9 shooters have won the Grand American Handicap event from the 27 yard line since it's inception in 1955 to 2018. This means that 86 percent of the Grand American winners shot from less than 27 yards. Wouldn't that suggest that at least at the Grand American Handicap, the handicapping system is working pretty good to level the playing field ?

 

just when you think you've heard every possible reason for the decline in ATA shooting, USER1 comes up with another, and possibly the dumbest, reason yet.

 

USER1, I used to be one of those guys with a beer in my pouch. Yeah, I've been around this sport a while too. Never was much for smoking though.

However, nothing of what you wrote above has anything to do with mandatory reductions or lack thereof.

 

The shooters he's referring to have mostly died off in the last 20 years.

 

Yep;that's when men were men and the sheep stayed a little nervous.;

 

I'll betcha some of 'em charged a bunker in WWII and Korea too. Wonder why I miss 'em?

 

Why should anyone care if an old guy that made the 27 thirty years before wants to continue on the 27? It's his money. If he or she wants to give it away, so what, it's their money? If you can't shoot because some one is missing next to you, or you don't like their speed, or a pet bird craps on your head, maybe you should get on another squad, or start paying for the Geezer's birds. I don't believe in squad rhythm. As a matter of fact, I'll slow down my approach just to slow a squad down. I hate machinegun squads. And I don't care if anyone like it or not. It's my money.

 

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes blaming their failure to win another trinket trophy on some old fart. Probably none of 'em ever played a dime in options either. Who cares.

 

BAMA....I cant believe it took this long for someone to ask that question.

Answer: It is because the "old guy" is not just an "old guy". Check the op title. The old geezers on the 27 are delegates that cant shoot from the 27. And they vote that way. They vote for "old geezer birds" (your name for them). You know the fuddy duddy ATA targets that are a joke.

How could an "old geezer" delegate (your word) ,justify being a delegate with a 29 average from the 27? Imagine wanting to shoot with the other old geezers on the 27 and 4 of them are in the 80's and you with a 29. Now wouldn't that be embarrassing?

Any more explanations will require a graph.

 

One more time for those with comprehension problems ......

What was the Weekend Warrior, the blue-collar person with a day job and no RV, that would show up on shoot day and play the game for money on their yardage of current ability, now stays home because they shoot on the last squads on bank BFE, with nothing to do while waiting, while the crusty old never-was bastards fill up desired squads and banks using pre-squad while camping, to shoot "targets only" from a yardage they suck at .....

How do you think it would work if a high-end restaurant would let these crusty old bastards just drink coffee with free refills, at prime time in their prime seating ????????????????

Hell ..... I am going to bitch at NASCAR for not letting me drive around the track at 55mph on race day ...... What harm would that be to the serious NASCAR competitor that has to wait until I finish to compete ??????

There were many more money day shooters than the current occupy the 27 targets only fools ..... that is simple math that needs no graph or chart ......

 

USER1, now your blaming pre squad for the decline in ATA shooting. Yesterday it was lack of mandatory reductions. why don't the blue collar, day job, no RV guys just use presquad like everyone else? I'm not blue collar, but I fit the rest of the description. Pre squad is easy. Sure it costs a couple bucks, but these guys are the big money shooters, what's a couple extra dollars to get the preferred squads and banks.

Next you'll probably say that pre squad is rigged for the big dogs. Some clubs might do that, but that's shoot management not the ATA.

 

iowa guy ..... tell everyone why "kids" compete on their own days ......

Some no doubt compete in other events ..... but in large groups they are given their own days ..... why ??????????

 

The "occupy the 27 yd" shooters will be dead or quit shooting in a few years. They will be replaced by whom?

 

They will be dead.? Somebody cares?

 

user1, are you referring to the AIM championship? I guess they just wanted to have shoot just for the kids. There may be a more specific reason than that but I don't know what it is. Maybe it's numbers, but I think for the most part the AIM championships could be blended in with the regular events and not cause too much heart burn for anyone.

If you're referring to the SCTP championships it's because they have really nothing to do with the ATA, other than the 16 yd targets being registered.

 

Might I suggest most adults don't want to shoot with kids or loose to them?

 

just my own opinion but as a very competitive person, I would never turn down a reduction, ever. The entire goal for me is to win by the rules, if the rules allow shorter yardage for me, woohooo !! And I love to shoot with kids.

 

"Might I suggest most adults don't want to shoot with kids" ..... Why ??????????

What possible difference could there be between a occupy the 27, slow shooting, miss half the targets adult, and a "kid" possibly doing the same ?????????

To the thread OP and topic, when you have doubts about your actions, trying to have people justify it in cyber-land is not going to get the mileage you hoped for .....

 

Let me clarify. I don't want to shoot or lose to a kid. It's my money and Ill shoot with who I want.

 

You don't wanna shoot with kids. Now aint that special. The way the ATA is going you might be shooting by yourself.

 

The kids where I shoot are way better behaved than a lot of the adults.

 

I spent 35 years on the 27 yd. line. Earned on 96+ scores. I deserved it then. Due to advancing age and worsening eye sight I REQUESTED and received numerous reduction down to the 21 yard line. I am once again competitive when lighting and non windy days are in my favor. Has taken me a long time to adjust to the fact that i was no longer competitive at 27 yards and was actually an embarrasment there. i was concerned about winning from the lower yardages but this has not been a problem as there are a lot of younger shooters that start down there and are winning their way back sometimes through me. I just shoot and have fun and am no longer obsessed with big scores and am happy with the occasional win i earn. Just shoot and have fun and accept things the way they are now.

 

See post #64. I fit your description. Earned 27 in about 1976.

 

Am afraid if this is true you will create a whole bunch of "fair weather" shooters who will refuse to shoot in the cold or wind.

 

Some people don't care to be around kids. I'm one of them. And I can shoot by myself, no problem.