The 44 degree angle 50-52 yard targets

If I die before those targets specifications are restored to the ATA rule book or book of suggestions. I want it known that I stood up to any and all registered trapshooters, for targets I would like to shoot, and I liked to shoot in my early trapshooting career, and those early Grand Slam Shooters, who teethed on shooting those 44 degree 50+ yard targets, and earned the title of GRAND SLAM using those inferior shells, and hand pulled targets, and using guns w/o all of todays Trapgun innovations.

I stand up and applaud you, the early Grand Slam Shooters, who shot those 44 degree, 50+
yard targets, you were the best of the best, there are no equals to you, Thank you Dan Orlich,
George Snellenberger, Larry Gravestock, Frank Little, Doug Bedwell, Ken Jones, Bueford Bailey, Britt Robinson, Dan Bonillas, Lawerence Russo, Ray Stafford, Kay Ohye, Jerry (John) Hauser, Don Ewing, Gene Sears,Steve Carmichael, Brad Dysinger, Roger Smith, Eddie Schneider, Terry Bilbey, Don Slavich, Vern Brown, Leo Harrison, William E. Johnson, Reggie Jachimowski, Phil Ross, 9/18/79 there are more in the list, this just gives you an idea who the best of the best were. The early Grand Slam Shooters In my opinion were the GOLD GRAND SLAM shooters.

Congratulations from the real Trapshooters of today Who Really Cared and who know what you accomplished. I hope to be the Leader That Gets Those Target Settings you shot restored
I have stood up and am standing up yet, in all the Bashing given to me, I have taken it from one of the former Worst ATA President ever, that changed the ATA Rule book, to a Rule Book Of Suggestions.
Gary Bryant, Dr.longshot, Life Member

 

Gary,
You don't even have support on this board.

1. There are shooters with a lot of experience and targets who are saying pouring concrete is the only way to fix the problem. The 3 hole 44 degree targets will only punish the average shooter.

2. I don't think you are reaching the decision makers either. You need to get yourself elected. If the Ohio delegate is as bad as you have said it should be a cake walk.

3. But if it makes you happy to just type the same thing over and over again and you feel like you are really trying to affect change then have at it.

But remember what the definition of insanity is.

Have a good afternoon

 

The intelligent factor should be your first consideration, and respect of the original Grand Slam Shooters

 

Who says I don't have support on this board, only the NW followers do not like it.

 

Wish Bone: If you can't break real targets, keep shooting the fluffy ones. Man up and ask for the return of the original target settings our real men forefathers shot., I want them back and so do a lot of others.
Dr.longshot

 

Gary my forefathers shot actual pigeons.

I respect all the grand slam shooters. It is in very poor taste to belittle or disrespect an others accomplishments.

You can make personal attacks if you must but I have shot a lot of 3 hole targets and continue to do so. There is after all life outside the ATA.

Typing the same thing over and over on the web will change nothing.

Carry on.

 

I apologize to the Moderator for this post as it does not exactly address Dr. Longshot's original topic, but I need to interject some information regarding the Ohio ATA Delegate since he has been mentioned on this and other threads. The Ohio Delegate is Clyde Findley, not Dennis Filo. Clyde has been our delegate for a few years now, and he served 6 years on the OSTA BOD (including 1 year as President) prior to becoming our ATA Delegate. In my opinion, Ohio could not have a better man than Clyde Findley serving as our ATA Delegate. Clyde has NEVER ONCE "voted as he was told" on ATA matters. In fact, if an ATA EC member tried to tell Clyde how to vote I can assure you that Clyde's response to that would be R rated and not fit to print here. Clyde takes the position of ATA Delegate very seriously and on ATA matters he votes the way he feels is best for the sport of trapshooting and the shooters. Clyde and I do not always agree on trapshooting issues, but I have a great deal of respect for Clyde and the way he represents Ohio as our ATA Delegate.

 

Don
That is good to hear. The delegates I have met have all been good people.
Most seem to have the best interests of the ATA in mind although they don't necessarily agree on what that is.

 

so gary, your saying that anybody young or old that has shot only the last 10 to 20 years will never be as good as the shooters in the past. you need to go to some of the bigger shoots and watch some of those sub juniors and juniors shoot,might not be the targets of yesteryear,but some of them are the best in the country right now or close to it

 

Rest assured my dear friend that your noble and lengthy battle will not go unrecognized. In fact, if your passing indeed precedes the restoration of our sacred rules, when those rules finally are reinstated I vow to honor you by gently pouring a jar of your beloved southern Ohio moonshine over your grave.

To avoid wastefulness however, I may take the liberty of running it through my kidneys first.

-Gary

 

Come on, Moderators -- don't delete that! You KNOW it was funny!!!
I LOVE DLS!

 

GW22

LOL

 

GW22 - Credit where credit is deserved.

While I guess I side with DLS in that I would like to see harder targets, that response was hysterical.

Well played.

 

Thanks, glad to provide you a laugh.

For the record, I'd be OK w/ harder targets too. But in the meantime I intend to enjoy life and have lots of fun breaking the not-so-hard ones.

-Gary

 

Sounds like a plan to me. Shoot well.

 

Sometimes I assist my clubs corporate shoots to introduce newbie's to our game of trap. Normally get there early and get my trap and everything all set up so they can enjoy the experience. Trap set to throw straights from post 3, shells, glasses and ear plugs. Keep in mind, some of these people have never even fired any kind of firearm in their entire life let alone a shotgun and on moving targets!!

I had about an hour before my group was to show up when 5 NM shooters practically insisted they had time to shoot a round of singles practice on my trap! I didn't say a word and punched their card for a round each.

Nary a shooter broke a 25!! Gathered around discussing their fate, it finally dawned on one lady shooter, we just shot all straights from post "3"!! "LOL, no wonder I didn't notice any tough target angles"! Easy targets for sure but no perfect score, on singles?

SO, it's not how tough they are to break, they're just so easy to miss! True story!

HAP

 

If your going down that silly trail of hours again, you better figure out who broke theirs on traps with interrupters and they for sure shoot 50yd/44degree targets too.

 

I trust those shooters honesty, I feel they had integrity, if they could read the trap, it was their secret. But those target distances, and angles were all the same for all the shooters then. They did it and I as an ATA Life Member, Honor them, they were the best of the best, I shot with some of them over the years, You should have seen Buford Bailey shoot at Camp Troy evening and day shoots, He shot a 32"inch Bbl Model 12. At least on those night shoots. Frank Little to me was like a machine, he shot a full choke gun on singles, he tried an open choke once, he said never again, went and got his other Bbl w/full choke.

Deep Back Woods are you doubting what they shot, especially that early in Trapshooting, they all shot 44 degree angles and 50 yard targets, Ask George Snellenberger, and Dan Ohrlic that question.. I am sure Geoge Snellenberger would like to hear from you., A Grand Slam in those days was an achievement.
These were the best of the best, You ought to have seen Britt Robinson shooting, fastest shooter I have ever seen.

I can say I watched Brad Dysinger and Leo Harrison shoot in those early 70s, at the Missouri Handicap
Trapshoot.

No fancy guns, just their design, mostly shot weighted stocks, to control recoil.

The targets we shoot today should have the same degree of difficulty they shot, I want to shoot them again like they used to be, and every dedicated Trapshooter should want to do the same.
Dr.longshot

 

I would love to see a return of the 44 degree-50 yard target, but I often wonder at this point in time of it is really in the best interest of trapshooting. There are so few of us still around who regularly shot those targets that I don't know if the majority of today's shooters would agree with me. I began registering in 1966 as a sub jr. and have gone from the 18 to the 27, but didn't hit every yardage in between. I have 4 99's from the 27, but no 100 to complete my slam. All of those were on today's easier targets (since 1989). I don't believe I would turn down the honor should it happen.
I was involved in shoot management at 2 clubs in the mid 90's when there was a movement from the ATA to go back to tougher targets. I can give you two observations that I made at that time: tougher targets will not change who wins, it will only change the bulk of shooters' scores--less class C & D shooters (shorter yardage shooters) show up due to frustrations that they are not improving and may not have a chance to. Now the short yardage factor has changed with the reductions given, but I do believe my observations have merit.
I don't think any change to target setting is going to solve the handicap situation. The big dogs are just that good and it will lower the other shooters' scores too. 30 yards may work, but so many clubs are just barely surviving now I'd hate to see them saddled with the expense of pouring concrete. Besides a separate handicap class for 27 yarders, one ounce loads, slower velocities, going to shot size #8 or smaller, I can't think of many alternatives although there are plenty of bright people out there that may find an answer. I also believe with today's economic realities harder targets will not bring entries back to the levels of our sport's heyday in the 70's-80's. I believe there are other factors that are determining where leisure dollars are spent.
Also, if you read the other board, there was a complaint about harder to break targets at the Dixie Grand. A shooter was convinced that White Flyer had provided a target that was harder to break. He couldn't accept that the wind influenced his scores or rather his inability to deal with the wind, so something else was wrong. I don't imagine this fellow would embrace harder targets and I think there are many who share his view.

 

TF1
Good Post

Thanks

 

Very good post TF1.

It's alway been my belief that the only reason people want to change the targets back is to water down the competition. As you say, it only makes for frustrated less skilled shooters. A very good way to further reduce the numbers in the trapshooting community.

 

Who was a better running back? Jim Brown or Walter Payton? With all the changes in the years between the two, you really can't say can you? Why do the old guard think trapshooting is any different?

 

I don't think any of those on the 'Grand Slam list' look down on anyone else on the list. All the living people on the list know what it takes to get there, regardless of target presentation.

 

Barry Sanders is still the best I ever saw.

 

duffjs06: The NFL did not make the ball field shorter, or narrower, or change the size of the football.
Top shooters will always be top shooters, the short yardage shooters have a definite advantage, they are closer to the targets, by 7-9 yards, the angles or distance will not hardly affect them,

There will be fewer ties, making money splits higher, Why would TRAPSHOOTING be any different, making everything easier using vastly changed equipment in gun designs, shells Etc.

Let's bring the sport back to what it used to be for 3 years, starting this target year.

Then look at the results.
Dr.longshot

 

Unlike you, I respect the ability and achievement of everyone on the "Grand Slam" list. I in fact am one of them.

I know George and most of the ones you name. Many were regular squadmates at different times through the years. So I didn't just watch, I was there with them and not one of them then or any of those that followed do I not have great admiration for there talent. Period.

But your continued rants about only a select group of many being recognized is very disrespectful!

 

The change in the NFL came from how the game is played, how it is officiated. Listen to the stories from the guys in the trenches in the 60s, the lineman in another era can't get away with it. Cameras every angle, instant replay, public opinion, etc.

I'm not saying one way is right and another wrong. What I am saying, thing always change. Either adapt or be left behind. If you have a plan to put the targets back to where the were, I'll shoot at them too, it doesn't matter to me.

 

I believe if a poll was taken from the first Grand Slam shooters will say they never shot the targets we did, if they did, I believe they would say there would not be a huge growth of them on the harder angle targets.
I wish there was a way we could conduct a fair and absolutely accurate POLL on just those early Grand Slam Shooters.

I tend to look at those early Grand Slam Shooters like Clint Eastwood projected American Sniper. Their Army Buddies, Their wives and families. A tribute to those outstanding early shooters, If they had shot those 37degree angle Targets, there would have been an abundance of Grand Slams in the early years.

We went from 26 Slams from 1965 to 1979, 14 years genuine 44 degree angle targets I believe. To Approx 540 grand slams in 35 years by my calculations. Just look at it this way, we now have approx. 540 Grand Slams, Why only one specific reason EASIER TARGETS, 37 degree 46-48 yd targets.

This is the only sport I know of that made the GAME EASY, I am ashamed of the way the ATA has lead this Sport of Trapshooting down the course of destruction, Starting with NW's directions and BOD, and EC actions.

The kids we shoot sporting clays with, love the harder target presentations, They keep coming back and are now shooting buddy shoots. They absolutely love the harder targets, they are not quitters, they come back week after week, and are bringing friends with them.
Gary Bryant, Dr.longshot

 

Maybe if we had Instant replay, there would have been a different GAH Winner, Last August.

Going easy was going the wrong way, and it is really showing up now.
Dr.longshot

 

Maybe they went as far as the law would allow them to go.

There are government rules and regulations that an organization has to follow when they claim the Internal Revenue Code 501 (c) (3) exemption. Which by the way the ATA does claim.

Then again maybe a room full of lawyers told them this is all you can do.

 

Deepbackwoods.....some of the grand slams were shot at less than 2 hole targets. I could really care less how you came by yours. But then again you want the easy targets. There are a lot of good shooters that want easy targets. The greatest shooters in the game whined when we went to 27 yards. Not only did they whine they whined publicly.

So what's new?

 

Not sure what you thought warranted this response other than you are one of the site owners and maybe that's enough.

No doubt more than one record has been shot/broken on less than legal targets. Then and still. Its the nature of a lot of games. So how do you know unless you were there?

You weren't shooting back then so how do you know they whined? Furthermore, why wouldn't they? Your point in stating such? Do you think the top dogs are whining now? Which ones?

 

Deepbackwoods, a poster with the username "historybuff" seemed to enjoy posting the whines of the best when the yardage was changed. I am not going to do the research for you and the admin does not allow folks to give the users real names out. I trust you can do that on your own. The articles are very interesting.

As far as your statement why wouldn't they? That is my point. Those on the 27 want to stay on the 27. Those making money want to keep making money. None of those answers are necessarily in the best interest of trapshooting. That is my point.

Lowering the rim hasn't helped anyone get a "Grand" slam. At least not grand as it once was.

 

When all the shooters of the past were reading the traps before the interrupters, shouldn't all their records be erased? After all, when reading a trap, aren't you getting the easiest of all targets--the ones you know where they will be. All records should be antique level (pre interrupter era), and modern (post interrupter era).

So all the complaining about how things were, isn't exactly one sided anymore, is it?

 

All the shooters were not reading the traps (pre-interrupter era), only a few attempted to do so, just like today.

Long before the so-called interuppter, traps were designed to throw unknown angles. Before the automatic traps it was by the trapboy changing the angles. Traps identified as "automatic traps" have been used at the Grand American since about 1906. These traps were designed to automatically change the angle upon the release of the target. Some traps did this pretty well, some did not.

Some of the automatic traps used at the Grand American Handicap tournaments were:
1. Dickey Bird
2. Western-McCrea
3. Western Auto Angling
4. Black Diamond Auto Angling
5. Western Magic-Angle
6. Western Miracle Trap
7. Western Wonder Trap
8 Remington-Leggett

As an example, Remington-Leggett Auto Angling traps used for the 1943 Grand American were equipped with a pivoted ratchet disk with 72 teeth which threw 72 different angles. Their advertisement said "SHOOTER CANNOT GUESS ANGLES."

The trap-reading problem discussed today really came with the introduction of the Western White Flyer V1524 trap which was pretty easy for some, to time their shots, avoiding the hard angles. That's when the Rhodeside Interrupter was introduced. But it certainly was not the first trap interrupter. In 1947 one of our old-time great shooters Rush Razee, of Denver, Colorado, patented his auto-angling mechanism that could be adapted for assembly on target traps not provided with a means for automatically throwing targets at unpredictable angles. He assigned his patent to the Remington Arms Co.

Now, regarding all the talk about the 44 degree angle. Please remember that originally, the target game provided for a 45 degree normal regulation angle on each side of the center stake. And targets thrown wider were still legal targets until they exceeded 65 degrees. Later, because clubs continued to throw narrower target, the rules were change reducing the normal extreme angles to 22 degrees left and right of the center stake, thus the so-called 44 degree angle.

The most important thing to remember is that these angles (22 degrees) were the minimum extreme angle a trap was permitted to throw targets. The rules for the 22 degree angles permitted targets to be thrown another 25 degrees wider and still be a legal target, that if turned down was by the rules to be called "lost."

Some might be interested to know that at one time our rules called for double targets to be set for 35 degrees and they were still considered legal within 65 degrees on each side of the 50yd. center stake. Today's rules call for 17 degree doubles and trap mechanics are called if the field is off or they are a little wide.

Grand Slams are a great achievement for sure. Also for sure, is that some were achieved under harder conditions than others.

Trap shooting was made to be a test of skill and difficult. Designed to provide the challenges one might have when hunting in the field. Originally it was with gun below the elbow. Forget to load a shell . . . lost target. Two of the many rule changes that have made the game less difficult.

Just some things to think about.

Kenny Ray

 

KRay

I appreciate all that you wrote, however if you go to the thread about reading traps, there you have it.

Try telling all the baseball players in the so called "steroid era", they will let them in the HOF, not going to happen no matter what records they hold.

 

longshot -

According to YOU what I have done in my shooting career doesn't mean much.

I bought my first gun, a rifle at the age of 40 in 1977. After a few trips to the rifle range, I noticed some people shooting clay targets and stopped and watched. As many others before me did, I got hooked by the game of trapshooting. I learned to shoot with no lessons, but I had a keen eye for what worked, by watching the best shooters. I applied myself to the game of trapshooting and did the usual, trading guns, ect. for a while.

As my skill improved so did my understanding of stock design, barrel work, triggers, and POI. I acquired a used Winchester Super X in 1982. I had already used release triggers and the Super-X had an abused Hoblit release trigger in it when I got it. I finally found out that Emerson had built it and sent it to him for repair, then I had a custom stock built for it by Anton (unfinished), then sent the gun to Tom Seitz for barrel work and POI adjustment. Everything was finished and ready to go by 1984.

All I ever remember shooting was 3 hole targets, I had a hard time on post 1 with the target sometimes being a slight right angle there, so I had to hold for a straightaway on posts 1 and 2 or I had a tendency to shoot just to the left of the right angle/straightaway if I didn't. I can remember helping to set targets at Kingsburg, CA for our state shoot and we always set the targets to hit the 50 yard stake.

By 1985 it all came together for me, I was using that shotgun for all events, including doubles. I used Federal paper H-7 1/2's for handicap, and reloads of 19 grains of Red Dot , a 12C1 Federal wad, and the Federal paper hull with Federal primer and 1 1/8 oz of 8's for singles and both shots in doubles. That year I shot California, Nevada, and Arizona. I forget the exact date but around August or September I had a career day and completed my Grand Slam in front of a large crowd , as I was also breaking the second 300 day ever recorded, that's 100 singles, 100 from the 27, and 100 doubles. I am number 50 on the Grand Slam list.

I have also completed another one a few years ago when I turned 70, but 85 was my best year ever in trapshooting. The ATA sent me a patch that reads "All-Around average award" for my third place finish that year, I'm very proud of these feats as I worked very hard at this game to achieve these accomplishments . And when I see your constant criticism of the men/women that were able to achieve their Grand Slams if they were done after the first 40 or so men. If these targets are so dam easy now go try and do it yourself, you are younger than me, I'm 78, so until you have the talent to break a Grand Slam yourself, stop your constant whining.

Tom Strunk
Payson, Arizona

 

Tom nobody is whining, you just did not do it on the more difficult Targets, Your Fore Trapshooters did. 1985 were 2 hole targets thanks to NW, what you did was great, but not as great as Dan Ohrlic, or George Snellenberger, you have to admit that, I have a 100 on those hard 3 hole targets, shot in 1970, but from 24.5 yards, plus a 99 and several 98s from the 27 also. Was on 27 over 25 total years, am 73 now, and have severe ankle problem which may require amputation. Re -read the above and learn something.
Dr.longshot

 

I also shot at some of the same targets that Tom Strunk did during that time frame and his voice here is spot on and truthful to a "T"!

Why is it so hard to understand that SOME clubs set easy targets at 2 hole, (17 degree angle targets) and MANY others adhered to the standard setting!! Some of the clubs bending the rule did actually set the standard settings in addition at times!!

Don't paint everyone with such a ridiculous claim Gary, it's not true and unfair to the game of registered trap shooting. Untruths can cause about as much harm as the cheating itself can!

If one were to suggest a wild target game with wide angles and LONG targets, my money goes on Tom Strunk as a real trap shooter even at his age today!! I saw and felt his results on tough targets!!

Gene Hapney

 

Tom Strunk: What is your thoughts for the drastic increase of the Grand Slams fom 40 to over 500+ more if it were not for just the distance and angle reductions. You are the 2nd responder of a Grand Slam done on the easier targets. How do you determine they were actually set at 44 degree angle, what club was it shot at? Brad shot out West he can tell us.
Dr.longshot

 

#1 What kind of rifle did you start with

#2 That, young man, is how you put an ignorant monger in his place. That is, perhaps, the best slap down in the history of the written word. You Sir, deserve accolades of a champion, as you have EARNED.

 

Better information, better equipment.

You would do well to talk to Jack, the golfer, and ask him why.

What number on the Grand Slam are you, Gary?

 

Gene Hapney: I disagree with your anology, what year did you move to Arizona? Is there positive truth it was done on 44 Degree Angle Targets, I believe you lived in Ohio in 1985 Gene. The only change that was made for easier targets was the 37 degree angles, that accounted for the vast Grand Slam accomplishments. Over 500 Add'l Grand slams in 32 years.

 

duffkjs06: You are not Tom Strunk, and this is not Golf, We don't shoot balls, You just need Balls to shoot good, sorry ladies.

 

Did I ever say or advertise I had a GRAND SLAM? Trying to start a false rumor are you Duffer?

 

Go do that on the other Rumor Site Duffer.

 

Sir,

Stop back peddlin'

At my home club, no one else wants to go there, because of the so called two hole angle. I shoot there, to get better.

Wow, you get put in your place, then attack me?

Not only are your shooting scores down, so is your integrity.

Your scores are posted forever, your down right meanness and arrogance is as well.

 

You disparage the Grand Slam guys, but you're not on the list?

With all your bitchin', we all thought you did it ten times.

 

I disagree with you totally, the first let's say 40, were the best of the best, on the harder angles whether they could read the traps or not, the angles were harder, isn't that true! are not 17 degree angles easier than a 44 degree angle? True or not? TRUE. They did it with inferior shells too. That is also TRUE!!!
This was not a game of PERFECTION, NEVER WAS, and NEVER SHOULD BE. But they the ATA, BOD and EC are attempting to make it that way. My intentions are to get this SPORT OF TRAPSHOOTING back to the way it was originally intended to be.
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

You live in a fantasy world. In the days of "reading the trap", those guys had an advantage. Just like the guys playing MLB in the steroid era.

 

You are either for getting this sport back the way it was dessigned and intended, or you are not,

 

Duffer were you a trapshooter in the 1970s, and shot those 44 degree angle targets?

 

I was the trap boy.

I watched how the trap worked, then when they let me pull, I watched how they came out of the house. Then I learned why, then I started to shoot.

That's a lot of knowledge, for a 18 y/o

 

Britt Robinson: Said Wind is my friend I believe, if my memory is correct.

 

It is not Shooting Related, I would say Dan Ohrlic, George Snellenberger, and Leo Harrison

 

You, again missed the point.

We, the younger shooters, thank you for paying your $50 life memberships.

It's time to stop your bitching, and let the young folks do, as they seem fit.

I will let you know how it works out.

 

Duff
I am not sure who your "we" is. I am curious why you fear the harder targets. I am not as old as doc so include me in your "we" stuff. I assume the more challenging targets are a threat to you. You are not alone. lol

As far as making the targets easier.....we already have seen how that worked out. Maybe you and your pals should step aside while we reset the targets.

 

Set the targets, wherever you like, I (we) will still shoot at them.

 

Wow, that was an epic smackdown by Mr. Strunk! I commend him for speaking up but it's a shame that a great shooter like him has to come on here and defend his accomplishments to someone whose avg over his last 2000 handicap targets is 85.5%.

-Gary

 

Tom Strunk is a class act and a hell of a trap shooter.

To disrespect Tom is disgraceful.

The behavior of a classless individual.

 

When I was a puller, back then you had to push the button and score, the shooters always bitched about the last puller, and I'm sure they bitched when they left mine.

 

GW- - -
This would not be a great place to compare your accomplishments to anyone on this board. Or you could post the number of years you were a AA shooter and maybe tell us about your honorary 27 yard accomplishments.

Attacking either person isn't my game....but then again the harder targets are a different game. You don't have to be a AAA shooter to know that.

Too often when cornered with facts the trapshooters here and about start with the crap what is your average? What is your ata number? I suggest you not play that game.

 

Why we are there, bring the Grand back to NY where is was. I don't care what you sissy shooters in Ohio say, is that a real state?, bring the Grand back to NY

 

You can disagree all you want Gary but I typed nothing but truth in my post above.

Yes, I was in Ohio in 1985 but merely on vacation from my job in Ca. How do I know the difference between a 34 degree angle and one of 44? Very easy for me and always was because I've always looked for a true straight away regardless of post I'm on! That began with the 44 degree plus angles and I still do that same thing today!! Only difference today is I only look for those true straights from posts 2-3 and 4 with our current 34 degree target sets.

BTW, I moved from CA to my home in Ohio in 1995 and moved here to Arizona in the spring of 07.

Neil Winston certainly can't be to blame for everything Gary! He was merely a part of a number of shooters wanting an easier set angle. Softer too for the average shooter to score better! Was he right? I don't think so, (my opinion only) and feel it wasn't best for the longevity and growth of what our sport of trap shooting's has always been perceived to be.

Gary, the more you assume you know, facts be damned, the more idiot like others think of you. Get all your proof in line, like ducks in a row, before typing anymore. You're giving the good people of Ohio a bad rap when all of your complaints aren't completely true! We will discuss this at Charlie's one of these days!

HAP

 

There ya go. FINALLY, the true feeling gets posted. Jeeeeez, why did it take you so long to post them. You should have started your first post with that stuff.

BTW, I don't live in OH.

Flyersarebest

 

Tom,
You have reached goals higher than what more than 99% of all trapshooters will ever reach. The rest of us look on in wonder and amazement at the accomplishments of you and others. I would say you are in pretty scarce company and for someone to belittle those achievements shows lack of intelligence. I also know that you only listed a fraction of your awards, like the State Single's Championship a short time ago. My hats off to you.

 

You sure act like you are.

For all the Ohioooo shooters, try living in NY, where the Grand started, then shutty town, il.

 

Gary won the first, then what?

 

My thoughts are that the Pat traps and the voice actuators are a big part of the improvement we see, in my time it was all hand set and pulling by a person. Also there are coaches, books, DVD's ect. shortening the learning curve. And of course we have better ammunition, especially the shot, much harder now. And of course the stock makers, they have made a huge difference for the shooting public. I also want to say that my good friend for over 30 years, Phil Simms and his ProSoft stock helps everyone shoot better without the discomfort of recoil.

In my old age I have become a student of the game. I have bought every book, DVD that I could to just see what is out there for information for the shooter searching for answers.
In my humble opinion Leo Harrison III's two DVD's are the best I have ever seen. Any shooter that wants to improve should invest in his two DVD's. I have to complement my friends from Rapid City, SD, the Bartholow's. They are doing so much to promote trapshooting by giving free clinic's to our young people. They are our future.

Tom Strunk

 

Well I disagree with you and your assessment of what qualified a legitimate slam!
Let's use your qualified terms of 44° versus 34°. Do you realize that weather conditions can make the lesser angle target a harder to acquire target than the wider degree? No you don't, that's obvious but not important to you. How many targets are affected by a more significant angle per 100 on average?

You know Longshot, your comment about Tom and your lack of acknowledgement pertaining to his accomplishment is the lowest comment I witnessed from you. Now since your seemingly promote the tough target and state your desire to experience once again shooting such, why don't you challenge Tom to a grudge match? Do it with 44° targets at any yardage. Remember he's older so that should be an advantage. He by your own admission can only break sissy targets. Seems he should be a piece of cake to thump.

 

I knew Tom's accomplishments, by reading Trap & Field, if the club where he shot, Traps were set at the 44 degree target angles, he will know what he shot, He has fantastic accomplishments, I admire him for that, Doing it twice is even more admirable. Were they PITA targets, or ATA targets, I believe some of the PITA targets were more strict on the angles, and did not follow the NW ATA settings. Did you read what HISTORY BUFF wrote. Tom Knows what target angles that club is known for throwing, and the club knows what their target settings were and are. I am not cutting Tom down, but was the targets he shot on the same hard angles as the first 40? That is the ultimate answer. The angle is the true tale, a 17 degree angle is a very easy target to break, Hap knows that, Tom Knows that, have you not read what Hap has written about angles.

 

Hey did you hear that Danica Patrick dropped out of the Daytona 500?

Yeah, she said NACAR racing has simply become too easy.

-Gary

 

Yes you are "cutting Tom down" unless by your own words he can prove to you his targets he broke one of his slams consisted of 44° flights.

Per your last statement, I asked you for the average percentage of targets per 100 that the increased angle would have an affect on. Obviously since your steering away from the question by pointing to reading what Hap wrote, you have no idea.

 

deepbackwoods, you are so correct guy! 44 degree angles off a Winchester hand-set is not the same thing as 44 degree angles off a Pat trap! Should be but isn't and this is why; Pat traps tend to hang toward center fields more so than the old traps did without hanging at the extreme corners as long!! As Neil Winston said on TS a while back, adopting Pat traps nationwide was a mistake for our sport and I agree with his view for the reasons I outlined above. Probably why the experimental year of 96 didn't affect as many top shooters as thought for high or even higher averages?

Gary, if the tables were turned and my great friend Tom Strunk made invalid statements toward you, he's man enough to admit his wrong and apologize to anyone for it, you should do the same! If you can't do that also, your even less a man than I always thought!

HAP

 

Had a little time before the Daytona 500 to check on some other shooters that are not the best of the best according to longshot.

They are all after my Grand Slam except for the first man #43 is Phil Kiner, the others he thinks shot soft targets to achieve their Grand Slams are; myself (50) Daro Handy (55), Pat McCarthy (54), Larry Bumstead (60), Bob Gilbertson (57), Wayne Mayes (65), Frank Hoppe (86), Gary Bonetti (109), Al Ferreira (holds singles high average) (99), Stuart Welton (97), Scott Gens (107), Sean Hawley (115), Bob Munson (113), and Dave Berlet (166). All of these men are VERY accomplished trapshooters.

These are just a few of the shooters that longshot keeps harping about that according to him shot easy soft targets. I will say that everyone that has accomplished a Grand Slam should be admired for their hard work and talent, not be accused of being anything less than any other.

Tom Strunk

 

Tom, (Quaildog)

I have watched a handful of the shooters you mentioned above in awe of their abilities. And on the plus side they will talk to the average trapshooter with as much respect as they do each other.

Those are the type of people we need in trapshooting to help grow the sport. The constant belittlement of someone who differs in opinion and the degrading remarks of the ATA and past presidents only will hurt the sport in the long run.

Thank you for your post and for being one of those shooters mentioned in my first sentence above..

 

In my opinion anyone who has accomplished a Grand Slam should be acknowledged no matter when this was accomplished. Just think of the number of shooters who will never have a Grand Slam in all their years of shooting and all the targets shot at. These are the rules we presently shoot under and until rules are changed, if ever, we should accept and and acknowledge present and future Grand Slam winners.

 

Alright longshot, I'll tell you about angles. In 1986 I shot almost no ATA targets and none in 1987, why you ask ?? I'll tell you why.

In 86 Dan Carlisle of Olympic fame started running a sporting clay course at Mike Raahauge's shooting grounds in Norco, CA. I really liked shooting sporting targets as there was every presentation imaginable thrown there. It was easy for me, many WIDE and LONG angle targets. I loved it. And it paid very well.

After a couple of months long elimination tournament, five shooters qualified for team USA Sporting. Dan Carlisle was team captain, the others were Dan Reeves (teaches Hollywood how to shoot) Allan Owens, Ken Robertson, and myself. We all except Ken (he got very sick), Jay Braccini was first alternate, and filled in for Ken, went to England to represent the USA in sporting clay completion in 1987. We did well, and let me tell you longshot, there were angles and presentations you could never dream of over there. I built another Winchester Super-X for sporting with a 28 inch barrel with Briley thinwall chokes. I have a whole album of pictures my wife took of the group of us shooting there, great memories.

Tom Strunk

 

Motorcycle racing, drag strip racing, registered ATA targets, super shot on SC fields and this, he really excels when you get into some wild assed clay target shooting!! Two trap fields over from the 27? Piece of cake and the longer and wider the better he likes them!! Challenge him if you'd like but you'd better be WELL prepared for an onslaught!

In 2009, Tom and I went to the CA state shoot in Kingsburg. In the handicap championship event on Sunday, Tom shot a lone 99 smoking practically every target!! A group of Labs began barking continuously right behind our trap on the last field causing a heck of a disturbance, I believe if not for that, he woulda had a lone 100 that day too! I know because on that windless day shooting beside him, the smoke balls kinda just hung in the air finally wafting off! I had to wait for the air to clear somewhat before I called my target which woulda run smack dab into the middle of that ball of smoke!

Sitting with Phil Ross at the concession stand shooting the breeze that day Phil made this statement concerning Tom. Phil said Tom was the absolute best unknown trap shooter he ever knew! Tom may have been an unknown shooter in ATA circles but the west coast guys knew him very well! Had he gotten someone to run his pool business for him, everyone in the country would've known who he was, nary a doubt in my mind!!

HAP

 

Such a silly and ingnorant comment. Advances in equipment, instruction, and training are raising the bar at practically every level of every sport. To miss this you would have to be incredibly myopic or just have your head buried in the sand.

 

Tom Strunk is a gentlemen.

Few would suffer a fool so well.

Good luck at the Spring Grand.

 

I would like to thank everyone that has posted something about me. I'm very humbled by your kind words. If I see any of you in the future, please come and introduce yourself. Maybe we'll have time to sit and have some coffee, or beer together.

Tom Strunk

 

Uh er,, I'll have a case of Bud please??

Hapster

 

Nora Ross.

Youngest shooter ever inducted into the Trapshooting HOF.

Beat Ray Stafford head-to-head.

Ever heard of her?

-Gary

 

Gary.....When I started shooting ATA targets they were the 3 hole version.Shot my first 200 singles straight and went to the fence with them..The ATA will never go back to 3 hole targets because they want to attract new members,not scare them off.
We all know that American shooters want good scores, and that means easier targets. Remember skeet with gun down when you called, now it's gun mounted..Remember sporting clays with gun down when you called, now you can mount the gun .
Bunker shooting is much harder and that is why there are far fewer people and places in North America shooting that discipline.

 

Two Dogs, what you write is very true! Everyone loves shooting a great score regardless of ease or difficulty, that's just human nature!

If you recall, the game of "skeet" was about to go belly up because of "easing" of target presentations and changes to that game? If not for incorporating other shooting venues via the skeet organization's leadership, the original game of skeet would be history because of those changes. Should they do that same thing in extremes to SCs, they too may experience more trouble also?

Those buying into this "easier" is better mentality looking for better scores thinking it will actually grow it's membership roles should make it even easier if that's a better idea? That would follow our President, Rob Taylor's idea or his suggestion also! Maybe he's truly on to something with his thinking but most shooting sports history says that's just not so either!

Bunker shooting? That's a horse of a different species and in no way could or should be compared to American trap shooting number wise! That game just isn't designed for attracting the masses like American trap shooting is. That game is designed for the young eyes and lightning like reflexes on a global scale! That excludes all the old timers that trap shooting relies on today? So, in my views, it's really no wonder it's a limited game not only here but worldwide!

In our sport of trap shooting, if we adopted a straight away from post three for singles and handicap shooting, scores would further skyrocket but the winners brackets wouldn't change at all. Neither would our growth rate, if anything, it would fall even faster and at a more drastic rate! These are my opinions based on all the shooting history I've learned over the years. Feel free to point out where I'm wrong with facts based on history and not opinions or egos?

Gene Hapney

 

Just shut up and shoot, if you don't like the targets that are thrown try shooting skeet. Woody

 

Just add three more yards of concrete to the top handicap shooters and everyone should be happy-except them!

 

Come on dawg...both you and I know that won't work. The American shooter wants good scores and doesn't want to work hard to get to the fence...now you want to move it 9 feet farther away?

 

50% of today's ATA members quit before they reach the 21 yd. line!

 

dawg...if that is true we won't have many members in the ATA in a couple of years...

 

Thats why starting them at the 22 won't make a difference, after all it's called handicap for a reason.

 

Her is a little research I did on pa.hdcp.shooters. 1971,12 27yd.shooters. 1976,63 27yd. 1977,52 27yd. 1991,168 27yd.shooters. what changed in those years.

 

"what changed in those years"

In 1971 you shot from the 27 because you had to ... it said you were good enough to be handicapped at that level, and they made you do it.

By 1991 people shot the 27 because they wanted to ... it became a false symbol of ability.

Shooters didn't become better ... the goal was changed by those not willing to compete for the top prize of the day.

Of the many people to reach the 27, very few needed to stay. Those who 'win-by-chance' ... are happy that they stand where they think it makes them look like they are better than they are.

In those 20-years the competitive nature of Trapshooting changed ... the targets, shells, and all the other talking points were a side-effect. When where you stand and a non-winning high score became the things people would accept for their effort ... that is what made Trap change it's course.

 

Trap changed it's coarse first and formost when we went to voice calls, no more bad calls, and than when auto traps were introduced, consistant targets.
As for the number of shooters standing on the 27, there were just as many standing on the 22-23-24-25 etc..because of more shooters...simple...
Yes, there are lots of 27yd. shooters that shouldn't be there, but just the same for all yards..

 

Shooter retention is a huge issue for ATA members. We recruit 'em and they typically disappear within three years. If you look at the average age of ATA membership you'd realize that we're in even bigger trouble there. I'll say it again "many shooters quit before they even gain a single yard". I'd wager 50% isn't far off!

 

"Yes, there are lots of 27yd. shooters that shouldn't be there, but just the same for all yards.." .... really ???

How many "22-23-24-25" yard shooters 'brag' about where they stand ???? And fight to stay there .... They are 'trapped' by a reduction system that is stupid at best. A 90 break-point is stupid, when shooting at that level will win NOTHING. So is it 'sand-bag' ... or quit ???

If you can request the 25 yard-line, with no known ability to be there, how can anyone take the 'handicap-system' serious ???

In my opinion ... letting Industry support full-time shooters started the real drop off a cliff ....

Voice-calls, easy targets, clinics, and all the other talking points, will never lift those who are not willing to work for success.

The ability to shoot tens-of-thousands of targets, all over the country, while Industry supplies support, started those to be able to master the 27. Not too many paying their own way can do this.

You can make good shooters better with 'improvements' ... but ... those willing to part with their money to stand somewhere they do not belong, paying money to others for 'magic snake oil cures', will always be dead weight pulling the sport down. Get off the couch watching someone's DVD, hoping they can make you better while sitting on your butt, and be 'in-it-to-win-it' ...

 

User 1 ..You are right about some AA shooters getting benifits ( I think that program is finished now )..

Now...Do you really believe that returning to the old days (3 hole..52 yd. target ) will help those struggling shooters get to the fence?

 

To me ... this ... "help those struggling shooters get to the fence" ... makes no sense ...

Why does a "struggling shooter" ... need help ... "getting to the fence" ?????

They are going to get there and do what ??????

I would not waste my time and money "getting to the fence" ... to only be a squad-filler.

And ... as always ... your mileage may vary.

 

I must have missed that class because I thought getting better at the game was what it was all about.