Good Intentions/Bad Results Martins Money and the ATA

I've been thinking about this subject for several years and I've decided it's time for me to let it fly. Bill Martin has been way more than generous with his money when it comes to Sparta and the Grand. He has made every effort financially to entice today's ATA shooters to go to Sparta and Support the Grand and let's face it is not working.

He mostly paid for the Illinois Owned Museum and HOF building, he gave several years of the 100 grand shoot off winner take all, a HOA lewis class one or two years, I can't keep up with all that's been tried with Martin money to get Grand numbers up.

I'll contend that Mr.Martins cash would have went much farther if it would have been used around the country in support of state shoots like the Budweiser money was back in the 80's instead of in an effort to pump up Sparta and the EC's bad decision to move there. I realize that Mr. Martin has been dealing with some really selfish men on the EC in this time period and getting bad info riddled with wishful hoping.

It's too bad the Martins weren't around in the hey day of ATA trap shooting so they would understand what many of us have been so upset about, but that is wishful thinking on my part.


If the ATA wouldn't of had the Martin money to prop up Sparta and it had to stand on its own merits the place would have lived or died on it's own. Like a parent who loves their kids being an enabler seldom works out for the best. I don't fault Bill Martin at all but I think he has not helped the sport of trap shooting like he wished too.

Brad Dysinger

 

The Martins are astute business people, they know when their money is properly invested. They feel and hear first hand from the people who actually attend the Grand about the satisfaction their donations bring about.

 

IMO, he did very well for ATA except that 100k for shoot off winner is kind of wasted in regards to promoting the Grand.
Those who had a chance to win that 100k are the big dogs, big dogs will not leave the Grand.
Money spent on promoting new trap shooters probably will do better for the Grand.

 

"The people that actually attend the grand"
Translation?

Hey Dysinger, you don't even go so you don't know what you are talking about.

If you would go to that place in IL.for that shoot you would see for yourself that the martins money got hundreds and hundreds of people to go there. Hell, the one year they had almost eighteen times a hundred for the GAH alone. Just think what the attendance would have been without their money donation.

There ya have it mike j. Proof that even though I don't go to that place I know what a fantastic job that money did. Why, if the ata corp. could get just a little more out of the martins I bet the number of shooters signing up would sky rocket. They might even get 2,100 people to shoot the BIG event. That would be something wouldn't it? Imagine, 2,100 people shooting in one event.

Maybe if mr. Martin gave TWICE as much money they could even get close to the numbers that the GRAND used to get. OK, twice as much wouldn't do it. Maybe four times as much? Naw, that wouldn't do it either. Five times?

The sad truth mike j. is that NO amount of money is going to get that shoot back to where it was before the move to that place.

 

Mike J, What would you say the Martin's goals were/are? Prop up Sparta or Promote ATA Trap Shooting? Which have they accomplished?

I hope that the Martin's were shooting for more than just a bunch of slaps on the back and atta boys from those happy Sparta goer's. I'd like to think so. Brad

 

Brad, given that they are not from Illinois it will be most certainly to promote the sport. I think the Grand is doing fine with almost 3,500 paid entries each day during Grand week except the GAH which needs higher attendance.

Revenues total over $1 million for the entire shoot. That seems like success to me. Other, than the centennial year can you provide the gross revenues from the Grands at Vandalia? I will do the present value calculations for comparison.

See you at the greatest shoot on Earth next year!

 

Mike J.
You may see a lot of thing but you will not see the majority of the members that are left in the ATA at the grand next year or any year in the future ... There is no amount of money that will draw a crowd to the WSRC facility in Sparta, Ill so get over it ... If you went and enjoyed yourself, good for you but others have found and made other shoots their grand in the mean time ... If the numbers you see impressed you, you have never been to the real Grand when it was the Grand ... The revenues you mention (over 1 million for the entire shoot ) don't cover the over head of the facility and come in way short of the 20/30 Million generated in the region and local area by the Talking Head, Lynn Gipson when he was mapping out a fantastic direction for the organization to head in ... If you are impressed, it sure don't take much to impress you ... You sure talk a lot but say nothing of any substance, how are you at make graphs and charts to prove you point ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT, I think it is you guys that have no intention of attending Sparta that need to get over it. Who cares about your daily gripes here when you are part of the problem for low attendance. Bottom line is those who live in the present and attend the greatest shoot on Earth have a blast!

BTW, I talked to one of your State team members and asked him about all the negativity spewed here about Sparta and he said that you people need to get over it. That's from one of your best!

 

Mike J ..... Go to the Missouri Fall Handicap, if you have not already ....... If you can "have a blast" in "Sparta", the Missouri Fall Handicap will be beyond your wildest dreams .....

 

What is a State Team? Was Dysinger on one of those?

Not sure what the red label means on his avatar?

 

What it means at one time you were picked for that team based on shooting ability. The criteria has changed in the last few years.

 

Brad, Bill Martin has supported many clubs not just Sparta, I have known Bill for over 25 years and he is the most generous member the shooting sports I have ever known. His friends also help many clubs. It is greatly appreciated by the people that know this. Roger C.

 

Mike J.
We got over it a long time ago, you can talk to anyone you want and none of them will be able to talk for the rest of us ... Get over it, enjoy it if you like it, there are more than do not and will not go there which was expressed to the ATA in advance before the move ... They blew it off and since then they have gotten blown off by no body showing up in numbers to support the move ... The many who have quit shooting registered shooting have done so rather than support the ATA in any way (think daily fees ), most have not quit shooting just supporting the ATA ... If you don't like the gripes "DON"T READ THEM" or are you to stupid to understand that concept ..? There is no one on our State team qualified to speak for me so he or she was blowing smoke up your ass ... The shoot will never be grand in Sparta, Ill , move it any place else and you will see ... The more you talk the less you say that makes any sense ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Roger you can remember the Budweiser money, each state shoot got money for a Budweiser handicap and then those winners got to shoot for more Budweiser money at the grand in the Budweiser Handicap. This totaled too a couple of hundred thousand each year. that money supported ATA shooting in each state. During those years that Budweiser was supporting ATA registered shooting was up all over the country, not just a couple of clubs. I realize the Martins' have put a crap load of money into ATA shooting but I'll ask you what have the gotten out of it? What has the sport gotten out of it.

If their goal has been to make ATA shooting grow for the last 25 years you yourself know it's not working. Every State shoot in the country has fewer shooters today than 25 years ago. In fact the only growth seen anywhere in trap is with the SCTP program, (also the high school team bunch out of Minnesota).

The Cardinal SCTP Nationals were up 10% this year while their ATA shoots were down close to the same. The SCTP teams are mainly funded with the Midway USA foundation money from the Potterfields. I think they started about 8 yrs ago, give or take a year. So here is an example of two individuals giving money for shooting but using two different models. You can see which one is more successful. Brad

 

KEEP PROPPING THAT PLACE UP!
Waste some more money. Why just $60,000? Why not $200,000? Show us what great managers they are of money. Keep the beggers in Illinois. Keep PULL2012 in Illinois.

The whole destruction of the ATA by this gang deserves more money.

Better yet. Give $400K to Mike to spend.

 

LOL. Please make sure they send it to Mike I....too many Mikes out there

 

Budweiser, if you are reading, thanks bunches. You guys did lots to promote the sport of trapshooting across the country.

 

Chalk one up for WPT !

I was one more of these guys.

 

Brad I remember on that other site, before this One was started about the Martin's money was not Paid Out per THEIR Instructions, The Martins were upset, I heard more of it when I was there at Sparta and overheard several big dogs say they were upset on HOW THEIR MONEY WAS PAID OUT, I even posted something about it, I remember posting it explicibly.

I heard then they were not going to put large amounts again, but support some of THEIR favorite clubs

Gary Bryant.............................Dr.longshot

 

The Martins have helped many clubs with their shooting facilities. Not just with prize money.
I posted at one time that propping up the ATA with money was like pouring money down a dry hole, I directed this to Mr Martin seeing as how he is an oil man. Do not know if he read it or not. Roger C.

 

Brad,
Was there not a problem created by the EC about the Budweiser money? I think they pissed off the Budweiser and they stopped their sponsorship. Roger C.

 

When the ATA took on a money maker he charged extra fees from all vendors, and asked for money from Budweiser, Budweiser refused and pulled out, that's when the State Fair food came in and we lost the Sausage guy, they finally fired/replaced him to get budweiser back, I think it took 2-3 years for that to happen, HB will know that guys name he not only raised their fees but wanted a cut of their profits, C'mon HB Chime in here, Please

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I'm not sure what happened with Budweiser but Dr has most of the facts close as we heard it back then. If I ever met Bill Martin I can't remember it, just know him by his donations, I know Leo used to shoot his shoot in UTAH but I had quit traveling by then.

That's the thing about productive holes, they all dry up at some time and how will the ATA (or whom will the ATA find) get along then?

I've been warning for the last 7 - 10 years that what is going to hurt the Cardinal Center is that the states around Ohio are losing Registered shooters so fast. Michigan and Indiana states' shoots' are half as big as they used to be and Ohio has lost a lot ATA members in that time also, even with a great place like the CC.

The Cardinal Center located in the Columbus area has all the other shooting sports to fall back on Sporting Clays, Rifle and Pistol range, even Skeet but the number one event they hold for them is the SCTP. If the SCTP ever gets smart and stops making their kids join the ATA there goes another 500 members in Ohio but that will only hurt the state association not the CC.

The numbers are coming down to crunch time pretty fast and I'd hate to think that the Martin money was the only thing keeping the EC heading down the drain without facing the truth. Enabling them to hold own and keep their heads firmly stuck in the sand.

Brad

 

I heard the rumors surrounding the Anheuser-Busch's withdrawing their sizeable support to the ATA. Many will remember the success of the Budweiser Handicaps throughout the country as well as at the Grand American Handicap.

I sought out and discussed the rumor with a person who was deeply involved with this matter due to their relationship with both the ATA and Anheuser-Busch. I received confirmation that the ATA official in charge of sponsorship did not seem thankful for A-B's years of support dating back to at least 1982, but actually demanded the company up their contribution.

That encounter led to the loss of a great sponsor for the game of trapshooting. Other than my discussion noted above, I have no personal knowledge of all details nor do I have any documents to support this claim.
I am unaware of any documented explanation by the ATA for the loss of Budweiser sponsorship. I'd certainly appreciate hearing the ATA's side of the dispute.

(Full disclosure: I don't drink Budweiser beer.)

HB

 

Was the Budweiser sponsorship more like the Championship of Champions shoot where only the best in each state compete? Just asking based on a description in one of Brad's post.

 

Yes, shooters winning State or Provincial Budweiser Handicap events were eligible to shoot in the Budweiser Handicap Champion of Champions event at the Grand American.

As an example, Budweiser provided $70,000 to shoot sponsorship for the 1995 target year.

HB

 

Seems like a sponsorship like this might increase State attendance for that event but not much for the Grand since the shooters are already "selected" to shoot at the Grand. Maybe Brad was suggesting that the Martins should focus on increasingly State attendance??

 

Yeah....that's what OH and PA are waiting for. An enticement to go to the gun hate state.

 

But...if you put out $60K to the CC what would happen?

 

Mob scene likely.

 

lbrown, If it was high gun most likely nothing out of the ordinary. High gun purses are welfare for the top shooters. They worked hard to get where the are, but no welfare needed. Make all purses 40,30,20,10 ties divide .Bring back the wolf purses for the high gun players. I can remember purse that paid back 8 or 10 places ties divide, and they were played by most of the shooters. Roger C.

 

The ATA hired a Person to handle the Leases of FOOD Vendor Spots, And I believe forcing purchase of buildings to Vend From or they would not be allowed to sell merchandise, then ATA backed down and allowed Tent Vendors, and Pissed Off all the Buyers of the Buildings, for the Good Ole Boys Club. tHIS GUY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH another sport, Hockey I think, and they fired him, his name is in my scrapbook, if I can find it. The EC & BOD went across the road to the Sausage Guy buy them, he moved there on year and gave up, but the ATA execs loved that Sausage Vendor Too. The food was terrible from then on, no quality. The guys name was in the Grand Program and in ATA Minutes when he was hired, he went on to another sport and THEY FIRED Him, cannot find my scrapbook. This guy tried to demand more from Budweiser and that was it for Budweiser, fer several years.

I thought HB would remember him. Carson woods was his name, Forrest Woods son.

GB................................DLS

 

Doc, I remember that now, another in their long line of fantastic moves. Roger C.

 

Sometimes I start turning over rocks just for grins. The mention of Carson Woods was the inspiration today. I want to say his position was a new one at the time. Does anyone remember?

One of the rocks I turned over showed the number of entries in the 1975 Ohio State Shoot Handicap Championsip. The figure was 1600 plus according to the ATA Hall of Fame list of achievements for an inductee. I wonder what amount of sponsorship was needed to draw 1600 plus to such an event. Maybe someone here has the program.

My next rock turned over was the 2018 Illinois Handicap Championship. It had 387 entries.

So I wonder if the ATA bothered to look at the same two events from say 1998 to 2004 before they pinned the tail on the compass. I wonder what those figures may have suggested to them.......if anything.

 

Par4 I remember the 1975 Ohio State Shoot well. Back then the Ohio State shoot benefited from being held in Vandalia. A lot of out of state shooters would should our state shoot to practice for the grand. A good comparison of that would be to look at the Ohio attendance in 1981 when the state shoot was held at Middletown. A lot smaller.

Check the numbers on the 1975 Illinois State shoot, they had years of over 1000 shooters themselves. Brad Dysinger (1975 Ohio Handicap Champ)

 

Brad:

I kind of thought you might recall a few Ohio State Shoots. I may have seen you shoot a few program targets and some extra innings at a location not too far from the Dayton Airport.

You bring up an excellent point about the Ohio State Shoot when at Vandalia being used as practice for the Grand. It was the inspiration in my looking at the 2018 US Open Handicap Championship Number. I thought the number might be high. When you consider the practice for the Grand opportunity and my understanding of the LG guaranteed 4 point incentive; one might think the shoot would be a big draw. Well, the Illinois State Shoot at the other large Illinois shooting venue (Brittany) smoked the US Open in the big handicap. The US Open Handicap Championship had 280 entries. The 2018 Ohio State Shoot Handicap Championship in contrast shows 858 entries IIRC.

 

I may be mistaken, but I think the Prelim. Hdcp. was sponsored by Budweiser.

Doc's right about the cheapening of food on the grounds.


Regards Gerald

 

Roger, what is the wolf purse? Seems you wanted a Lewis type split but I get the impression that many would like the chance of winning a big pay out. I note that all those that shot 100s in the two main Handicap events did not play the $30,000 option and that could possibly be because of the 10 way split. Wonder how many would have played if it was winner take all? I would have. Maybe we should do a poll to gauge preference.

 

''HIGH GUN'' is basicaly winner take all.

 

Not when the top gun gets $6,000 instead of $30,000.

 

IMO, the ones that did not play the high gun purse, would not even think of playing what your saying. Back in the day i loved shooting the High Gun purses. I traveled to many big money shoots, like The Golden West Grand, Bob Taylors, Elko and stayed at the big hotels sponcering the shoots like the Golden Nugget,and the Mint. This is when a 50 straight could pay for the whole week...back then, yes i would have played what your saying.

 

MikeJ, When it states high gun in any option. It does not matter what the split could be, 40/30/20/10. If there are 4 100 straights they split the whole purse. 100% divided 25% to each 100. The percentages are over ruled by the words high gun. Roger C.

 

The Bartholow Brothers stack up the trophies at the 2017 Grand


Congratulations Matt: Radians HOA 2600 Targets Championship ---- Event Champion- 2556x2600
Matt & Foster take home a pile of trophies at the 2017 Grand American.

• Event 2- Trap & Field Handicap-----Matt- Event 4th-97x100
• Event 3- Little Egypt Golf Cars Doubles---- Matt- Event Runner up - 100x100
• Event 4- MEC Shooting Sports Singles---- Foster- Event 3rd-100x100
• Event 6- Zoli International Doubles---- Matt- AAA Champion – 99x100
• Event 7- Sterling Cut Glass Singles---- Foster- Event 3rd– 100x100
• Event 8- Gipson-Ricketts Handicap---- Matt- Event 3rd– 98x100
• Event 9- Kolar Doubles----Matt- Event 3rd- 99x100
• Event 10- NRA Singles ---- Matt- AAA Champion – 200x200
• Event 11- Krieghoff 100 Handicap---- Matt- Event 4th– 98x100
• Event 12- Rio Ammo Doubles---- Matt- Event Champion – 100x100
• Event 13- Blaser Handicap---- Matt- 27-yard runner up – 97x100
• Event 14- Wenig Doubles---- Matt- AAA Champion – 100x100
• Gun & Trophy Insurance Preliminary HOA 1000 targets---- Matt- Event Champion- 986x1000
• White Flyer HOA 1500 targets---- Matt- Event Champion- 1480x1500
• EZ Go HAA Preliminary Week---- Matt- Event Champion- 398x400
• Winchester Super 500 Singles---- Foster- AAA Runner up- 498x500
• Millennium Luxury Coaches Super 500 Handicap---- Matt- Event Champion- 485x500
• Gun & Trophy Insurance Super 500 Doubles---- Matt- Event Champion- 498x500
• National Team Race- Team SD – Event Champions---- Matt 296x300, Foster 286x300
• Sibling Race (Brother/Brother) ----- Foster and Matt- Champions 200x200 each (400x400)
• Event 20- Kubota Doubles----Matt- AAA Runner up 100x100
• Event 24- Remington Grand American Handicap- Matt- Event 3rd- 96x100
• Blue/Gray Shootout Championship--- Blue (North) team champion- Matt 23x25
• State Team Race---- SD team runner up- Matt 199x200 Foster 200x200
• ATA HOA by Prize Possessions 1000 Grand Week---- Matt- AAA Runner up- 976x1000
• Radians HOA 2600 Targets Championship ---- Matt- Event Champion- 2556x2600

Carried it over to 2018, great shooting by obviously talented young men … WPT … (YAC) …

 

Matt,

I'm still going forward on that top lever. Roger C.

 

Plus they are great shooters. They are in the HOF.

 

I have heard the same story about the ATA official and the Budweiser pull-out. I also remember that when Budweiser came in all other beers were no longer sold on the ATA grounds as they were previously. That was part of the deal.

 

Are the numbers (or lack of same) at the Grand indicative of trapshooting's overall health in this country?
I have to wonder if too much emphasis is being placed on one (large) event.....

 

I agree. In west central Ohio, non reg 10 bird, buddy shoots and meat shoots are doing well with plenty of people playing the purses and calcuttas.

 

Mudpack,

The Grand was always the climax to a shooting year that all looked forward to. It was the Kentucky Derby of trap shooting. It has diminished in stature do to the start up of all of the satilite (grands). They are a mistake that should be rectified.
We have 50 state shoots, plus zone shoots, and satilite grands, why would the grand be a big draw any more? The costs to attend the Grand, will also cover many state shoots and satilite grand events. The Grand is not the Grand any more, the magic is not there any more. To many mistakes have been made that caused this to happen, but it did. Roger C.

 

We've got away from my intention when I started this thread, Do you think Martin's money has helped or hurt trap shooting as a sport? I think it has hurt it. If he wasn't giving the ATA money to prop up one spot, Sparta, maybe some shooters would have stayed around and all the shoots that are smaller today than the first day he gave the EC money might have been saved. At most I can't see how anyone can say it has helped trap shooting. JUST the EC and a few special friends have seen the benefit. Brad

 

Brad, do you feel the same way about Mr. Hunter and all the others who have donated their money to the ATA over the years?

 

The Martins have invested money, time, and efforts in more than one club or facility ... Tucson has had many improvements over the years, not to mention the expansion program which has made it probably one of the finest shooting facilities in the Southwest ... The club in Vernal and the general area around the club have reaped the harvest thanks to the generosity of the Martins / Harts, people rave about the club and all of the funded programs donated and paid for by the Martins, Harts etc ...
I do not think anyone for one second thinks the facility in Sparta, Ill would still be in operation if not Signature Sponsor ships and generous donations by the Martins the past several years any way ... That is just the way the Martins are, when asked one time about why he does it, he responded, because I can (may not be the exact words but close enough) ... You cannot take it away from them they are good people, to good for some peoples liking but good people none the less ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I don't think so .....

You have to keep all the puzzle pieces together to see the whole picture ......

Any ATA shoots, held in any location, will fall victim to the garbage rule book that is way beyond anyone's understanding .....

Now it is pick your yardage, pick your class, pick your gender, pick your nose, or pick anything else, then make use of as many Mulligans as needed to break 99's and 100's from all yardages and in all classes .....

Even ol'N1H1 can't make sense of the current doubles "rules" ...... miss the first target, refuse to shoot the second target, take your Mulligan, shoot both targets over and be scored a "dead pair" ..... You CAN NOT beat perfect scores, you just have to keep shooting until everyone else loses ..... And that can be many more targets when everyone can "play the Mulligan rules", until those who pay their own way see the cost of shooting the additional hundreds of their own shells, having much more value than a plastic duck or "points" and no money ......

The same garbage in a different location makes the "stay" more pleasant, but keeps the the reason for being there the same old garbage .....

 

Garry, Some of Bill Martins friends have also been very generous with regards to shooting sports. Craig Hart and family, have also donated to many shoots and clubs. They are from the Vernal area also. We should all thank them for their generosity. At one time Bill was planning to build a place like the Silver Dollar out here in the Phoenix area. I think the person he hired killed the deal with his inaction on surveying the ranch that was offered for the project. Roger C.

 

I think that what happened before Sparta isn't the issue. I contend that since the move to Illinois, in direct opposition to what the ATA's own survey of ATA members said by the way, everything the EC has done has been to try and pump up the grand to prove they (the EC) were right in their decision to the detriment of Trap Shooting.

So user 1 I see your point.


The rule changes, the added categories, the bastardized All American teams, the insane 2 yards off twice, were all done to try and make shooters shoot the grand. Guess what it hasn't worked. I think the Martins money has helped save the EC. Every state shoot has fewer entrees today than they did before the move to Illinois. That is my point.

When the Martins were giving the money to the shooters, and to the ATA, with the 100,000 dollars and Lewis class money I thought they were doing a great thing and said so, but the last couple of years by bailing out the EC and being a sponsor of the grand I think they are not helping trap shooting. If they are why isn't it working? Why is registered shooting going south? The grand is just one trap shoot. The grand never has had more the 10 per cent of the ATA members attend. Sometime you risk going from a helper to an enabler, and then who are you really helping and when is that threshold crossed?

If you really want to know about the health of Sparta and trap shooting look and see what the industry is doing. Companies and vendors don't back EC members they back the sport, or don't. Brad

 

The money and sponsorships of the grand by the Martins/ Harts has not proved to be an enticement, I seem to recall when they put up the $100,000 there was a minimal increase in shooters attending (less than 5 increase ) so that was no doubt a flop … That's not to say that all of the money invested by the Martins and Harts was not done to try and make it better … The investment of good money after a bad location has not done anything to improve the grand in any way … The ATA skims the cream off of the top while others pay the support … If it were me, I would tell them pay the way with the increased income realized by the ATA and other sponsors monies, what that does not cover I will … The ATA is in a Win/Win situation as it stands with basically nothing to lose … Sooner or later they will bite the hands that are feeding them and the walls will come tumbling down … WPT … (YAC) …