Sparta experience

The ATA never sent out W2's until Joe Loving became EC member. That's what we get for having an accountant as VP.

 

Roger:

Thanks for bringing to my attention an event day change which extended a scheduled 200 target day to 300 targets. That would certainly make a difference in the finish daylight on that one day.

 

And ATA financial statements did not show the Presidents shotgun expense, nor did the ATA provide IRS Form 1099's to those President who bought themselves a nice new shotgun.

It is my understanding that Past President Ray Greb instructed that all living past presidents be sent a 1099 as well as every new annual president in the future. Heard some were really mad.

Every one of them (Past Presidents) should have known failing to pay tax on the gun was unlawful and should have been advised by the ATA's legal counsel.

Every one of them should have known that it was not permitted by ATA Constitution and By-Laws. These leaders know the rules, policies and by-laws. There's no playing "I didn't know" on either issue.

ATA member and CPA Robert Glatz informed the Executive Committee and Board of Directors of this but they deemed his opinion incorrect . . . that is . . . until the Illinois Attorney General's office upon their investigation of the ATA, advised them to amend the By-Laws to permit the "presidential gun."

Rather than view this past practice of disguising the gun purchase within the allowable expense reports as a serious violation of ATA Constitution and By-Law provisions established back in 1923, every Delegate voted to amend the By-Laws to make our rules comply with the improper practice.

We certainly want to provide a gift to every outgoing ATA President for their service, but when it first learned that a president purchased a gun for their self with ATA funds without an IRS 1099 being issued so they could properly pay tax on the so-called gift, the Board of Directors should have ceased this practice or amended the By-Laws to permit it. However, it continued for decades without scrutiny.

They chose to look the other way year after year.

So now each year, the new ATA President purchases a new gun in which the ATA will pay up to $16,500.

Well, at least it finally complies with federal and state tax laws and the ATA Constitution and By-Laws.

That's how the rumor was told to me.

HB

 

From HB

Every one of them (Past Presidents) should have known failing to pay tax on the gun was unlawful and should have been advised by the ATA's legal counsel.

Every one of them should have known that it was not permitted by ATA Constitution and By-Laws. These leaders know the rules, policies and by-laws. There's no playing "I didn't know" on either issue.

That is sanctioned embezzlement. Every gun or monies to buy them should be returned.
-------

It sounds like the CC needs some new leadership to keep it on the top.

 

Ain't that something? They have/had and accountant but when it came to PULL2012LLC they had

NO ACCOUNTABILITY

Ya gota love these guys. The crap they got/get away with is masterful

 

What is the ATA?
The ATA serves as the faithful protector of the sport of trapshooting. As the largest clay target shooting organization in the world, the ATA governs the sport's rules and regulations and seeks ways to further enhance the sport and increase participation.

The ATA was founded in 1900 as the American Trapshooting Association and later changed to the Amateur Trapshooting Association in 1923. A Board of Directors, composed of state and provincial delegates govern all ATA policy matters. The Executive Committee, which is comprised of one representative from each of the five Zones, provides stewardship for the association throughout the year. The organization's day-to-day business is guided by an Executive Director and a team of professionals at the national headquarters in Sparta, IL.

Annually, ATA members participate in 6,000 plus registered tournaments and shoot at more than 60 million targets. With more than 900 gun clubs affiliated with the ATA you can find registered shooting just about anywhere.

The ATA Homegrounds, located in Sparta, IL, is also home to the Grand American World Trapshooting Championships each August. This annual event draws nearly 4,000 competitors and showcases some of the best shooting talent in the world!

(Above information on the ATA is courtesy the ATA)



ATA's home grounds ???? They are renters, renters have no HOME GROUNDS … (deceptions personified ) If you want a really good laugh, READ THIS ..
WPT … (YAC) …

 

Flyer,

From ANY ATA minutes I have read there NEVER was a 2012 PULL LLC

ANY minutes I ever read state this as: PULL LLC

NO 2012 was ever in the minutes...

TYPO ???

Forgot ?

Throw members OFF BASE when researching the owner of PULL LLC ?

You decide.

I know it pissed me off that after Gipson was asked to have the minutes CORRECTED to read 2012 PULL LLC, it never happened to my knowledge !

And we wish for accountability ? Ha !

 

I’m just a newby and live on the East coast but here is my take. Who the hell wants to use vacation time to go to Sparta, Illinois? I don’t care what is taking place there. It’s freaking Sparta, Illinois. Don’t hold major events in the middle of nowhere. I like trap shooting, but not that much. It honestly sounds awful. And when shooting is complete, you are free to sit around bored or go explore the local Walmart. Shoot me, please. Want people to show up to an event? Hold it somewhere easily accessible, with fun stuff to do/see. You have 2,000 sportsman as a captive audience. Combine it with other things as another poster mentioned. Food, bands, retriever trials, off road races. There are literally unlimited possibilities. If you want people to come it has to be FUN. Fun. As in enjoyable. You couldn’t pay me to sit at some God forsaken trap range in the middle of nowhere for a day, let alone 11 days. You need activities other than trap shooting, social events, entertainment. What I have seen and read about the Grand sounds like misery.

 

That all sounds very nice and I could go for that but try putting a shooting range like Sparta within 50 miles of anything close to civilization now a days and see if you can get it done. Hell everyone wants to shut down clubs with 2 traps if they are within ear shot range and shoot 1 day a week and have been there for 70 years.

 

The Cardinal Center is on interstate 71 about 20 miles north of the Columbus beltway, the Capital of Ohio. Mather Lands of Sports, the old Illinois state grounds, were in Springfield, the state Capital. The CC was planned after the ATA move to Sparta. It depends on the state and how gun friendly they are. Brad

 

There are a million and one excuses for the WSRC being located in Sparta, Ill , obviously they forgot to tell the shooters of the problems in having a trap club closer than 50 miles away from a major city or even a not so major city like Sparta ... Trap shooters have evolved over the years, no more sleeping in their car, pissing in the bushes, like they did back when Vandalia got started ... Sparta is not, was not, and never will be anything short of a piss poor decision with regard to the location ... If the attendance over the past 13 years does not tell you that you are not smart enough to own and or operate a gun and should never be given a sharp knife for your steak ... If not for the ATA, the signature sponsors and associate sponsors there would not be any more shooting other than drive bys going on in Sparta, Ill ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Where does the majority of the profits from shoots at the CC go to? The OSTA or the owner of CC? Just asking.

 

What does it matter where the profits from the CC go, the point is the facility is well maintained and new buildings and other things are being added. The CC has many large well maintained shoots each year. Again who really cares where the profits go it still costs money to pay employees to run shoots and maintain the facilities. Again just my opinion.

 

Mike J.

Surely you jest , the profits should logically go to the person or persons who built is, maintain it, operate it, own it, why in the world would the net profits go to any one other than that, after taxes of course ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

That has to be number one for the stupidest question award this year ... Think before you ask and then do not try doing it when you are trying to walk at the same time ... Some people cannot walk and think at the same time, possible award for that one also based on a few of your questions .... We Love ya man ... IT DON"T ...

 

So why does it matters who own the splendid Sparta facilities? I guess it is of no concern to you.

 

I went to the Grand this year with a friend of mine from DE and he went the first year it opened and it was crowded because everyone wanted to see the new complex. He asked me to bring my Handicap automotive tag so we could get a better parking space because he thought it would be very crowded and hard to find a space. I told him I have been every year and the crowds are not there like they thought it would be. He was very surprised to see the low turnout of shooters compared to Vandalia and the motel he found was 45 miles from the shoot. The motel told him they were only about 20 miles from Sparta and I think that will be his last trip unless he buys a motor home. He also had an experience with the squads he was in, he was told they were full and each day he ended up being the lead off from post 2 , 3 , 4 and 5 .

 

bob lowman,
I had the same experience with squads. I only signed up on full squads. The first five events I shot were two and three man squads. I ask why and was told by one of the people working at squading, they pre-squad and then do not either show up or decide not to shoot , then do not have the courtesy to toss the positions back in. I have a definition I use for then, It is inconsiderate S.O.B.'S. It is not the ATA's fault.
Mike J, Why is it anyone's business where the profits from a privately owned enterprise goes. We are customers, we pay our money, we receive services for our money. After that it is no concern of ours. Roger C.
s. e

 

Roger, it matters in terms of how much money is returned to the sport. If it's totally profit oriented, less money will show up for purses. Don't expect the ATA to put up big money at the CC.

I would like to see the ATA put even more money than the two $30,000 high gun purses at the Grand. Not sure why the ATA needs $16 million in net assets, as I believe they have now.

 

Mike J,
Think about that for a minute (Cash Cow) and I'm sure you can come up with the answer as to why they need $16 M in assets (Cash Cow) , so they can provide for the Good Ol' Boys club and the expenses of ... The ATA cries poor like the Ghetto Rats then eat steak and Lobster drinking on the members money ... They are like Whores who can't get enough ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Mike J,

I was surprised to see the two $30,000 options in this year's Grand. It was only a couple years ago our ATA leadership was in agreement with Executive Director Gipson's report:

"It doesn't appear that added money affects attendance."

"It's interesting to note that on the previous 8 years, the year with the most added money (2012) was the year of least shooters classified. It is recommended that the ATA not add money in 2016. It's a poor investment."

"Declining participation in options is universal in the sport and the Grand is no exception. I don't believe that this is our fault, nor do I believe there's much we can do about it. The focus is shifting away from monetary possibilities to the social and achievement aspects of the sport. We can't "buy" a crowd with added money - the return on investment is not acceptable. Investment in evening activities (social) and trophies (achievement), particularly at the World Championship tournament is a better investment. We should consider all additional opportunities to promote social activities and recognitions. Recommend that we add evening social (snack and refreshment) events on Prelim Wednesday and Thursday."

You do raise an interesting question regarding the ATA's financials. The ATA has done a good job of increasing their profits, especially in those years of declining participation.

One would think our ATA would provide the membership with their future plans for the ever-increasing assets.

One would think our Board of Directors would ask this question. Perhaps its a secret plan provided on a "need-to-know basis" and the membership just doesn't need to know.

I see no reason why a master plan into the future would not be posted on the website for all to see.

HB

 

HB, HB, HB, you know the Ass Holes running the ATA as well as I do, do you really think they care?

 

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

HB, Sure glad you said this in jest !

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

One secret SOCIETY, when it comes to the EC...

Example: PULL LLC vs 2012 PULL LLC

And they wonder why we Common members (Used to be) just don't care any more ???

 

HB,

It looks to me like the EC & ED has provided their plan for the future.

"The focus is shifting away from monetary possibilities to the social and achievement aspects of the sport. We can't "buy" a crowd with added money - the return on investment is not acceptable. Investment in evening activities (social) and trophies (achievement), particularly at the World Championship tournament is a better investment. We should consider all additional opportunities to promote social activities and recognitions. Recommend that we add evening social (snack and refreshment) events on Prelim Wednesday and Thursday."

And the best part is the ED comment: "I don't believe that this is our fault, nor do I believe there's much we can do about it.".

The three blind mice - the BOD, the EC and the ED. And for you who remember the story of the three blind mice, you know they had their tails cut-off.

 

HB, it is a shame the Executive Director can write that nonsense and get away with it. I hope the Martins are having a big say in how things are run. With that much net assets they should not be worry about losing $7,000 on the High Gun options as N1HI seemed to have cared. As some are saying here they need to tell the membership what the future plans are that they need to keep $17 million (yes it is one more million when I checked today) in net assets. I don't believe moving from Sparta is in the future plans. Could they possibly be thinking about buying over the facilities from the IDNR?

 

Clueless Mike

The IDNR does not own land.
There are no states that sell their land to preferred buyers. Any sale would go to highest bidder. One Illinois politician tried selling a political seat. He is in prison. He was also the founder of Sparta.

I hope the Sparta experience continues. You guys deserve it.

 

The WSRC is a State Park owned and operated by the State of Illinois (IDNR) the ATA obviously has some sort of a short term lease agreement for certain shoots ... The existence of the WSRC was costing the State of Illinois (adding to the deficit) on an annual basis even though the ATA was and obviously is profiting by the agreement, the land cannot be sold, unless that has changed with all of the financial problems the State of Illinois has experienced over the who knows how many years ... Two years (maybe 3 ?) ago the State parks were in need of repairs totaling 9 million dollars and the State said they could not afford to make the repairs ... I don't know if anyone knows if or when the State of Illinois has had a balanced budget ... I lost interest so I have not checked to see how much the facility costs the State even with the offset paid in for the agreement they have with the ATA , it used to be a line item on the annual reports that showed the add to the deficit which was running about 1.2 to 1.7 million per year after all was said and done ... The State at one time claimed the facility cost 3 million plus to operate annually ( this figure is from a few years ago), not sure what it is now ... The State of Illinois could and would shutter it tomorrow with no explanation like they did in the past, not sure the ATA would have any recourse ... Time will tell ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I'm shocked!....SHOCKED!....that a government entity could be so mismanaged by officials elected by responsible taxpayers!! How could this happen? Regards, Ed

 

When did they closed Sparta in the past? I understand (which could be hearsay) that the ATA has a 20 year contract with an option to buy the facility after that.

 

Really? For a while I thought you may be a trapshooter. Thanks for clearing that up.

Again....thanks for providing proof you are not even halfway knowledgeable about Sparta/WSRC etc.

 

Felon Blagojevich and WSRC founder enjoys snack nights in the prison.

 

Which ATA shoot was cancelled because of the "shut down"? Come on now let's hear it.

 

Since the kids are FORCED to join the ata I would think their Championships would be an "ata" shoot.

The World Shooting and Recreational Complex (WSRC) located in Sparta, Illinois, has been home of the SSSF National Championships for the last several years. Due to the unresolved statewide budget issues in Illinois, the state-owned WSRC remains closed at this time with no communicated schedule for reopening. The SSSF board of directors and senior leadership team have evaluated different options to keep the event in Sparta. Due to the continued unresolved budget situation and potential for government-mandated continued closure, the Foundation feels it is in the best interest of its members to provide certainty for the 2016 National Championship event.

"The Foundation has entered into a one year agreement with the Cardinal Center Campground and Shooting Center to host the 2016 National Championships. The Center has 52 trap fields, 3 sporting clays courses, and rifle and pistol range construction is well underway. Several large-scale infrastructure projects are commencing at the center to accommodate the multiple shooting disciplines the SCTP and SASP championships bring. These projects include construction of 14 new skeet fields and 14 new action shooting bays which are scheduled to be completed well prior to the championships in July."

Of course that one year agreement part turned out to be not true. HA!

 

The father and face of the wsrc

 

Who said an ATA shoot was shutdown?

The SCTP National College Championship Tournament was shut down without much warning when the place was shuttered. The SCTP was bailed out by the Cardinal Center.

Mike, feel free to search some of these issues on the forum. Use the search box top right. Also, see the pictures I took for the College Championship. You will see they were at the Cardinal Center.

 

It was built on the site of a former strip mining operation. Hence the "middle of nowhere".