Sparta experience

Just returned from the Grand and I would like to share my opinion of the affair with all of you shooters.
The help was very good relating to the field help. The scorers were better than past years and respectful.
The roads were fixed and in good shape.
The maintenance on the place, regarding the machines and facilities was terrible. The men's rest rooms were filthy. Three years ago and again last year I reported that the seat in the handicap stall in the last vendor building was detached from the toilet. This year I checked the stall and found crap all over the seat and wall. It looked like someone fell of of the toilet.
Many of the machine never threw good targets because of no maintenance. This was for the whole shoot not just one day. Bank 14 did not function until the last day of the shoot. Bank 17 field A and D did not throw decent targets for the last 5 days. Most of this was from bad brushes and broken targets, and no targets when called for. I shot with a state delegate and he told me the machine were bad on bank 17, for the whole week.
When going to the GRAND one expects it to be a grand experience not to shoot the poorest target of the year. I watched one of the target setters stand on the 23 yd. line with the radar gun to set the doubles target speed. I do not think this is the recommended way of setting any target.
This was my 40th year of attending the Grand, but It will most likely be the last. I can shoot local shoots all year for the$4000.00 plus it costs me to attend the Grand, and then to not have a pleasurable time is just not worth the time and experience.
Roger C.

 

I had a great experience! Cardinal road was not as bad as I heard on this site and the half mile portion that needs fixing is budgeted by Sparta for repairs. The shoot was well run and the attendance was good. Most last events started around 4:00 pm and the last squad shot in difficult light. Not sure why people bitch about the attendance.

The indoor toilets were cleaned multiple times per day and the outdoor toilets were pumped at least every other day. I think it was done daily during Grand week.

There were broken targets and it seems some machines need maintenance. However, they were fixed when problems arose but did back up the squads a bit which was welcome in some cases so you can get a break from the heat. Overall the weather was good except the day it rained almost whole day. The management made the right decision to cancel the Champion of Champions and push the doubles to the next day.

The announcer for the Blue/Gray shootoff needs training on how to use a microphone. The silent auction was a big confusion at the end and could be run better. My biggest problem was cashiering. If you paid daily you do not get a total of all your payments to that point. You only get each day’s amount so you have to add up all the slips which seems to be printed on toilet paper because the ink fades if you keep the bill in your pocket. The other problem is once you paid you cannot add options. I paid for the Grand American Handicap on Thursday and wanted to play the $30,000 option on Friday after I felt good in that day’s handicap but was told once you pay you cannot add options. To me this is BS since the event did not start until the next day. I understand that you cannot get back you money if you paid for an event and choose to not shoot it, but being unable to add more options is another story! The ATA could have gotten at least one more sucker to pay into the pot. Glad I didn’t play after my final shoot even though I was in the 90s.

I’ll be back to shoot in the greatest event on earth!

 

Mike, You were apparently at a different shoot than I was. The handicap stall has been broken for three years. After the ATA was notified of the problem. The plumber was in the rest room for a leak and did nothing about the toilet. If you were handicapped you would feel a little different about the maintenance of the rest rooms. There was NO santitation papers seat covers to be found in any rest rooms.
If the problems were fixed as they arose why were so many fields the same way every day? I was in the trap machine business for over 25 years and most of those machines needed routine maintenance. When you see two or more good targets and then one that is low and short, the arm is dirty and needs cleaned. or the brush is not properly seating the target. This was a very common problem on the machines, and a simple fix. We had at least 20 no targets on 17-D along with many broken targets. They were in the trap house two times. One time they said the targets were not dropping, the other they said nothing was wrong with the machine, we knew that was not correct. They also said the voice calls were not hooked up properly, that was not the problem.
You are spot on about the money and options. Last year I paid for all of my targets up front, I could not shoot 7 of the events,because of health problems, I was told no refunds for any reason. You should be able to add option up to the starting time listed in the program,that is a dumb rule that is not shooter friendly.
Mike you can get a printout of you daily squads and scores and paid for events at the payoff location. Also your scores shot are listed on the same sheet. To add an option you can only cancel your spot and re squad then add the options that you want. Roger C.

 

I just got off of the phone with a friend who went to the grand for his last time, he more or less echoed what Roger said and was upset because there were no "ass gaskets" or toilet paper in any of the stalls ... He said the stalls were so filthy he saw more than one guy piss in the sinks rather than even go into the stalls ... He usually signs up for all of the events he is going to shoot but quit doing that because of the no refund policy or being able to add or subtract options ... I guess he only shot one event and did some shopping while hoping to find a few friends ... He said there were not a lot of people, total entry's were around 20,000 for the whole shooting match and the camp grounds were no where near full, only ran into 3 people he knew from previous years ... He said the best entertainment of the week was watching the young man break 100 straight in the GAH ... Boy, am I glad I didn't bother again .... lol ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Maybe I am off base here but I would think that if I were hosting the Biggest, Longest running Trap Shoot on earth, I would see to it that ALL the brushes and arm rubbers were changed BEFORE the shoot get's under way.

For the money that is claimed to be made each year, surly the ATA could spend some so Everyone had equally thrown targets.

I know some 10 and 12 hole clubs that go out of their way with Preventive Maintenance when they host larger than normal shoots at their facilities. I just cannot imagine the ATA couldn't spend a week ahead of the Grand American shoot, preparing the machines properly.

Yes, I serviced the old Winchester carasol machines for many years for our local clubs, and most always, even for league shoots with only 300 shooters, they would ask me to come to their club and rotate or change out the entrapment rubbers, and change the arms.

It didn't cost them a dime in my labor, as I would go out and teach some of the members the proper techniques while I was doing this.

Over time I didn't get asked as much because these members took it upon themselves to do it once they knew how, and what to look for..

These clubs took pride in their targets, and wanted shooters to return to shoot at their club again.

I hope the heads of the ATA may just step up to the plate, and see that these preventive things are done before the Grand each year.

 

After a dozen failed years, you would think the ATA could figure out there is much more of a problem than a few grumpy old men sad that "Vandaila" is for never more .....

How can you tell the same people who refuse to let go, that once trust is lost it is rarely regained, without everyone seeing it as personal attacks ??????

The poison pill of the "High Gun Purse" is going to add to the mistrust in the current leadership, even now including some very good shooters, by the purposeful deception .....

Use the "lead, follow, or get out of the way" resolution solving ..... the ATA leadership failed, the ATA leadership refuses to follow, so it is time for the ATA leadership to get out of the way .....

FWIW ..... when I see a experienced shooter trying to hold the ATA to a higher standard for all to benefit being viewed as anything more than helpful, it is a sad day for everyone who loves the Sport of Trapshooting .....

 

Does anyone know how many trap mechanics the ATA employs for the Grand weeks? Sounds like they need some more bathroom cleaners too.

 

iowa guy,

We need good leadership, with a published business plan that includes the membership on its advisory committee.
Good leadership is not learned sitting on a board as a yes man FOR ABOUT SIX YEARS waiting for your turn at the helm of any organization. The state delegates are the only road to purging the EC of the line of advancement. If there was an open election where the members judged the qualifications of the board members, by their actions as leaders. We could have a viable organization. The good ole boys club is not doing the job of running the organization for the benefit of the members. Keep in mind, no organization is any better than the members that belong to it. They must police the leaders constantly. Roger C.

 

I agree with Roger. Went for the first and LAST time this year. NEVER AGAIN !
It was like HELL without the flames !!!
Like the OLD saying---Kick me once--Shame on you !!
---Kick me twice--Shame on ME !!

 

Roger:

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. Sorry it was not a good one.

The Pat Traps are a little more complicated in my experience. They also can be kept up. I have been to other large venues where they run problem free. I have been to other venues where the difference is obvious. I am sure you have as well.

There are only two suspects in my view. One suspect is the knowledge of the mechanics. The other is the unwillingness of the venue to spend the funds before the shoot. It can be a combination of the two.

I always thought one purpose of the US Open would be to assist in getting the bugs out. I guess that is just my view of how things should work.

I did not attend this year. I was there last year and saw some lack of trap maintenance then.

If a poster here says the last event started at 16.00 and some shooters shot in less than good light; things are different than the last two years. Handicap shoot offs were called in good light both weeks. The time difference suggest to me more trap problems were going on in other banks.

 

Par4,
The pat's are not more complicated than any other traps. They are inferior to them. The carrier rails are way to short., They are a surge fire machine, when the motor fires up it pushes the arm over center to fire the machine. This is a built in serious flaw, that is a design flaw. All good machines have a release solonoid to fire the machine this is how to get an instant release of the target.
The lack good mechanics is also a problem for them.
I would have loved to seen the specifics of the deal that was to good to pass up when those machines were purchased with out competitive bids. Sounded then like a sweet heart deal, wonder who received the most benefits from it? We are stuck with them now and it looks like forever.
The slightest breeze affects their targets more than any other machine on the market. The rubber bands are not as effecient as a main spring. Many things have to work together to throw a good consistant target. The old X1524 was the best target presenter ever in a trap house, the super star was next best. Both are history. Roger C.

 

Roger:

You obviously have more mechanic know how than I. I find the Pat Trap complex. A guy with no more mechanical ability than I could take care of a Winchester hand set. They were easy. You did not need a help line or a manual.

 

Par4, My company was the mfgr. dist. for the Remington machines, imported the GMV Super Star, made a duplicate of the X1524, Made parts for many other mfgr's. We rebuild every machine on the market. I do have a little knowledge of the best machines and how they all work, and what ones have the best target presentations. Roger C.

 

Sorry I cannot be the bearer of terrible news. I shot with many squads on both the east and west banks. NO ONE complained and I spoke to many many people. Yes, on the eastern banks the targets were set generally high but was lower immediately if a squad requested. Communication was excellent and a trap mechanic arrived within 2 minutes of a request. I believe the trap setter on the eastern banks was inexperienced. One problem is that they do not use the height sticks to set the targets, they only use the radar gun and visual on the height. An inexperience person cannot judge the correct height by sight alone. NY uses both the radar gun and height sticks to set targets, they should do this at the GRAND.

The last events started around 4 pm mainly because of the turnout, not bad machines. However, some banks were constantly the last to get finished because those were the “chosen banks” where the hot shots shoots and it looks like they had more squads to carry. These banks caused some delay in starting the next event but it was not a big deal because people wanted a break anyways.

The weather was relatively nice, the grass was green and the trees are now providing some shade along with the white flyer tents. Each bank has a place to sit and relax and some have covered sitting area.

I have no complaints because I know how difficult it would be to run such a large event. Overall they did a good job. I WIIL BE BACK AT THE GREATEST SHOOT ON EARTH!

 

My limited experience with the bathrooms at the Grand was not an issue. The targets were set well on banks 8 through 11 that I shot during the Grand week. There was a good south wind that made shooting tolerable, but I am from Alabama so the temperature was mild to my usual standards. This was my 10th year in a row & I will be back next year. Tim Hall

 

Roger:

I never doubted your ability to look at targets and know there is a problem. I never doubted you knew more than the guy on the golf cart with a tool bag. Why Pat Traps are not capable of better presentation when all is correct? It seems to me you have a handle on their built in shortcomings.

 

Merlo took pictures at the U. S. Open. He was obviously truthful. But, the IDNR said the place would be maintained at minimum standards. Quit, the gee I am surprised crap.

 

Mike:

Check your program for the last two years and compare to the numbers this year. Someone here has already told us words to the effect the 30K guaranteed purses failed to have a significant impact on attendance. Did you not see that? Did you see it and mistakenly believe you could still make catfish fly?

Let us examine some numbers:

The 2017 CTC had 2049 entries. The 2018 CTC had 2081.

The 2017 Doubles Championship had 1624 entries. The 2018 number was 1661.

The Preliminary Handicap had 1984 entries in 2017. The 2018 figure was 2042.

The GAH had 2009 entries in 2017. The GAH entries were 2037 this year.

Those numbers indicate the attendance difference equates to less than one additional squad per bank when spread across all banks this year. How much extra time is needed for one full squad per bank to complete a singles or handicap event shooting over four traps Mike? How much extra time is needed for one full squad per bank to complete a doubles event when shooting over two traps? Now are you going to repeat the assertion that attendance was the difference in shooting in decent daylight or poor light? I thought not.

If attendance had skyrocketed in 2018; do you think N1H1 needs more time to prepare and post the graph?

 

I went to the Grand for a day. Don't have a camper, and couldn't find a motel within "Reasonable" distance. I drove over from Indiana spent the day then drove over to St. Louis where I have friends who I went out to dinner with, then a night in the hotel. Next morning drove back to Indiana.

I guess the biggest complaint is - an nothing that can be done about it - is the place is too big. I made the Grand in Vandalia every year and stayed a few days. All I had to do to find friends is ride the wagons and I would see somebody then hop off and talk. I don't hate Sparta it is just different.

The problem is the state - owns the property, and nobody is going to go out of there way to promote something that is not in their vested interest.

Southern Illinois is big duck hunting, goose hunting area, on the Mississippi flyway. Why not try and tie the Grand into a celebrations of all shot gunning sports? Why not have dog trials, retrieving contest go on during Grand? And with all the side by side ATVS why wasn't there one dealer set up selling ATVs?? Or did I miss that? To me there just is no buzz about the Grand in Illinois, compared to Dayton. Hell I went by the beer tent in Sparta and not one person was there at 3pm. WTF??. You need to get those people out of their campers and up at the beer tent or vendors row and make it look like there is some LIFE IN THE EVENT. Currently most time it looks like an effing ghost town.

Will we ever get 4 or 5 thousand shooting the GAH again, probably not, but dam we should do better than 2K. I've shot Fl chain in winter to Michigan in summer, Pennsylvania to Las Vegas, and all points between, and they all seemed to have - ?????? something that is missing in Sparta, and I don't know what the heck it is - but remember it is - not the steak but the sizzle, and it ain't the song but the singer. Showing up to shoot at Sparta is like going to give a urine sample at the doctors office, you walk into a room - pee in a jar by yourself , shove the sample through a trap door, then go home and wait for the results. LOL Not much social interaction there.

 

Elsie said it all IMO.
Trap isn't the Fellowship game it once was.
I stopped shooting in the late 80's due to a Family crisis and didn't return till the mid 2000s.
It all changed since then. Many shooters I remember and was friends with are gone or no longer shoot.
Everything is rush, rush. Shoot, go home.
The kids seem to have the most fun. Be nice if they stay but if 10% stay that's probably a miracle. Oh well, I guess that's what they call memories.


Regards....Gerald

 

Par4
The $30,00. AND $60,000. guaranteed purses, were not an enticement for the average shooter, that understood the WORDS HIGH GUN. Any one that was not capable of shooting 100,99,or a 98 had no business entering that purse. I heard that there was $43,000. paid in by shooters, the ATA added enough to total $60,000. to meet the guarantee. The problem is not with the guarantee, it is with the words high gun. The average shooter was out of the money after missing 4 targets. Does this sound like an enticement for the average shooter? Not in my book. Roger C.

 

Roger, wasn't an average shooter that shot the 100 in the GAH?? If they had allowed me to add to my options I would have played on Saturday given my performance on Friday and the fact that I was feeling good about my handicap shooting. I agree that my chances would be less than the top shooters but it's my money and my choice. If you consider the chance of winning the lottery you will never play it. You have a better chance of winning the GAH than the lottery.

 

Mike J, You are correct it is your money. But from experience if you do not have a handicap average of at least 92%, you are wasting your money. You talk about a chance, but you never mentioned the odds. With 2000+ shooters, where do you set the line with the odds of you winning. The choice is yours, but you would get more enjoyment from a $35.00 age rib eye steak.
How many scores of 98 or better have you posted in handicap? Then add the pressure of it being the Grand American handicap, and tally up your chances of a win.
The shooters that were capable of hitting the money in those events did not have to add the option, they wrote a check for the full amount of the total shoot on the first day. That is where their confidence level is. They do not question their ability to win. Roger C.

 

who won the big money?

 

Roger, shooting in the GAH is not added pressure for me it makes me more determined. How many of the top well known shooters were got paid in events 23 and 24 for the $30,000 option? It is a chance for everyone.

 

Mike J ,
I am only relating to you the odds of ever cashing in on one of those options. The average shooter has two chance, a million to one and next to none. I.m not trying to throw a wet blanket over your actions, I'm just pointing out the odds.
My daughter has bought one ticket in the Ohio lottery from day one, and she still has hopes of winning. I hope she does.
If you ever get down to the last 10 targets with out a miss, I will bet you feel a little pressure. Roger C.

 

Roger, I shot a 97 in handicap at least 6 times. Never a 98 or higher. I tend to do better in my later rounds. I shot many 100s in singles. Note that the 3 100s in events 23 and 24 did NOT play the $30,000 option so there are many that think like you. Guess they are kicking themselves now!

 

Here is the summary of the paid attendance at the 2018 Grand. Looks like a success to me. These numbers are a little more than the respective event numbers on the trophy report, the difference being the ones who withdrew and lost their money, I BELIEVE.

 

I can do a chart for you hope you can understand it. The assumptions here are the singles and handicap squads take 20 minutes to finish their first trap and 27 banks are used and the doubles squads take 30 minutes to finish their first trap and 54 banks are used. You will see the third event starts at 4 pm on Aug 4 and Aug 5. Let me know if you need help understanding the maths but it may cost you if I have to charge my hourly rate LOL

 

Mike J.

According to your numbers the IDNR would of collected $96,634.00 (30,878 entry's @ $3.00 = $92, 634) which is not a dent in what it cost the State of Illinois to keep the WSRC operational on an annual basis … They can't revert to volume because they can't draw a crowd … WSRC is a born loser … WPT … (YAC) …

 

I don't believe that's the only fee the ATA pays the IDNR. But I think I am missing your logic.

 

Did anyone else notice the quantity of 27 yard shooters, Highest I ever seen, those xxxxx Targets added a lot, but not GOOD shooters.

If there was a 90% requirement average, there would have been a 75% Decrease of them.

GB................................DLS

 

Mike J,
Before I was told by the ATA that I had to shoot as an industry rep. I played all of the options. many of the shoot programs posted how much it would cost to shoot all of the targets and played all of the options. I always wrote the check for all. Shot over 100,000 handicap from the 27yd. line. Broke many 99, 98 , 97, but no 100's, very few options were high gun back then. We had some very high paying calcutas, back then, some had over $50,000.00 in them. That was when $50,000.00 was a lot of money. I'm no pilgrim at shooting for money, and cars.
At 81 years young I also know what my limitations are, so I do not try to beat the elite of today. Roger C.

 

I guess it would ...... when you total the "entries" for a "total number of shooters" ...... ol'N1H1 has taught you well .....

 

Don't quit your day job ........ because "maths" seems a little over your head ......

 

LOL. If I had a problem in maths I would be fired from my day job where I work as an engineer overseeing multi billion $ capital budgets.

 

Perhaps the ata should hire you to help. Someone with your qualifications might be able to tell them how to get more people to show up at
that place in IL.

 

Good luck being unemployed, because If one(1) shooter enters ten(10) events, it IS NOT a "total" of "10 shooters" ......

Maybe your current, may soon to be past, employer needs to check your "maths" skills .....

 

Oh boy!! In post #28 I clearly stated "paid attendance" and showed the "number of shooters" on an event basis. Where is the problem??

 

Not that it should matter to a know-it-all like you ......

"ATTENDANCE" ...... "the number of people present at a particular event, function, or meeting." ...... https://www.google.com/search?q=attendance definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

The "number of PEOPLE", NOT the number of times they entered an event ol'N1H1 JR ...... I guess all 30878 "total paid attendance" rented all 1001 campsites so there would only be around 30 at each site ......

 

Sorry, I cannot help your comprehension. Not sure how Joe made you a moderator, but it is what it is.

 

Good luck at your day job ...... you will need luck if they track your "social media" posting "maths" skills ......

 

Mike J.

The ATA also made a package deal with the IDNR on the camping, buy low sell high kind of deal ... I am not aware of how much they paid and or charged because I lost interest in it a long time ago ... The ATA can obviously be very creative on ways to rip off the Membership, rather than promote the sport of trap shooting ... The shooters pay $3.00 per event, so the total number of entry's x's $3.00 would be the gross for the IDNR plus any of the other incidentals the ATA is involved in ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

How many here thinks that entire $30,000 purse should be won by one person even if a shoot off is necessary? I think that would be a bigger draw.
BTW, I think this was a good option by the ATA even though they lost $7,000 because it could have attracted more shooters who paid the $35 and maybe played other options also. In the big picture it could be a win overall.

 

According to the numbers you posted it drew an additional 37 shooters for the GAH … Typical cluster F XXX brought to you by the new and improved ATA … WPT … (YAC) …

 

WPT, who knows the numbers this year might have been much lower if not for the options. The ATA should have a marketing department to survey those who shot the Grand. They could do it by an online questionnaire. I would gladly answer any survey to make the sport better.

 

Mike J,
You are spot on about a marketing plan. I have been advocating for a viable business plan for at least 15 yrs. One that would include the membership as more than piggy banks. I do not think that will happen as long as the EC holds all of the reins to the running of the organization. We have got to stop electing the ball less men, to the BOD. They are being used the same as the members. They see the carrot, but can not kiss enough back side to ever achieve there goal.
The EC does not want any help with the running of the ATA, their only interest seems to be a bottom line, that is not how a membership organization that is tax exempt is supposed to function. Restitution weather under the table, or over the table, is a no no, for the volunteers the sit on a board in a non profit organization. Pull 2012 must have known that, and the group as a whole must have known about the deal. I guess there is a business plan, we just do not have access to the wording in it. Roger C.

 

Roger, the thought occurred to me while at Sparta that if the EC would be really interested in making the shoot bigger. The Grand week event days were full and I guess tiresome for administrators. The Clay target championship shootoff lasted until midnight on Thursday....I stayed until the last shot.

I believe that if anything they might be interested in making the GAH bigger since that is only one event on Saturday. That's why maybe they had the big money purse for the last event on Friday and the GAH on Saturday. Maybe they were trying to attract nearby shooters who wouldn't mind staying in a hotel for one night. Not surprising that those events had a large turnout but I guess the EC would like to have it to be larger. They need to survey people to find out what will attract them more on Saturday. I think a $30,000 payout for one top winner who choose to bet might be a more attractive option for shooters. Just my thoughts.

 

If some of you non ATA haters want to see a positive report on the 2018 Grand, instead reading the tripe and nonsense posted here by the usual suspects, Stan Baker of Hunt The Rackett has posted a 45 minute feature about The Grand on YouTube. I would provide a link, but I seem to recall the mods here get there panties in a wad if prior permission is not obtained for posting links. Baker always puts on decent videos, perhaps a little hammy, but enjoyable. I am it will sure draw anger and hatred for my mentioning it.

 

Haters
Tripe
Nonsense
Usual suspects
Panties in a wad
Draw anger and HATRED

Come down of the cross an quit acting like a martyr. I watched it. I'm still not driving 10 hours to go to that place in IL.
Watcha got next to convince me and the other 2,000+ that used to shoot the GAH event to go there?
I don't have to "Hunt the RACKET". I already know where the biggest racket is.

 

Mike J,
I have been around the game for a long time, the EC wants no change in the way they handle the running of the ATA, any change would cut into their power. That is a NO-NO as far as far as they are concerned. After all in their minds they are headed in a fantastic direction. Roger C.

 

Mike J:

Let me make this a little more KISS so you can understand.

In the first post, Roger indicated he witnessed problems with trap machines.

Later, you indicate you did not experience trap machine problems. You go on to add you noted some shooting in less than good light. You attribute the less than good light anomaly to attendance.

Now, I was at Sparta in 2017. I did not witness the less than good light problem last year. I indicate in a logical progression that if Roger witnessed problems with trap machines and you witnessed shooting in events taking place in poor lighting; there might have been more problems with machines on additional banks other than attendance being greater. Attendance was not greater by any significant number.

My reference to a prior comment in another thread about the carrot in front of the donkey option dealt with attendance. The important aspect is attendance and not the option. You might have been able to pick up a little about attendance other than your own opinion from the reference to attendance in connection with the option.

The attendance at Sparta is not great in my view. I suspect you were there for the first time and observed many human beings there. If my suspicion is correct; this must account for your neglect to look at 2017 attendance numbers. If my suspicion is incorrect; it looks like you want to be deceptive. I would take ignorant over deceptive but an engineer may be more inclined to prefer being considered deceptive.

The bottom line is attendance was not a factor in poor light affecting some shooters. Poor trap preparation is high on the list of suspects. You seem to think the traps were not responsible. You have only offered attendance as your theory as to light conditions.

Now we turn to the “success” of the 2018 Grand. If you meant you observed the most shooters you ever saw at a trap shoot you attended and nobody got shot; it was a success.

 

Par4,
When they had to cancel the doubles event due to bad weather it made them throw 3 events the next day. That may have been the reason for the bad light. Couple that with machine problems and some people had to shoot in bad light. I do not remember the shoot running late into the evening.
The attendance at Sparta is dismal at best. I was told by a resident that there is not an upscale restaurant within 50 miles of Sparta, And I am inclined to agree with him. I have attended every Grand at Sparta along with the first US open. The services in the area have declined a little every year, I'm not just talking about the grounds.I am referring to the entire area around Sparta. It is OK if you travel in a motor home, you bring every thing you will need with you, mainly a nice home away from home.
I doubt if the attendance will ever equal the shooters that went to Vandalia. Many of them have given up on registered shooting, and many on shooting in general. With the facilities in Ohio & Pa. why drive to Sparta, when the experience of being there is dismal.
On a personal note, it costs me about $4000.00 to $5000.00 to attend the Grand for 10 days. I can shoot 3 satalite Grands for the same amount of cash outlay if I stay out west. This year was my 40th year of grand attendance, most likely my last also. Roger C.

 

Oh there's more than one that sit and watch. Some of them even post here under a different name. Hell, if it wasn't for us the one half wit wouldn't have anything to post over there.
He still thinks there is only one guy using multiple names. You have to be a booger eating moron to post that. Then again, he does use his IQ as part of his name so you kinda have to feel sorry for the guy.

 

Maybe we can bait them …. WPT … (YAC) ...

 

You don't even have to post a picture. All you have to do is tell them the truth and they flip out.

For instance,
The ata moved what was once the greatest trapshooting event 368 miles and LOST around 2,000 shooters for the GAH event.

NOW, they have to deal with that mistake and don't have a clue, look at the lousy numbers, about how to correct it. All the PR bull and DONATED MONEY can't fix it and they are screwed.

"It's still the grand"
"We know it's not even close to being grand anymore but we have to say that or it looks like we agree with you guys"

"It's the greatest event in the best place in the world"
"Sure we know it's not anymore and the location sucks"

"Maybe it's not perfect but it's all we have so..."
We know it was a bad move and that state knows it was a bad move on their part but what the hell can we do about it?"

"If you don't like it don't go"
" We didn't think it would matter. We were WRONG but we sure as hell can't admit that can we?"

"It's Ohio's fault they HAD to move"
" We have to blame someone."

"We don't need all those OH. and PA. shooters, the numbers will be the same or even better"
" OK, the numbers are WAY,WAY below what we thought they would be. We didn't realize you all were serious about not going if they moved it to that place."

" It's the economy"
" Again, we have to blame SOMETHING. Yeah, we know you can't find a parking space close to a casino but it HAS to be the economy. It can't be that location out in BFE could it?"

It takes a special kind of stupid to make those BOLD statements when you know they are all BS

 

Flyer,

"Management's attitudes can play a significant role in an organization's growth or decline. Negative attitudes tend to create a negative environment, within and outside the organization.

• Closed-mindedness, stemming from a reliance on tradition or history rather than real data. This leads to a “near disdain” for learning because minds are shut off to new ideas. In other words, if management has always done things a certain way and refuse to look at other options, it may be a signal that attitude is moving the organization in the wrong direction.
• Certain groups or individuals receiving favor in compensation and/or perks can lead to low morale and decline in the organization.
• Managers acting on what they think is best for the organization, while ignoring what their customers want.
• Those in charge become inwardly focused, which causes them to lose sight of the bigger picture, such as the goals of the organization. When this happens, they begin to blame others for the organization's decline, such as customers, competitors, market fluctuations, and other external forces.
• Being in denial.
• Not having a well thought-out business and strategic plan that is shared with all members of the organization.
• Not having stretch goals for the organization, supported by stretch goals for each member of the management team. Goals stating who is going to do what by when. Goals without accountability are worthless.

These attitudes and behaviors results in a lack of individual accountability and internal conflict. Management must take the first step to reverse the decline in an organization. Management has to be willing to take a good look at themselves to determine how their decisions and attitudes contributed to the decline."

Garry

 

Garry,
I have stated many times, No BUSINESS can stand still. it is either growing or it is declining. Management is to blame, or praised, for either way their business is moving. First they must be smart enough to see what is happening. This is not a new problem for the EC and BOD, it has been coming for about the last 15+ years. The members were thrown under the bus, and retaliated by not supporting an organization that treated them like step children.
The sorry fact is the shooters that do not now attend registered shooting are the big losers, the people that caused this are to dense to see what they have done, to a loved and respected sport. The present structure of the line of procession that is in place, I do not think it is possible to make the changes that would be necessary to rebuild the association.
Ignorance will prevail, when wise men do nothing to stop it. Roger C.

 

Roger, I agree.

 

Roger,

You might be correct but I just don't feel that the majority of shooters stopped attending the Grand in retaliation. I believe shooters were being honest when they answered ATA Survey question #4 & #7.

Certainly shooters from Ohio and Pennsylvania (Eastern Zone) continue to be blamed for the lack of GAH attendance, but they told the truth about the travel distance being excessive. ATA leadership failed to consider their response objectively.

#4 - If the Grand Moves To a Location That is Farther Away From You, How Would if Affect Your Attendance? Won't Attend

#7 - Why Do You Not Attend The Grand American? Too Far From Home

I was surprised that only 278 shooters from the Western Zone answered question #4. This is the group the leadership believed would make up the difference of any loss in attendance of those from the Central & Eastern Zones.

​

 

HB
I have a different take on the answer to that specific question. To some Ohioans, anywhere else was tooo far. To some PA shooters, anywhere else was tooo far. Especially when you consider the OSTA did much of the maintenance and paid for the fence that went around the place.

Also consider that they were not told to leave. Two miles was tooo far some Ohioans. Anywhere else was not Vandalia.

What is in an answer? It depends who is answering.

 

Dave Berlett did not bitch about his experience this year near as much as you have Roger. The young felllow shot very well on banks 14-17. Only notable complaint of his; easy targets. He even made the 27 yard line again. I drove 800 miles to compete in this years Grand American, I had a pleasant experience yet again. I've not missed a Grand American since 2000, although it may not be Vandalia, WSRC is still one of the premier shooting facilities in the country.

 

6th grade math says there were 2,500 other shooters that did not go. They did not bitch this year either.

 

azco, Have you ever been to Sparta, Ill.? If you have you must be used to living in a dump. It has no up scale places to eat or do anything else. If you consider a nice evening out, is going shopping at Walmart, you would love the place.
I just spent 11 days there, I do not have it to bad as we rent a Hunt Club, where we can relax and fish or roam around on the 13000 acres and look at wild life. I landed two large mouth bass that week. One was 22.5 inches and the other was 20.5 in length. Not many shooters and their families have it as nice .
I do not know anyone that hates the ATA. Many dislike the way the move was made, even after the members said not in ILL. many have no faith or trust in the EC, as they have not earned it. The shooters from Ohio, and PA. have 5 of the 6 biggest shoots in their back yards, where many can sleep at home and cut down on expenses. Remember both are blue collar states, money and vacation time is at a premium to them.
On a different note, are you sure Ben Avery is going to have someone to over see the registered shoots? I was told it is still very much up in the air about having them. The state lists two shoots, but I was told they may not happen. Roger C.

 

I see your sign on name is trap mechanic, If you are always there why not donate your services as a mechanic so all machines will work properly. You also do not know the difference between bitching and constructive criticism. I have been to 40 grands in my shooting carrier. I know when the sport started down hill, after you have another 22 attendance pins then you can brag. I never ever said it was not a very nice shooting place, it was just put in podunkville and even you must see the shooters have rejected the location, what do you attribute the lack of attendance to? Roger C.

 

Why would I donate my vacation time? If you have such experience with 42 Grand Americans why do I not see you volunteering your time to keep the facility running at 110%? You've participated in 13 years of Sparta Grand events and yet to donate any of your time to the complex, I doubt you've even picked up an empty water bottle. Dave Berlett picked up more trash that week than you ever considered to pick up. If you can not find the time to donate why don't you find a crew of guys from Arizona to prepare the facility? I donate my time to the Ohio and Pennsylvania gun clubs. I spoke with the head mechanic in Sparta, they do what they can to prepare the facility. He spent 2 weeks preparing; replacing brushes, sanding arms, lubricating traps, inspecting concrete structure, water retention, target quality and so on. I was assured the arms on each trap were sanded in the evenings prior each days end. Cardinal Center mechanics do not assure me that during the Tournament days. Bunch of drunks running that place, mechanic wise, imho. Attenedence was down at the Cardinal Classic and all Cardinal Center shoots, the place is hardly staying alive as we speak if it wasn't for your Hack Fishburn. Satelite Ohio State events after the old bastard dies, god rest his sole as he's done more for this sport than you have ever considered doing.

You're just another swinging never have been from Arizona.

 

The funny thing is all the bad talk about Sparta and yet all the top shooters from Ohio and Pennsylvania attend. What is it that they are missing?

 

How can someone be so uninformed? WoW!! Most of the top shooters in Ohio don't even shoot registered. At most 1 of 10 targets thrown are registered.

Both states have meat shoots with more shooters than the crap called grands in the south. What a dummy?

 

"All" do not "attend" ...... spend more time working on your "maths", and less time trolling, and you won't look as stupid as others who need to up their trolling game .....

 

trapmechanic,
You prattle on like a man with a paper a$$. You have posted 3 messages and all seem to have a bit of BS included in them. You have no idea what I have done for the trap shooting sport in my life time. I'm sure the maintenance people from Ohio know who you are, and I also hope they read your statement about them. If that was the best effort the Sparta people can muster, they should be replaced with capable help.If you think the machines at Sparta were in good condition, then you fit right in with the incompetent help they have.
David, is a fine gentleman, I have know him for 35+ years, We both like donuts.
NOW CRAWL BACK IN THE HOLE YOU ESCAPED FROM, YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE OF ASSOCIATING WITH HONORABLE MEN.
i'm sure the Sparta mechanics hold you in high respect for asking about their maintenance programs.Reread my first line in this post. You certainly fit the description. Roger C.

 

Can you provide the dummy with some names of your top shooters who don't shoot ATA? What are their averages?

 

What are their averages? LOL If you reread the post....they don't shoot registered targets. Hence no average. The live bird shooters don't have averages either.

And an fyi....I don't care about the Sparta issue.

 

They didn't shoot during the trap shooting heydays at Vandalia? What live bird shooting has to do with trapshooting which is being discussed here?

 

Ah......there it is. A sillier question. What does live bird shooting have to do with trapshooting. I am guessing in your world folks started of shooting clay targets and moved to live birds later. I am not sure why they call those clay targets birds on occasion. There is also the point you said 'top shooters".

That guy Dysinger did. Not sure if he was at Sparta.

 

I'm not to sure half of the shooters who get accused of being Sparta hater's could care less about Sparta or the ATA any more … The ATA boasts about promoting trap shooting when in fact they are the ones that run off the majority of shooters that left by their lack of promotion … There used to be a lot of Calcutta's in the Midwest with a lot of tough shooters who gave up on shooting registered for one reason or another, but never quit shooting the money shoots … West Chicago park district used to have a Calcutta about once a month and the place was jammed with top shooters, if you didn't enter early you didn't get in on it … The ATA is not and has not been the only game in town for a long time, their reputation drives people away not to them … What you see is what you get and that ain't nothing like it once was … WPT … (YAC) …

 

WPT, calcuttas are not allowed by the IRS. That's why the ATA cannot sanction them. However, there are cleaver ways around this which you might know of.

 

IRS regulates calcuttas? New agency duties. But, if you like sparta hang out there. Shoot there often. Like Flyer says "keep it there forever."

 

I believe because the revenues from Calcuttas are not recorded on the books so winner do not pay taxes on the winnings. Some here might be able to explain more.

 

What IRS code says no calcuttas?

Why should someone else explain more? It is your statement. There is a difference between "cannot" and "are not". Have fun at sparta. I am sure a few still go there.

 

Questions 4 and 7 huh?

They should rename 2 of the roads at that place. It would make it so much easier for the 2,050 shooters that shot the GAH event this year. JHC, only 2,050!

Hey greenwieny, where do you want to meet for Kool-Aid?

How about the corner of 4th and 7th?

 

Mike J, Why would the ATA be against calcuttas because of the non payment of taxes on the money? They all took restitution for their so called volunteer work. They never paid taxes on any of it.
All any club has to do is make sure that no money is retained by them from the money put in the pool by the calcuttas bidders. We at phoenix trap & Skeet always added money from the club to the pot. That way any audit would show no retension of funds. It was a gambling thing not a tax thing. Roger C.

 

The negativity about calcuttas usually comes from professional trinket shooters.

 

Roger, I understand that you are required to pay taxes on the money you earn through gambling so that's where the IRS comes in. I know major events where calcuttas are held but they are done " on the side" without the blessings of the ATA organization.

 

BTW, they now accept credit cards at the Grand to cover shooting fees. You still have to pay options by check or cash.

Nice to see them get rid of the 18 yds line and the money punch. Seems they are listening to us. They need to get rid of junior gold and sub vet, at least. Also, it is welcome to see the ATA website being more informative... they updated the Grand slam list.

 

I don't think posting that in cyber-land is going to gain you any "ATA Brownie points" ......

You must believe that the content in a post here is not viewed by anyone other than a few grumpy old men ......

 

Wow, we got rid of the 18 yd. line. Those incompetents really screwed up the handicap system with those frequent victories from that extremely short yardage say some. In reality, they're totally wrong. The Grand American handicap event had 1-18 yd. shooter in the top 25 scores while 12 shooters stood at the 27. So, in reality, we should say the 27 yd. shooters are screwing up the system-not the 18 yrdrs. That said, maybe we need to use the 17 yd. line again or move the 27 yd. shooters back. Pick your poison!

 

Be careful now, I resemble that remark.

 

Mike J may want to do a follow up post, to tell everyone in the unwashed masses why two different types of "payment" are "required" to enter a single event ......

 

LOL, looks like you been doing some research. Kudos to you. I seek no favors from Kool aid land. Remember I was banned for life for speaking out against the EC over there. I will never go back there even if the idiot from Montana wants to reinstate me. I say what's on my mind, if you don't get it by now. Nobody owns me.

 

Simple, options are returned to the shooters with no profit to the ATA. Payment by cc require some sort of fee.

 

Oleolliedog,
Lets face it, we need a 30 yard line, or wider angles, possibly both. Faster wider targets will hurt the least accomplished shooters more than the long yarders'
If the EC is listening, go back to the 3 hole angles, set the distance at 50 yds. +or- 2 yds., set the height with a pole at 8 to 10 ft.. Now this is going to be the hardest part for the EC. ENFORCE THE RULES AT ALL TIMES AT ALL REGISTERED EVENTS.
If they will do this, they will have a full house at the next Grand even in Sparta. Tell you employees, the BOD to get out to all clubs in their states and make sure the rules are followed. If they do not want to do this, tell them they must retire, and appoint some one who will. Roger Coveleskie

 

There is a "third party collection fee" when someone uses a credit card at a "business" .....

So, unless the ATA adds a "fee" to someone using a credit card for their "shooting fees", that person pays less "shooting fees" to the ATA than someone paying by cash or check ......

Good guess, but you are getting away from the "IRS" angle in your earlier posts ......

 

Roger, I know some guys at my club who joined the ATA last year and were all excited about shooting but cannot get their singles average up over 88. They are not enthusiastic about shooting now so making the targets more difficult might drive away more low end shooters.

 

Not sure what you talking about in relation to the IRS. The reason calcuttas are not sanctioned by the ATA is because the winnings are not reported so winners evade taxes. That's what I understand from speaking to high level officials. Maybe my interpretation is incorrect but I am willing to learn.

 

MikeJ, Tell those new shooters that no one starts off as a AAA shooter. It takes practice and many targets shot before getting good at the sport. Tell them do not compete with the top shooters, compete with them selves to break more than they ever have.
It should be of no concern to the ATA if a club wants to have a calcutta at their club. The payment of taxes is not in their area of concern. I'm sure if their was some way for them to profit from them they would be all for them. It is club business not theirs. We had one at the spring grand for years, they never said a word that we could not and the EC was always in attendance. Roger C.

 

Mike, shooting good scores require good fundamentals. Have these new ATA shooters watched the DVD's by Harlan Campbell Jr., Phil Kiner or Leo Harrison? If they haven't, that would be a good place to start. Averaging 88 from the 16 yard line suggest to me a problem with fundamentals, which include gun fit. Once the fundamentals are learned and practiced, then shooting good scores becomes at least 80% mental and some would say 90-95% mental.

The fundamentals should not be taken lightly, they are the foundation to build on. As their scores improves, so will their confidence.

Many of us older shooters cut our teeth on 3 hole 50-52 yard targets and they did not drive us away. They made us more determined to learn what it takes to shoot the good scores that others were shooting.

 

Roger/Garry, I totally agree with your advice on shooting. That's the way I do it and I am still learning. These guys are retirees who shot pistol most of their lives an started to shoot trap about 3 years ago. They took lessons from a known individual and think that was it. They want to shoot a 25 every time they shoot so they DO NOT PRACTICE to learn the fundamentals. They do not want to listen to advice because they think they know everything so there is nothing I can do.

Roger - From what I understand calcuttas cannot be sanctioned by the ATA so we should not blame the ATA for not "holding them." That said, from what I understand you a re correct that "It should be of no concern to the ATA if a club wants to have a calcutta at their club." The thing is there is a big restriction on mixing calcutta money with regular shooting fees and options...I am sure Brad knows about this. Anyways, in New York we started to hold a "special event" "on the side" for the Handicap Championship this year that many shooters like. It is not sanctioned by the New York ATA. Come shoot with us if you want to learn more about it

 

MikeJ, I helped run the event at the old Phoenix Trap & Skeet club where the Spring Grand was held. We many times had $45000. or $50000. in the pot. It paid 40/30/20/10/. 70% to the buyer 30% to the shooter. The shooters loved it. The only restriction was you had to be an ATA member to bid. That way we keep the pro gambler out.
The moneys were never mixed. The calcutta was completely segregated from the option money. Roger C.

 

How do you spell Calcutta = "Special Event", gets done all the time ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You pay taxes on any line hit or bonus over $1,200 when playing slots. UNLESS of course you play enough to get a WIN/LOSS statement from the casino where you won it. Then, if you can use the long form, you PAY NO TAX on those winnings.

We, my wife and I, haven't had to pay tax on any of our jackpot hits in over 35 years.

And our great money grabbing federal government only steals it from the slot players. Table games are exempt.
I watched a guy at the Resorts in AC years ago run a $2,000 bankroll into a little over $78,000.

NO tax!!!!

BTW, we have over $15,000 so far this year in slot hits that we will NOT be paying taxes on. I just keep hoping one of the Kool-Aid drinkers would come on here and tell me I'm full of it and bet me I couldn't prove it.

Just a little action, ya know