2018 Grand American

Got this yesterday morning from the ATA.

 

Paying it "High Gun", is just another way of paying the top shooters more money .....

It will DO NOTHING to entice the average shooter to play a 35 dollar option .....

 

Looks impressive anyway.


Regards....Gerald

 

ONLY if you have no clue how "High Gun" is paid .....

 

I was excited about this, until I saw high gun. Figure the 2-3 100s will split 16,500, and the 99s will all share the remaining 15,500.

I am a bit disappointed that the EC minutes state add money has no affect on attendance, then they go and subsidize these two pots, as I doubt 857 people play them.

 

So how would you pay it out? Look at the results of some recent state shoots like MN, IA. Mn had a young man, Junior Gold break 99 and 98 in handicap and he was not a big dog. The 99 I believe was from 20 yds and the 98 from 21. Tom

 

"The entry for each of these two purses is $30. It appears that the ATA has calculated that 857 entries in the purse will be required in each event for the guarantee to be met without losing Association money and will add places (below the listed 10) as entries grow. The payout plan is fully explained in the program.

I look forward to seeing how successful the option is. I anticipate that it will tell us, roughly speaking, how interested are present-day Grand American shooters in shooting for even modest money against the best in the country; I personally will pass, thank you, but I am more realistic than a lot of ATA members, probably about many things. I do think we will see names, and maybe even states, in greater attendance which have not supported us as much recently as I think they might were more money in play, no matter how illusory. I think that's good.

It will be an interesting test - though far from "proof;" it's a couple of days at one big shoot, after all - of how much the general lack of worthwhile money to shoot for these days can be thought of as "responsible" for the decline in ATA membership over the last few decades. For that reason, I approve of the plan and will just reluctantly write off the suckers skinned* as regrettable collateral damage, the price of education for both us and them.

Neil

* in a ratio of 85.7:1

"

 

IT HAS NOTHING to do with young or old, short yardage or long ..... it has to do with DECEPTION .....

As said above ..... 3-100's would split equally first, second, and third place money ..... 7-99's would split equally the rest of the money .....

So, this "young man" would get back ZERO for his "98 from 21" playing this 35 dollar option .....

FWIW ..... this should be listed as a 35 dollar donation, not option, to replace the money being paid to ATA's "Pro Idols" .....

 

Look at post number "2" ...... it says "$35.00" ......

 

You are right, it's $35. I regret the error.

N1H1

 

If this is supposed to be "odds of winning money" ...... You may want to change this in a way that may apply to a "High Gun pay-out" ...... The "odds" should much higher than that number .....

With a "High Gun Pay-out", the use of "places" is misleading to most people .....

 

"If this is supposed to be "odds of winning money."

Who says so? It is, as should be clear, the ratio of suckers to money winners. Add to that the vast difference in shooting skill among likely entrants and the "odds of winning money." are far, far worse that than that for almost everyone who might contemplate entering the purse. That's why they are "suckers" if they play.

The "expected value" of such a bet is very small. Entrants are betting on an even-money game (like coin flipping) when many of their competitors are getting ten, twenty, fifty coins to flip to beat their one.

N1H1

 

For the sake of cyber-chat, ..... What do you think the State of Illinois has in place for the public disclosure of the "odds of winning money" ??????

And ..... Knock yourself out here ..... https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/sports-gambling-in-illinois-what-are-69126/ ..... and give an opinion on placing the ATA's "501-c-3 charity" in peril ..... by the State of Illinois' possible view of this "Guaranteed Purse" .....

Could this "option" be looked at as "revenue", because the "option money" DOES NOT give an additional effect until this "857" number replaces the "ATA's front money" ???????

 

Here is my take: I have a AAA singles average and just got a reduction to 25.5 yards. If I'm still at 25.5 when these events happen I will not play as I can't shoot good enough to win. If I'm at the 27 with several recent punches I might play. If I'm at the 27 and only breaking scores < 95 I will not play.

 

Bad bet even from a money shooter's stand point. It most likely will take a 98 to hit the bottom payout. When the 50 dollar purse at the grand was first introduced in the GAH it was 40,30,20,10 High Gun meaning only 4 shooters were needed to take all the money, after it went to 40,30,20,10 per percentage you knew that the top four scores would share the money.

The odds of 857 shooters out of 2000 playing the money is far fetched. I don't think the odds of winning argument means anything because one is about a game of chance "luck" and trap shooting is a game of skill, like poker. Brad

 

But, what if its windy?

 

It does in Trapshooting, or if you prefer to use the word "chance", and not "odds" .....

As in, what are the "odds", or the "chance", of an average Trapshooter getting any return on this 35 dollar option ??????

Call the possibility of return what ever you like ..... but, being payed "High Gun", it should be called a donation .....

Also ..... the way it seems to be written, it looks like the ATA is going to keep the "option money" from the first, if possible, "857" people playing this "option" for each event to replace their front money ..... that may cause them some logistical problems that the "save Sparta at any cost" may cause .....

 

Has this thinly veiled attempt to funnel ATA money to those who Trapshooting is their "vocation", made it clear that the red "Professional" line is crossed ?????????

"A simplistic, yet useful definition is that amateur athletes participate in sports as an avocation while professional athletes are involved in sports as a vocation." ..... https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/sports_law

The manipulation of the "rules" in an effort to control the cash flow in a desired direction was bad enough ..... but, using ATA/member's money in a severely biased way, is too far over the top .....

 

So what's new? All kinds of games played as long as $$$ are involved....from refusing yardage reductions, failure to fire rules, manipulation of squadding and trap selections, "sandbagging"...the lists and examples get discussed here regularly. One of the more comical discussions is on here right now involving hundreds of comments about a disqualified shooter. Flame away. Ed

 

Around five years ago (not sure about the year) the EC increased the cost of daily fees during the year to be put into the monies to be won at the Grand. So what right? Catch is the ATA made the children shooters pay into that also.

Great bunch of people.

 

That is an easy one to answer ......

NOW ..... the ATA is willing to give the Pro/full-time shooters MONEY directly out of the ATA bank account ......

If that is the game ..... then end it with a winner takes all ..... every dime in every account ..... so Trapshooting can move forward in a more positive direction ......

 

I would use a lottery system to distribute the $60,000 to 60 shooters at $1,000 each. No skill involved, and all who play have the same odds getting drawn. Much fairer system than the High Gun system which pays only the top 10 shooters.

 

The $30.00 option w/857 shooters is a loss to begin with of $4290.00 on each event

GB.........................DLS

 

It is a $35 option.

857 x $35 = $29,995

 

I hope someone going to Sparta will check the option entry figures and post the results. I know All Americans who shoot targets only.
I do not imagine we will get the figures any other way if it is a failure. N1H1 may do a chart or graph though.

 

They post that info online. Here is an example from last year.

JACKPOT PURSE - 379 Entries @ $25 entry, split 25-15-10-25-15-10%
1-100@$2368.75, 1-97@$1421.25, 6-96@$157.75, 14-95@$169.00, 16-94@$88.75, 26-93@$36.25

Every option from every event is available to look at. I'll check for accuracy but they can post/print anything they want.

 

Thanks ebs! I think you selected a good example. I am going to save that 379 figure for a ties divide option to compare.

 

Based on the 2017 numbers that ebsurveyor listed in post #27, 64 of the 379 entries or 16.9 percent of the shooters made at least $11 more than the $25 entry fee.

 

QUOTE: I'll check for accuracy but they can post/print anything they want.




Reminds me of the 15,000 number of campers they came up with a few years ago...LOL

 

The new purse will be paid High Gun. The purse payouts EB posted was paid %. Based on those numbers, only 22 people would get paid if that purse was High Gun.

 

my mistake, I mis-read that option as a $30.00 entry

 

Help me understand why the number would be 22 and not 10.

Thank you.

 

If this example was paid high gun:

JACKPOT PURSE - 379 Entries @ $25 entry, split 25-15-10-25-15-10% 1-100@$2368.75, 1-97@$1421.25, 6-96@$157.75, 14-95@$169.00, 16-94@$88.75, 26-93@$36.25

JACKPOT PURSE - 379 Entries @ $25 entry, split 25-15-10-25-15-10% PAID HIGH GUN

1-100@$2368.75, 1-97@$1421.25, 6-96@$947.50

High gun means that (in the example) you would only have the top six scores sharing the money. In the example that would be 1-100, 1-97 & 6-96s (8 shooters).

All handicap options are sucker bets if you can't average above 93 or so at handicaps!

 

It would be a number based on "ties divide", something that does not show on the "program" page in post number "2" .....

The 14-95's would "divide" 9th and 10th place money, or up to 11th place or more, if by some unknown miracle there are 10 or more stupid people "over" this "857" number .....

 

You are correct if you apply my example scores to the $60,000 give away at this year's grand. My guess is <500 suckers play this option.

 

OK, I think I now understand. Thanks for your help.

 

This is why we need the SCTP children. The more children we force to pay dues and daily fees the more monies we will have for the pros. One of the pros should take out an ad thanking the kids for their lunch money.

More tots shootin means more $$$$$$. Neil must be very proud of his friends and the corporation.

 

A Hi Gun Purse 20-15-10-20-15-10 and their were 6 99s they would take all the money,

A percentage Hi gun purse that paid 6 places the same 6-99s would take all the money

If it paid PLACES the 6-99s would take 20%, 98s would take 15% the 97s would take 10% the 96s would take 20% the 95s would take 15% the 94s would take 10%, this is the way Great Eastern Purse pays.

GB............................DLS

 

Expect 5 top high average handicap shooters and 5-20 yd. handicap shooters from KY to be the eventual winners. Then split the pot 60/40!

 

Here is a graph.


Scatter graph. Coins scattered on the ground.

 

AIM kids shooting early at Sparta are the ones taking this on the chin the hardest. How much money does it take to stay in Sparta? You take your child to Sparta early in the week. He has been paying into this pot all year. Now if he or you want some of this money back you have to stay for the whole shoot.

Mathematically this puts the kids at a huge disadvantage. They have to spend more to get the same monies. How convenient for the EC and the pros. I am sure they never thought about eliminating those short yardage shooters. ​

 

ATA shoukd just ban kids under 55 and some of you adults between 56 and 75 are never going to grow up.

 

That is your answer? Now my feelings are hurt.

 

Arrived at "THE GRAND" late last night. I didn't go to OH this year some I'll make some observations in comparison to PSSA @ Elysburg. At the Grand I can pre-squad and pick the banks I want to shoot in Elysburg I can send in my money and they will pick the banks I shoot. Grand + 1. In PA gas is about $3 per gal Saw $2.66 at a bunch of places in IL last night. Grand = +2. Shell might be cheaper at the shell house in PA, but I buy all of my shells and haul them to the shoots, so shells are a "tie". Got a bacon/egg sandwich at the Butcher Block today for $6 they were cheaper in PA (I think), but the BB's were much better. Because of price I'll call this a "tie".

Results thus far:

Bank selection favor the GRAND.
Gas favor IL over PA (PA is highest in the USA)
Shells = a tie
Food so far GRAND wins

 

Harry, I'll work on it. I can do some from memory:

Parking to shoot: Grand wins. lots of parking and I always can park near my bank. PSSA parking sucks & parking in campground also sucks.

Camping is cheaper by 30% in PA, but maybe you get what you pay for.

 

TV: Grand wins. I can pull in dozens of channels & scores in Sparta v scores only in PA.

 

The campgrounds look better than they did about 10 years ago.

 

How did you get a tree? I got a lake and waist high grass next to my spot!

 

Grass mowing:

The Grand wins. Some years Sparta does not even have grass to mow. PSSA overall does a better job mowing, but a few years ago they mowed my power cord. Since I did not cry about it they never even acknowledged it.

 

Every one who plays that High Gun purse ought to get a bumper sticker that reads I SUPPORT THE TOP DOGS.

 

It's tough out here at the so called Grand. Had to laugh yesterday when I saw a All American getting UPC lables off flat boxes in the dumpster. SMH

 

Yesterday's 'caps

100'S - 83 Entries @ $25 entry, split 50-30-20%

 

Heck, I saw an All-American lady shooter classed "C" Singles, 27yds, AA Doubles at the last shoot I attended. So what's the big deal?

 

Butch how many shooters in the caps yesterday? Brad

 

SHOOTATAGRAND.COM SHOOT SCORES

ENTRY COUNTS REPORT - MAIN MENU



CHOOSE EVENT FOR ENTRY COUNT REPORT... 1 - HODGDON POWDER SINGLES - WEDNESDAY (08/01/2018) 2 - TRAP & FIELD HANDICAP - WEDNESDAY (08/01/2018) 3 - LITTLE EGYPT GOLF CARS DOUBLES - WEDNESDAY (08/01/2018) 4 - MEC SHOOTING SPORTS SINGLES - THURSDAY (08/02/2018) 5 - TRAPSHOOTING USA HANDICAP - THURSDAY (08/02/2018) 6 - ZOLI INTERNATIONAL DOUBLES - THURSDAY (08/02/2018) 7 - STERLING CUT GLASS SINGLES - FRIDAY (08/03/2018) 8 - GIPSON-RICKETTS HANDICAP - FRIDAY (08/03/2018) 9 - KOLAR DOUBLES - FRIDAY (08/03/2018) 10 - NRA SINGLES (FULL 200) - SATURDAY (08/04/2018) 11 - KRIEGHOFF 100 HANDICAP - SATURDAY (08/04/2018) 12 - RIO AMMO DOUBLES - SATURDAY (08/04/2018) 13 - BLASER HANDICAP - SUNDAY (08/05/2018) 14 - WENIG DOUBLES - SUNDAY (08/05/2018) 2018 GRAND AMERICAN PRELIM WEEK - ENTRY COUNT REPORT
08/01/2018 - 08/05/2018
WORLD SHOOTING & RECREATION COMPLEX
SPARTA, IL
EVENT 13
1425 TOTAL SHOOTERS

CLASS/YARDAGE ALL
18.0 - 23
18.5 - 5
19.0 - 57
19.5 - 14
20.0 - 56
20.5 - 26
21.0 - 28
21.5 - 35
22.0 - 47
22.5 - 44
23.0 - 49
23.5 - 40
24.0 - 38
24.5 - 37
25.0 - 169
25.5 - 69
26.0 - 103
26.5 - 63
27.0 - 522

CATEGORIES ALL
OPEN - 488
LADY I - 66
LADY II - 55
SUB JR - 57
JUNIOR - 85
JR. GOLD - 68
SUB VET - 217
VET - 167
SR. VET - 222

http://www.shootatagrand.com/counts_grand.cfm?sorteventid=13&shootid=1

 

Looks like they claim 1436 but some paid and didn't shoot. Not sure what the REAL number is.

Number of Shooters
08/05/2018
All Scores 1,436

26.1 1626173 MICHELS JR ALDO LUIZ 0 25.0 -P COCOAL RO BZ
43.5 1626448 ESCHMAN TOM S 0 19.0 Sub Jr MONTROSE IA
76.5 0502682 TUNE DENNY R 0 26.0 Sr. Vet FAYETTEVILLE AR
101.3 0512605 LYNCH DAVID 0 22.5 Vet GREEN COVE SPRINGSFL
101.5 1511482 KRUPA JOE 0 24.0 DEARBORN MI
8/5/2018 5:33:31PM
Event # 13 BLASER HANDICAP
ATA # Name Score Yardage Category ST
Number of Shooters
08/05/2018
SqPst City
Top 2,000Scores All Scores 1,436
High Gun Report
115.4 0810317 LOCKRIDGE DAN 0 25.0 -P GALLATIN MO
118.4 1213674 ENGLAND ROWDY J 0 27.0 Junior CARLINVILLE IL
127.2 0311313 BERGMAN KAREN K 0 24.0 Lady II PRESCOTT AZ
127.3 3702590 BERGMAN JOHN 0 26.5 Sr. Vet PRESCOTT AZ
141.2 4046156 MORGAN LOUIE F 0 27.0 Sr. Vet LOVELAND OH
161.3 1778007 MCKEOUGH SAGE B 0 25.0 -P Sub Jr WAUSAU WI
221.3 1620287 TEBB NATHAN G 0 19.0 Sub Jr ATHABASCA AB
226.3 5001895 FREEMAN THOMAS H 0 22.5 Sr. Vet MEMPHIS TN

 

Butch 83 out of 1436 played the HG purse only about 6%. Long way to make the 800 plus needed for the guaranteed money on the big days.

 

Hard rain NOW in Sparta. Should stop before I take the line. I will now predict that the $35 purse entries will not come close to paying for the PAYOUTS. Looks like an attempt to send average shooters' money to the BIG GUNS & the guys from KT.

 

According to the ATA's shoot reports they show 1436 entries.

Of that number 13 did not shoot and 38 have lines through their names which used to mean disqualification.

Using these numbers it appears that 1436 people paid to shoot but only 1423 did.

Hard to fathom but for the entire preliminary week's handicap events . . . . . about 191 shooters were DQ'd . . . if the line drawn through their name still equates to a disqualification.

HB

 

It will make little difference if the ATA has to subsidize the guaranteed purse; with the help of an increasingly-successful sponsorship program, the Grand finally makes respectable money.

I anticipate one of two possible outcomes. Though outcome #1 would be fine with me, I expect what we will see is outcome #2.

Outcome #1. The option gets support somewhere near the break-even 850 or so that that would show there is enough interest in playing big-payoff options to keep doing it for shooters who want it. If there is a small loss, just think of it as added money and keep offering it, it seems to me.

Outcome #2. There turns out to be a lot fewer players than the break-even design was predicated for on. This was a test of the claim so often made here on this site that shooters want to play for big money. This is their chance to prove it. If it turns out to not be true, then we can say with evidence that the guys here puffing up and beating their chests about how much they would bet if there were big-payoff options were full of hot air, just trying to convince us they are super-macho real Diamond Jim gamblers, not the four-flushers I suspect them to be.

N1H1

 

There will never big big money in ATA as long as the targets are set so easy. What made money shooting at the grand was when the options would pay for your entree a 48 would pay for your event, a 49 for a 3 event day and a 50 straight for the week. If you broke a 94 you would hit the purse. A 97 was worth a grand, a 98 three grand and a 99 several. That all went away with short two hole targets.

Unless you fix that you can have all the plans to bring back the money shooter but they don't exist anymore. There is no way to fix it with trinket shooters running the ATA, they have no experience as a money shooter. I don't do graphs but I did make a hell of a lot of money shooting trap. Today no one makes money trap shooting unless they are giving lessons to the trinket guys. Some of us made it on the back end, today they make it on the front end.

The money in shotgun shooting today is again right back in live bird shooting. Live bird shoots have 300 dollar compulsory purse money. It cost 1500 for a 30 bird event with the options. There will be than more than 83 in some events also.

The largest pigeon shoot I was ever at had over 200 shooters, I'm not sure about today's. Also the harder the pigeons the larger the event and the better the shooters like it. Brad

 

The money shooters left years ago and were replaced with "trinkets only" shooters. The bread and butter guys who weren't afraid to gamble got smart enough to realize soft targets made for much higher scores and watered down payoffs. The "grand" became a play toy for rich (my motor home and shotgun costs more than your motor home and shotgun) wannabes. ATA policies made it harder for the average guy to at least break even on options while catering to professional shooters. There ya go Sir Neil!

 

The average shooter is not going to play a High Gun purse where a 97 won't get you jack sh#t.

 

Now they don't even pay 48's. One time at a state shoot (OH) I paid for my week's shooting with a lone 50. I should have bet $30 on Sunday. My last 49 paid $30.50

Would I get a 1099 for the $0.50 gain?

50'S (3) - 192 Entries @ $30 entry, split 60-40% each 50
1st 50 - 7-50@$164.50, 23-49@$33.25
2nd 50 - 10-50@$115.00, 24-49@$32.00
3rd 50 - 7-50@$164.50, 25-49@$30.50

 

So ...... The ATA can take "sponsorship" money, deposit it into the ATA account, then pay it out "High Gun" to the "Pro" shooters ...... and, "It will make little difference" ...... maybe NOT to your arrogant-ass ...... But, don't expect a lot of like-minded support ......

 

Here is event 14 from the first Sparta Grand:

EVENT # 14 - HANDICAP
50 OPEN OPTION
501 ENTRIES = $15030.00
SCORE WINNERS PAID
1ST -----------------
50 10 $ 301.00
49 34 $ 59.00
2ND -----------------
50 9 $ 334.00
49 29 $ 69.00
3RD -----------------
50 10 $ 301.00
49 40 $ 50.00

 

In 2006 they had added money:

EVENT # 20
THE GRAND AMERICAN HANDICAP
ADDED MONEY
CHAMPION $1400 OHYE KAY 99
RUNNER UP $1200 MCCONNELL RONALD J 99
THIRD PLACE $900 MARSHALL JR RICHAR 99
FOURTH PLACE $800 DAILY SR DAVID T 99
FIFTH PLACE $700 GRAY ANDY J 99
SIXTH PLACE $700 STOCKDALE DALE 99
SEVENTH PLACE $600 NATCHER WILLIAM A 99
EIGHTH PLACE $500 DRESSLER DAVE A 99
NINTH PLACE $500 LUNSFORD V TANK 99
TENTH PLACE $400 CHADWELL CARL 99

 

Butch I can remember when a 200 straight at any of the Pa shoots paid real good money as did the Maryland shoots and Eastern Zone shoots. The high water mark in 16's money at the grand for me was 1978 when I got a little over $1500 for winning the clay target. After the men in charge softened the birds I broke all the singles at the grand 2 different years and lost money both times because of shoot off shells.

Missouri used to have a great fall handicap event, I broke a $2000 plus 25 straight there one year. They used to throw the targets over the horizon and were tuff but fair. The best 50 at caps I can remember was around 4 grand in Vegas.

The money really went out of the grand options around the time they started the cancer purse. 25 - 15 -10 -25 -15 - 10 % That made a 4th place score pay better than a 3rd. Redistribution of wealth and easy targets made for the perfect storm to end the money shooter, the lack of money made not going to the grand very easy for me, a lot easier than I thought it would be. I haven't shot the grand since 2004 and honestly don't miss it. I do have fun screwing with the dick heads that messed it up though.

If you and Kay enjoy it good for you. I wonder what Frank would say about all this? Brad

 

Hey Brad, In PA & MD you could play the money in singles & doubles and sometimes hit a $1000 lewis. The good old days, Jerry Russo hit the lone 200 in PA and it paid big. I guess the downward trend started then, about 30 years ago. Gene A, Frank & I shot a lot together and Gene thought it was his job to protect the "dumb shooters" from the money shooters. His words (more or less) most shooters are to dumb to know that they should not be playing the money and feeding the good shots.

 

Thank you BRAD DYSINGER for asking a historical question. Below are some thoughts from the late Frank Little of which I generally share his opinion.

Enjoy Our Sport !

HB

​

 

Dysinger, calling Dysinger,clean up in aisle N1H1

 

Much has happened with guns and ammo since Frank wrote that article. Let's not forget voice pulling which made the current fence much easier. I was with Frank when he broke 25 straight wobble trap using only one shot. I'll betcha if he was still alive today the 30 yd. line would receive positive comments. Too bad he died much too young.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

For all the "new" shooters and you Kool-Aid drinkers lurking, and I do know you come on here to check things out, a lone 98 and six 97's in the Preliminary Handicap event during the Golden Age of Trapshooting and how the money was there if you were good enough.

I don't remember what the 98 paid, or if the guy even played anything, but one of the 97's paid enough to cover the week AND buy a new TM1.

 

If my memory is right I remember Dr. Ross Warren & some other OH hillbilly both hitting it big back in the day at Vandalia.

 

1989 Budweiser Handicap a few bucks short of 30K and Doc's about the same.

 

1994 I got $1600 for a back 50 and ended with a 94 in Grand American Handicap

 

You were in the position to know what it paid.

​

 

Ya only had to beat about 403 shooters. The other 90% were already beat thinking about the weather.

Of course those other 403 knew what they were doing too. Still get a kick out of reading about the Good Ole Days.

Thanks HB

 

Other then the two 100's, check out how many 99's and 98's there were. Way to easy targets. Be interesting to see the High Gun purse pay out. Poor 97's. This is Pre Handicap.