Sparta and the Grand

Big turnout?

 

Big compared to what????????????????? Roger C.

 

Everyone other trapshoot held on the planet this year?

 

Define "BIG" .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The Grand with have slightly more shooters than the OH or PA state shoots. My prediction is that entries will be down again this year.

 

John, You do not know what big is. We used to field 750 plus shooters at our chain shoot in Phoenix back in the 80's and 90's. You apparently have not been around very long.
The money was more evenly divided, not paid top gun. Lower class shooters had a better chance of winning a little money. Roger C.

 

How do you know what I know? I shot the biggest Grand there ever was. 750 shooters isn’t that big when compared to the Grand. The original poster asked if there will be a big turnout. The simple answer is, yes. It will be the largest trapshoot on the planet. That’s big.

 

John, I repeat you do not know what a big shoot looks like. We ran 1000 shooters at the Spring Grand in Phoenix over 55 trap fields. Sparta has only come up to 2000 when Vandalia fielded 5000. please tell me again what big is. I have been to every Grand held in Sparta plus the firts US open. None could be clasified a BIG.
I only made the judgement about what you know based on you statements. When you judge something make sure of all the facts. Roger C.

 

Tell me again what I don’t know....You must have missed where I mentioned that I’ve shot the biggest trap shoot that’s ever been on the planet earth. I’m pretty sure I know what it looked like. What do you know that I do not? What shoot did you shoot that was bigger?

How did that large Spring Grand work out for Phoenix? Did they ever find all that money there that was ‘lost’? Have all the suppliers been paid back yet? If I were you I wouldn’t be bragging about running those shoots.

 

John, I will tell you .you know JACK SHIT about any financial short comings of Phoenix Trap & Skeet. No supplier was ever not paid for services rendered. Some were even paid for product never received by the club. You are running your mouth about something you have no idea about.
I was the treasure at that club for two years, and no one was ever not paid. Some of the scum bags came back at the club after it was closed and said we can not prove we were not paid but we do not think we were. I left the club prior to the final closing, I told them the bill was paid. The asses paid it again.
The spring Grand worked fine for the club, we cleared about $150,000.00 every year. That was after the EC was set up with a comfort room for their exclusive use. Roger Coveleskie

 

I would imagine that there a couple thousand people planning on shooting the GAH event this year.





The OTHER couple thousand that used to shoot it before it moved to that place in IL. probably have other plans..

2016, 1,745 "shooters"
2017, 2,003 "shooters"
2018, somewhere in between

Like the man said, compared to what? The Grand during what the late great Roger Smith called the "Golden Years" or the last couple abysmal turn outs?
And if the monsoon season continues as it has the last few months the number could be lower than the last couple of years.

 

Not to worry....to read these posts, the Grand is slowly, assuredly, just fading away! BUT there IS hope. One of these days, somewhere, sometime, the new Competition Series will make the Grand just a distant memory. Keep the faith and remember the old days. Ed

 

I think you all may want to check the numbers for the SCTP Trap Shoot this weekend at the Cardinal Center. It will probably be larger for one event than the GRAND will be for one event. They have over 2000 entrees as of a month or so back for the Team singles event. Also a thousand or so in the Sporting and Skeet shoots and 700 or more in the rifle and pistol events.

Another trap shoot that is as big or bigger than the Sparta Grand is the youth shoot in Nebraska each year. I don't know those numbers for sure but someone on here does. So to say that the Grand is the largest trap shoot goes back to what your definition is. If you mean the most spread out over a land area you would be right for sure. Brad

 

The Nebraska JR/SR High School Shoot for 2018 had: 855 Junior and 1654 Senior shooters for a grand total of 2509 over the three days in May. In 2016 we saw the highest recorded number in a single year of 2584 total shooters.

 

All those Nebraska shooters are forced to be ATA members even tho they don't register handicap targets. What does that tell you about ATA membership?

 

It shouts either clean house or start a new organization. One where the members have a say in the operations. Roger C.

 

Pipe Layer is available. Speak to him.

 

That is not true! They are NOT required to join the ATA for the Jr/Sr. High program at the Nebraska State Jr/Sr. shoot.

 

There was one year at the Spring Grand at the Old Phoenix Club where 9,999 shooters total for all events, the Handicap Championship Event there were 529 Squads ( do not have the total number of shooters in that event ) , I seem to recall approx 2600 (+ or - a few ) shooters in that event for some reason ... The "Members" of the Old Phoenix Club were notified of any and all meetings where the financials of the club were discussed so any one interested could be updated and all dept was paid some as old as 7 years per the invoices ... The ATA claimed the fees of approx $17,000 were not paid , so some genius paid them again after Roger and I walked away rather than search for and send them a copy of the check when it was paid the first time ... There were vendors that got paid for product that was never received or got to the club ... Those members that were interested had it all explained to them, we had several people who claimed to be paid members that were not, they were asked to leave those meetings because it was none of their business, those who did not leave were escorted to the door ... The net this particular year was close to $ 282,000 .00 most of which was applied to out standing bills and accounted for and gone over to verify the numbers ... The Bank had a note for a $50,000 line of credit that only had the interest paid on it for several years and that interest amounted to over $38,000 (on a $50,000 L O C) , that was also paid off ... There were lots or rumors floating around, started by many people who had no idea what they were talking about so you had to consider the source and move on ... The Members that attended the meetings knew the facts and did not discuss it with anyone outside of the membership, being as they were asked not to ... It was a great club with many great members, though there was some bad management for several years that swamp was drained ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I still think the way to go is ..... State Organizations to start removing themselves from the ATA .....

When enough removed themselves, it would remove all power from the ATA, then, force them into a position of going totally under, or, accept the "house cleaning" .....

This could be accomplished very quickly, being the use of something already in place vs starting from nothing, including money and other infrastructure .....

 

Union Strong,

Check your inbox.

Thanks

 

WPT, 2600 entries in the Sunday handicap at Phoenix?

 

El Paso, The squad count for the Spring Grand was in error. 229 was the number for the squads and just around 1000 shooters shot in it. Many of the first squads were not used or were not full. We did this on 55 traps. We closed the practise traps to use the added bank in the program. Roger C.
PS The 9999 was the number if all events were added together for the entire shoot. Add two zeros to the 999,900 and that is how many targets were thrown for the entire shoot.
John, you should crawl back in the hole you crawled out of. You are sticking you nose in where it is neither needed and is explicitly none of your business. I do not know if you name is John or not. but you never appeared on the member list at Phoenix club, so just sit down shut up and look for another pot to stir. Roger Coveleskie

 

I was there Roger, was actually one of the squads who shot the practice traps.
I knew WPT's numbers were off.

 

A couple of thoughts:

- Why should we trust the $$$ amounts given by someone who clearly doesn't know the difference between 2600 shooters and 1000 shooters? Should we consider the source and move on in this case as well?

- Why does anyone think 1000 shooters shooting 100 targets over 55 traps is impressive? Elysburg once ran 1604 shooters shooting *200* targets over 52 traps and has run over 2000 shooters through 200 targets numerous times. Don't throw out your shoulder patting yourself on the back there.

- How did the management of the Phoenix T&S club allow so much debt to accumulate and so many unpaid bills to pile up? Especially if the shoots were so $ucce$$ful as claimed by the management? I guess it's easier to just blame someone else instead of taking responsibility. I find it amusing that the most vocal ATA bashers here seem to live in a pretty big glass house. Don't throw any stones!

-What happened to all the money from the sale of the land? How come the club was never moved? How many lawsuits were there and what was the result? How much $$$ did the 'members' in those closed-door meetings walk away with? What happened to all the assets?

 

The financial business of the club was discussed in closed door meetings with members only present, so if you were not a member it was and is still none of your business ... If you were a member and attended any of the meetings you would of had answers to any and all questions beyond that the case is closed ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Sheesh--a thread predicting the attendance at the Grand turns into a blame game. It's Phoenix's fault? Now we got the whole story. The rich guys at Phoenix causing Sparta to tumble.

Earth to John......the problems at Sparta not caused by Elysburg either but they share the elitist system.

 

So you yell and scream that the ATA needs to be completely open and transparent but can't share the history on how some folks managed to kill one of the best clubs in the country? Closed door meetings are good enough for you but how dare the ATA do the same thing! What a hypocrite.

 

No one is blaming Elysburg or Phoenix for the ATA's problem. I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy that abounds on this board. Keep up with me.

Does Ohio have any elitism? I bet if you look closely you might find some!

 

The financial business of the club was explained in detail to the Members who attended the meetings, if you would of been a member you could of attended and asked any and all questions you might of had and had them answered ... If you were not a member it is not and was not any of your business ... You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and who killed what when it came to that club, and that also is none of your business unless you were a members and attended the meetings ... (KEY WORD : MEMBER) ...

I have been a Life Member of the ATA since 1975, (KEY word : MEMBER) , there for I feel the financial business of the ATA is my and every other "members" business ... There was a time members would get financial disclosures as life members (?) , I feel any and all members should be advised and the ATA should be transparent and accountable to all members ... (KEY WORD : MEMBER) ...

P S . I never yell and scream about anything to anyone ... Closed door meetings for all MEMBERS to get disclosures, being as the ATA is not limited to membership in one state all members should be advised of financial dealings prior to not after they happen ... EX: relocation funds not used for relocation ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I never ran a gun club. I never had to explain any financial dealings. I never had anything to do with a club in Arizona. I never had anything to do with how Elysburg was run.

THE ATTENDENCE YOU KOOL-AID DRINKERS THINK IS JUST FINE FOR THE "gah" EVENT AT THAT PLACE IN IL. STILL SUCKS AND NOTHING YOU CAN SAY ABOUT ANYONE ON THIS BOARD WILL CHANGE THAT.

And for all you lurkers. If me posting the numbers of shooters actually willing to go to that place in IL.(half of what it used to be) and hoping the 'grand' stays in sparta is "bashing" then so be it.

I said before, I hope the ata does whatever it has to do, no matter what the cost, to keep the "grand" right where it is.

BTW, Let me know when they get anywhere near 4,000 entries for gah day.

 

I have never been a member of the OSTA or the PSSA. I was never a member of Phoenix Trap and Skeet. I do not now, nor have I ever had an expectation that any of them disclose any imformation to me other than shoot dates, shooting fees, entry proceedure, squading proceedure and option payouts if I played. Any further expectation would be an unreasonable expectation on my part.

The ATA is different. I am a member. One need only compare minutes from meetings as formerly published by the independently owned and operated T and F to those published today by the current T and F.

A comparison of P T&S failure to disclose information to non-members and ATA transparency or lack of transparency to their members........////////........text redacted.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redacted

 

John, I added a PS to my quote about the numbers at the Phoenix club, go up and read it . It was typed for your benefit. Roger Coveleskie

 

The ATA has been doing it for Years and Years on end. Phoenix is none of Our Businesses, only their Members, Period'

GB.............................DLS

 

I’m greatly amused that the folks here who lead the biggest collapse of a gun club in history have the stones to criticize the operation of the ATA and others. They are proudly bragging about how many shooters they had and how much money they made but won’t take responsibility for turning the club grounds into condos. They also demand transparency and are quick to point out any perceived inconsistency with ATA operations but take pride in their ‘closed door meetings’ while refusing to address the decades-long rumors of mismanagement, fraud, and theft of this once proud club. I can only think of one reason why they would refuse to address these concerns. Where there is smoke there is fire. If you want to complain and point fingers make sure your own house is in order first.

Also, wasn’t this board founded on the principles of calling out fraud and abuse with those entrusted with our money? And yes, I shot enough at Phoenix where I think I have a right to ask questions because some of that money that went into the members pockets and who knows where else was mine.

 

John Wick ,
If you were not a Member of the club you are not entitled to any answers, many people shot there over the years and they are not entitled to answers either if they were not MEMBERS ... Fraud and abuse, again making claims of something you have no idea what you are talking about, mismanagement (?) by who and when (be specific) ..? The concerns you claim to have will not be addressed years after the fact, nor would they of been addressed at the time if you were not a MEMBER of the club in question (according to the club records you were not a MEMBER) ... You have no right what so ever to anything regarding a club that no longest exists no matter how much money you spent there ... Get over it, you are barking up the wrong tree ... If you want to make accusations post names, dates, and specific fraud and abuse and quit blowing smoke ... Be careful what you say, someone might end up owning you ...

I checked the records (mailing list ) from the club, there is no John Wick that ever shot there, listed as a MEMBER, nor is there a John Wick listed as a MEMBER of the ATA in Ohio, or PA, so if there is a fraud or abuse it appears that it would be you based on your postings and accusations … WPT … (YAC) …

 

John Wick,
I had an experience with another person who used to post things, then deny he ever said such a thing so I took the Liberty to make a file on this persons posts so if it ever happened again I could bring it back up and show him proof ...
I did the same thing with your posts being as you are making false accusations about people though you have yet to name names, dates, or anything realistic in your posts ...You said fraud, abuse, mismanagement and how you were worried about your money going into a members pockets ... To inform you any and all posts will be on file that could be an accusation of any and all misdoings made by you, to have proof ... This is fair warning so choose your words wisely Grass Hopper ... Have a nice day ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Go in WalMart and tell them how much money you spend there and you want to see their books and have them explain it to you where your money goes and see what they tell you ... Being a Stock holder (member) I get reports and don't even have to ask for them ...

 

John Wick: Ctiticize the ATA, They need to be Ostricizesd, The ATA Corporation needs to be Re-structured, Corporation Dissolved in Illinois, and be Re-incorporated in another State, That is Gun Friendly, I think if we asked the NRA they could inform us of locations to check out.

Just Maybe the NRA could help us Re-organize the ATA.

I will send them an E-mail, and ask LaPierre, Immeaditly after this post.

GB............................DLS

 

WPT,

Am I supposed to be worried about your ‘files’? Is that some sort of threat that will cause me to lose sleep? Hitler, Hoover, and McCarthy all kept ‘files’ on people and frankly I’m more worried about them and they’ve been dead for 50 years.

You are completely missing my point where I repeatedly point out that some of the biggest complainers about the ATA lead the biggest closure of a gun club ever. I frankly couldn’t care less about a club that’s been closed for 15? years now other than I enjoyed shooting there. Softest targets I have ever seen in my life.

I don’t need to make any accusations as I’m just responding to the information you posted. You admitted that the Phoenix club had poor fiscal management , financial controls, and business practices in your post #19 on Tuesday, July 17th at 11:03AM. If you’re willing to admit that publically on the internet, a reasonable person would assume that really bad stuff was saved for your ‘closed door, members only meeting.’

A simple yes or no question for you where you can help dispel all the rumors: Did any member or officer financially benefit from the closing of the club?

And save your ‘You weren’t a member and don’t deserve an answer’, we are all smarter than that.

Finally, can you make a copy of my file and send it to me? I’d like to review it.

 

No, case closed ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Attn: All members & Joe, I sent an E-mail to the NRA asking them for help in Re-organizing the ATA, How to do the re-org, and what state to do it in. I told Wayne Lapierre how to contact the correct person for this site, I wanted to be up-front to American Trapshooter and all it's members, I wanted all of us to know how/what we can do, to re-organize efficiently and Correctly,and quickly.

The NRA is a large Corp, has Millions of members, and the ATA is less than a 100,00 members and only 50,000 it they are lucky active shooting members.

I personally feel re-org is needed, or a complete Replacement, and Owners of all ATA Equipment, ATA Offices, Traps, Monies, Checking account, Stocks, Bonds, and all other Investments. A real complete Take over, if it has to come to that, to keep draining of our funds. A FREEZE of all monies,

W/ info on how to do a Complete Take-over, efficiently.

Gary Bryant............................Dr.longshot

 

Man, this thread didn't just rub the wall going into turn four, it turned into a multi car crash. All we need is Danika.

Just as a reminder, BIG TURN OUT?

 

Flyer, NASCAR and the ATA both headed in the same fantastic direction. Maybe Danika will save trap shooting like she did car racing.

 

If you want to watch a crashcar race,just go flush a toilet.

 

Gary,
I know your intentions are pure but the NRA taking control of and purging the ATA of the trash will never happen ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I was not asking the NRA to take control, only advice on HOW WE THE MEMBERS CAN TAKE CONTROL

GB..................................DLS

 

The Life Members at one time had a right to vote on issues, that was changed many years ago so it seems like the only votes that would count as the Organization is set up today would be the EC and BOD ... If by chance the members got together and started a legal action they would essentially be filing suit against them self being as the ATA would use accumulated money from the members to defend their position ... The cost would be staggering not to mention damages that could (financially) be done in the time it would take to get it into a court ... If by chance the P I T A expanded its geographic area the ATA could lose enough members so they would feel the hurt, but its very doubtful that would happen or would it put them out of business ... I do not know of any way to turn back the hands of time which would be a good start to a resolution if the Life Members got their rights back ... I think the members would be facing an intense legal battle here again that would be very costly ... I am not a Lawyer but had some education taking some courses in law in collage, nothing that would be any part of something of this nature (Fire Science/ Arson investigation ) ... I don't know that even the NRA would consider getting involved in something that could probably end up being a major can of worms that this could end up being ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT,

Members never had a vote on issues, except - the right to vote on liquidation of the property in Vandalia, which was removed back in 1955. It is unlikely there would be an intense legal battle to get their rights back, since there were none, so far as operating decisions are concerned, to begin with.

Honestly, you can't have an organization of this size run by votes of individual members. Heck, most local clubs are not run that way! It just does not work when there are 10's of thousands of members.

 

Neil's right. We did collectively vote on the move away from Vandalia and it didn't mean squat. Now we're stuck with Spartaland while many fingers are pointed in our direction for it's failure. The deal was already done and we were duped.

 

I'll be here in 6 days and you nay sayers will be missing it.

 

I'll be here in 2 weeks. Comped RFB, 6 nights at the Cove.

Hmm, lets see, what will I be missing?

I might even have a Cherry Kool-Aid as a toast to that place in IL.

 

Hey Flyers you couldn't pay me enough to go to a place like than. I'll be here for four months after the Grand.

 

ebsurvayer, Are you not feeling good? That looks like heaven to me. Roger C.

 

I vote for Maine while I'm restricted to foxes in PA with a few stray coyotes every so often. Tammy loves putting bracelets (MB 550's) on those reds. It looks too easy up there.

 

"You couldn't pay me enough to go to a place like that"

Apparently me and a few THOUSAND other people feel the same way about that place in your first picture.

Funny thing is, the last few trips there the Atlantis casino DID pay us to stay there.

 

Looks like an over-priced tourist trap....

 

Why would you say that about that place in IL? Though the tax payers in IL. probably agree with you.

If you mean the Atlantis Resort, Google is you friend.

Just because you call yourself an old goat doesn't mean you can't learn something new.

 

Very old picture there. That road looks to be navigable and safe to drive.

 

Question for you sparta likers. What is it about the place you like so much?

 

Me personally, it's 5 hours closer to my house than anywhere in Ohio.

 

Camper parking is very good. Over all the target background is better then most places I shoot. And it is the Grand.

 

It will definitely be the largest trap shoot in the world that is held in 2018. How many people shot in 1960, 1970, or 1980, does not matter now. It is 2018 and it is a BIG shoot for 2018.

 

frostyman. It does matter. We are loosing our membership at an alarming rate. When it gets to small to support it's self it will implode. No business can stand still, it either grows or it declines, and it is up to the persons in charge to see that the trend is growth, This is not happening. Roger C.

 

If facts matter...….the Nebraska shoot for kids will have more in one event. Non ATA shoot. Non SCTP shoot.
If facts matter...….the GAH had more during the Korean War.

But facts do not matter. The ATA falsely reported to the media there were 15,000 competitors already camping during preliminary week. They also reported there was another 15,000 in local motels.

To further prove facts do not matter. The ATA also doubled the number of participants and reported the false numbers to the members. Why lie to the members? They did not know the forum would catch the fake number? Or it could be facts do not matter.

I do not know what the numbers will be on the GAH this year. But you can be sure.....The facts do not matter.

The EC will ride this pony over the cliff.

Enjoy shooting.

 

More ATA Kool Aid ????????????

Not everyone will agree with, "[It] (Sparta grand) will definitely be the largest trap shoot in the world that is held in 2018. ..... look here ..... http://championship.mnclaytarget.com/2015/10/08/worlds-largest-shooting-sport-event/ .....

"Over 8,000 student athletes are expected to participate in the 2018 Trap Shooting Championship" ..... "at the Alexandria Shooting Park in Alexandria, Minnesota" ..... “With over 25,000 attendees through nine days, the Trap Shooting Championship is now the largest shooting sport tournament in the world”

 

But facts do not matter. The ATA falsely reported to the media there were 15,000 competitors already camping during preliminary week. They also reported there was another 15,000 in local motels. (Posted by Family Guy)

The 15,000 they had in the camp grounds at the WSRC was with approx. 225 empty sites (per numbers by someone who was there who physically counted them ) and there is a total of 1,000 sites, the 15,000 in the local and regional area hotel, motels and lounges must of got their days mixed up because they didn't show for the Handicap of all Handicap events (the grand American) which had 2003 entry's and many pulled out due to the weather … Talks about generating 20/30 million in the local and regional area, yet the State of Illinois Auditor's said the amount of taxes collected was less than in prior years … WPT … (YAC) …

 

The fact that the grand isn't as grand as other shoots shows that there is growth in trapshooting.

 

Perhaps, but also shows that the ATA continues to circle the drain.

 

And even with those two great reasons that place in IL. can only get about half the numbers for the GAH event.

"And it is the Grand"

At one time that statement meant something. That's all you used to hear at the local clubs leading up to the first, second week in August.

Going to the Grand?
When are you leaving for the Grand?
Man, I can't wait until the Grand.
Are ya shooting the whole week of the Grand again?
How many years does this make for you attending the Grand?
God, I get nervous just thinking about shooting the Grand American Handicap.

NOW? "And it is the Grand" pretty much doesn't mean much.

For you maybe, but for the OTHER 2000 shooters that used to sign up for the GAH event it really doesn't mean crap.

 

I thought that the OTHER 2000 shooters all died from old age.

 

What is "old" to you? 50? 60? 70?

Nope, they're still out there. They go to what few local registered shoots there are. They go to their state shoots. They go to the shoots held at Elysburg and the CC.

They just don't go to that place in IL.

I hope it never leaves there. If it takes all you dues paying members coughing up $100.00 a year for the next 25 years I would be OK with that. Whatever it takes to keep you guys happy in IL.

 

So, were there 8000 or 25000 ? I'm guessing 8000 since there are only 24000 kids in this program country wide and only 14000 of them are in MN.

 

I read it as, "Over 8,000 student athletes are expected to participate" and "over 25,000 attendees"

So, I would guess they used the two different words, "participate" vs "attendees", for a reason, unlike the ATA who just adds them all together and then doubles that number to publish.

 

SPARTA SUCKS, there I said it and I feel better. Brad Dysinger

 

The World Shooting & Recreational complex is a great facility. Just in the wrong location. This would be like building a pork operation in the Middle East.

 

Boy, if you climbed up there on GAH day you could probably see all 3800 to 4000 shooters that signed up for the big event.

Then again, like the sign you put on the tower states, NOT VANDALIA, so you don't have a prayer of seeing that many.

I wonder how many you could see if you climbed only HALF way up.

 

LG Has his head in the clouds and up the KAZOO of the BOD

GB........................DLS

 

John Wick no one can tell you what you know, nor can they tell what you don't know, what we can do is read what you post and that reveals a lot of both, Intelligence, & Stupidity, and ignorance of facts. You get judged by what you say.

GB...........................DLS

 

Do you still have any of the "Sparta or Bust" t's you had at the 2000-2001 Grand??

 

Yess I do. But 2XX only but can always add them if demand is enough. Brad