Tell me top 3-5 changes

Tell me the top 3-5 changes, that would significantly increase the number of active ATA shooters and the number of ATA targets thrown annually, if these changes could be magically implemented today. Please rank them in order, with number 1 being the change that would result in biggest increase and your guesstimate of the percentage increase for each change you listed.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

 

1-increase the maximum handicap yardage-5%

2-eliminate bank selection-5%

3-eliminate money punches-3%

4-eliminate penalty yardage-3%

5-put more money into youth trapshooting programs-2%

Slow down or eliminate more members erosion- all of the above

 

Is that what we want? We want more ATA targets thrown annually? Is that what would be better for trapshooting?

 

Plenty of Trapshooting takes place but not so much ATA. Most places charge $4-5 for practice rounds. ATA targets cost around $9 including fees. More and more shooters are on fixed incomes and reluctant to fork over an additional $4/round for what amounts to over-priced practice. Put the focus back on what made Trapshooting great (money) and we may have a chance. Keep treading water like today and we'll eventually sink!

 

FrankL,
I can only answer for myself, but yes I want the ATA to survive by growing the membership and increasing the number of ATA targets thrown annually. I believe that if changes can be made to make this happen it would be great for those currently shooting ATA targets, those who are considering shooting ATA targets and those who have no interest in shooting ATA targets.

I would appreciate your answer to my question above. There are no right or wrong answers, only opinions based on perception. Thank you.

 

One club I attend charges $4 and the other $3. But they don't have to give away free guns to folks like Pipe Layer and aren't being scammed by the PULL2012 group. Our BOD handles their responsibilities. We don't give the director of our local clubs $200, 000. You see we are about trapshooting. I get Frank's point. You can do the 5 things I just brought up. Or just shoot trap.

 

cfandg,
Are the two clubs you referenced above, throwing more, less or about the same amount targets per year compared to 2006?

 

Garry,
I seem to recall on another thread you came up with a fantastic idea about a Petition, then posted a link ... Typical of most Trap shooters who want something changed, altered , or modified you apparently want someone else to start said petition ... Why would that be and why have you not followed up on your really good idea, if I may ask ..? Are you a Member of the ATA, (if yes, for how long ) do you shoot trap and or registered targets ..? You had actually expressed some good ideas and logical reasoning in the posting I am talking about, so why let it drop ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

Finish one thing before you run off to another ... Post your top 3 , 4, or 5 things that will make it better Please ...

 

Develope alternative clay target sources. Increased clay target cost is the biggest factor in escalating target fees; ATA or otherwise.

Jon Reitz

 

About the same but almost no registered targets.

Except for the free rides given to EC members and BOD. Then there are the free $16k guns. Free trips to resort areas. Cost of buying land by the EC and selling it to us at inflated prices. There is the cost of attorneys for covering shananigans.

Have we mentioned building a $2.2 million building given to the State of Illinois? Sheesh you got my bp up. Time for pill.

 

Continuing. We get as many as 40 squads on a Wednesday morning. Just shooting. No dues. No state fees. Just fun and comradery.

 

cfandg,

Oh my man, you hit the sore spot with me...

All of the writings by you are spot on !

Especially that 2012 Pull BS that appeared to be a cover up by the eliminated "2012" in the minutes, that we here on this forum exposed .

 

Do away with carry overs--shoot off for everything-or coin flip-at my age I might be dead the next day

 

Garry I can't give you per cent value because I don't think any suggestion alone will fix the ATA but i will give you 5 things but not in order as they are equally important. Go back to the old three hole and distances of the target settings from the 70's. Do away with all the extra satellite grands. Scrap the current All American points hysteria. Mandatory reductions to fix the handicap system. Stop the old boys network EC way of running the ATA. Brad

 

There is not a need for 3, 5, or 50 "changes" ..... when ONE would do the most .....

Get rid of the self-serving money grabbers that have taken over running large competitive Trapshooting Events .....

I can remember, as a young shooter, the very best shooters at the time giving me their time for FREE to improve my shooting ..... Now it is more like a Carnival Midway, where the goal is to get as much of your money with the least return to you .....

Take large competitive Trapshooting back to a more friendly sport ..... Like the "Good Old Days", where you felt like an equal member instead of a donor to the Clinics, All American point chasers, and all the other people who work to empty your pockets giving little to nothing in return .....

So, until there is leadership that understands how to handle power in a fiduciary manner ..... you can change the color of the targets, throw them upside-down at any angle, and so on, and NOT get people to invest their time and money just to be treated as third class members .....

FWIW ..... "change" rarely happens from the bottom up, so as long as members are paying someone around 200k/year to do NOTHING other than trying to preserve their self-interest, and give others free travel and shotgun "gifts" for doing the same, "change" is nothing but a pipe-dream for an ever decreasing number of members .....

 

And in Fl-run the shoots 100 targets/field--this way you can get home without having to dodge commuter traffic or the snow bird migration on I-75-non everyone has an rv, camper r lives @ the Silver $--see how Bostic makes their events flat fly

 

wpt, here's my response to your post to me, (number 8), in the above thread.

You are the only one who has said they liked the petition idea. I thank you for your reply and your willingness to support it. I have been patiently waiting to see if others reply with a positive response to the ATA petition idea. I have not ran away from the ATA petition idea yet. But if you and I are the only ones who are willing to do the work to petition the ATA, what are the odds of the two of us getting enough signatures on the petition to have the desired effect? My post yesterday, asking others to identify the top 3-5 changes they think might increase ATA membership and increase the number of ATA targets thrown, is my attempt to get more information on what a petition to the ATA management should be asking for. We the petitioners, petition the ATA for X, Y and Z. I have my list of the top 3-5 changes that I plan on posting after many others American Trapshooter members and non-members post their perceptions on the top changes that might revive a dying ATA. For the time being, I don't want my perceptions to bias the perceptions of others.

Saving the ATA is not about me; agent orange, chronic Lyme disease and a detached retina have taken the fun out of shooting. It's about reviving a dying organization that has in the past given many of us, a lot of fun and good memories. I would like future generations to have the opportunity to do the same. If changes can revive the ATA, why not put our collective minds together and fight instead of throwing in the ATA towel. I might be wrong, but I believe that if the ATA goes under, the cost of shells, components, targets and other shooting related items will increase and it will probably have a negative impact on suppliers and gun clubs.

I have listed below,
excerpts from three recent threads that caught my attention:

Brad Dysinger - While this singular "save Sparta" mentality has been going on clubs all over the United States have been closing.

Dave Berlet - Brad I don't believe that there are less shooters, just less ATA shooters.

User 1 - I felt like I had an honest chance at winning something worth the time and effort.

WPT - The ATA ED, EC and many of the BOD do nothing to benefit the membership but they take good care of each other and the rest of the Good Ol' Boys club

User 1 - It doesn't take people long to lose their delusion that the "ATA" can be "changed" under the current system/by-laws ..... But, good luck to anyone willing to try .....

Garry - How about an on-line certified petition signed by thousands of trapshooters demanding that the current flawed process for implementing changes to rules, policies and practices be repealed and replace immediately with a new change request process that requires complete accountability, requires complete transparency and would truly put the membership back in control by letting the members vote on the requested changes.

WPT - Make up the proposal, I will gladly sign it and contribute to getting it enforced ...

Garry - wpt, in my area there are several trap clubs that have already closed, and more are on the brink of closing because of a lack of trap shooters. Some of these clubs have never thrown an ATA target.

Garry - I suspect there are several reasons for the decline in ATA membership and the decline in the number of ATA targets thrown. The world is changing whether we like it or not. What troubles me the most about the ATA management team is I have not seen a detailed action plan on the ATA website identifying who is going to do what by when, to reverse the negative impact these changes are having on trapshooting - both registered and non-registered. I would like to think that the EC, BOD and the ED would be working overtime to produce such action plan and then put it on the ATA website for all to see. But it appears they have no interest in doing so or maybe they are just incompetent.

Garry - Tell me the top 3-5 changes, that would significantly increase the number of active ATA shooters and the number of ATA targets thrown annually, if these changes could be magically implemented today.

oleolliedawg - Plenty of Trapshooting takes place but not so much ATA

oleolliedawg - More and more shooters are on fixed incomes and reluctant to fork over an additional $4/round for what amounts to over-priced practice.

oleolliedawg - Put the focus back on what made Trapshooting great (money) and we may have a chance. Keep treading water like today and we'll eventually sink!

Garry - FrankL, I can only answer for myself, but yes, I want the ATA to survive by growing the membership and increasing the number of ATA targets thrown annually. I believe that if changes can be made to make this happen it would be great for those currently shooting ATA targets, those who are considering shooting ATA targets and those who have no interest in shooting ATA targets.

BMW - The economy is booming

Larry - Perhaps more than the economy has influence on how many shoot...

WPT - The economy is only one small piece of the puzzle

Jon Reitz - Develop alternative clay target sources. Increased clay target cost is the biggest factor in escalating target fees; ATA or otherwise.

 

Garry,
There you have it, run with it and make things happen ... Once things (if things) start happening you will gather more people on board than you will know what to do with ... The problems started before the move to Sparta with a few less than genius moves by the ATA, one year they limited the entry's so no body showed up ...lol ... Honest ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The problem isn't WHAT changes some members want ..... It the the HOW to get any changes, with the current self-serving money grabbers in power, and NO WAY to remove them .....

There was an effort to vote out "Pipe Layer" ..... didn't work under the current rules/by-laws .....

Many hours of research, then put on display the corrupt actions of "PULL 2012", and even report it to the Illinois AG and IRS ..... no action or "changes" .....

Many hours devoted to put on public display the improper "gun gift", that was hidden from the members for many years ..... only "change", a closed door adjustment of the by-laws from the self-serving money grabbers .....

Many hours spent on a public display of the "Sparta lease", "MOU 1", "MOU 2", and all the "save Sparta at any cost" garbage ..... the leader of the "fantastic direction" gets a pay increase .....

And more ..... there is NOT DOUBT the current self-serving money grabbers know what is on this forum ..... so, if you consider the many hours some have spent here as your "online petition", you can see there will not be much future interest in a different format for a "petition" .....

God Bless the person or persons who can figure out how to "change the ATA", but in my opinion a replacement to the ATA is the best bet in my lifetime .....

 

1. Encourage all new shooter you meet to shoot ATA, at least local and state shoot.
2. Support the sport by shooting at all venues you can afford including Sparta.
3. Stop preaching the demise of trap shooting and encourage it.
4. Let's call out the old boys EC as we have been doing on this site. New members do not care about the EC but those in the know should highlight all their failures.
5. Stop throwing soft targets at major shoots. Do like New York and let the big boys earn it. Note that in the history of ALL shoots in NY there was only one 100 straight from the 27 yds. What's up with the other states,including Ohio, that 100s from the 27 yds seems to be a daily occurrence??

 

User 1, the members have voiced a lot of Wants since I have been a member of this website. It's my understanding that for a petition to have the desired results, it should be limited in scope. We the petitioners, petition the ATA to do X, Y and Z.
I would really appreciate some more input from others, on their opinion of what the top 3-5 changes have the greatest potential for reviving the ATA, before a petition is drafted.

User 1, are you or do you know someone who is developing on a replacement plan that identifies who is going to do what by when?

 

Garry,
DRAIN The SWAMP, replace all of the EC, the ED and many of the BOD who support the EC, ED, and things as they are doing besides voting as they are told by the EC and or ED so motions carry ... There have been a few MEN of Honor with the highest degree of Integrity brought in by the EC only to be shown the door in a day or a few days later any way ... Those men would of done to the ATA like Trump is doing to Politics and ripped them a new asshole, so they had to be gone ... There are to few on the BOD to make a stand and or a difference because they do not have the numbers ... Pipe Layer got his hat handed to him in an election and he refused to give up the seat, the ATA did nothing because he is one of the SUCK UP ass kissers waiting in line for a gun he would never be able to afford otherwise ... He (Pipe Layer) commented one time that the Martins didn't donate enough to even buy a new pick up truck, they are the Sponsors of the grand and donate big time because that's the type of people they are ... Be careful of the Toes you step on, they might be connected to the ass you got to kiss someday ...
Wonder if PIPE LAYER knows if Mr.Bill Martin said for him to be gone, he would be gone no questions asked ... The EC, ED and many on the BOD are LEECHES sucking the blood out of the organization that was once one of the Highest regarded organizations in all of trapshooting ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The EC should be elected by votes of life members. I suggest life members because they have invested in the ATA and should be more informed.

 

I can tell you that I spend many hours each week talking to those interested in "developing on a replacement plan", via phone and private cyber-chat .....

I can also tell you that where I live, I can shoot seven days a week at shoots not involving the ATA, or not driving more than fifty miles one way ..... That makes it hard to get much of an interest in any type of larger organized events, when people can get their Trapshooting desires filled without the politics .....

In short, the "by when" will most likely be after the demise of the current ATA ..... That should not take as long as some may think ..... given the dramatic decline in ATA shoot participation is always viewed as other factors in the eyes of the current ATA leadership .....

 

It was the money that brought the people and shooters.

 

Garry I tried to make changes, went to the Grand to speak at the meeting, was not allowed to, had to be put on the Agenda, Our Ohio State Delegate at the time was as useful as Tits on a Boar Hog, he is one of the in line to be President and does not want to upset his chances to get a gun, I was bashed, and pummeled at my ideas, the #3 hole target settings at 50 yards, discontinuance of the 1250 fps targets, go to std 1200fps shells. Got booted twice from the other forum, Lies from N1H1, best known for his Graphs of nothing relevant, un-proved, has not yet patterned a Ceasar Guerini Full, X-Full choke tubes, brags about patterning at 13 yards w/cyl bore, not trying the Target breaking distances, He alone Delegated the Target Changes and Legal 1320 fps shells, 1250 + or - 90fps BS, his doing, Stabbed one of the BEST ATA Presidents in Recent History Neal Causaby of TEXAS, in the back, writing the delegates to back his planning of the changes w/o permission or knowledge of the ATA, by using the backdoor approach. So much more has my BP up again even thinking about it.

I like the Petetion did not say anything so it could get started, I did not want it to be stopped by avoiding it.

Gary Bryant Life Member ATA 50 year member....................................Dr.longshot

 

One man cannot make the changes, We Need a TREMENDOUS VOTING POWER TO CHANGE DELEGATES, TO MEN WITH INTEGRITY, & HONESTY. The way the ATA was run in the beginning from at least 1925, that donated their time and money to acquire the Vandalia Home Grounds. Companies like National Cash Register. was a leader, plus some others. Read the ATA History to learn how it was,

The LIFE MEMBERS Had to approve selling Vandalia, Moving to Sparta, The BOD took our POWER away in 1955 I believe, by making changes to the Bylaws, and giving the power to the EC Board, Etc.

What the HELL does IT do to be a Life Member LIFE MEMBER anymore. The Early Members Had Voting Power, ask Dave Berlet, Brad Dysinger, Neal Causaby, Gene Sears, Hugh McKinley, Vic Reindeers, and many others.

Gary Bryant.................................Dr.longshot

 

WE Owned Vandalia, The HOF, we own Jack Sh*t now, our coffers were pilfered, don't get me started.

GB.........................DLS

 

LIKE HELL I WILL....I need all the friends I can get.

 

You guys are still batting zero. If you discussed any of these proposed changes in order to tempt a prospect to join the ATA, they would give you a “deer in the headlights” stare and wonder what the hell you are talking about. If you want to increase membership, give up trying to destroy windmills and take a prospect to a trap shoot. Loan him a gun, shells, pay for his first year membership for ATA and State and pay for one entry fee for an event. You are trying to sell some things people do not have any familiarity with or would not understand as a newbie.

 

Bring back the Industry class. if you do nothing but shoot, hold clinics and are sponsored by ammo manufacturers, get free guns and equipment--you are a professional-just shoot with other professionals--and change the namer from Amateur to American Trapshooters Association

 

635G

I would think by now as long as you have been around you would know by now, an non profit organization with a 503 c 3 exemption from the IRS cannot have a paid professional class within that organization. The IRS will not allow it.

 

But they are paid--just start a a new category/class or what ever your want to call it

 

Paid by who? Shell manufacturers with free shells? Those are endorsements from the manufacturers. Somehow they think by telling people some champion is a winnner because he or she uses their brand will sell more shells. More fairy tales many believe true.

 

PT Barnum-"a sucker is born everyday". Not a history buff are you?

 

I don’t know if you are a sucker or not, but that is not Important to this conversation. If you want a”pro” class, contact the IRS and find out how we can establish it. That is all the history we need. Something that happened decades ago is not relevant to helping me break one more target today. Flap your gums and wallow at your leasure. The rest of the world will pass you by.

 

Or just relegate them to putting on exhibitions for us mere mortals--

 

635G

Why don’t you eat an amendment to the rules before the BOD, “anybody with a AAA27AAA classification is is removed from the membership?”

 

I don't really give a rats ass-since I never play any options and I never declare for category--again what really pisses me off that my custom made Infinity had the wrong grip for me when compared to my 391 conversion

The grip to trigger on the 391--is 31/4"--the grip to trigger on my Infinity is 4"--that is why lots of time my finger slipped of the trigger as I was moving the gun to the target

Looking for advice how to reduce the distance--rat grip looks like the only alternative

 

Use golf handle tape. That's what we used in the old days. Brad

 

My question is it really true that some in a position of authority have actually compromised elections,bank assignment; and the integrity of the scoring system? If any of the these items have happened it is no wonder that our sport is in trouble. It just seems that we are living in a time frame of what can I do for me and not necessarily to promote the future and growth of a sport that many of us love and enjoy. This is just only my opinion and I hope that no one is doing, or has done anything to comprise our trapshooting sport..

Dave Berlet

 

Dave,

YOU bring up a very valid point on compromised elections. Several years ago, a DELEGATE intentionally had KIDS vote for him who had just became members of the ATA the day before. No Paper or Hard card in hand from Vandalia, but allowed to vote for him just the same.

I submitted a written protest on behalf of the looser (by 6 votes), only to find out by John Norris that IF a vote for Delegate or other official were found to be wronged, the voting for that position would be "NULL AND VOID", and the Sitting Delegate / Official would retain his position for the next year.

I tried to have this ruling changed to no avail...Any delegate can cheat his way into winning an election each and every year with this rule.

I have not followed up on this rule, so IF it has been changed, I would like to know. Thanks !

 

The ATA Allows Top Shooters be paid by giving classes, is that not being Paid? Does the Ammunition Mfgrs Have to give a list of Shooters receiving Shells, If Not, Why Not. List of Shooters having LOANER GUNS, Like Ljutic and Dean Townsend of the Central Handicap Committee was doing, Now this was/is an ATA Official that was doing it, Ljutic asked for it back a few years later, I KNOW THAT TO BE A FACT, HE also Stated it at shoots.

GB.................................DLS

 

Make most ATA shoots 50/50/50 targets and the larger shoots 100/100/100 targets. Make all shells 1 oz. or maybe even 7/8's. Mandatory reductions, minimum handicap at 20 yards for everyone. Reduce practice costs. The more practice one does, the better one gets, the more interested they may become in shooting tournaments. Most shooting is about money and time. ERGO: Reduce cost everywhere possible, and we may grow and retain the recreational shooter. Reduce the time it takes to shoot in one day shoots, and maybe, retain some shooters, as well as gain shooters..

 

If you charge a fee to Train/Help/shooters/charge seminars/ YOU ARE A PRO/INDUSTRY REP, You are a MFGR and give/donate/loan a gun to a shooter you report it Immeaditly to the ATA, That person is now a PRO/INDUSTRY REP, You are a Mfgr of Shells and donate/Give, Flats of shells to a shooter/ You report that shooter to the ATA/he becomes a PRO INDUSTRY REP, no exceptions. A Mfgr pays for a trip to a shoot/Ball Game/Golf Game/Horse Race/ he is a PRO Industry Rep, no exceptions. Any XFER of anything of value You are a PRO?Industry Rep. no exceptions.

An ATA/Pres/Vice Pres/Treasurer/ EC/ BOD/Delagate,/ CHC/ Shoot Director/ gets enumerated any way You Lose Your TITLE &/Position Immeaditly/
No Hearing/FIRED/

This may not be STIFF ENOUGH PENALTY/BANNED FROM ATA FOREVER.

GB............................DLS

 

Most trapshooters I know simply want to meet the challenge of breaking trap targets, the more the better, and to keep the personal bests coming in a steady manner. They are not concerned with organized competition (ATA) and competing directly against other shooters....they themselves are their biggest competition.

 

I heard a rumor that the EC was thinking of some more changes to the AA points and trophy winners list. keep looking for the new lists. Roger C.

 

Really who Gives a Sh*t on those easy 48 yard targets, 30 degree at best angles, xxxxx Points. That is the Problem w/the ATA points system, freeby points.

GB..........................DLS

 

Do away with all $$ options--just pay prize $$ thats included with the entry fees--all you need is some over zealous DA--to say the sport is promoting gambling and hang on for a rough ride

 

Heck, I've known a few DA's and Judges over the years that always played the options. Alright, I've only played this game for over 54 years so what would I know. If you don't want to play simply shoot trinkets only! Already one more notch in the demise of Trapshooting because the cheap or non-competitive professional practice shooters will quit in droves.