What if the ATA makes the change?

In a recent discussion regarding the angle and distance of targets most were in agreement that even if the ATA did reinstate the 3 hole 50 yard target the clubs would ignore it to keep shooters happy. Do you think if the ATA made the change at all shoots they have direct control over such as the grand and satellite grands then anyone wanting to be competitive at these shoots would be forced into practicing with the correct settings on the machines? Then eventually most clubs would fall in line? Thoughts?

 

Who would ignore it?

 

WS, why should we believe it would work this time when that same rule was violated all across the country including our own ATA officials? For several years that group was camp runamuck till the official rule was changed thinking that cheating practice was the best thing ever to come down trap shootings pike!

Without strict rule enforcement via ATA for rule breakers at the club and membership level, no concern equals no consequences?

HAP

 

Agree Hap, thinking if the shooters that attended the bigger shoots had to shoot three hole 50 yard targets they would have to shoot them somewhere to get ready. Granted most would probably gravitate to local shoots with no significant ATA presence.

 

I doubt the ATA will ever change the rule, as HAP says, it is unenforceable. Shooters voted the last time with their wallets. Your average shooters want to shoot good scores and will patronize clubs where they shoot good scores and abandon those where they don't.

 

All of our rules have to be enforced. This isn't just about angles and target length. It is about shell speed. It is about keeping records. It is about actually shooting at the targets that were recorded. It is about the one thing our sport's leaders lack.

It is about integrity.

 

Let's be honest.

The ATA almost certainly isn't even considering going backwards. Frankly, why should they? Despite the noise caused by a handful of people, there's no real evidence that easier targets was the primary factor that caused diminishing participation. Like Hap said, the rule wasn't enforced in the past and almost nobody is pushing for it now. Clubs that want to throw 3-hole targets can do so.

Consider also that roughly 50% of ATA shooters today don't even know what a 3-hole target is. Half of the other 50% will likely die before their next driver's license expires. So the huge "problem" which exists in the minds of some is going to be ancient history soon enough (actually it already is, except on this forum).

Those who feel today's incredibly easy targets are a huge problem should take advantage of it. Just attend as many big ATA shoots as possible and play all the options. Simply don't miss any of the fluffers and nobody can ever beat you. We should all have such problems.

-Gary

 

Gary you started out with the saying

then you made the false statement

All this shows me you are merely defending the position of your pal Neil, the worst president in the history of the ATA.

 

"Those who feel today's incredibly easy targets are a huge problem should take advantage of it. Just attend as many big ATA shoots as possible and play all the options. Simply don't miss any of the fluffers and nobody can ever beat you. We should all have such problems."

You may want to attend some large shoots to find out people are already doing this ..... When a 20 dollar option pays 10 .... you have a problem.

 

That statistic which I assume was given to you by Neil, shows that we have lost 2/3 of our members. That is all that is left. Thank him and his pals for their leadership.

 

FG: Why is the statement false? I've shot ATA at clubs that throw straightaways from post 1 and 5. Nobody says a word about it. By the way, I've never met Neil and wouldn't know him if he shook my hand. I do, however, respect the gentlemanly way he debates and how he backs up his statements with facts and admits when he's wrong. I also get a lot of laughs at how Dr. Mediumshot spends tortured nights thinking about him and dreaming up new ways to assassinate his character.

User 1: If you attend big shoots, play all the options and miss no targets you will make money. Let's not be silly.

-Gary

 

If the big shoots would follow ATA guide lines then I feel that the local clubs would also.

 

Ken, I'd agree with that IF those parameters were enforced at all ATA point shoots,, by ATA??

I think back to how Neil W. said his friend, whom he helped, set targets at the Grand in the early 80s? 34 degree angles at 48 yards. He also has stated that since his venture into registered ATA trapshooting he'd never shot 44 degree angles anywhere and he began in 1982??

Why did we do away with those setting in the first place and what makes us believe they would be followed today? Those and many other unnecessary changes in addition? Way too many to attempt fixing in todays world. The only change I'd expect, if there's ever another change at all, it will be for the little guy to be able to break more targets.

HAP

 

Really Gary,
Enlighten us with the major shoots you have attended that throw those targets.

 

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said "major shoots." Some clubs have ATA shoots at which they throw straightaways from 1 & 5. That's a fact and I stand by it.

-Gary

 

Gary,
Now you say:

Sure Gary now that you have backed out of the statement please tell us about the clubs that throw the 50 yard targets like that for ATA events. I am sure there is a bunch. As you corrected yourself they aren't major shoots. So tell us about them. Tell us about your experience shooting at those clubs. Give us those shoots. Must be a bunch,

How does Brian Williams do at those shoots?

 

Never said major shoots, never said 50 yard targets, never backed out of anything, and it is dishonest of you to imply that I did. If you want to debate, retract your false statements and be honest.

-Gary

 

Come on Gary.......name the shoots.

They are not in the state of Delaware, Maryland, or New Jersey. So how far are you driving to those ATA tournament 3 hole targets?

 

Gary, he is just baiting you into an argument.

He is a master at his craft.

 

I will agree that easy targets are what the average ATA shooter of today wants, saying that the 70 per cent that the ATA has lost didn't. Money shooters want hard targets and few ties. We like green backs and silver for winning scores, not phony feel good scores. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that.

Gary I shot Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, and PA shoots many times, probably before you new what a trap shoot was. Del had only a handful of clubs back then but now has 1. Maryland clubs through 3 hole 50 yard targets every club when I lived in Maryland into really bad backgrounds. You can check my scores but after shooting those hard targets all summer I always shot my best at Vandalia.

So did a lot of eastern shooters, Frank Little, Kay, and too many others to name. Look it up, check the box scores. It was to my benefit to shoot those hard targets, the shooters who were shooting easy targets all year were at a disadvantage and were the ones who did the most bitching. Those bitchers came mostly from the upper Midwest, Iowa, Minnesota, South Dakota and Nebraska. This is the real 2 hole country.

Brad

 

Brad, does CC throw three hole targets, that being a straight from 1&5, or really close to it?

 

No, The only thing in the rules allowed me was to throw 50 yard 9 1/2 ft. The scores wouldn't have been as high with 3 hole. Doubles were too short to suit me at the Cardinal shoots last year. Floppers mostly, they needed more spring and set higher for the average shooter. Hopefully this year Luke will can the radar gun for the doubles too. Brad

 

Gee whiz!!! You guys get really pissy if someone disagrees with you.I don't really have a dog in this fight but I am old enough to have shot the God Sent three hole targets when I started this stupid game.I think 1972 was the year.I remember seeing the likes of Britt Robinson,Larry Gravestock,the Ragland's,Niki Jeter,Randi Hapgood and some other really great shooters of that period.My point being is that they didn't give a tinkers damn as to what the angle or speed the targets were.They just broke em' any way!Why whould you want to regress in the history of this sport to go back to the 70's.If that's the case then grow your hair long and shaggy,get you some bell bottoms and a model 12 and start your own Trap Association.I can't for the life of me see what was so special about the Yesteryear of trap.I shoot a little ATA now and then and poorly I might add but I still try my best however lack luster that may be.You folks are way yonder more advanced than me for I am ignorant of the facts of why the ATA changed and why you folks are so pissed about it.I hope that some day we can all just get along and be happy!I really don't see that happening any time soon but one can hope.If you would like to flame me or discuss this,IT WON'T COST YOU A DIME! Opinions are just like ahole's,we all have one and they generally stink!Tony Fox

 

A #2 bar in a Pat Trap doesn't always mean a two hole target. It varies from trap to trap.

 

Wow, this has turned out to be a pretty interesting thread. I hope more old-schoolers will post their thoughts.

-Gary

 

Basketball has just reduced the 35 second rule to 30 seconds to toughen up Basketball Scoring, they made it tougher, but the ATA likes to make it an easier sport, it not much of a sport as it used to be. You want tough targets, Sporting Clays is your game and the young kids Love it. They like the challenge too, everybody shoots the same targets.

Just a stroke from the ATA presidents pen would enforce the 50yd, 44 degree angle target for 2015 target year, and every year thereafter.
Dr.longshot

 

$5,000 fine for the club not throwing the 50yd 44 degree angle would enforce it.
Dr.longshot

 

Sounds like everybody, even those yelling the loudest here are afraid to try it themselves. ATA doesn't stop any club from throwing 3 hole targets. Why is CC even afraid to do this at a big shoot if everyone there thinks 3 hole is the answer?

Only reason I can think of is fear numbers will be reduced. I believe that is the reason, and it applies to ATA just as much as local clubs and the CC.

 

If the bar is marked correctly it will throw a 2 hole target. If not check the measurement of that bar. A number 2 bar measures 27/8 inches. Attached is from the Pat Trap book.

 

If shooters find the target too difficult, you won't see them returning. They bitch & moan about them but the powder puff targets produce good scores. Singles, hd'cap & doubles..the clubs set them to keep the shooters happy and if they aren't happy, they don't come back. If they don't return, the income decreases unless the prices escalate, the crowds decrease due to poor scores or increasing prices to make up for less shooters and the clubs are forced to close their doors as an outcome. Now, just what do you want?

 

Bat- - -3 hole targets would be illegal. One nice things about Brad and the CC throwing the 50 yard target is that it kept the 27 yarders from dominating.

Ken- - - that is a great illustration of how easy is would be to change the field.

 

If all clubs followed the 3 hole 50 yard rule shooters will shoot it. The playing field is level. No choice.

 

From the rule book "No target is to be declared illegal unless it is significantly outside normal parameters
(e.g., more than 10 degrees outside normal)."

Two hole 17 degrees off center
Three hole 22 degrees off center (5 degrees outside normal)
3 hole is legal with room to spare

 

Wishbone, you did not add the additional 5 degrees outside of that which would would be legal in the previous 3 hole setting. Previously targets could fall outside of the straightaways from station 1 and 5.

Mandate that all should shoot it again.

 

Thanks Wishbone, kinda expected that would have to be pointed out.

Hell, from a Post-5 perspective, a 3-hole hard right target is equivalent to 44 degrees, and it is perfectly legal.

 

I think we still shoot 3 hole targets a fair bit of the time.

Most don't mind or can't tell the difference.

 

Ken, that is a picture of an early "G" Pat Trap. The newer "G" uses the bar. I guess my point is lots of clubs are throwing three hole targets from a #2 (2 7/8) bar. Nothing wrong with that. I shot for 20 years and didn't know the difference and I will bet many shooters don't know now. I don't know how many times I have watched the squad before me shoot and see straights from one and five and my squad mates don't know how to tell if it is a two or three. Leo taught me to "shoot what comes out of the house and don't think about it" Watch targets at shoots you go to, CC, Sparta, Mississippi, where ever, and you will see field width variations on the traps.

 

Attached is the newer style Pat Trap

 

Sorry for the post of the old style Pats. I'm old and its a Monday. What can I say.

 

You had good intentions Ken, that's what counts

 

Ken
Diagram #91 shows you need a spacer bar of 4 1/4 inches for a 2 hole target. What size bar would you need for a 3 hole bar and how hard is that changeover?

 

Family Guy that would be 5 1/4 inch bar. When changing bars you need to set the angel on one side so it would be 44 degree then move the other switch and place the bar in. Like they say if the field is to far one way or the other shift it over the other way it is simple. Just don't be in a hurry.

 

Brad,
The upper mid west is where we found one hole targets and no interrupters. This was back in the early and mid 90's. I'm sure Neil was shooting back then, maybe that is why he never seen three hole targets. Roger

 

I'm with you Rodger. Brad

 

If 44 degree angles were bad, 34 degree angles are good, wouldn't those 1 hole 7 degree semi-straights be better yet? Just think of all the hunerts that could be shot on those babies!!

So much for certifying trap interrupters n such for registered targets?

HAP

 

Family Guy, you don't need a bar for a three hole. Mark the sides of the L and R switches with a sharpie in case the bar slides and you lose your reference point. Then just slide the switches outward ½" each way and you have wider angles, still legal. Back to the two hole? Just slide the switches back to the bar. The switches should be "just loose" enough to slide but not on their own, but use a sharpie.

There is a small club in Indiana that threw 1½ hole targets, the owner took the hand set traps to a machine shop and had another hole drilled and tapped between the 1 and 2 hole.

 

"There is a small club in Indiana that threw 1½ hole targets, the owner took the hand set traps to a machine shop and had another hole drilled and tapped between the 1 and 2 hole."

320090T, that would amount to straights from posts 2 and 4. That same setting can and has been done on Pat traps too at one club I know for sure. ATA registered targets too!

Did that small club throw ATA targets or just fun shooting?

HAP

 

ATA targets for a long, long time. Now, off of Pat Traps but probably not as narrow as the handsets.

 

I was in the trap business. I made top plates with 6 no. 2 holes up for clubs especially to give them more life out of their equipment.
I also sold top plates with 6 no. 3 holes as some clubs never went to the 2 hole. I never made top plates with 1 or 1 1/2 holes.
Would not it be nice if all trap clubs and shooters played by the rules. I guess some are born to cheat, I feel sorrow for those among us with no self pride or integrity. Roger C.

 

Clipperite, It doesn't matter what the previous rule was regarding 3 hole targets and the allowable variance outside the normal max.

The statement was that a 3 hole target would be legal by today's rules. That is a correct statement. If clubs chose to throw a 3 hole equivalent target there would be some instances where a slightly deviant target would be outside the preferred target area, and would be considered 'illegal'. However, under the 'NO TARGET' rule if your target is 'illegal' and you shoot, the results are scored. That is the rule.

I happen to have a 2005 rule book in my desk. At that point the preferred target was 34 degrees, but a legitimate target was 84 degrees (17 + 25 degrees either side of the centerline). I suspect the 'legitimate' target definition was a carry over from the 44 degree legal target days.

 

I think by the old rules it was 44 Degrees plus 7 degrees outside, If I am Correct it could be 51 degrees and still be legal target. I do not know about your ADDITION of 17+25=42

 

Iowa guy is correct it was (17 + 25 degrees either side of the center line)

Before that it in the good old days (22 + 25 degrees either side of the center line)

And a height between 8 & 12 feet, 10 yards from the trap.

Basically if it you could get the target out of the trap it was legal.

You should know what the old target setting standard was if you want to return to it. LOL

 

There are many clubs that do not have a bench mark for the 8 to 10 foot pole for setting height. Tucson T$S is one of them. I think the ATA should address this violation of the rules. When clubs start breaking the rules and are not corrected by the ATA they will then start ignoring all the rules. Every rule is of the same importance, none should be ignored. Roger C.

 

Rodger,

Aren't some clubs going to the radar gun and distance thus eliminating the height pole?

Using those two in combination are the target heights within the 8 -10 ft specs?

 

The 2006 rules narrowed the outside normal extreme angle to just 10 degrees, making the setting at 17 degrees + 10 on each side of the 50 yard center stake.

Here's the ATA flights and angles rules from 1934, printed in a book put out by Hercules Powder.

 

Using those 1934 rules certainly looks like it would drop some scores today!

 

Leonidas,
That will not work. If a height pole is not used, the targets will be different on every trap. The radar gun, and the protractor they used to set the height with are two of the worst things that have ever happened to our game.
Neil,
I also set targets in Vandalia back in the late 70's and early 80's. We would dry fire the machine 5 times and then set a straight away after using the height pole at 10 ft. Then we would make the target land on the 48 yd. line. If needing to we would then reset the height. If target was still landing on the 48 yd. line we put machine in the three hole and moved on.
We new that after the machine throw a few targets the spring woukd warm up and threw 50 yd. targets. Roger

 

Agreed, Thanks for your answer.

 

My first year there I was having coffee in my uncles trailer at the fare east end of the campground. I wondered WTH that Tink, Tink, Tink sound was. Stepped outside to see Mr. Webb, I hadn't met him yet, turns out he was a friend of my uncles, and his crew setting the targets for the day. That sound was the target hitting the bar at 10'.

Funny how the thought of just that sound alone can bring back such fond memories.

Shooting almost all our targets for the year in PA, those targets set by the crew at VANDALIA turned out to be the best targets we shot.

BTW, for all you TROLL LURKERS from that old site, that was the year and those were the 3 hole targets that got me 3rd place in the Preliminary Handicap on Thursday of Grand week. 97 from the 24.5 ...98 was high. Six way tie with the 97's. Missed 2 in the shoot offs. Third place.

For all the good guys on this, the new site, don't pay any attention to that part about my scores and trophy. I just put it on there to piss off the TROLLS.

Flyersarebest, But I'm Still a Trap Shooter

 

Neil could not have set the targets in the 1970s he did not belong to the ATA until 1983, that is all bullsh*t from Neil, they actually would throw a shorter target, the rubber bands would stretch on the Pat Trap.

 

You might want to re-read Rogers last paragraph and then change your response

 

Around here most clubs set the trap with a electronic level at 21 degree and a radar gun to set speed at 41 to 43 mph. On a calm day this will give you 49 to 51 yard targets. Now this setting is for calm days. The height may need to be adjusted up or down depending on wind direction just like when doing it with the stick. I know when I was involved in setting targets at the state shoot we used the level and the stick for setting height. When using the stick you needed to have abase at the 10 yard mark the same height as the throwing arm. You need to shoot grade with a transit to get this.

 

Longshot...Give it up...The ATA will never go back to 3 hole targets.The American shooter wants easy targets.
The Cardinal Center is a great place to shoot, but remember it is a business and both you and Brad know it needs to make money to survive.

 

Leonidas,
They did not have the rubber band back then. This is another poor decision made by our equipment manufactures. The origonal rubber bands came off of an exercise machine. They were not invented by anyone in the trap business. I looked at the process 2 years before Pat trap installed them on their machines. It was not a good idea then and it is not now.
I did not want the process to throw targets with. Do you know how much money I would have made converting all of the government springs to rubber bands.

 

Two Dogs,
I assume that you either own or manage a gun club. What have you done to try and improve you attendance? Easy targets may attract a few want to be's, but you probable ran off some of your better shooters. Easy targets are not the answer to greater attendance, if it were you would be swamped with trap shooters. The bottom line depends one more than one thing. Roger C.

 

Why play by the rules? Who would enforce that?

 

NASCAR and NFL are enforcing rules that are not related to their sport, but are related to COMMON DECENCY, and CHILD WELFARE, I respect them for that. I hope the ATA does the same thing in our sport, They fell down on enforcing their rules and regulations. Were led down a ROSY path by a past president w/phony graphs and poor information, that tried to turn a competitive sport into one of perfection, that we will have a hell of time to bring back. Is it true that Stock Makers and gun manufacturers are supporting the narrow short targets? To inflate their sales? For the perfection side of the sport of trapshooting? Time will tell. Info came from a Midwest reliable source
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I haven't heard that before, do you have any proof?

Thanks

 

Change???? Never will happen.

When's the last time you heard someone admit they were wrong??


Regards....Gerald

 

Pat Ireland Feb 2009 wrote, that while scoring, he only saw 2-3 hard angle targets out of 125 thrown. He had opinions that the target angles should be wider to be competitive, Pat was a great shooter, and told it like it was, before his passing.

Gary Bryant Dr.Longshot

 

Gerald: Change has to happen or this sport of trapshooting ATA targets is doomed, only non registered targets will be thrown and shot
Dr.longshor

 

Badactor,
We enforce the rules on ourselves, that is what an honorable man does. If he does not he should be ashamed to look in a mirror while shaving. Roger C.