How about a trap event with a delayed (slow) target release.

Might help shooters look harder for the target.

Ed Yanchok

 

delay built in the Pat Traps now available on voice release or hand pulled


GB...........................DLS

 

If memory serves me right. 0-3 sec.

 

I think that's a fixed delay. I was referring to a variable delay, like international skeet, 0 to 3 second delay on every release.

 

Great idea ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

First off, unfortunately, this is another idea which will never see the light of day in ATA trapshooting since any such change would be shunned, as usual, by the old guard.
Having said that, I have shot quite a bit of International Skeet (not competitively). As most of you probably know, International Skeet is shot with a low gun and a random release delay of up to 3 seconds. For me, once I had shot it a bit, I found it a welcome and nice change.
When shooting regulation trap, skeet or bunker one of the important elements is not jumping, or kind of pre-flinching, when you call for the bird and subconsciously "anticipate." We all know what I mean. When you kind of move the gun in anticipation and the bird goes the other direction or comes out with a different timing.
When you shoot International Skeet that is not an issue. You put your gun barrel end and bead where you want it to pick up the bird (much like sporting clays) and then shift your eyes back to the house and call for the bird. Then you try to kind of zen/relax ready to pounce. (Its also a bit like when a dog is on point and you move in ready to take on whatever happens.) The visual image of the bird (and sound of the trap) then "triggers" your move to the target.
It can be argued (and I guess I am arguing it here) that it makes the game easier. You don't have to expect/anticipate the target at an exact instant - that can actually vary by milliseconds for any number of reasons (like the length and tone of your call).
I think a delayed release would make trap a better and more interesting game. And, I think it could actually make it easier. Honest, I do think that.
I also think, as I stated at the start, the chances of the ATA instituting a delayed release is exactly zero.
Regards, Jake

 

I agree. It would be nice to mix things up a bit. I love trap, and it’s my best shotgun sport. That said, it gets a little repetitive at times. That’s why I like to change it up a bit with sporting clays or skeet. It would be great to add other trap games to the mix. Low gun delay would be fun, maybe an official wobble game or games such as double wobble.

 

Forty, first off, welcome to the forum of red badge of shame and expulsion refugees.
I just wanted to say I was not necessarily linking the delayed release with a low gun. I am not opposed to it as an event. But trapshooting sprang from shooting trapped birds from out of multiple boxes in front of the shooters. Now HB and/or several others can correct me, but I believe it was always done with a high gun. I have seen old pictures and even some very old moving pictures and it was always done with a high gun.
I like our tradition and game, but I think a delayed release alone would be much like the original game where the box simply dropped away from the bird and it took wing. Obviously, that would not be exactly the same and instantaneous every time.
Regards, Jake

 

We used to shoot games on Friday evening and the puller always was told that they can delay up to 3 seconds which kind of put them at ease because they knew it was for money ... I do not recall anyone of the shooters ever turning down a target on a "slow pull"and there were many that went beyond the 3 seconds ... Personally, I think it was good practice for registered shoots ... Taught you not to move until you see the target ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Thank you. It’s nice to be here among fellow trap shooters. Speaking of, I really hope the weather cooperates in VA and I can get out to shoot my new to me K32. Oh the agony of anticipation. Haha.

Agree on all points. I love the history of trap and it’s connection to live bird shooting and hunting. I’m also an upland hunter. New variations of trap added as officially sanctioned games would be very welcome to keep the sport fresh and appeal to new shooters. I’d love to see them perhaps first as exhibition events at state shoots and later as official events as people come to accept and enjoy them competitively.

 

One of our local shooters broke a 100 in one leg of a Doubles marathon recently and won a local ATA shoot last weekend with a 98. He always shoots gun down and quite well at that.

 

That was you, oleo ? wow!

 

Of course it wasn't me. I don't make claims I can't possibly back up. Now Artur, just bring along your gun and some lunch money for a few hundred trap Singles-just you and me. I guarantee you'll go home hungry.

 

Both live bird and clay target shooting started with low gun. And when the first governing body for trapshooting, the National Gun Association, adopted rules the gun was to be held "below the arm-pit."

Low gun was assumed from the old Hurlingham (English) live bird rules and was the accepted rule in early clay pigeon shooting.

​

This rule stood until the early 1890s when the American Shooting Association, the second governing body for the game, changed the rule, permitting the gun to held in any fashion by the shooter. I believe this allowed the choice of low gun or calling with a shouldered gun.

​

The Interstate Association, the third governing body, continued utilizing the American Shooting Association gun rule allowing the shooter to to hold it in any position he chose.Here's their rules from 1899.

​

For over a century, one old rule after another that made trap shooting more sporty have been abandoned, making the game less difficult and more monotonous.

There have been times when leaders attempted to introduce more challenging targets. The old "Joker" traps during Grand American tournaments were always in action with many spectators watching great shooters miss those fast, wide and long targets.

Past ATA President George McCarty, while Eastern Zone V.P. attempted to introduce a "Grouse Event" at the 1922 Grand held at Atlantic City.

In 1930 Russ Elliott, of Kansas City set up an event across from the ATA Vandalia Homegrounds that he called "Traphunting."

​

The ATA added the "Modified Clay Pigeon" game to the rule book in the 1960s. And International events were held at the GAH for a number of year.

HB

 

Always had to shoot the single barrel races with a low gun.

 

Oleo,
Bunker, known as" reality check" also, gives to the "big guys", like you, the chance to get ridiculous and
cut from their ego.
Get your gun and your savings and shoot with me bunker! You will go home like a little puppy with the tail between your balls! You will get back to work for a living , guaranteed!!
What an Opportunity!

 

I give you chance to shoot much easier game but you chicken. You say trap too easy but no shoot and make believe you good. Now go and play with bunker if you can find others to shoot too. I too busy with much bigger game.

 

Oleo, one more q, do you know why is so low representation in bunker shooting?
It is too hard, and too sophisticated for people like you but the real trap is the bunker, period!

 

Arthur, take it easy on Oleo. We all know he doesn't shoot very well. Why are you taking so much fun in picking on an easy target? Oleo would be lucky to break five in Bunker, but that's O.K.. As long as he's buying shells and guns, he's still good for the gun industry.

 

Any changes, even it's a good one will face strong resistance from those big dogs and diehard ATA members.

Old people, especially trap shooters, don't like changes.

 

Then, make a youngster division (15-50 yo people) doing some changes and challenges and keep the actual ATA for the old farts, 51 and over! Why to keep captive talented people in a sub challenged game?
Imagine, all of these ideas are free you just need to implement it!

 

All these words of wisdom from the mouth of a babe who's mommy cut off his allowance for refusing to make his bed. Now the poor dear hasn't shot trap for years with daddy's hand me down Mossberg 500 Special edition because of lack of funds. Anyone care to send him a few $$ so he can continue his pursuit of the World Bunker Boyz Championship?

 

If you shot trap before voice pulls you had fast pulls, slow pulls, no pulls and if it was on time it scared you.

 

If you shoot a release you do not want any delay's, the delays should be kept at the sporting clay range. We have enough trouble with some of the voice speakers now

 

Bob, I shoot a release. I have for 25 years. I can shoot a release with ease on delayed release. I can shoot a release at skeet, sporting, international skeet (with delayed release and low gun). I can't imagine why that would be an issue.
And, do you ever shoot games? See those 4,5 or more man Annies? See those 2,3 or 4 man backups? You think any of those guys shoot a release? At my club more of those old games shooters shoot release than don't. What is the issue?

 

Jakearoo, I see what you're saying, and I understand.

I'm very blessed after 25 years of weekly shooting, I have not stepped into the scary world of "Release".

I see my friends struggling with their flinch in trap, I saw a few AD because some forgot to open the action when something interferes the squad. I thank heaven they all pointed down range when that happened.

 

Oleo, I think you are in the "old fart" division.let young people to shoot something that is more challenging and more interesting. Don't hijack the trap field with a game that suits only you!

Sovrapposti
"I see my friends struggling with their flinch in trap, I saw a few AD because some forgot to open the action when something interferes the squad. I thank heaven they all pointed down range when that happened"

The pure ignorance and lack of knowledge about flinch made the release trigger to be the only "savior"
It is not the answer for everybody and is not the correct solution because treats the symptom not the cause.
There is only one book that explain and describes why trigger freeze and flinch happen and gives the right solutions.
" Curing trigger freeze and flinching" on the internet. You learn a lot from it!

 

There is already a delay in the ATA Game. The CVR's have a .6 second delay so I suggest you go the other way and the the delay out like that at bunker.

 

The original CVRs had no delay and the shooters didn't like it. They put a short delay in order to simulate the human puller reaction time but it is a constant .6 second delay. My OP suggests a random release, from 0 to about 3 seconds seems about right.
Ed Yanchok

 

Where I normally shoot, we have young pullers, we got fast, slow and some times no pull, all you'll hear is "sorry" from the kid.

We also got way out of line crazy birds on daily bases, but we enjoy and said that'll make us better shooters.

 

You will want to pay close attention "artur codrea", because I DO NOT warn people twice ..... the next time you try to direct traffic to this "book", after your many tries, you will not be able to do so again for awhile .....

 

I got it! I just want to help.!

 

Artur, You know, your position as the forum troll is firm. But it would be nice if you could possibly come up with a new topic.
I know all about Bunker. I was President of Miramar Trap and Skeet in the 90s, before it closed, and shot there for 15 years. Besides our regulation American trap and skeet fields we had two international skeet fields and two regulation bunkers (and and International wobble set up to mimic bunker birds).
I don't particularly like ATA trap and think the sport was dumbed down till it is rather boring. (Though it is still a challenging game from the 27 yard line.)
I started shooting bunker in about 1985 and by about 1992 I was shooting almost nothing but bunker. We had coin op setups on our bunkers and I left work every day about 3 in the afternoon and shot about 4 rounds of bunker a day. Sometimes double that. We had two international bunker events a year, the Maple Leaf (so named because it was first done to invite the Canadian national trap team to shoot against the US national trap team) and the Miramar invitational. We had about 50-80 shooters, many international shooter, at each of those multi-day events. I have shot thousands of rounds of bunker. I love the game. When I was shooting it regularly, I averaged about 23 per round and have shot 75 straight (I have never shot 100 straight.)
I have shot many, many times with many members of the US National teams past and, at that time, present as well as the Canadian National Team and British National Team and many Central and South Americans and Europeans.
So get the hell off your high horse. You ain't the only guy who shoots bunker and likes the game. And, yes I went to a release/pull about 1992. Originally, I went to it for a flinch but quickly realized it is a better competition trigger. And, yes, I shot it at bunker. (I do realize it is not allowed in official events but I did not shoot in the Olympics or National Championships or such events.)
And one thing you and I agree on, a release trigger is superior to a pull trigger. It makes for a better trap gun. The same way an over under is superior to an automatic or a Perazzi is better than a cheaper and less well designed gun.
But you don't even know why the release is not allowed.
It is simply because the Italians, who dominate the politics of International trap, didn't want to compete against shooters who used one. (The same way they would not allow women's trap events to have same number of targets or presentation as men's events. Their macho male image could not accept that a woman might break a better score than the men so they would not allow similar events so they could be compared.)
You may not know that Perazzi made releases for about 2 years. (I own two of the old Perazzi releases and have discussed this with Lucio many times.) In the late 80s they realized that many of their guns were having after market releases installed in the U.S. market and they wanted to compete. But after just a couple of years making them an Italian shooter was shooting in Italy with a release and when he had a broken bird and lowered his gun he managed to somehow let off the trigger as he was opening it. It went off into gravel. It did not shoot anyone but it peppered a few shooters pretty hard with gravel. Scared the hell out of everyone. Daniele ordered that Perazzi would no longer make a release. He was afraid of liability if a real tragedy occurred.
So, let me know when you want to shoot bunker. I'll shoot it with you. Any time we can make it happen. Nearest bunker to me are the two at Redlands (They inherited our machines from Miramar when the Marines closed our range.) in what we call "the inland empire" in So. Cal.
And, in the meantime, why don't you find some new troll bait. Your old stuff is pretty boring and juvenile.
And quit trying to sell that stupid book.
Jake

 

Jack, how is the weather in So Cal? You are out of touch!
The ladies shoot the same NR of targets like the men! Please get a rest!

 

Jakearoo,

That stinks! When USMC pulled the rug out from under you, did the club lose its investment in all the facilities there, or had USMC paid for everything that was demolished?

 

I think artur should write a book. It would have 2 volumes. The first, his thoughts on shooting clay targets.

The second, a book to translate what the hell he said in the first.

 

I think most is us have figured out artur codrea. Here is a guy who does not shoot ATA trap, has no clue about it’s history or why things are done the way they are done, but he knows every thing that is wrong with it and how to fix it. In the meantime, he shoots bunker which has a fraction of shooters compared to ATA shooters and a fraction of a fraction of bunker fields to trap fields in this country. Can’t say I am impressed with this guy at all.

 

We not only lost it all, they made us drain all saved up assets for "cleanup." We had been there over 40 years. One of the best clubs in the country.
Then the Marines went in and DEMOLISHED every single bit of structure or foundation in place. It was sick. Walkways, trap houses, the bunker structure, EVERYTHING. They piled all the broken concrete and crap into craters they made in the trap field. They wanted to make sure we would NEVER be able to open again. It still sits there a waste land. No use.

I think they are about to do the exact same thing at a very small range we have on Camp Pendleton. It will be shut down "indefinitely" (read permanently) in about 2 weeks. It has also been there many, many years.

Its pretty weird. I guess the Marines don't like sharing anything with the public. But, you would think they could see the value of having their Marines shooting moving targets with a shotgun as a training device. Sadly, even the Marines are not free from bureaucratic stupidity.

The Google maps pics shows it just after they demolished the bunkers at the west end of the club. It was a heck of a great place to shoot.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/H...95b6286d128360!8m2!3d32.860586!4d-117.1224308

 

Did you forget to mention that he really just likes to be an obnoxious and rude troll?

 

You do know the difference between the past tense, "used" as to the present tense, "use" in English, don't you, Art?
And by the way, nice try at diversion. No sense addressing the information in my post, eh?

 

Jack, talk to the moderator of the forum to stop censoring me and I will give you an answer. Until then, treat your paranoia
mirrored on this:"And by the way, nice try at diversion. No sense addressing the information in my post, eh?"

 

You can't find the PM button? Poor boy.
Go get a young'un to teach you how to navigate a web site.
And, quit being such a sanctimonious ass hole.

 

Jackass,bring a doctor's prove that you are sane and then we can have a discussion.
Your capacity to understand things is challenged, so please leave us alone...

 

We had the modified International Trap one year in Particular at the Grand and This young Lady on our squad whipped all our asses, She was Fred Bischel Youngest Daughter, our scores were good but her's were better, it was the first time I had ever shot Modified International Trap, She was a Natural, later she got married and was a farmers wife and gave up Trap, I wish I could recall her name, she deserves the credit. Her 0lder sister still shoots trap.

Gary Bryant............................Dr.longshot

 

Gary, I assume by "Modified International Trap" you are referring to a wobble trap set up to throw the birds as wide as international and as far?
We had a trap set up like that at Miramar. Pretty decent comparison to a bunker. Doesn't throw the low ones as fast/far but it is still challenging and fun as hell to shoot.
Regards, Jake

 

I honestly Cannot tell you if it was a wobble trap or not, They used the Winchester 1524 Traps back then in the 1970s at Vandalia, But there was a definite variation
Fast, High, and Low at times. The International Trap Shoot was only used a fre w times at Vandalia, but it was Interesting. Fred Bischel would be the One to Know, or Dave Berlet may also know.

GB..........................DLS

 

Love to see it. Would sure make the shooter keep his head on the stock. I used to practice this with a puller that would pull the target any time between instant and 3 seconds. Sure helped me get rid of the bad habit of moving the gun on call. Great practice tool.

 

I remember those days, and it always seemed to happen while working on a good score. Voice activated systems eliminated a ton of complaining about the trap help.