Target Totals Removed-Rumor Has It

Let me preface my reply with this statement: I have no authority to speak for the BOD of the PITA, nor can I give you an absolute, concrete answer, but, it "might" go something like this: Once it was discovered that the shooter cheated and won the Grand Championship by doing so, his title would immediately be stripped, and, more than likely, he would, at the very least, be banned for a substantial period of time, if not for life. The PITA and the BOD won't tolerate this, and would probably come down hard on the cheater. The championship would be awarded to Charles Bickle, and all the accolades that go with it would be his. As for any monies, that would be more difficult to wade through, but, it can be done, as can re-doing the winners list as necessary. We are only talking about one event here, not the entire program. The most important thing is that the cheater would no longer be the champion, and the membership of the PITA would know, right away, that this type of behavior is not acceptable and their BOD will do whatever is necessary to protect the integrity of the sport, and to protect their members from letting this go unpunished. A situation such as this is very rare, and it would have to be handled on a case by case basis as there are no written rules that deal with this directly nor does it state what the punishment for the infraction would be. The main difference is that the PITA would not wait around to take any action. Something this serious would merit the full and immediate attention of the BOD, and it would have been handled by now, not lingering in the background festering like an open wound. I firmly believe the PITA would do everything they could to make an example of him for his behavior..... Honesty, integrity, transparency, and fairness are very important to the PITA and the BOD and they continually exhibit this. Are they perfect? No. Would they let this matter drag out any longer? No. Would they address it, deal with it, and arrive at a decision in a timely manner? Yes. Understand this: There is only ONE paid staff member in the PITA, and that is the executive secretary. EVERYONE else is serving on a volunteer basis with no pay. They are all shooters, just like the rest of us, and they respect what this sport stands for and what it means. As such, the BOD doesn't have any agenda, nor does it play any favorites with any "good old boys". No fancy gun to the past presidents, no plush salaries. Nothing. They serve the membership, and the members, and their delegates dictate what happens. The PITA BOD facilitates the memberships wishes, period! Again, this is just a guess, by me, as to what might have happened based on my association with the organization and the members of the BOD.....

 

By assigning him a few extra yards after his win based on known ability would that be admitting they believed he's guilty of something?

 

user1, so you're saying the because he didn't complain about the reduction in his target count he is guilty. Nice logic!! Maybe he doesn't care about target count.

Trap2 for not speaking for the PITA you sure sound confident in how it would handle a similar event.

Ollie, not the first time the ATA assigned arbitrary yardage. How does this assignment of yardage have anything to do with registering targets he didn't shoot? Of course it doesn't have anything to do with it. The yardage was assigned due to known ability and the probable belief of prior target management. Of course that can't be proved so they can't retroactively punish him. They just make it harder for the next time.

Can anyone answer my question on how this cheating improved his chances of fleecing the field. The answer is, it didn't. Now, if this had been done in prior years and these targets aided in the reductions he received, well then there is an issue. However, since the club is only required to keep the scores sheets for one year, there was nothing the ATA could do about anything more than a year prior.

 

Dan, Thank you for a civil reply.

 

In theory couldn't those targets have helped keep a shooter on the 18 yard line. Couldn't he have received a number of reductions throughout the year?

 

You're welcome.....

 

Re-read my last sentence iowa guy.... I can't make it any clearer for you than that. My statement is based on a lot of years with the PITA, and I have seen how they have dealt with things in the past. I also know the current BOD and know they would fight with everything they have to protect the integrity of our sport, and the integrity of the PITA when it comes to dealing with something like this... The ATA on the other hand.... not so much.

 

Wishbone, I don't know how they could have helped keep a shooter on the 18 Yrd line. I've never heard of any earned yardage being assigned during a regular review. I suppose it's possible. If the targets removed would have changed a granted yardage reduction this a totally different situation in my opinion. Someone did a thorough analysis of his targets over on TS.com. I don't think these removed targets would have impacted a review decision. A low handicap average only triggers a reduction decision. If he's already at the minimum yardage more low scores wouldn't make any difference.

 

I guess I was thinking if the shooter gained yardage else where he could get reductions for low scores he did not shoot.
You can be reduced up to 3 yards a year.
I don't know the facts in this case.
I don't expect most of us ever will the whole story.

 

Trap2, until the PITA is faced with this situation, you'll never really know. It's easy to speculate, based on prior actions, what they might do in this case. But keep in mind, when you strip a title and call someone a cheater on a national stage you best have your ducks in a row and be willing and able to defend yourself in a defamation law suit. I really think that is where the ATA is at with this.

 

If this is the case, then I would be in the 'strip the title' camp. However, I don't think that is the case here.

 

I don't know the whole story and as I have said earlier I don't think I ever will.

It is an unfortunate situation but I believe Charles Bickle got screwed.

I don't know Mr Bickle but if my son or I don't win this year G.A.H. I hope Mr Bickle does.

 

One can receive extra yardage in handicap regardless of score averages, known ability paints with a broad stroke.

I feel your spot on iowa guy. Also we're in the same predicament as when human pulled calls were about to be contested in court to whether or not a pull was fast or slow! We'd have lost that one too! Even today with electronic voice calls, that determination still lies with the shooter to make that determination if contested in court?

HAP

 

Hap, agreed. But have you ever heard of a shooter getting punch in the mail as a result of a regular 1000 target review? I have not, but I suppose it's possible.

 

iowa guy, I haven't heard of such an increase either but it certainly could happen with information from a delegate or EC or CHC. In my view, with the information available on the Grand winner, his 2-1/2 yards for his 100 straight weren't evidently enough accordingly? What I'd love knowing is on what information was the extra yardage increase validated or was it some known ability?

I personally got an extra yard in the early 70s but it wasn't via the mail route, it was directly from the horses mouth at a major fall handicap in Las Vegas. Neither my singles OR handicap averages at the time would justify that yard either. It was for beating 2 friends of one of the EC members from 52 yards behind the trap for money. With new AAs purchased from the clubs pro shop, a must for all 3 of us shooting for money. A dime worked it's magic and known ability is painted by a broad brush?

HAP

 

Hap, yep known ability is pretty vague and tough to fight, as you know.

Well at least you took some money from them. Hopefully it was some meaningful money.

 

Of course it was known ability yardage. Introduced by the delegate and upheld by all!

 

Here is the Question for the 2015 Grand. How will they run the 2015 Grand American Handicap Champion differently. Will they check
each shooters scores more closely or what can they do.....

Birddog

 

Birddog,

We put up with 20 yard shooters from Kentucky for a lot of years doing the same thing.
What would you suggest?

 

1. Wishbone, The clubs that were envolved in this last issue should not be allowed to have an ATA shoot
for ??? number of years. 2. Was the shooter that won the American Handicap Champion in 2014 the
only shooter with fake scores or were there other shooters from these 2 clubs that had fake scores with no score sheets that we are talking about.. You cannot tell me that just the trap club knew what was going on, the trap club know, and the shooter or shooters knew and should be suspended from
the ATA for ???. Just taking this one person's targets away, because the club could not produce the score sheet is rubbish...
The Problem is Bigger than that and if the ATA Degates, EC, BOD will not deal with it properly, then ATA shooting is
on the way out the door.......as it has bee for the past 15 or so years...
Birddog

 

Well they took targets away from more then one shooter.
I agree the clubs should be punished.

But getting back to your original question

Respectfully what would you suggest we do in 2015 to insure the integrity of the G.A.H.?

 

Wishbone, I am just one ATA shooter, This qustion needs to be asked directly to the ATA BOD, EC and all ATA Delegates.

They are the ones who need to answer this questions,, What will they do in 2015 to insure the integrity of the G.A.H.?

Birddog

 

The ATA, BOD, and EC do not answer to the membership ... They feel they do not have to and have never been made to so until that changes "Good Luck" ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Lew, Let's pretend that the above mentioned folks would respond to this question. In your mind, what is an acceptable answer?

 

Let's see "I just think he gamed the system." Now would that be the same as cheating? With the number of targets supposedly shot and no yardage gain I would believe the shooter was sending in fake scores of targets never shot or targets intentionally missed to keep actual scores low. No matter how he accomplished it I think he should lose any gain made from "gaming the system" which I believe to be cheating.

 

I don't think someone could "intentionally miss" a bunch of targets without having a bad effect on your game.

Shooting the targets and reporting a lower score would put your game in the condition to perform at the needed level.

Some have no clue what it takes to break a 100, then back it up with 50 more, in something like the GAH .... from any yardage. It takes a mental game, and luck, that is far beyond someone deserving the 18 yard-line for a handicap.

The 'have-a-good-day' will get you a couple of targets ... but 15 to 20 more ... would only happen in someone's fantasy-land.

 

User 1
I don't think many here would argue with your statement.

The question was asked above "What will they do in 2015 to insure the integrity of the G.A.H."

I don't have the answer but it is a good question.

When we look at past winners it is not a new phenomenon.

I plan on attending and and shooting the big event.

If I had one of those special days I don't mind losing a shoot off but I would hate to get "Bickled"

 

As far as intentionally missing targets, a gentlemen who was on the central handicap committee told us about a couple shooters they were looking at a few years back that always seemed to drop multiple targets on the last field at local shoots but never seemed to miss at the Grand and a couple other big shoots. Target management is pretty easy for an accomplished shooter.

 

If you want an opinion ..... this would be mine .....

First .... If something close to this would happen again ..... hold off on the 'official results' until everyone has a look, and a say in the matter. Be in no hurry unless you 'know' everything looks OK. Take pictures of both, or whatever, and mail awards if that is what it takes.

Then use an algorithm on handicap scores to make 'abnormal' things stand out for a closer look.

And .... performance based pay for those in charge .... if your pay suffers, you pay more attention.

That would be the 'start' .... for me.

 

User1, seems a bit unrealistic to me. So, what if there is a lone 100 and that triggers your special review outlined above. It will take quite a while to determine if the shooter is legit and the score stands. Then let's say it doesn't.

Do you bring all the 99's back to Sparta for a shootoff for the GAH champ?

Does this algorithim analyze each sub event, after all we're looking for target managers here too right?

You can't fix this. Cheaters are going to cheat. And if they're good at it you'll never catch them.

Ponder this. I want to do shoot a bunch of targets but make sure I turn in scores that won't result in earned yardage. I conspire with a club, get three of my friends to go along and we shoot. Maybe we have 99, 98 whatever. At the end of the day we create score sheets that show that our scores were 93 - 94 (pick a number). The club keeps the score sheets as required.

I show up at the grand, shoot the GAH, run the hundred. People get worked up cause I'm short yardage. My scores are checked out. Everything looks legit. I'm the GAH champ.

My point is, there is very little the ATA can do to stop this kind of behavior. It has to start with the shooters and then the clubs. If there are clubs willing to do this it will be tough to stop it.

Might as well use the PITA approach. WE THINK YOU CHEATED SO WE'RE GOING TO TAKE YOUR TROPHY AWAY.

 

"You can't fix this." ..... maybe ....

We could spend days creating 'scenarios' that may not be stoppable .... or we could get real and say cheating is not as hard to fight as some want to think.

Or .... do nothing as usual.

 

Actually it was unknown ability that got this guy some additional yards. The known ability rule is applicable only if you can produce scoresheets. Since many were not available different rules apply. It also takes great skill to spend most of your shooting career at the 18 yd. line and then pop off 150 straight in the biggest event of the year!

 

Let's put a hypothetical situation out there, that is similar to the real deal, but 100% within the ATA rules.

Shooter legitimately is moved to the 18 yard line. Person registers the minimum required targets to avoid penalty yardage at the Grand. Person has a trap at home and shoots several hundred, maybe a couple thousand, targets and get pretty darn good from the 18yd line. Maybe they do all their practicing from the 22 or 24, who knows.

Shooter goes to the grand and wins.

Are you guys going to want to strip this persons trophy too just because they practiced instead of competed?

I really am on the same side of the fence as most of you with my thoughts of what happened. We just differ on what we feel the ATA should/can do about it.

 

Iowa Guy
The Tar and Feathers is trotted out annually if anyone other that a 27 yard shooter wins the G.A.H.

 

Forget Trapshooting ... Why lock the door on your house when you leave. Or ... the doors on your car/truck ... why bother if a thief is going to steal.

If you can't stop someone who wants your stuff ... Why purchase a gun-safe ??? Or, why have a password on your accounts ????

In Trap you can't enforce shell rules, targets setting rules, or pretty-much every other rule in the 'rule-book' ... right ???? so why bother ????

Or ... is it possible people appreciate an effort to protect their interests. And ... they may understand that total prevention may be a goal set too high ... but at the very least an 'honest' effort was put forth on their behalf.

 

Iowa Guy,,,, I think this best explaings my feelings on the subject... And NO,. I don't like to pretned.....that sucks....

is it possible people appreciate an effort to protect their interests. And ... they may understand that total prevention may be a goal set too high ... but at the very least an 'honest' effort was put forth on their behalf.

P.S. Okay, Who are you Iowa Guy, you use my first name, whats your first name.. lets not pretend....

Lew D. Boyko

 

The shooter alone can't turn in bogus scores to ATA! Only the club signatory to throw ATA registered targets can furnish such scores.

The take away targets? Hard to tell what those were since the score sheets were destroyed. My guess and opinion all wrapped into one is they more than likely were danged good ones without gaining the yardage that should have been placed on those shooters! I also believe this was a set-up deal between the shooters and club management, period. It has to be that way as a shooter alone just can't manage their ATA targets without help!!

HAP

 

Hap, I agree that the club may have some purposeful involvement, but how would the club benefit from a set-up deal? I can't imagine the GAH winner would split the winnings.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see the incentive.

 

Rosey, over the years lots of clubs were cheating the rule book as well as a few shooters! Their incentive? Without a doubt it was for club recognition and possibly money also. (Shoot my club if you want to score well?) One of the best trap shooters ever, when he ran gun clubs, took his clubs way beyond anything allowed by our rule book! As a pure shooter, this man didn't need to cheat anything ATA related to be at the top of the heap! SO, what was his incentive both as a shooter or a club operator? Heaven knows!

It's still an ongoing battle with some clubs and shooters continually violating our own rules? The biggest accepted rule violation seen today is the height setting rule, 8 to 10 foot at 10 yards out. Changed from 8 to 12 foot high in 2003, why? I have absolutely no idea why and those responsible are afraid to say WHY!! A few even post here also!!

Rosey, I know from your line of work your familiar with how a transit/level works. Watch how targets are set at clubs use your experienced elevation mind on those numbers? I've asked lots of times, why have a rule if everyone won't abide by them? What's the incentive? I have no idea unless gaming the sport or egos are at play?

HAP

 

Turned into a real "who done it" huh?

DID the shooters really SHOOT at the targets, and break the numbers sent in, and are innocent of doing anything wrong?
I am only talking about those three because they all shot at the two clubs that were investigated, and had the targets removed. One of those three just happened to be the GAH winner. They shot together?

One of the three had scores sent in that gave him the highest 16's average in PA. Not after they removed those targets.

The third shooter, well I don't know why he had 8700+ targets registered. He wasn't a high 16's shooter and his caps scores didn't win him anything that I know of, so WHY did he claim all those targets? Now remember, this shooter was the SAME guy that had a little problem back around 1984 with switching cards and winning a LARGE sum of money. For any members that never heard that one, he was caught, banned, let back in years later. Did he shoot? that number of targets because it takes 3 shooters to make them registered? BTW, he had over 5000 of those targets removed.

If the clubs were in on some kind of "split" why in the world would they LOSE the sheets? If anyone ever questioned them the sheets are their paper trail. We lost the sheets is just stupid. Heck, the 16's high average shooter had a 400 straight in one day sent in. If I was the club manager I would have framed those sheets and hung them on the club wall. 400 straight on a JANUARY day in WV. That's some shooting!!

Did the GAH winner shoot on those days? Were his scores high enough to get him yardage but he told the guy in the club house lower numbers in order to stay close? NO SCORE KEEPERS? Or did they, the 3 shooters needed to make them registered, just pick a number and turn those numbers in. That one doesn't compute. If you are going to pay an ATA fee, and pay the club for their targets, why not shoot them? Good practice AND if you are turning in your own scores a perfect chance to "work" the system. See: cheating

Now it could have been really convoluted. The club never threw any targets. The shooters payed the ATA fees. The club saved on targets. The shooters save a TON on shells and target costs and they get the scores they want sent in. For a small fee (ATA) you get any score you want.
Win, Win, Win!

My guess? They shot the targets, turned in bogus scores, (see above for reasons) and to cover their butts, the clubs LOST the sheets.
Damn, we never thought the guy would be the GAH winner! Now what do we do?

I think the guys that think we will never know the true story are pretty much on the money.

Flyersarebest

 

A win/win for all involved. The "shooters" saved money on shells, the club saved money by collecting for targets not thrown, scorekeepers not getting paid and no need ever to load traphouses after a "shoot". It doesn't get any better!

 

If they can turn back the hands of time for any one shooter and remove targets without any other penalty's why not a few others who have been condemed and banned ..? Integrity is a wonderfull thing, you either got it or you don't, time and situations do not change that ... There are and have been many shooters who never had any need to cheat, manipulate targets (scores) or post inflated scores (or deflated) to maintain a position and set them up for the big win at a shoot ... There cannot (should not be) be selective enforcement because that would deplete the Integrity of the enforcer ... Where does it start and where would it stop, talk about a catch 22 ...WOW ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

And you get a rebate at the end of the year!

 

It's half-way from the 2014 Grand to the 2015 Grand .... It is decision-making time for some that travel far, and are not retired.

If those in charge care about the ATA growth, shoot attendance, and all the other 'talking-points' .... they need to do some serious PR work.

It is well past time for them to take their public lumps, and tell everyone 'their side'. It would be hard to believe a public explanation could make anything worse.

They owe the membership some accountability .... whether or not they feel they do ....

 

I know of a club in western indiana that did that in the mid to late 80s.

 

I couldn't edit my post from my phone for some reason or I would have added this.
There probably NEVER were any sheets to lose. When TSHTF, how could a club come up with that many sheets with scores on them. You would need ALL the dates on a master list. Then fill in ALL the scores for those dates. They could have marked misses to get to the correct totals but can you imagine the nightmare that would be? Just in time alone.
I would think it would have taken more than one person to do all the calculations. Easier to just say, " lost the sheets".

Flyersarebest

 

And on and on we go never to know the outcome.

 

Never say never

Flyersarebest

 

Hap, I know what you mean about the 8'-12' rule. Shooters continually asked to have the birds raised, especially on doubles, and they just do it. Then you walk up to the trap and the birds are set at 16'!
We could save our trap help a lot of time if they would just say "They're legal, shoot em!", but they don't want to chase away shooters.

 

Have you ever stopped to reason out why they like those high targets, especially on doubles? As you said, clubs want your business and will yo-yo targets depending on the shooters whims at the moment. One thing they won't touch though is the speed limits!

That ridiculous speed limit on doubles at 39 mph and throwing targets about 44 yards is the real culprit causing all the yo-yo effect in the doubles game. Neil Winston said on TS that his proposal for a vote was so ridiculous he just knew they would reject it! Surprise!! They mandated it into our rule book! Bad choice on choosing the easy way out!

Only on a blue bird day will that setting work as intended for the average doubles shooter without any wind involvement. With the old settings, 8 to 12 foot high set at 9-1/2 to 10 foot and thrown to 48 yards allows for some wind from the back and front and the targets remain legal breakable targets. Un-necessary rule changes can lead to many un-intended consequences and this "new height/speed rule" is a prime example.

The best shooters in our game will break targets regardless of ease or difficulty, not so for the average ATA doubles shooter. As usual, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

HAP

 

Hap at the Cardinal Shoots last year that I was TC we shot t-bared 9 and half foot, 50 yard targets and I told the setters to not reset a trap unless it was out of those specks. We had very few resets and few complaints. The State shoot used the radar gun and protractor to set their targets.

 

He should have been banned for 75 years, that is almost for life

 

I have seen the same person who initially set the targets reset a trap when he walks up on it, never could figure that one out ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Thanks Brad!! That setting threw a much more stable target for breaking purposes for everyone!

A friend and I were shooting doubles here in AZ last year and our entire squad agreed we needed to change the settings. The targets were ridiculously high right out of the house only to fall a short distance away from the house! We had them lowered and added speed (for stabilization with the extra RPMs). The squad high for that trap was a 49, low a 42. Next trap we left as it was and no one broke above a 42 on our squad!! Truth and a provable fact! Those suckers are hard to hit when falling like apples off a tree dancing on the whirling winds!

If only we'd always followed (enforced?) our rule book standards instead of changing so many things toward a falsely perceived easier to hit slower target, who knows where we'd be today?

HAP

 

Good enough for the rest of the shooters when he set them?

Not quite where he and his squad liked them when it was their turn to shoot ?

Seen it. When I was still shooting the PA state we always tried to shoot the same traps as the "old guard". Not the BIG DOGS, just the good ole boys. They always seemed to need a little adjustment to the traps before they shot.

Flyersarebest

 

"I have seen the same person who initially set the targets reset a trap when he walks up on it, never could figure that one out ..."

Why do you think some of the Big-Dog/Elite stay sucked up to ATA officials ?????

They 'let them' shoot on a squad with them, in exchange for getting what they want in real-time ... as in while they are shooting.

 

Anyone who was caught shooting illegal shells during "any" ATA shoot should be banned for 75 years and their membership revoked!

 

Its my nature to play by the rules to the letter, I would think that at sometime in 40 years someone would of checked my shells ... I shot on a squad with a guy out at Red Mountain when it was still operational who was shooting 3 1/4 - 1 1/4 new shells, figured if he as going to shoot the 100 with them he would be flinching so bad it was just going to be fun to watch ... He shot 60 something, said he grabbed the wrong shells by mistake ... I asked if he had some more for the shoot off ..? He got beat up so bad he didn't shoot the rest of the week ... Guess you had to be there ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

A friend of mine was in a handicap shoot off and beat a guy who in turn claimed my friend was shooting illegal shells. Shoot officials took one shell apart, weighed all components and deemed the shell within specs, smiling all the time. My friend was shooting NEW Remington light handicap1 1/8th oz, 1200 fps # 8's during the shoot and shoot off.

 

Leonidas, funny how some guys have the pointing ability to make a 2-3/4-1145 or one at 1200 also seem to break targets as if they were illegal!

I've never seen anyone's shells protested as you outlined above. Once the shell has done it's magic, who can say whether or not it was legal or illegal when used? Since neither the clubs nor ATA has the ability or resources to challenge loads with the exception of weight or shot size, we should have done away with a max speed limit during the rule changes. I like the KISS principle a lot.

Some shooters think they can tell a shells velocity by how loud it is, false perception on their part. Some powders are exceptionally loud with all loads and porting also adds to the noise factor.

HAP

 

Hap, Have you ever put those STS light handicaps on a chrono?

 

Hap,

Rumor has it a shooter was disqualified at the Ohio State shoot a few years back for illegal shells.

 

Rosey, no I haven't. I have shot some of the STS 1 0z 7-1/2s from the 27 and broke a couple 97s with them. How does the light handicaps chrono out? I know they are clay smokers too!!

Leonidas, I'm sure there's far more shooters that get away with shooting illegal loads than those getting caught? Probably the biggest violation may be using a larger shot size in their ammo, just a guess.

HAP

 

At the end of the day, all the talk of legal vs illegal, or 3dr vs 1250 fps is all just for the sake of arguing anyway. As far as I am concerned, if any ammo is capable of breaking 100% of perfectly pointed targets, and a premium quality 3dr 7 1/2 will do that all day long at 27 yards, how can an ammo with an illegal velocity or even 1250fps for that matter, be somehow considered to be an advantage? You will still have to point the gun perfectly to break the target after all.

 

Jo2, you're so correct about having to accurately point each and every target regardless of shell velocity.

I can't see any real argument with that at all! My complaints are the FACTs that clubs and members of our organization repeatedly have violated our own set of standards in registered shooting. That too is FACT which begs the question; why have a rule book if it's not enforced by those in charge? Far too long we leave it up to clubs to do that by following the rules by the book so to speak. Our own ATA officials have violated the setting standards for decades in addition? Proof? Ask Neil Winston if he ever shot 44 degree angles since his beginnings in 1982?

By violating our rules for the sake of better scores shot by more, isn't that actually skewing or screwing our historical shooting records? Our organization is a keeper of accurate records and not following the standards set forth in our own rule book speaks volumes!! Egos are responsible for the cheating group rather than what's deemed best for our sport according to history!

I've noticed a pattern in your wording that "if it's in the rule book" all is well and should be accepted by all. That should have been the message all throughout our sports history but it wasn't and therein lies a problem. We either have integrity or we don't and in my view, we're severely lacking in that department on the big picture!

BTW, N.W. loves all of you for pointing out our misgivings concerning our sports history and allots attaboys too?

HAP

 

Like as been said how do you challenge a shell that has been shot, if a person intentionally shoots illegal shells that person would in all probability have legal shells on their person in case of a shell challenge, enough said game over.

 

Hap so true, a legal load of 800-x is very loud, and only 1200fps, they are soft shooting too.

 

I haven't checked my current rule book but recall years ago if there was a score discrepancy during the Grand American handicap, that score couldn't be changed till the following Grand? Anyone else recall that or how it reads today?

HAP

 

"Jo2, you're so correct about having to accurately point each and every target regardless of shell velocity."

Speed kills .... does a couple of pellets traveling around 50-fps(+/-) faster than 'normal', have a better chance to break the golden piece of a 'near miss', that will take you to the pay window ???? ...

Does the speed of one object when striking another object, make it hit with more energy that results in causing more damage to what it hits ????

A mis-pointed target is lost ... a not-perfect, but well pointed target, as distance increases, is up for debate on the effect of the magic-speed of pellet(s) having more energy to get a 'near-miss' break.

 

User 1, I suppose the chance of that happening (you are absolutely right, it could) is about the same as the pellets of a slower shell taking the front edge
off of a target that a faster shell would have shot in front of. I suppose a target could be miss pointed slightly ahead of ( mostly on a shallow angle) as easily as slightly behind.

 

Not so much as where a near miss could happen ... but the effect of a faster moving object on what it hits.

Does a 'mass' do more damage with increased speed ???? A car going 100 mph hits an object vs a car going 20 mph hitting the same object.

If nothing changes except the speed of the pellet(s) .... are the 'chances' of a near-miss break greater with the energy produced by more speed as distance increases ????

 

I'd be interested in how it was justified by giving the man extra yardage in addition to the 2.5 yards earned by shooting the 100? Known ability can only be applied so far? Does one event tell all that needs to be known to give that extra yardage? If singles averages mixed with handicap averages say no, tread lightly on pushing the extremes. Another 2.5 yards just because?

HAP

 

HAP, did you ever hear of the unknown ability rule? That's the one that was employed in this case. Delegates with approval from the central handicap committee can pretty much assign additional yardage based on the thinking the shooter is better than his current yardage indicates!

 

Nope, never heard of such an animal Andy. No doubt it exists though since it was used as you say!

Any shooter wrongly accused of cheating for such a prestigious award would, in my humble opinion, fight tooth and toenail since his singles and handicap averages couldn't possibly warrant such known ability? Proved by ATA's own prior shooter records on the individual backed up with his personal cards? That would be mighty tough to prove without lying! Opinion on someone's ability to break targets unless proved beyond a shadow of doubt, is playing games with that shooter. Lawyers love these sorts of things too, helps them make their Mercedes payments?

I don't look for much to come of this though because I firmly believe that the shooters and those clubs were both complicit in violating our standards of fair play. I'm just about as sure our ATA leadership would love this to just go away and get on to new horizons.

HAP

 

If the allegations are true, I can't imagine Mr. Bickle's picture going on the cover of Trap and Field, or a write up with an explanation of what happened, how it was discovered, or the actions taken. All those questions would eventually be asked by outdoor writers, magazine editors, and sponsors if the association didn't come clean up front.

Ain't gonna happen. Think about it. It would be a major embarrassment for the ATA in the shooting world. Winnings would have to be retrieved and then re-disbursed. Records would need to be changed, and legal action may be initiated as everyone "lawyer's up". How do they retrieve the money? How do they post the winnings and changes in payouts and standing? It would be a real cluster.

It would also question the actions of current and past EC/BOD/Delegates that promoted rule changes which opened the door to this type of event...(18 yard handicap and the 4 yards of unearned reductions).

Ain't gonna happen.

 

Rosey, I agree 100%, it would really open a big can of worms! It is so much easier to sweep it neatly under the rug, besides it didn't make much change to anybody of importance on their all american points, thats what we all shoot for,Right? Nothing lost but a little integrity and a little money of those silly enough to play the purse! Its to late now to do anything even if they did want too. Your right, nothing is going to be done. The clubs and shooters involved will be a more careful not to get caught next time and business will go on as usual.

 

Rosey, It very simple the club was paid for targets that were never thrown. 100% profit. Makes for a good bottom line. Roger

 

Why doesn't anybody think positive, That the ATA will do the right thing? Have you seen in the minutes of how they handle complaints?, The length of time to arrive at an equitable solution, but you won't see the answer on here. But I believe the solution should be made public on both forums.
Dr.longshot

 

anything new??

 

Transparency, Integrity, Obamacare, think about it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...