Picking banks + squads = cheating ?

Ok, I will say it. Picking your squad and banks are a form of cheating. Is trapshooting a competition or not? Not even Tiger Woods gets to pick who he plays with or what hole he has to play.

 

Live Oak, I beg to differ on part of your issue. Picking and pre registering for your squad and the time of day you want to shoot is perfectly fine IMO. I feel the banks should be drawn (not in the back room) prior to the start of the shoot giving shooters enough time to go to their respective trap. Trap is kind of social and people like to shoot and socialize with people they like. When we make as much money as Tiger does, I guess I will shoot where they tell me!

 

They also like shooting shooting with pals that will let them claim a bird or two. I guess you would "like" those people.

 

When did picking squad or banks start?

 

Well, for this year mine started a few days ago when I presquadded for the Karen's Cup, the Buckeye and the Ohio State shoot picking my banks and position.

 

No problem paying ahead of time to presquad. Picking an event, squad, and time is fine. But you should not get a bank selection.

In today's digital world there are are plenty of ways for the shooters to find out what bank they're on. Should draw banks.

When Stuart holds back the best banks for presquadding,, you are paying to give yourself an advantage.

 

Just the opposite Rosey. I'm paying in advance (a whopping $2 per event) to prevent a disadvantage.

 

Ha, Same thing! What if you presquaded and still ended up on bank 6?

What presquading does at Cardinal is penalizes the drive ins and people with unsure work schedules. And when 1/2 the full squads walk out after being told they have a choice of banks 5, 6, or 7 it just pisses off more and more very year.

When shooters are making 3 trips to the CE building to squad one event, it does not eliminate crowds and time squadding.

Jack should have put up the curtain on those 3 banks, and people wouldn't be bitching quite as much about increased camping rates and golf cart fee.

 

I tend to agree w/Live Oak, The Ohio State Shoot in the 70s, it was random Placement of shooters, you had to look at posted sheets, find your name, Squad & Position. It never affected my shooting.

All 27 yard shooters were put in a pile shuffled and Drawn, same as 26.25,24,23,22, 21,20, 19 yds.

Now I guess a computer would do Random Draws, I always like this, you got what you got, You did not have a time of day option.

FAIR is FAIR all treated alike.

Trapshooting is a Competetion, Golf is a Competetion, Horse positions are drawn,

Let's bring back Competetion, a shooter must have the Average 88% or better to keep his yardage w/o being a reduction PERIOD.

Gary Bryant...............................Dr.longshot

 

Draw Bank Starting System 1 Hour before shoot starts, on each EVENT, Everyday. This is a very Fair way, no one gets multiple banks, the no getting entry sheets w/o paying for the Targets for all shooters, OPTIONS may be picked later and paid for, BUT TARGETS ARE PAID FOR ENTRRIES TAKEN, NO EXCEPTIONS.

We have people presently pulling full squads, that are on the same squad, to get better time of day to shoot, if targets were paid for every entry taken, if targets are $36.00 , that's $180.00 that is paid for each squad pulled, this will stop a lot.


GB............................DLS

 

"Jack should have put up the curtain on those 3 banks, and people wouldn't be bitching quite as much about increased camping rates and golf cart fee."

I agree wholeheartedly with that as I stood at the counter writing a check for this years camping fees and was told part of the increase was to pay for those screens. But, to your question about Bank 6... can't (won't) shoot it or Bank 7. Eye problem for me and I just loose the target against that background. Banks 1-4 and Banks 8-12 are ok. I'm not going to be in a shootoff so Bank 5 is no big deal to me. No normal squadding on that one anyway (practice traps). But individual shooters like me aren't the root of the complaint. It's the guys who show up with a full squad at 9:30 on Saturday morning and want to squad together on Bank 3. If you're willing to break up your group there probably wouldn't be an issue. If you know you're going why not just spend the extra couple dollars and presquad. You can always release them and resquad for different banks or times.

 

What needs to be done is walk the trap line like we used to do. That way no bank would be better than any other and the time of day would be what everyone looked at. Draw for East and West lines before shooting starts, odd squads one way even the other and flip ends in the 200 singles events, every body shoots both ends that way.

We used to skip 10 fields at Vandalia, and no one had a golf cart either, we walked. Today everyone has a golf cart it seems. Brad

 

Walk the trap line??? They do flip the 200 at the State shoot, but walk it - holy cow, I don't think there are enough EMT squads in Morrow county to prepare for that.

 

The only place I've even come close to walking the line is Middletown, and yes it makes it more fair and competitive. But trapshooters are spoiled now, and walking the line would not be received well.

I've presquadded before, and we got one bank we requested in one event. No, my squad didn't sit by the phone waiting for the opening day of presquadding to open, and no, we are not "preferred customers". Really? This is what you have to do to get an advantage? and pay for it.....? and the preferred banks are held back for presquad?

Who in their right mind ever thought this was a fair, legit method to presquad?

 

Who in their right mind ever thought this was a fair, legit method to presquad?

Not quite sure what you mean, what's unfair? You say they hold back preferred banks, how do they do that? I'm sure all banks are available for pre-squadding. It's a first come first serve situation. System works fine for me. ​

 

EVERY large shoot, from the State Shoots on up should have the banks selected at random.

We did this in NY and it worked well...

Each morning a number was picked, and that number was where the first squad shot.

If #7 was selected, the first squad shot bank 7, second squad Bank 8 and so on and so forth.

That eliminated bank picking.

Simple solution to the problem of bank selection.

Late signup or re-squading had to shoot the NEXT squad in line.

If squad 71 was the last squad registered at the time, The next person was on squad 72 until that was filled, etc., etc.

 

The problem as I see it is that there shouldn't be any bad banks. If we're going to have a competition then the field itself should be pretty much the same for all. At CC this is not the case. And this year it was supposed to be all taken care of. The screens they were going to put up, the screens, I was told the big hike in camping fees was going to pay for, would make banks a non-issue. They took the money then used it for something else. No screens, and Bank 5,6,7 remain an issue for many.

 

So.......since it's unchanged on banks 5, 6, 7 they should abandon presquad preferred bank selection. You just said "there shouldn't be any bad banks".

So you agree!

 

Isn't the ugly truth that many if not most competitive trapshooters are not really capable of too much walking? Its a significantly aging group and not well known for working out and staying trim.

 

Not at all. I'm all for presquadding and picking your banks in advance.

 

Never shot in PA I see.

 

No, I haven't, but I've heard the stories.

 

Let's put it this way. The best banks in PA are worse than banks 5-6-7 in OH. There's no such thing as treeless backgrounds in PA. You complainers are just spoiled. We wish we had it so bad.

 

So in Pa. everybody shoots on shitty banks. Sounds fair.

 

Everyone except a few prima donnas permanently on bank 3.

 

How do these shooters get to shoot on bank 3 every time?

 

I think that a little strong. More challenging for sure. Nothing bad about the PA shoot in my opinion but I don't see why we need to give anyone an advantage.

 

I'm not the pre-squader.

 

They presquad for a full squad for the entire shoot and get their form in early. You’d be surprised how few people actually do that and how easy it is to get the bank you want if you do.

 

Is that fair to the weekend warrior with a job?

 

The point of pre-squading is to get a bank close to where you park or your motor home is. If there were all good banks you wouldn't care. Most of the club's in the midwest have good backgrounds. Like the WSRC! If you would get out of Ohio & Penn. you would see that.

 

Wow? That is the reason. All the motorhome parking places are at bank 3 in PA? And they are at banks 5 and 6 at the CC. And at what banks are the motorhomes parked in Indiana? Anyone can post here? LOL

 

I’m not sure how you define fair in this case. The folks who shoot the most targets and plan ahead get the first choice. If you wait until the night before the Bruce Springsteen concert to decide to go you aren’t going to get to sit in the front row.

Actually, in PA, you can wait in line in squadding and get decent banks if you play your cards right. They only presquad so many flights and open more for the walkins. You’ll just be on a later squad which is only a negative on 3 event days.

 

I can go to the PA State Shoot the morning of the handicap championship and ask for Bank 3? LOL Tell them you know Oleolliedawg right?

 

Yes. Especially as a single. Only about 1/2 of the flights are held for presquaders, the rest are given to walk ups. It’s not a guarantee of course but if you are patient it is definitely possible.

I wouldn’t tell them you know Oleolliedog though. You might get put on bank 14 or given directions to Ohio.

 

Since you brought it up, if one of us mentioned that place in IL. it would be "bashing", and all the banks are great,
WHY DID ONLY 2,003 SHOOT THE BIGGEST EVENT OF THE YEAR IN 2017?

Must not be the background!

 

If the banks are so great elsewhere why do the vast majority of shooters go to OH and PA State shoots? Oh, it might be because they're closer to the civilized world.

 

That's why banks 5 and 6 are so popular in PA? You've got a 90% chance of finding they're the only banks available as a walkin'.

 

I don’t believe that’s true at all, especially as a single. If you and your 4 buddies come strolling into the clubhouse at 10am after stopping at Massers for breakfast and expect to shoot a premium bank, that’s probably not going to happen. But with a little prior planning you’ll be ok. Shoot management isn’t even opening bank 5 anymore except for a few events a year where attendance is maxing us out.

 

When Jack does put up the curtain, it will be interesting to see how many shooters still presquad. RJStuart probably hates to see that curtain go up.

The excuse that you want to shoot in front of your camper is a lame one too. There is no guarantee that will happen even if you are the first one to presquad.

 

I'll make a suggestion. Send in your pre-squading form and request bank 3 for every event at this years' State Shoot. Wanna bet you'll have wasted plenty of money and got squat-unless you're one of the favorite sons. Let's not forget those who contributed $$ toward the new traps-1'st priority there too. Doesn't leave much-does it?

 

Olleolli if you would get out of the caves of Ohio & Penn. you would see what great places there are. And that people want & do pre-squad for other reasons then good banks! Sounds like the CC & Penn are holes to shoot at.

 

Call 'em what you like but they draw far more shooters than cornfields in the middle of nowhere. Well, at least out in those so called fabulous places you can stop your car most anywhere and drop a bomb without seeing another human being for miles. Wow, that's exciting!

 

Better yet, let's do some numbers. Since the Singles Championship draws app. 1,000 shooters over 12 banks that allows around 16 squads (80 shooters) per bank. That is operating at max. We all know that most other events draw far fewer shooters therefore chances of a walkin' getting bank 3 are almost nonexistent. We also know those 80 shooters are often composed of favorite sons and preferred pre-squadders. I think it's about time PA and OH draw banks in the morning of the event. It sure seems to work in FL. as it eliminates favoritism and increases fairness to all competitors. Pre-squadding should be for times only-not banks.

 

What are we betting? I just sent in my presquad for the keystone open. I believe we shot a ‘preferred bank’ in every event at the state shoot last year.

 

I’m perfectly ok with drawing banks. I hope it happens.

Like I said, roughly half the flights are held for presquading. The rest are given away to walkins, first come first served. They can’t give away squads that don’t exist if 16 flights per bank are all they can handle....

 

John...
It is a competition right? So why should you get to pull a whole squad? The op is about choosing "squads and banks." Why choose? Why get to choose? The blue collar weekend warrior cant do that. And some wonder why the ATA is dying.

 

Why can't the so called ( weekend warrior blue collar) do THAT? I pre-squad for my state the Grand & a few other shoots I'm blue collar. What does that have to do with anything?

 

Why cant the Blue Collar worker and weekend warrior take off and pull a squad for a whole week?

Are you that dumb?

 

hmmm why cant a weekend warrior do the above. Someone give this guy a clue. lololol

 

Griz, Does that make it more or less fair?

 

Why don't they do the pre-squadding on Presquad.com?? Everyone has an equal shot there.

 

Sure, and the same shooters end up on the same banks year after year.

 

Guess you never used the service. It is first come first choice. Couple squads (not banks) are sometimes held by management, but most time you get your time and bank if you book early.

 

The good bank is 5% of the banks at PA. How can most of the people get on that bank? Must be a big bank.

 

Rick, IMO presquadding doesn't affect any fairness. You can do the same thing by showing up early or late to the shoot and squadding with friends or not. If the banks are drawn out in the open just prior to shooting, it doesn't affect the you picking the field you shoot on, just the time and who you shoot with. Pre squadding just makes it easier for people driving to a shoot. I like to pre squad early in the afternoon so I can shoot and not get stuck in traffic going home. I hope that answers your question.

 

Well I should have said you need to try to be first in line as soon as the Pre squad opens. They tell you exactly which minute the pre squad starts. I understand for the Connecticut Sate Shoot if you don't pre squad within the first hours you can forget about getting your first choice. After a day, you will be lucky to get a spot to shoot in the program.

 

And picking those that might give you a target or two.
It might give you a better time to shoot, better conditions etc.

 

And if you have a job that does not permit you to have that exact minute / hour available....too bad. You can bet the sponsored shooter has his squad long before that.

 

Have a friend do it or go to the bathroom with your smartphone and do it. There is always a way to get things done if you want to.

 

Here is another way. Make it fair so all have an equal chance or like FG wrote on another thread. Go to a shoot or org that is fair.

I am looking forward to the new org or series coming.

 

Kiehl, It just might give me everything you just mentioned, and the wind might just BLOW 50 mph when I shoot, and the trap might start throwing broken birds when I shoot, and it may thunder & Lightning...........I could go on forever
Everyone just needs to GET OVER IT...........as long as they offer Pre Squadding people are going to use it. Everyone needs to quit bitchin and if enough people don't like something, change the rules.......Thats why they have rules and limits

 

Old school why do I have to pre-squad for the whole week? If I only shoot a few days I can squad for what I want. But I'm not a big dog.

 

Maybe thats why your bark is so squeaky???!

Dave Berlet

 

Tshot....why cant you follow the thread? That was a quote from another person. Are you senile or a child?

 

3 years ago my squad did the presquad thing for the Ohio State Shoot 1 week after presquad opened. It was quite the ordeal for us to get commitments and agreement when everyone could be there and what events we would shoot. Some guys don't care to shoot doubles! Some won't shoot 3 events in a day. All of us have a camping package, but some can't get there till Wednesday. These are all long time friends, and cutting someone out because they can't confirm a date they'll be there would offend some, and in some cases jeopardize friendships.

We signed up for Thursday thru Sunday. All the events. We got a requested bank on 1 event. We never got stuck on 5-7, but shot most events on 1, 8, 9,. We've never presquadded again.

That's not the big problem though. The problem is when a full squad wants to shoot and they walk into the CE building and are told they have to shoot banks 5-7, and no other banks will open till those are filled......and they were in the CE building at opening time! Then you have to make 3 trips back to see if RJ Stuart has finally agreed to open other banks, which can be just after the event starts to 1 hour after it starts. Many times they close it down again, and you have to go back a third time!

I don't know what the percentage of shooters is between "drive ins" and campers, but every drive in shooter that hasn't presquadded will be affected by this as well. Especially if it's a 3 shooter or full squad.

This pisses off people. Those same shooters are just going to wait till Stuart opens additional banks anyway, so instead of forcing them to make multiple trips back to the CE building, why not just keep the better banks open, sign up those full squads right then and there, and if it extends the event so be it. It will anyway, cause they are going to wait to sign up on an acceptable bank anyway after Stuart finally opens up squading on better banks!

When the CC has events run late into the afternoon, and people quit signing up because they realize they'll be shooting when the sun is setting because it's getting too late, or shoot offs are affected, maybe they'll finally realize the current system isn't working. Heck, we shot doubles last year at 7:00 PM, yet banks 5-7 were nearly empty in the first 48 -60 squads!

It's about presquad $$$ and RJ Stuart's attitude. Jack and the OSTA have to realize it is affecting their customers.

 

Without some form of presquadding I don't think CC could handle the lines waiting to squad.

 

I don't see where the OP mentioned the CC. Indian State Shoot does it with ease. Vandalia could do it. That was before computers and with a much bigger crowd.

 

The post above mine referenced the CC. No offense to the OP intended. I'll hold up my hand next time.