Seriously. What does it take to make trapshooting great again?

Is the sport on the rebound? What do we need? Do we have everything?

 

The sport as we knew it is dragging along in many areas. Local leagues are holding their own but a shadow of what they were 30 years ago. Sporting Clays ate Traps lunch and caters to the millennials. The old timers who made Trap great are rapidly dying off with fewer youths to take their places. Hunting small game is long gone so no need for those hunters to get out and practice. The future looks bleak.

The only thing we have left is try and bring the money back in the game. That always was our strength but cast aside in favor of more trinkets in more classes. Too many smart shooters voted with their wallets and refuse to hand out their weekly grocery money to under-handicapped top shooters. Add yardage, eliminate money punches and police sandbagging more effectively and we might be able to make ATA Trap more attractive. We proved in our local leagues by adding substantial money prizes attendance stopped falling and actually increased a bit.

Casino revenues continue to rise with more new ones on the horizon in many states. People still love to gamble regardless of economic fluctuations. There ya go-the Trapshooting world as 'dawg sees it.

 

We need some younger blood in the "in charge" people for national and state groups. We need more youth involvement from high schools and college, but with the current list of school shootings, that will be a hard nut to crack. Maybe we need a "professional class" for shooters that make a living on the sport vs the weekend warrior who goes out to shoot once or twice a week who has a regular job and a family to feed. Oldawg has many good points.
As Spock said, "The good of the many out weigh the good of the few". I hope the association officers think about that.

 

The game of Trap Shooting has evolved into a feeding ground for those that should be separated from the Masses and placed in a Professional Class, (Pro's against Pro's for their own money) with the computer programs available today that is as easy as pushing a button ... Daro Handy said right out he was a professional trap shooter while others that are will never make that claim, probably with a few exceptions ... I wish I had a dime for every time I went to a shoot and heard other shooters say "so and so is here, might just as well make out a check and give it to him or her " ... There was a time when there was a lot of money to be had with a less than perfect performance, this seems to have changed in most circumstances ... I see more and more trap shooters going over to sporting clay's where a less than perfect performance can still pay off even though the classes are getting more saturated with some very good shooters who are usually in the money ... The changes begin at the Top, until that happens trap shooting will die a slow and painful death, confirmed by attendance records from what used to be the Gala event known as the grand American Championships ... I'm not sure there are a enough people who really give a S _ _ T anymore to make it happen ... Young Blood and ladies being elected into positions where they can do the most good may help but it will take a long time for that to happen so most of us who have been around awhile will never see it ... The trap ranges are full, no body is interested in registered shooting any more like they once were, must be that Progress we always hear about ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It seems in today's age that the win in competition is not necessarily what the new trapshooters ( last ten years) want it seems that the thing to do is make sure that everyone that attends gets a prize ( no matter how small) score appears to be irrelevant. This is one of the reasons that registered trapshooting has in my opinion declined. Until we bring back true competition and remove some of the classes (2 Lady classes, when 1 would do, Junior Gold, Sub Veteran) would do for starters. I left myself open on this one so Flame away.

 

WPT, I think you're wrong. Although I now qualify for Sr Vet, I didn't shoot my first trap target until 6 years ago so I consider myself a new shooter. I've never been interested in the trinkets and none of the other new shooters I've talked to (other than kids) seem too interested either. We like to shoot, like to challenge ourselves but the game is stacked; you can't compete. If it's not the pros it's the D shooters winning class with AA scores. Seeing tie after tie after tie with scores of 100 and people lined up for shoot-offs. The casual shooter has nowhere to go in this sport. It's quite discouraging at times and it's surprising that even more don't drop out.

 

So, after my posting above @ 9:35 AM , I got an interesting phone call inquiring why or how any one would propose a separation between those who are reasonably established as Pro's and the average every day shooter ... I at no time ever said that any of the so called Professional shooters or established top guns should be penalized in any way other than be separated from the Masses by having them shoot against others as qualified to the same level (Pro's against Pro's money) as to giving lessons (Clinics) to help support their shooting at and giving lesson at most of the bigger shoots to off set their costs ... I do not care if they get free ammo, free guns, sponsorship money, expenses paid, free meals, Hats, Tee Shirts, special parking spots, preferred squads, and or fill in the blanks _____, _____, _____ , ... I did say those that have established them self as Amateur (Professional ) shooters should be separated from those who do not and cannot compete at that level even though on any given day they could possibly ( not probably ) come home a winner ... (Blind squirrel finding a nut type thing ) There are a lot of shooters who took many years to accomplish making the 25, 26, or 27 yard line due to a limited shooting schedule or for what ever reason they do not and will not go to a lot of the bigger shoots only to be faced with going to bigger shoots and having to shoot against the Pro's on their turf ... There is a Hall of Famer from Minnesota that said a long time ago, (name escapes me right now ) the average everyday shooter cannot compete against the Top Guns for obvious reasons ... The Pro's do not want any separation because that cuts into the winners paychecks but something has to be done to start trapshooting on the come back trail, maybe, just maybe that would be a good start ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I consider the glory days of trapshooting to be the late 60's. We would have 20 squads show up for a registered monthly club shoot with no prizes. Saturday practices kept 2 traps going non stop for 6 hours straight. At least half of the shooters were union members from the local washing machine factory (Maytag). Those guys made 30K with paid insurance and pensions. Trap was $1.50/round and reloads cost $1.00. Gas was 40 cents/gallon, a new car was $3,500 and my dad paid $30/month to rent a 3 bedroom farmhouse. Those middle class factory workers no longer exist. Until we can return to the economics of that era, trapshooting will only be available to the fortunate few with the disposable income and time that we see today. Changing the "rules" will do nothing to increase participation by any significant degree.

 

Agree with scorpion 33. When raising family did not have time or money to spend on alot of shooting. When as a kid going to trap shoots with dad & uncles. You would see Model 12, Remington 870 or 1100. Not offten would you see any high dollar gun.Today rare to see someone shooting m-12, 870 or 1100. Just shoot at Silver Dollar this past week. With money spent on high end guns, golf carts, motor homes. Shooters still complained about target cost. Were does prize money come from put from shooters & sponors. If one group doesnot give prize money were does it come from? I only have been back shooting reregistered trap for 10 years. Just average c class shooter. Only play Lewis class and hope for best. I like to shoot all the shootgun sports. Not in it to make money, just to have fun.

 

Trap shooting began as folks in a field, shooting what they had at live birds.
Its not longer live birds (for the most part) but in most communities its still folks in a field shooting at clay's. 20 squads? With smaller clubs 20 shooters is usually a bunch. It depends a lot on the area, depends a lot on the size of the clubs, depends tremendously on whether or not the shooters enjoy themselves.
Had a little shoot today, we only have 2 traps and both were open. 5 shooters shot their league scores and then each shot 4 more rounds........ 6 shooters did not enter the league but just shot trap on the other trap house. Started at 9:30am, and finished by 12:30pm..... great day, drank coffee, ate a few home made tarts, shot some trap and told some stories. Oregon ATA I guess decided 8 traps are needed to shoot the State ATA competition...... Held state in LaGrande 2 or 3 times, split it one or two years with Medford. 50 competitors total?? I suspect the future of TRAP will have to start again with what worked so many years ago...... a few folks in a field shooting what they have and build on that to something better than the current system..... did not happen overnight then and certainly will not be an overnight effort now......... Larry

 

II think the big divide in this discussion is over "ATA" shooting and TRAP SHOOTING, to me these are two different animals. ATA shooting is where it is at because of 20 plus years of really bad bad choices by the ATA EC's. Making the targets too easy, too many categories, no mandatory reductions, and delegates that don't know about trap shooting history and not caring, too many complicated rules, too many satellite grands that killed chain shoots and hurt small clubs, financing of expensive trap guns that made ATA appear too exclusive and snobby (like skeet was when I started ATA in 1974). Throw in taking the added money out of shoots and the shitty trophies (we used to shoot for gold coins and silver, guns and cars, not RIBBONS and it cost less) the move away from the shooter base to SPARTA and the EC doing nothing in the last 12 years but trying to prop up SPARTA and well you got today's ATA.

Now TRAP SHOOTING is doing well around me with small clubs 1, 2, 3 traps shooting Lewis class and practice shoots on Sundays' and one nite of the week, not just two or three clubs but many. These "little" clubs are where the few ATA shooters would come from back in my day. We'd shoot enough ATA to go to the Grand or State shoot to shoot for the money but not thousands and thousands of practice registered like today's shooters shoot.

If you go to one of these clubs you'll find all economic classes of gun lovers like ATA used to be that want to shoot trap for fun, but also to WIN something. With the current set up that the ATA has registered shooting is doomed to limp along at best but TRAP SHOOTING will survive in places, I doubt everywhere.

My recommendation if the ATA wants to survive are simple, make it harder to break targets, do away with all the categories, and I mean all make it about breaking targets and go back to class shooting like it was when trap shooting became great, get the money back into the sport and for God's sake make mandatory reductions and get all the old old 27 yarders off a yardage they have no ability at to be on, all they do is screw up the true handicap system an they DO NOT have the rite to be there, they may have earned to the 27 but that doesn't give them a life time lease there just because of it, you should have to earn the rite to stay there too.

But if any out there think the people running the ATA are smart enough to do this please tell me why you think that, I'd like to hear that explanation. Brad Dysinger

 

Several NE Oregon shooters are interested in the ATA registered shooting but lack the time (or finances) to do the travel needed to take part. Reading the rule book (shock,shock) caused me to make a phone call..... Basically, with 5 shooters you can put on a registered event, no prizes, no cash back, just pay the club for your birds and the daily ATA fees and send in the scores.... I talked with several shooters and they are will be happy to shoot. When the winter goes away I am sure Wallowa will put on a couple "puny little no cash/prize" shoots just to see how it rolls.... Larry

 

So how do they screw it up? Whose bull gets gore by some noncompetitive 27 yarders willing to feed the pot?

 

Gambling is not the way forward. Trap is facing a problem affecting many recreational activities. Men are simply being consumed with family obligations and are having no free time to pursue sports, hobbies, or interests. Men also find their cell phones more interesting than the real world, so they aren't needing to look elsewhere for excitement or fulfillment.

 

Is the goal trap shooting or trap competition?

 

Somking357
Both! Shooting targets for improving your skills is one part. And the competition is what to do as a shooter improves. Brad I don't get what moving off the 27 will do to help? How do they screw the HC system? Sorry I don't get it.

 

I don't see what competing in an ATA event has to do in any way with enjoying trapshooting.

Getting people to the range busting targets is our major frontier. Looking at making a non-shooter an ATA competitor is like flirting with a girl and asking her in your opening line if she wants to have three kids and a house in the suburbs.

 

Aren't they one and the same? I suppose you could define buddy shoots from the club house roof as well as shooting at clay targets launched by a foot pedal machine "trap" shooting as the targets come out of some kind of trap, but that's not what I want to shoot or what I think of as a "trap" shoot. I can go to CC 5 days a week and shoot round after round by myself or with a couple people, yak it up between targets, goof around, even try shooting from the hip. It's clay targets, right? Coming out of something called a trap machine or thrower, right? Must be trap. Might as well throw tin cans in the air in some farm field. No thanks. Five shooters, rules, etiquette, standardization - from day one that's what I liked...no point to it otherwise.

 

Not at all. For me and almost everyone I know who enjoys Trap, nobody shoots ATA or even cares to. It's nice you guys like that, but it's so not needed for other people.

For almost everyone, "Trap" doesn't equal ATA or a recorded event.

Really? You don't enjoy shooting? The joy of shooting is its own reward. There are millions of shots taken across the country, every week. Only an infinitesimal amount of those shots are in any sort of competition or recorded event.

The presumption that Trap necessitates competition may be getting in the way of attracting new shooters. There are so many recreational pursuits, only a very small number of which involve formal competition.

 

T-Shot having a handicap system that only works one way is a failure, the ATA goes on averages when they do reductions and having someone refuse them is the same as having someone refuse yardage they won, it has to work both ways to be a true representative of what is going on. These 27 yarders we are talking about are also the same shooters that bitch the loudest about the PROS, hard targets and are the major complainers in the ATA. I call them the wannabees. I know this from the years I've shot and the years I've been the TD at large shoots.

Over the years I've seen this group of shooters try and by success with $20,000 K guns, lessons every year and every gadget known to trap shooting. When this failed to bring them the glory the sought they made the targets narrower, then shorter, then more categories, then more trophies, then 300 All Americans so they could claim success, all the time bitching about the PROS who shoot narrower and shorter targets a whole hell of a lot better than they do.

Trap shooting was always about the money and the glory It was about competition and the best shot that day. ATA Trap shooting today reflects our society very well. Everyone wants to be special, bitch about others success, blame others, claim personal hurt and injury and buy there way to success instead of working hard.

I've been thinking about this for a long time now and I'm going to say it, I don't much care for the average trap shooter today, The trap shooters that were around when I started have little in common with them, I really liked the old guys when I was 19 and a newbie shooter and I paid attention to what they said. I owe them a lot more loyalty than I do any of today's whinny shooters.


The system that the ATA has been using for the last 20 years ain't working out.

Brad
PS Lepsic had 18 squads yesterday (Jan 28) for a non registered meat shoot. Just about a normal turn out around here and everyone shoots a 20 yard handicap. Even the pros..

 

It doesn't have to be ATA or recorded, but if you're not following the rule structure you're not shooting trap. You're just out there with a shotgun shooting clay pigeons. Fun, sure it is, challenging - probably not. I like to shoot, prefer traditional muzzleloaders and my paper cartridge Sharps carbine to just about anything else, but when it comes to shooting a moving clay target with a shotgun the performance is driven by competition.

 

Except, ironically, you get a better Trap experience by toughening up ATA Trap. International is brutal. Wobble is more fun. Wider angles and faster targets are more rewarding. Reduced loads let you know just how good you are. These are all Trap, indeed, better forms of Trap. When an ATA event sees hundreds of targets broken without a miss, the problem is obvious.

Actually, ATA is about the easiest form of Trap shot in the world.

So shoot some Wobble. It's far tougher than ATA. Eh, shoot what you want. It's your gun, time, and ammunition.

 

Well, although I'm an old guy, I'm a relatively new shooter and only know the ATA for what it is today. I agree with pretty much all you say. A lot of shooters will say I haven't paid my dues, been around long enough to warrant having an opinion but I too would like to see mandatory reductions, fewer categories, faster wider targets and a rigid classification structure. Force the competition. If you have friends on the 25 yd line and you want to shoot with them you're going to have to show up at registered shoots and be competitive enough to earn it; not just pick up the phone and ask ATA to move you back there. If you can't maintain break point average, you move down until you can.

 

Reductions (mandatory) should of happened and been a part of the game a long time ago if it ever was going to be, making that change today would not matter because there are not enough shooters that give a chit any more and they got used to not playing the money, that will not change into the future ... The average everyday shooter got smart a long time ago and cut off the donations to the Pro's (Top Guns) if they were shooting from the 20 yard line to and any where in between to the 27 yard line (chum to the sharks) ... The Honors and integrity got dropped by the way side many years ago, might be part of the problem that exists today but not entirely ... The Pro's found ways to fortify their incomes by giving lessons, clinics etc, once the big money at the shoots dropped off ... Many of the shooter's that used to look forward to the competition and possibly a pay off of a registered shoot play for the fun of it, so where they stand does not matter any more and many quit shooting registered .. If the REAL Back fencers want to separate them self from from the run of the mill long yardage shooters it can only be done by forming a classification ( Pro v Pro , Etc) and that will cut into the paychecks at the cashier also ... Those were the days, they are gone get used to it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Question for Mr. Dsinger. Were did the money come from to purchase cars, coins, big prize money when you were shooting? Just would like to know. Not get in a p-contest. Thanks.

 

Good question. I hope Brad gets back to answer.

I can tell you that in the 80's and up to the mid 90's there was at least a hope for the blue collar shooter he could compete. It was the weekend warriors from PA and OH that showed up in Vandalia by the thousands. The west end field was full of shooters sleeping in their cars. It was those blue collar shooters that brought the big dollars.

How do I know? I was one of those. One good score at the GAH and I paid for 2 years of college. A good score at the OSTA shoot and I got another year. A good score at the NE Grand and guess what. Another year of college.
Then there was the Tri State.....bigger $$$$ and harder targets.

Time for a graph.

 

"Time for a graph" FG, I laugh every time you put that up.

I don't think we will be seeing winston around for a while. Unless of course WPT or Doc post something. He really does have a problem with anything they post.

GOOD FOR THEM!

 

I'd be happy to tell you about the money. It was different at every club but the gist of money shooting was this. Let's say you had a car shoot. There would be a compulsory purse of 20, 30 dollars or so that all shooters played. That would be in the form of the entree fee, it would say like targets and car included (by the way when I was on the OSTA board in the 2000's the Ohio state shoot had a car shoot several times without compulsory entree fee and made money on the car each year).

Car shoots were starting to die out by the late 1970's but if you want to know more about them look up some of the old shoot programs that used to be printed in the Trap & Field mag. In the old days shoot programs for big shoots were often printed in whole but always the highlights and important stuff is there still in print. Maybe Histroybuff has some old programs he can show us.

Gold coins and guns would be for trophies, high gun winners, class winners, yardage winners, NEVER categories, and be different at each shoot but would be put up by the club. Sometimes you'd have a gun option that was separate from the trophies. Graph's at Mexico, Mo used to have two great Gun and Gold shoots each year. One in April and one in September. I broke a 100 straight 16's in April one year and got $800, a 10 Dollar American Gold coin, a 1100 Trap Gun and 10 FULL (20 Box) cases of shells out of it. There was a $10 option you'd have to play for the gun and shells but the coin was the trophies. Also these shoots were much larger than today's shoots. Mexico would have 400, 500 hundred shooters who all played most of the money and this made the pot, and their targets were tuff too.

Pa used to have a 4th of July shoot in the 80's that gave away high dollar guns, to the yardage winners not the lottery drawing winners, and I won a couple MX3's there over the years. Winchester used to hold a Shell Shoot in the 90's that was great, one year I won over 50 Full 20 Box cases of AA's, everything was champion and class but there was a small category payout, and as I look back on it that might have been the start of the category push away from high gun winners to the lottery shoot off that goes on now. Mike Jordan was with Winchester then and him and Mike Hampton were good buddies so maybe that's where Hampton come up the whole categories idea in the first place and took it to Sporting Clays and Skeet, and then the ATA.

The real money shoots were in Vegas and Reno hosted by Casinos who put up the added money and then the purse would be COMPULSORY, but divided by yardage groups so you'd shoot against shooters of your yardage. This is where the 27 yard complainer really started. There were a lot of 27 yarders out west back then that had no chance shooting against Dan, Britt, Larry, and a few others. The short and mid yardage shooters didn't complain it was the over handicaped 27 yarder and as I look back on it that is where the whole PRO shooter rants began.

I'd say in summery that the Program was what determined where the Money, Guns, Cars, and Gold Coins came from. There is zero chance of money shooting coming back to trap shooting today, using the rules and soft targets that Winston started in the 90's. Neal Crausbay was the last good ATA president that got what money shooting was about and what it meant to ATA shooting and after him the assault on competition started. You'll notice that as the targets got easy the money and good stuff went away, followed by the shooters. Today half the 32000 ATA shooters are the kids of the SCTP that are forced to join the ATA and the other have very old old shooters, but as Flyersarebest knows live birds are where it is at today, and in all honesty where it has always been. Brad

 

The Club/Program could/would "determined where the Money, Guns, Cars, and Gold Coins came from." ..... The "how" it was accomplished gets a little lost .....

Any Company/Corporation is interested in return on "advertising dollars spent", where most of the "Cars/Trucks/Motorcycles/prize money/guns" was "generated" .....

Look at "Budweiser/Anheuser-Bush" in the "Vandalia Days", where there were actually many thousands of "potential customers" shooting in mid-summer heat ..... to now "in Sparta" where half of the very low attendance is not old enough to "drink" .....

A "Car/Truck/Motorcycle Company" that may "donate for advertising" or sell a Car/Truck/Motorcycle "at cost", would also look at the "age" and number of potential customers they were using "advertising dollars" to reach ..... not money well spent if half the very low "participation" is not old enough to "drive", or purchase a "Car/Truck/Motorcycle" .....

A "Casino" would see the "advertising investment" the same way ..... not enough possible return with the current very low attendance, and "age" considerations of possible "customers" not old enough to "gamble" .....

In the "Glory Days" the "target presentation" and "pulling" were used as "protection" for a "Club investment" ..... Many "Club Jackpot Shoots" would go a long time "unclaimed/won", using "hard targets/bad pulls" as a "control", keeping the attendance high ..... So they had an "incentive" to make things much harder .....

It wouldn't take "new thinking" or "young blood" to roll back many of the "harmful improvements" ..... but, it would take a great deal of "intestinal fortitude" .....

 

Car prizes at tournaments date back nearly 100 years. Here's an early program advertisement from 1927, but they were shooting for new automobiles before this date.

​

The 1935 Florida State Shoot offered a brand new 1935.



The Stifal Bros. staged several car shoots. Here's the winner of a 1955 Plymouth Station Wagon.

​

A 1957 Cadillac was offered by the Sahara Gun Club.

​

And here's the Jeep Scrambler won at the 1981 Grand American Handicap tournament.

​

While I don't have a count, I believe there have been hundreds of car shoots over the years.

Enjoy Our History !

HB

 

Thank you Mr. Dysinger & History Buff for all your info.

 

1935 you have nearly as many shooters at the grand shooting for a car. And that was during the depression. It makes me laugh when a "Kool Aid Drinker" says no one goes to the GAH due to the economy.

 

Also note the caption where the Jeep Scrambler was won. It was only the second time that two perfect scores were tied. And note there were nearly twice the shooters as today's GAH. Another time for a graph.

 

Cars are a thing of the past.. Shooters shot themselves in the foot.. Auto markers did parking lot surveys, and found that their monies would be better spent elsewhere.

 

Auto companies never gave the cars to the clubs in the first place oldskt94, the clubs bought them from dealers and shooters entree fees paid for them. As Family guy pointed out it was the number of shooters that made this possible, the crowds of ribbon shooters ain't there today to make it happen. The ATA should be the ones doing parking lot surveys. Brad

 

Didn't some clubs, or organizations such as the OSTA, offer cars or money as prizes through an insurance company. The premiums were set by the ins. company after they researched the previous scores at the club and set certain guidelines, for example all "new shooters" shot from the 27, and every shooter had to be classified at the proper yardage.

The premium was a percentage of the value of the prize. Say it was $100,000.00 first place so the premium might be 10% or a little more in some cases. NOT saying this is exactly the way it was done but I remember a club in SW PA giving away a vehicle for 100 straight in caps and they didn't have to pay the full price for the vehicle.

BTW, there WAS a 100 straight, there was a little controversy about he shooters declared "category" , but the club decided that it wasn't worth the bad press and the young shooter was awarded the vehicle.

Of course this was back in the good old days when the targets were tougher and everybody had a chance.

 

The most telling line in the description of the winner at the 1981 GAH?

3,762 entries!!!

Today's ata reminds of these guys. If the "fantastic direction" doesn't really pan out just spin it.

 

I have been shooting for about 10 years and I have not noticed any large decline at NY major shoots. The ATA has net assets of over $14 million. There has been $100,000 and high end guns prizes at shoot since I started. Is money the only reason the majority shoot for? I don't think so and I surely hope not. It would be interested to see a history of total ATA targets thrown over the last 20 years. You can have less shooters and more targets thrown for many reasons.

 

I see you obviously haven't been around very long either. Let's look at attendance figures from the last 10 years at the largest State shoot in the country and right in your backyard. In 2006 there were 1,604 entries in the Singles championship-in 2016-1,095. The Handicap championship fielded 1,164 entries in 2006 but 10 years later totaled 774. If that isn't significant then what is?

 

A fact is that trapshooting needs a constant influx of new shooters.

The sad fact is new shooters overwhelming choose sporting if it is available in their locale.

 

Is there a lot of money in Sporting Clays? Lots of people shoot it at my club and it seems like they are okay to shoot terrible scores there. Some of them shoot trap and you constantly hear them joke about how bad they shot.

 

So? The fact is the newbies tend toward sporting.

 

So, why? Just asking.

 

Sporting is just fundamentally and intrinsically more appealing to them. Plus it is more social, and that's important to the newbies coming out with their friends.

 

Shooting the same target, again and again, might not appeal to everyone. Seeing scores of 300/300 might be a turn-off. I like five stand and wobble, but I definitely get the attraction of sporting. Sporting is like a hunt but you don't actually have to kill anything.

When people are looking for a new recreational activity, gambling on their performance isn't even considered, these days.

 

Sporting Clays has a much more relaxed shooting structure .....

When Trapshooting you have to fit in the rhythm of a squad, without causing any distraction ..... Trapshooting also has the disadvantage of some having a "worse background" in a "limited" shooting area .....

So ..... shooting for "shits and giggles", Sporting Clays offers a much more "scenic view" where everyone shoots the same "conditions", and where talking, rhythm, non-shooter movement, and score are not as critical .....

 

Bring back Grand to anywhere...Ohio

 

I don't think the glory days will ever come back. Things change. When I was a kid every small town/burgh had a trap club/conservation club. You went to church on Sunday mornings then went to the conservation club to hang out, drink beer and if you wanted to compete at something you shot trap. Back then EVERY and I mean every kid had a long gun, (shotgun, 22, pellet gun) by the time they were 13, and knew how to use em.

Now if you seen a kid walking down the street with a BB gun - 98% of the people would call the law. Things change .

 

I can walk to 5 clubs in a morning. My area is more pro-gun than ever. A target distributor once said only one in 10 targets are registered in OH and PA.

Vienna can have 30 squads on any given Wednesday morning. Most of those were once the weekend warriors.

 

Family guy where are you at? Must be nice to be able to walk to 5 clubs.

 

Said I could walk. I have new parts just put on my frame. Walking with a gun bag is way too much. NE Ohio. I can get to 100 clubs in a morning drive. I can drive to 5 of the 7 largest shoots in a morning. Great idea putting that place in Sparta.

 

GOTCHA!

Your post said CAN, now you say could. I'm going to need to see a graph showing the exact distance for each club. Also will need to see the elevation of each club compared to your starting point and the degree of difficulty before and after you had the parts installed. The exact times for each distance would of course be needed to see if you could really do what you say.

Time of year, weather conditions, what type of equipment you carried. Which gun, number of shells, vest or pouch, 7-1/2's or 8's, etc. you carried,what you ate before you departed, did you drink coffee or tea, regular or decaf, and any other pertinent information would be needed to ascertain if you could really walk to that many clubs.

Also, a list of those parts you had installed, their manufacturer, and a precise comparison of those parts against the same parts made by competing companies would also be required to see if they were the best parts to use. For example, if the doctor used parts from say a company like ACME Parts and Stuff your results could be different than if he used parts made by the biggest parts company in the world. Apples to apples ya know.

One last request. I will need to know the name of your doctor and a list of his credentials. Did he tell you could or couldn't walk to 5 clubs or did you just hear this from some has-been patient that told you it was possible?

NOTHING is possible without a graph, you of all people should know that.

Added as an EDIT: All of what you post as a reply is still just your word that you had these parts installed.
I will need to see the X-Rays and the old parts to determine if you really needed new ones.

That way I can compare through intense testing,(I will perform the operation on myself) to see if the parts were the correct ones in the first place.

 

Flyersarebest, now that is some good stuff. Brad

 

Thanks, just keeping it reel

 

I will say I'm not as good at these tests as the "graph master" but he has had a lot more experience with testing. Which is understandable since he has preformed so many cranial rectal inversions on himself he could probably do them in his sleep

 

Get rid of registered targets, make tournaments open, classified the shooter based on his skill on the day of the tournament.
and not considering any previous class classification. If the shooter shoots a AAA score today and tomorrow shoots a D score that's all he can do in that day,.In this way the very talented shooters can surface at any tournament.

 

That's the idea behind Lewis Class.

 

There is a very serious change taking place that all need to consider.... Not ATA, Not PITA, Not NRA, not any of the initialed groups hosting and working with trap or for that matter shooting in general.
I am going to throw out some numbers that need to be considered in ANY discussion relating to shooting... Don't crucify me cause they are not exact but I am using them to make a point.
100 years ago..... 100% of the population owned guns, shot them, hunted, trapped, went to war and were proud to be Americans.
50 years ago...... 60% owned guns,50% shot them, 30% hunted, `10% went to war and were proud to be Americans.
Today.......... Put in your own numbers........ Perhaps history buff knows the correct one but we have to consider that today the liberal side of our nation thinks the only war to fight is the one agains MY PRESIDENT.
I suspect that before the world of trapshooting can get better our nation has to get MUCH BETTER at supporting and defending AMERICA....... just my opinion guys....... Larry

 

Sad but true.

 

More sad yet, but still too true.

 

Too, too true. I spent my adult life in the shotgun sports. I've shot them all, even flyers when I was a DINK. I took a pretty long trap vacation, but came back to trap mainly for a league. I was surprised how many very, very high priced guns there were at the league.

I spoke to one of the owners of a hyper-expensive, custom-made gun. He mentioned that he doesn't shoot registered. I guess he read the shock on my face and he volunteered how very few members of the league shot registered. I pointed out some of the other hyper-expensive guns on the rack and he noted none of their owners shot registered.

 

There ya go. Surprised it took that long. "Its the economy". Those thousands of blue collar workers that flocked to Vandalia on the weekends didn't all have cushy jobs. And the great depression was part of the golden era of trapshooting.

Time to repeat my previous rant.......
___________________________________________

The Great Depression had a huge Grand.

Maybe you remember the gas lines of the seventies. Vandalia was booming then.

Then there was Nixon's double digit inflation. Vandalia was booming then too.

The malaise of Carter with a deep recession. Booming years for Vandalia.

The darkest day was the Friday the steel mills closed across Ohio, PA, MI and WV. Bumper year for trapshooting.

Black Thursday, the year of the stock market crash. Another good year.

Then there was the Dot Com crash. Mere bumps in the road for trapshooting.

Remember Clinton's saying it's the economy stupid. Great days for trapshooting.

We refer to those bad times as the Golden Age of Trapshooting.
Trapshooting could handle just about anything....until trapshooting left the trapshooters.

Removing the sport from trapshooting didn't help much either.

 

Before the targets were changed the OSTA had a $100,000 jackpot for anyone getting a perfect 100 on the handicap. The company sponsoring the 100K made sure the traps were certified to be legitimate 3 hole targets. Around 2,000 shooters. No perfect 100's.

 

I think trapshooting is still great. Look at the growth in the number of ladies and kids getting into it. SCTP and AIM and 4H and the USA Clay target program.
The number of high schools with shooting teams especially with the issues with mass shootings.
The number of colleges and universities that have shooting programs is astonishing.
The gun manufacturers and shooting apparel that has developed.

All this whining and crying about the "Good Old Days" is just that, whining and crying.
The game morphed into what it is today because it needed to.
Gun clubs can be open every day now, if they choose to because of trap machines that hold hundreds of birds and voice activated releases. They don't need all the manpower they used to. One person can keep several traps full and no pullers are needed. Heck, they even have contraptions to roll around to pick up empty hulls.

I don't think that many walked away from trapshooting because targets changed or voice pullers or the money left or Vandalia is no more.
They left because there is just too much other stuff to do that takes away from it.

Just my opinion.

I know 98% of the kids doing it now will walk away when mom and dad quit paying but a lot of them will come back eventually.
I did when my kids were old enough to introduce them to the game.

 

Smelly dog....then support that crap. What percent come back?

What percent of the aim and sctp shooters are still participating after dad or grandpa quit paying? And what percent quit during and after college? Your statement. Back it up. What percent come back?

Another empty statement Smelly dog. How many shooters from PA go to the grand vs how many went when it was in OH with 5,000 shooters?

 

Statman

I'm not trying to start an argument.
No one knows how many don't come back.
No one knows how many do.

I also don't know how many shooters from PA go to the Grand now that it's in Illinois.
The ones that go, go because they want to, I would say.

You act as though PA is the only place there are trapshooters or the PA trapshooters are the only ones that matter.

 

Smelly,
Every trap shooter counts, no mater where they live. Do not forget that. The move was voted down by the members, but went to Ill. anyway. Trap shooters are not lemmings, they follow their own ideas of what they want. Roger C.

 

Well, I do remember a ton of All-American junior and sub-juniors who shot with my son in the early to mid-90's. I also remember only one who came back-Dave Shaeffer. Even he's now on sabbatical.

 

California used to have more ATA shooters than Ohio so moving the Grand Closer to them, you would think if we use Smellydogs reasoning, would mean more Californians at Sparta than Vandalia. Check the Stats Statman, ain't so.

Dumb Ass decisions by the EC are the reason the ATA is shrinking, not the economy, not sporting clays just plain stupid. Brad

 

The original post or thread titlehas NOTHING mentioned about ATA trapshooting.

 

Thank you. There are many forms of Trap worldwide. Our goal is to get more Americans to a Trap range and breaking targets. It's a success if we introduce a new shooter to any of the shotgun sports. Whether a shooter joins the ATA is almost irrelevant to this end.

 

"Ours" is plural. You'll have more credibility if you continue to use "my" in your ideas rants.

 

Yeah, Oleo, heaven forbid you might want to want to improve the sport.

 

"The new and improved trapshooting" as suggested by smokin' includes replacing all existing trap machines with wobble machines. He's so confused he fails to understand that existing traphouses are much too high for proper presentations. I suppose we could simply replace all the existing houses or lower the pedestals, saw off the roofs and deepen the flooring to comply with his wishes. I'm sure he's deeply involved in a complete cost analysis and we should expect more silly numbers pulled from the sky to cement his position.

In the meantime I'll just go about breaking countless more Trap targets in addition to my 53 years of continued experience while missing an occasional one with my 1 1/8oz. reloads. Of course, my targets shot all have scorekeepers and many are registered in this unknown to him book.

 

The little clubs that have shot Registered Targets for years have carried the ATA on its back by collecting daily fees and promoting trap shooting at the grass roots level ... The ATA says they promote Trap Shooting, I guess hosting the grand is a promotion now ... The changes have to start at the TOP and trickle down not as its has been for so many years starting at the clubs and working their way up ... The ATA turned the shooters against them and they are the ones who can undo the damage that has been done, but ignoring the clubs and shooters that made them is not the way to do it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I suggest that we refer to smoking357 as SMOKINGWEED from now on. It reflects his post much better. Roger C.

 

SmellyDog the Ohio & Pa shooters don't go to the Grand because it's not in their backyard! After 12 years they can't get over it. Some say it's that Ill is a gun hate state but that BS. They can't get past Vandailla & the good OLD days!

 

Thank you for speaking for ALL of us PA shooters.

You arrogant putz

I'll tell you what I can't get over. That you Kool-Aid Drinkers think things are just fine with the ata and the move of the "grand" away from so many shooters was the best thing that could happen. You want to compare numbers?

12 years might seem like a LONG time for you.

You are right about one thing. THEY WERE THE GOOD DAYS!

And remember this when you moan about the OH and PA shooters not showing up in the middle of BFN.

I DIDN'T LEAVE THE ata, THE ata LEFT ME

 

T-shot is back on dad's computer again to prove he knows nothing about the sport or it's history.

Ohio has 3 of the top 6 shoots in their backyard. Two of the top 6 shoots are in PA. And stupid isn't bright enough to know most of the Illinois shooters don't go to Sparta. Why would OH or PA travel to the gun hate state when 5 of the 6 largest are in their backyard.

OH was 4th or 5th in attendance there. Probably fewer this year.

To all you unknowing folk. T-shot doesn't shoot there either.

 

T shot just uninvited all those from PA and OH. Did that make trapshooting better?

 

Smelly....
You are not a marketing or math whiz. That's OK.

PA is the only place there are PA shooters. OH and PA have over 2/3 of all the trapshooters. That figure has nothing to do with registered shooters. OH and PA have about the same number of shooters.

Less than 300 shooters between OH and PA attend. Out of tens of thousands between the two states.

 

There are plenty of reasons why us PA shooters don't attend the grand-just being in IL is only one of many.

 

Statman

I never claimed to be a marketing or math whiz.

Do you honestly believe doing away with hand pulled, three- hole targets will is what killed trapshooting?
It probably didn't help it a whole lot but that's not the only cause.
I believe a lot of it was the "Good Old Boys Club" mentality found at many clubs for years.
I witnessed it first hand at both the local clubs that hold registered shoots when I got involved 11 years ago with my son.

We heard comments like,
" Why are all these damned kids here?"
"Why don't they make the kids shoot a different day?"
"It'll be dark by the time we get to doubles because of all these kids!"
"They only shoot singles, make them shoot last."
" I don't want to squad with any of them!,"

Really made us feel welcome. Just like you.

Thanks!

 

Educate yourself. Don't make it my job.

Easier targets only chased away the money shooters and the blue collar shooters by ruining the handicap system. See recent stats about grand slams. Educate yourself. It also helped chase away the blue collar shooters in PA and OH. That is where the majority of those shooters are. They (blue collar shooter) still go to shoots. They participate in meat shoots in OH and PA that are bigger than many satellite grands. Or just shoot practice. It is a better buy.

No handicap no blue collar shooters.

Move the big shoot away from the blue collar weekend warriors and they don't attend.

With only 1 of 10 targets being registered in PA the ATA is only an after thought. I didn't think the thread was about saving the ATA. It is about saving trapshooting.

 

I said that a couple of days ago that this thread never was about the ATA, but it always comes up in almost every thread.

 

Don't think only blue collar shooters are at the meat shoots in OH and PA. I see expensive guns on those racks. White collar shooters often are businessmen and don't like wasting money.

 

Nothing will change till shooters quit fighting with shooters. Nothing will change as long as organizations rather than individuals control the activity.
Good ol days??????? New shooters regardless of age know nothing about the "good ol days" and could probably care less. I have to guess most shooters probably do not travel much over 100 miles to shoot..... they are after a bird to shoot at a total cost they can afford......
But, go ahead, pick on one another. Ignore what it truly takes to keep shooting going strong. That's fine if that is what you find pleasure in. Like watching the battle between Dems and Repubs....... screw the nation and the people..... just pick a phrase of the day and a bad guy and fly with it.......... Larry

 

Larry, This is an open discussion forum. Do you and smelly dog understand what that means? It means that difference of opinions are welcome on here. You have your's many others have theirs, that is what we discuss. Roger C.

 

That is the very reason I am not shy about voicing my opinion's and thoughts..... Differences in opinion make the world go round and round.
The objective is to "Make it great" right? It is a waste of energy and time to attack other posters..... The situation that was in place so many years ago to get things going will never happen again..... People, politics, ethics, laws have all changed. There has to be a common objective and a constructive path built to get to that objective......
Often I get the impression that some folks go out of their way to anger and frustrate others..... If I can make you mad enough I can beat you in any discussion and change objectives...... a common tool used in politics and many business dealings....
Open forum to me does not mean the only way to make my points look good is to make someone else look bad or anger them...... Larry

 

Earth to Larry. You offered nothing to help the sport. Only complained about our discussion. You made yourself look bad. The thread is doing great.

Follow the lead of OH and PA. Trap is doing great there. Or do it the Mississippi / ATA way.

Thanks for nothing Larry.

 

What you think on getting rid of registered target? Will encourage people to compete and keep trapshooting alive.
Young blood will reflresh the business

 

Here in Ohio I can shoot all kinds of non-reg clays and trophies is hard cash. Just last week my buddy won first place trophy at a 60 bird shoot...$1600.00 cash

 

Stay on topic Smithy....... It's not about me or my opinions.... It is an open forum and you object to my posts? My only real point was that an attack on posters did little to further the discussion. What do you offer? I am open to anything constructive and positive and attempt all sorts of things to help perpetuate shooting beyond my life span and assist young folks to take part. I trust you are involved in a similar fashion.
Currently I am coaching/helping with two high school teams and a college team effort. Both clubs I am a member of make serious contributions to these efforts also. Mid February the Wallowa FFA Alumni with the help of the Wallowa Rod and Gun Club is hosting the annual FFA meat shoot.... average attendance is 60+ kids and 30/40 adults....... Mid March the LaGrande Gun Club is hosting upwards of 100 young folks for a day of trapshooting activities. Larry

 

A couple program pages from the golden days... was`nt there just have the 1974 Harolds program.
Trap3

 

Hey Larry
It was a bunch of shooters that put the GAH in BFE, aka "gun hate state". I want to fight with those shooters. Had we done that earlier or had a forum like this, that might not have happened. It was those good men that failed to fight that allowed our sport to fail.

It was also a shooter that pushed for destroying our handicap system by making targets easier. (graph please)

And it was a bunch of shooters that hid the fact that the HOF was given to the gun hate state. Yep....they own the building built with our dollars.

And there was the shooters involved in PULL2012. And the illegal gun giveaways.

Don't tell someone from PA or OH not to be passionate about the sport. I don't give a rat's ass what's happening in Wallowa. It is the destruction of the sport by fellow shooters that angers me. So quit arguing with me. I am a shooter.

 

Gee, I am a shooter also. A myopic vision and attitude of what's going on in the rest of the world is probably not the best view of things.
You started out by saying "Earth to Larry" would indicate you think the scope of things is probably broader than just OH or PA,,,,,
I am curious, where did I ever indicate folks should not be passionate? You might reconsider "give a rat's ass" about what folks are doing elsewhere to further the sport...... those activities could be beneficial in OH and PA also. Larry

 

Like Mississippi's successful push to get easier yardage. Further eroding the handicap system. NO HANDICAP NO BLUE COLLAR SHOOTERS. ATA will continue to be a trinkets only group.

Nothing to do with registered shooting. The ATA has self imploded due to the successful trapshooting states being outvoted.

 

Sure didn't help. Agreed.

 

I'm looking for some ideas to MTSGA. I'm very open to ideas.

Luke