Hey BIG PAPA (OSTA Zone Director) What up? AAA?

Hi BIG PAPA - My OSTA Zone Director
I hope you are out there. Tell us the scoop on AAA at the Ohio State Shoot. Will we have the really big boys shooting against the really big boys. Or just AA.

Let us know.

 

Big Papa resigned from OSTA director. You will have to ask John Mueller or Tony Gioffre or a director from another zone.

 

What? No way...........?
Where is BIG PAPA?

 

I am still here. Just do not check this site very often. Sara gave you the correct information. I resigned on Tuesday from the board last year at the Ohio State Shoot. I have had absolutely nothing to do with the board since then.

If I was still on the board, I would be absolutely against adding a AAA class. If you really understand how the classes and categories works, it REALLY HURTS all of the OTHER CLASSES. ESPECIALLY THE B, C AND D CLASSES. Last year JERSEY GIANT started a thread on March 20 on this site, titled OSTA CHAMPIONSHIP AAA OR NOT TO AAA. As an OSTA director at that time, I gave a very factual answer to this issue. If you take the time and review that posting, you will see where I posted a comment on March 21 and April 9. Also, there were various other shooters who understand the process who agreed with me.

 

Hi BIG PAPA
I enjoyed meeting you at the CC.
Below is Jersey Giant post link.

http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...ampionship-aaa-or-not-to-aaa.3597/#post-33744

 

I say make the guys getting free ammo shoot against the guys getting free ammo. jmho
And I don't see how we will function without you BIG PAPA.

 

I think it would or should be in the program ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...ampionship-aaa-or-not-to-aaa.3597/#post-33736

 

Who gets free ammo?

 

So, are you suggesting instead of a AAA class, they should have a "free ammo class". WOW, I know a couple of Ohio shooters that would be class AAA and I know they are not getting free ammo. I wonder how and where you draw the line? I have a good friend that had never broke a 100 straight in any event (singles or caps). One day in October, he broke his first hundred in a singles event. Later in the day, he broke a hundred straight handicap. The same thing happens in singles events where a person breaks 200 straight. Does that make them a AAA shooter? By adding another class you also increase your cost for trophies. I would guess if the OSTA add's a class AAA their cost for those additional trophies will be in the ball park of $1800. Since there is no free lunch, where are they supposed to recoup that extra expense? Also, do you add a AAA class for doubles if you add AAA for singles? I bet there would be less then five non resident class AAA doubles shooters in attendance. In my opinion, It's a no win situation.

 

Well said Big Papa, There just isn't enough AAA shooters to justify a another class.

 

Not that I'm in favor of AAA but to me it looks like its all the stupid categories not the classes that increases trophy cost.

 

Bring back the "Professional" Class.

Let them shoot for their own money, and give them a winner's medallion.

They don't give a hoot about a trophy anyway.

This way AMATEURS get to divide their money, and the Pros can can do the same with theirs, and the organizations (STATE and ATA) don't have the extra expense of more trophies.

NEVER will happen though..

 

Why not just have AAA for the weekend event?

 

How many "chairshooters" do you have? How many trophies for them?

How many "Sr Veterans" do you have? How many trophies for them?

 

Great idea BIG PAPA. We can call that a "Pro-Class" or an "Ammo Class". Just give them an atta-boy and a handshake.

BTW BIG PAPA and Sarah, thanks for responding.

 

If I remember correctly, there were 11 resident and 9 non resident class AAA shooters who attended the state shoot in 2016. A lot of extra money for all those trophies (that none of these folks want) for 20 shooters. You just cannot have resident trophies. You got to have non resident trophies also. Just look at the "unclaimed" trophy list sometime. It is not unusual for that list to have around 20 names listed. Now the worst part is what? As a director, the extra shootoff's. As a person who has worked many shootoff's, it sure makes a long day. Probably no dinner until real late, if any at all. But that is the fun of being a director. Start early in the morning and done late at night.

 

No only that, but there wouldn't be much money in the AAA purses.

 

Isn't the Ohio State Shoot one of the largest shoots in the country? If AAA is not practical at a shoot that size, then where should there be AAA?

 

I don't care about them. They just get atta boy flashlights (no batteries) if getting ammo for free, and the out of state ammo getters get the same.

I care about the AA shooters, and there are lots of them, not getting free ammo that should not have to shoot in the free ammo class.

Ties are decided by flip of the coin or takedowns. They don't pay for their shells anyway. So what? Shaeffer and Campbell can bump bellies in a sumo match. Or settle it in the lot.

And who cares about the "free ammo purse"? Raise your hand if you care!

 

Those in the "free ammo class".

 

11 of them. ZZZZZZZ Laughing

 

Instead of AAA there should be an E class for the shooters with an average below 85, hundreds of them. OR make class AAA 97 and above and make D under 85, AAA is just a name and is something a Democrat Liberal would think of. Most of the sub jr's have NO chance at all with today's class system and AAA for 20 shooter's won't change that for the better. Don't forget big PAPA if you have a AAA you also have HOA and HAA resident and non resident trophies too. Brad

 

Hey Brad, I did not forget. I was just focusing this discussion on singles. Doubles, HOA and HAA are on top of the singles. There are to many catagories. Need to get rid of a couple. Now that will start another bunch of BS (like 7.5 or 8's).

 

Don’t forget the ATA provides an ATA trophy for the class singles, doubles, prelim handicap, and the 5 championship events. In actuality, Ohio is turning down ‘free’ trophies from the ATA by not having AAA. Mainly because they are stubborn, imho. They are really screwing over the true AA shooter who isn’t quite AAA and who has little chance to ever beat the ‘free shell’ class shooters.

 

Now how lame is that?

 

Jumanji, there is nothing free from the ATA

 

When the ATA was stuffing new categories and reductions down our throat the OSTA should have told them to pound sand.

 

When the ATA decided to add the new categories, the OSTA President called the ATA President and told him the OSTA would not have the new categories at the 2012 Ohio State shoot. I know this call took place because I am the one that made the call. The new categories were optional then. Nothing to do with being stubborn or obstinate. It was our opinion that adding categories was not in the long term best interests of the sport. The number of ATA registered shooters continues to decline (except for the forced SCTP members) and all we hear from some is we need to award more trophies. Now we are to believe "a real AA class shooter", a shooter that averages 97.00% to 97.99% simply must have protection from those that average above 98.00%. What a crock of crap! This used to be a sport about competition. Narrow, soft targets and a trophy for all seems to be what a vocal few are succeeding at turning our once proud sport into. What a shame. As for the two yard reductions there is absolutely zero any State association could do or say about that. Yardage assignments are not subject to State association review or approval.

 

No not from a person that averages 98%. Protection from a professional that has free shells to shoot the shootoffs and inevitable ties. Free shells to practice and a free gun to boot. Protection from the "Pro Class" of shooters that should be in the "free ammo class" need to shoot for their own money with their free shells.

If it is about competition you shouldn't mind putting the apples with the apples.

 

Don, I'm curious what the ATA would have done had OSTA simply said no to the changes?

 

Does anyone think those without free shells believe they are not at a disadvantage? Is the marginal AA shooter that dumb? And if the free shells are not important then the pros have no problem giving them up.

 

Robb,
The OSTA did in fact simply say no to the changes. The answer to your question as to what the ATA would do is simple, they just made the new categories mandatory instead of optional.

 

Thanks Don, I guess it's all water under the bridge now. I thought if OH,PA and MI all said no the ATA would have backed down. Had they not then time for new organization which might not have been as hard as some thought. I looks like to me at least at CC Stuart does everything that the ATA does. This will be my 31st year as a member and I'm not happy with our direction.

 

LimaShooter,
Please tell me EXACTLY what shooters you are seeking protection from. Name names. Just don't tell me Ricky, Harlan, Dave Schaffer or any other non-Ohio resident as they are not eligible for ANY resident trophies. Remember, we don't have Open trophies in singles and doubles only resident and non-resident trophies. I regularly squad with Dirk Meckstroth, Rick Springer, Mike Dehabey and Carl Schultz. All those fellows average well above the 98% mark in singles which would make them AAA. Non of them get free shells or guns. I am not even close to their level of expertise in singles but I don't feel I need to have them placed in another class so I can win a trophy. On the rare occasions when I have beat those guys in a singles event I feel like I have truly accomplished something and that trophy means something to me. In fact, I normally shoot much better when they are on my squad because they push me to be better. What Ohio shooter are you seeking protection from?

 

Trophies and trinkets? Who cares? The argument isn't about the trophies. There would be more moneys played if the "free ammo class" had their own class. It is about the money. Or what little there is.

Let the pros shoot with the pros. Got free shells. Shoot with the pros. For now the AAA can shoot with the AAA.

And btw....glad that trinket/trophy you mentioned means a lot to you. Thanks for the discussion.

 

LimaShooter,
The Ohio State shoot is already one of the best money shoots in the country and we have never had AAA. Now you are trying to tell me that by adding AAA we would see an increase in option play for singles and doubles. Let's see, that should mean that all the Sat. Grands and the Grand itself must have great option play percentages because they all have AAA. Have you been sipping from the ATA kool aid cup again? Sounds like EC logic to me.

 

Absolutely. What moron would play more when his chances are less?

 

Limashooter, I can tell you have never sat at a classification desk at a large shoot. Most people who do classifications need to wear waders with some (not all) shooters. In some cases, you will have the honest shooters who says "I am not a class A shooter (because that is where his average says to put them), I am a AA shooter. The next person will drown you with gator tears because you put them in AA and they cry for 15 minutes because their average is .03 under the cut. It would be fun to see the results of a big shoot by just letting all the shooters put themselves (or let a friend classify them) in whatever class they desired. LOL.

Also, your comments imply there is money to be made in our great sport of trapshooting. This year will make my 50th year as a member of the ATA. I have not shoot all of those years do to illness in my family. I am just a few targets away from 300,000. Yes, years ago there was some money that could be made on the "once in a lifetime score". Those days are gone and will never be back. Things change. Not always as we desire. You know, if you keep doing what you been doing, you can expect the same results, unless you change. If you do not like it, get off the sidelines and grab the bull. I am sure you can make a major impact on our sport.

Back on the money point. The one thing I personally got changed at the Ohio State Shoot in Singles was the Lewis payoff's. All of the payoff's are available for you to review on RJ's website. The "OLD" payoff's was 3 classes 50-30-20%. With that payoff system, only the true class A and above have any chance of winning any money. The true class B and below are all donating to the "few shell guys". The shoot now pays 5 classes, 60-40%. With that payoff everyone has a chance to win some money.

Here are some actual information from RJ's website
2017
Event 1 99 - $37.00
87 - $44.50
86 - $98.76
Event 5 100 - $35.00
99 - $17.25
91 - $91.25
90 - $67.50
Event 8 and Event 12 have the same type of numbers.

2016
Event 1 100 - $96
99 - $28.50
90 - $96.00
89 - $85.25
Event 8 100 - $55.00
99 - $20.00
90 - $187.25
89 - $44.50

Now the way I see those numbers, "the free shell guys" are feeding the class B, C and D shooters. So, if that is the class in you are in, my all means make sure you play the lewis class on all singles events at the Ohio State shoot. You are going to get rich.

 

I can tell you how many of the "Lewis only" shooters may see those numbers .....

3 out of 4 times the score of "90" paid money ..... the best a "Lewis only" shooter can finish with is a 93/94 ..... I can see a "score adjustment" may happen .....

Call it "sandbagging" or anything else that may come to mind ..... but, the "Lewis only" shooter wants some return on investment, and looks at a "lucky number" over an "everyday score" .....

 

There you have it. Someone saying the pro free ammo group are feeding the non pros. Huh?

 

Show me the numbers the free ammo class gets when they have to shoot against their own free ammo class. Not much I bet.....suits me fine.

 

When do they decide this?

 

User 1
I'm one of those Lewis only. shooters and I don't sandbag or say if I miss a target or 2 maybe I'll hit. I do the best I can & hope for the best! And I don't like people implying us Lewis only lower class shooters doing that. If you don't like the Lewis option don't spend your hard won money on it!

 

Well, T Shot ..... I used the word "many", not "all", if you would learn how to read .....

FWIW ..... I don't have to "imply" anything ..... I know actual shooters who have/will do it, unlike many keyboard lackeys that have a post count that far outnumbers targets shot at .....

 

Limashooter50, here's some information that will support your side of the dilemma.........

AA Class /// AAA Class /// E Class

Ohio State Resident AA Class Winners

Data provided by cross referencing 11 years previous RJ Stuart and ATA records (2006 through 2016)

Resident AA Class Winner in Singles Championship
7 of 11 years won by shooter with AAA year ending average.
4 of 11 years won by shooter with AA year ending average.

Resident AA Class HAA Winner
9 of 11 years won by shooter with AAA year ending average.
2 of 11 years won by shooter with AA year ending average.

Resident AA Class HOA Winner
9 of 11 years won by shooter with AAA year ending average.
2 of 11 years won by shooter with AA year ending average.

My opinion keeping everyone in a class to match there ability including an optional E class is the way to go and do away with the category's. Select the All American teams by actual averages and event wins..................

WL

 

Through all this discussion no one on here has answered the original question is Ohio having a AAA this year or ain't it or dosn't anyone know the answer? Brad

 

7 of 11 Won by those "11 AAA free ammo class shooters" vs the field of AA shooters. Now if you were to bet.........do you bet on the 11 or the field? The wise guy doesn't shoot. No money to win either way. You just lose more if you are one of the field.

 

We were lucky to have you BIG PAPA. We need you to run for zone director again.

 

Does PA have the AAA for singles?

 

Yes, PA has a AAA class at their state shoot. There are 4 events at the PA and OH state shoots that offer a Class Purse: singles and doubles championships and the class singles and doubles events. A higher number of shooters (and greater percentage) opted to play the class purse in all 4 events at the Ohio State shoot than they did at the PA state shoot. Since Bob Stuart handles both shoots it is easy to look up the entries in the HAA event by classification. Ohio had more AA shooters listed in the HAA event than PA had AAA and AA combined.

 

In PA the top AAA singles lewis was won by a AAA shooter. In PA all the AA lewis money was won by a AA shooter. No so in Ohio.

 

Since no one has answered the question I did some inquiring of my own and was told they are studying it *AAA* For whatever that is worth. Brad

 

Brad, do you think they will have a Harley again?

 

It would be nice, or maybe a car?

 

Triple A or No Triple A - the shoots at the Cardinal Center cant be beat. jmho

 

It's AAA for Ohio, Really Dumb move. Brad

 

Lets face it Brad, you and I just see things differently than most. Like I told you, I think at this point we should cheer on those that want AAA, AAAA or even AAAAA. We should get behind a plan to add 5 or 6 more categories. Every shooter should have a category if they desire to be in one, leave no shooter out. ALL American Team should have 500 to 600 members. That should end this long slow death spiral in favor of a much faster death spiral. Its just too painful to watch it anymore.

 

Don, If you get all that done don’t forget we need Farmer Gold.

 

Robb,
Farmer Gold! I love that one. Of course, here in Ohio declaring Farmer Gold would put you into a VERY large group. I know a good many of my shooting friends are farmers, and thank god for that. I think we also need a Non-Category category for those poor shooters that just don't fit into any of the existing categories. Non-Category would be a category but like all the other categories you would need to declare so that you don't just fall into the no-category group. No-category isn't a category. Clear as mud. I tried declaring "Sub Gold Jr. Vet" once at Michigan. The guy said he hadn't heard of that one and I told him if the ATA could just make up sh!t so could I. Needless to say I promptly got classified AA-27-AA, and I'm sure I deserved that one!

 

How about 14 yard handicap for us older than dirt super seniors? It would also be nice if we could get a spot of some targets. Maybe a handicap system like they have in golf tourneys. Lets get it to a vote. Us old guys out number any other class a vote would be a fair way to judge how much our handicap would be. Roger C.

 

Roger is on to something there! We might have to work on the category name. "Older Than Dirt Super Seniors" sounds a bit harsh but it does convey the meaning really well. Now that 14 yard handicap thing could prove too tough for some. Maybe we can mount a captain's chair on the trap house? If we are going to take a vote we will need to prohibit the kids from voting as I think the SCTP and AIM shooters now make up a large percentage of the ATA's members.

 

Fossil Class. They'll turn the oscillator off and only throw you straight aways from whatever post you're on.

 

The humor is appreciated but it rings way to true, the osta just kicked all the D shooters in the head by cow-towing to a few fossils that are in AA because of easy birds they shoot today who want to feel special. Glad I quite shooting when I did. I don't have much in common with today's registered shooters.

The osta should put in a whiners class. that would be HUGE. Brad

 

Humor is all we have left, Brad! All either of us can do now is try see the humor in the absolute irony of the posts from LimaShooter50, Wildcat Lewis and thomasf. LimaShooter50 tells us adding AAA is not about trophies, its about money. Well a quick check of the payout sheets will show us that there were 52 money options at the 2017 Ohio State Shoot. Exactly 4 of those options were divided by class, the other 48 have absolutely nothing to do with a shooters class. LimaShooter50 asks "What moron would play more when his chances are less?", so I showed him that at the 2017 OH and PA state shoots, OH had more entries in the 4 class options than PA even though PA had AAA and OH did not.

Then along comes Wildcat Lewis with his stats to support LimaShooter50's position. What does Wildcat Lewis show us? You guessed it, stats on trophy winners. LimaShooter50 says it has nothing to do with trophies but Wildcat is going to support that position by giving us stats on trophies, not money options. And golly gee, shooters with higher averages win more trophies. Holy Cow who would have ever guessed that one?

Then we have poor thomasf and this little gem "In PA the top AAA singles lewis was won by a AAA shooter. In PA all the AA lewis money was won by a AA shooter. No so in Ohio." Hopefully a friend will take the time to explain to thomasf that his statement shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of how the Lewis and Class options work. Lewis money is not split by a shooters classification, only their score. So the top singles Lewis in PA and OH was won by any shooter breaking the most targets, regardless of their class. And the 4 options that are split by class are not paid on a Lewis system but rather by high score.

And lastly we have those that tell us Ohio is nuts for turning down all those free trophies that the ATA would provide if we only had AAA class. So we just added 23 AAA trophies to the program and the ATA will send us 4 of those 23. 19 additional trophies on our dime but we will get those fabulous 4 free ones from the mother ship!

Brad, please believe me when I tell you: You just cant make this sh!t up!

 

Well said duckdog, some will never understand and wow free trophies.

 

The stats don't lie. 7 of 11 times the winner of the previous AA class without AAA is the AAA shooter. That is despite there being 10X more AA shooters.

9 of 11 times the AA HOA was won by someone with a AAA average. (and probably free shells)

Statistically, you would be safe to say not every AAA shooter gets free shells. But it would be safe to say next to no AA shooters get free shells.

OSTA for now has separated those with free shells.

 

I doubt most AAA or good AA shooters are interested in more belt buckles, pewter plates or flashlight trophies. I've got a few around here if I can find 'em.

 

That's what I like about this site..............

"If you cant take the heat I would recommend staying out of this kitchen"

Don, Just to be clear on my post above with the stats I was referencing the AA class wins only, regardless of weather your shooting for class money or trophy and I do understand the trophy headache.....................

WL

 

As for the free shell argument what number of free shells would be the limit. At the Grand Remington, Winchester, and Federal reps would often times give free shoot off shells to "their" shooters in a Grand event shoot off. Women, men, kids, class and yardage didn't matter then, so would they be "pros"? Stat Man does one box qualify? The osta has done nothing to separate those with free shells, just complicate the State Shoot More than is needed. How will AAA make the shoot larger or better for the average Ohio Shooter?

I wouldn't be so upset with AAA if it wasn't such a small number of shooters who are affected. Creating a class to protect another small class like AA is stupid. If you do anything you should divide the State's shooters up in 6ths and let the average line fall where it may. .9850 or .9700 or whatever number is just an arbitrary number without research. When I started the AA line was .9650 and has crept up through time as the Winston effect of 2 hole took over the ATA.

Don I'd recommend a Blue Pill to stay sane, you and I care too much because we remember all the work we went through to make the Ohio State a success when we were on the board. I loved doing it, but would never do it again. It's just not worth it anymore. But I won't stop sharing my opinions about trap shooting and the ATA and I guess you won't either. Besides the SCTP kids are much more fun to be around than today's ATA shooters who I hardly recognize, they (ATA not SCTP) whine as much as the Skeet Shooters did when I started trap shooting back in the day.

If I'd of had Winston's money I'd never shot trap anyhow, it would have been Live Birds only for me. Brad

 

There you have it!

After all is said and done, it is Neil Winston's fault.

I was reading on the Ford Forum and it was determined that the Pinto gas tank explosions were his fault as well.

 

Trappermike, you may be in love with Neil Winston but he has undoubtedly done more to destroy ATA shooting than any one man I have known in 44 years of being an ATA member, and that is saying a lot because I have known some real Bozo's.

He's arrogant and a know it all and the rule changes that he pushed are at the root of the ATA's problems, and the men that followed him over the years share the blame. Brad

 

Hardly, lol.


Every thing here gets blamed on the EC, ATA, Illinois, pat traps, Neil Winston, etc etc etc.

I am just jumping on the bandwagon.

I suspect that SOB is behind Federal lowering the quality of their Gold Medals.

And I know for a fact that he visits Subway for lunch on a regular basis, the bastard.

 

The Backwards Virus goes to SUBWAY for lunch! I wasn't going to blame President Kennedy's assassination on him but now that I know he eats at that place I'm going to have to rethink things. No little blue pills for me Brad. I prefer good old fashioned Kentucky Bourbon or Crown Royal (especially if Terry J. is in town) to help me stay sane. Or as close to sane as I can get!

 

trappermike,

I hope your post was in jest. I am not a follower of Neil's ideas on trap shooting, but he still should get the respect that is due to every person. Your descriptions used may not have mentioned him by name, but everyone knew of who you were referring to. You should either erase the post, or post a retraction of the statements. Roger C.

 

Trappermike I don't think I know you but I hope you are sincere in what you say, Winston isn't to blame for anything that I know of but other than what I've stated. I think Pompous Ass is the best description I could give him. He seems to think he is always the smartest person in the room and dismisses everyone else. His attitude is what first turned me off about him years and years ago. I just don't like the man one little bit. His virus handle on here is an apt description of how I view his association with organized trap shooting in the ATA.

I just want to be on the record and here is as good a place and time as any for that. Winston's attitude isn't unique I might add. Over the years I've seen a lot of men with money and attitude like he has that lacked the ability to be a champion and tried to change the rules to suit themselves and that is what Winston did. I have ZERO respect for their type.

Brad

 

Everyone should cut "trappermike" some slack ..... there must be a need to post here like a mental midget to score Kool Aid Points, to become King Mental Midget in Kool Aid Land .....

The Photoshop lackey should join the graph professor, to make some pretty pictures for the Kool Aid Crew they try so hard to impress .....

 

AAA is at OSTA. Is this the great experiment? How will this affect attendance?

 

If you don't think the graph-master is the smartest guy to EVER have anything to do with the ata you can just ask him and he will tell you it is the truth.