SCTP vs ATA

The ATA will now be a competitor of the SCTP. With the move to the Cardinal Center (new contract), you will see the ATA competing for the younger shooters. You can also note that vendors are on the board that makes these decisions for the SCTP.

I may be new to this forum but you will see soon. Some vendors are doing their best to save the sport.

 

AlabamasSCTP, And you doubt that the officials at Cardinal are not saving the sport? Every one that enjoys the sport and everyone that makes a living from the sport should be doing all they can to save it. That includes getting on the state delegates asses and making them reign in the out of control EC. Up to now the ATA has only tried to get more satalite shoots to prop up the revenues of the organization. They do not seem to under stand the average shooter is where the money comes from not from the AA point competitors. The satalite grands are killing the small clubs that are the breeding ground for future ATA members, and they are falling by the way side. Many of the satalite Grands have less shooters than we used to have at a two day shoot at the Great Eastern club in central Ohio. If the ATA had been good business managers the SCTP would never had to look for another place to shoot. At the rate the ATA is falling, by the time the SCTP shooters are adults the ATA may be just a memory.
Go to SPARTA and then go to the Cardinal Center and you may change your outlook about how competitive the Sparta location can be. The only comparison between SPARTA and the Cardinal Centers is they both put targets in the air. After that the page is bare. Roger Coveleskie

 

Alabama, Do you believe the ATA and SCTP will no longer be associated with each other; SCTP state championship targets being registered, ATA paying SCTP about half of the ATA annual dues paid by SCTP members?

Personally it wouldn't bother me if the two orgs disassociated.

 

Why should the the SCTP register their targets with the ATA? What does it get the kids? Nothing in my opinion. I think you will see the ATA try to find another org that will support the failed Sparta venue.

 

I see no reason the targets should ever have been registered, but you didn't answer the question. Will the two associations terminate their relationship?

 

I think they will become even stronger competitors.

 

The ATA was throwing sporting clay targets last year.

 

The ATA cannot afford to lose more shooters, the SCTP does not need the ATA to keep and maintain records for them they can do that for them self and use the fees the ATA charges to get set up so they can keep their own records ... The WSRC is not an attraction and does not offer any additional amenities like the Cardinal Center does and the additional travel can get to be costly on a daily basis, that plus the unknowing if they will pull the plug and not provide a place to shoot the events like they did before ... The Cardinal Center was there for them the State of Illinois closed the WSRC without taking the schedule into consideration of others who had shoots planned for that facility ... I think it will be a long time before the SCTP will ever consider hosting their shoot at the WSRC in Sparta, Ill ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The ATA doesn't keep records for the SCTP now. The SCTP has a very good web based system for shoot management.

The only thing stored by the ATA are the registered targets. Most SCTP targets are not registered.

 

Registering targets is record keeping.

 

FG, yes the ATA keeps records of registered targets shot by SCTP kids.

That's not the same as the ATA serving as the record keeper for the SCTP.

As I stated previously the SCTP has an adequate record keeping program already.

 

Ahhh, so according to Iowa guy, if it looks like shit, feels like shit, you got to tasted it to make sure its shit ...
Records kept by ATA don't count as records, but for a fee ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT, you implied that the ATA was acting as THE record keeper of the SCTP.

The ATA cannot afford to lose more shooters, the SCTP does not need the ATA to keep and maintain records for them they can do that for them self and use the fees the ATA charges to get set up so they can keep their own records ... The WSRC is not an attraction and does not offer any additional amenities like the Cardinal Center does and the additional travel can get to be costly on a daily basis, that plus the unknowing if they will pull the plug and not provide a place to shoot the events like they did before ... The Cardinal Center was there for them the State of Illinois closed the WSRC without taking the schedule into consideration of others who had shoots planned for that facility ... I think it will be a long time before the SCTP will ever consider hosting their shoot at the WSRC in Sparta, Ill ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

I'm just pointing out that your statement was not accurate. I have been critical of the SCTP requiring their state and national championships being registered.

I'm not sure what your comment above is supposed to mean. In my opinion it is a shitty deal for the kids being forced to join the ATA to be able to participate in their state 16yd
Championship. The ATA\SCTP relationship is mutually beneficial to the orgs at the expense of the kids.

 

I've always taken issue with the fact my SCTP shooters MUST be members of the ATA/NSSA/NSCA. In my case, the vast majority of my shooters will only shoot ATA registered targets at our State shoot. I'm all for optional cross registering if the shooter desires, but the mandatory membership really doesn't benefit most of my shooters. As long as I'm commenting, take a good hard look at the AIM program.... Does it really promote youth shooting or is it far more geared toward selling more registered targets? I know my answer to that question.

 

I feel and have felt that the SCTP kids should not have to be members of the ATA and if they are shooting registered targets the kids should not have to have a membership card in their pocket, essentially it should be done gratis (no charge) by the ATA to entice the kids into being and or becoming long time members at some point in time ... If they are shooting State Shoots as stated then they should have to be members ... To promote Trapshooting is one of the ATA's claims, forcing kids (parents) to have an additional expense is not the way to do that ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT, just to clarify...the state shoots I am referring to are SCTP state shoots, not ATA State shoots.

I think we're in agreement on this. But, it's not an ATA issue. It's a SCTP decision to require ATA membership.

 

There would have to be a legitimate reason if the SCTP wants or requires the kids to be members of the ATA be that as it may , it seems to me it would be an additional expense for the kids or parents that would not be needed ... The SCTP seemingly would be a way to keep the kids away from some of the scum that breeds in the streets and turns good kids into bad in many instances ...
Kids getting and or being involved in trapshooting will eventually get them involved with the ATA if its their choice to continue at some point in time in the future ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT,

I can think of no "legitimate" reason for requiring ATA membership to participate in the SCTP State/National events. As far as I'm concerned it's about the money. At one time, and I suspect it's still the case, the ATA refunded 50% of the ATA membership fees back to the SCTP.

I can only speculate as to how that discussion started. I suspect the ATA approached the SCTP and said, 'require your kids to join the ATA to shoot their state championship 16 yd event and we'll donate 50% of the membership dues.' But, maybe the SCTP approached the ATA and said 'hey, we'll require all our kids to join the ATA for the state championship but we want 50% of the membership dues donated back to the SCTP'.

My team only shoots trap so I wasn't aware that membership to the governing body was required in the other areas as well. If this is true, then perhaps it was the SCTP that initiated the discussion.

 

They're only required to be members of the discipline they shoot. Mine are just ATA as that's all I coach. Sorry if that was poorly communicated.

 

Vendors are on the board of the SCTP. I would think they want to promote as many of the disciplines as possible. Is forcing them to be a member of the ATA the best way to promote trapshooting? Could be that showing them how the ATA works discourages that.

I am not so sure that the ATA is into promoting much more than whatever it takes to get a new gun. Is this about getting more revenue for the ATA?

 

ATA Promoted the STATE OF ILLINOIS Horse barn with OUR $250,000.00 donation...

Remember the "Need to Know Basis" I was told ???

Nobody knew this barn would be OWNED by the State until it was over and done with.

I was a supporter of the 1969 (ATA) Trapshooting Hall of Fame until this Non information happened...

Still support the history of Trapshooting, but I donate to one who is up front, and has excellent exposure to the PUBLIC.

Ohio THOF at the Cardinal Center is my choice now !

 

According to the ATA minutes, the ATA's AIM program will again be throwing sporting clay and skeet targets. Gee...who saw that coming?

This is about money......not about promoting trapshooting. The SCTP left the ATA in the eyes of the Sparta loving Executive Committee. No money - - no free guns. They have a complex to support.

Ha Ha you guys are the Amateur Skeeter Association!

jmho

 

AIM is about all shotgun sports. The WSRC has trap sleet & sporting clays. Perfect fit!

 

The ATA is about trapshooting. AIM is ATA. Skeet shooting added to compete with SCTP.
The new skeet shooting association.

 

The ATA does not have leadership capable of competing with the people running the SCTP. They are to accustomed to having a captive audience with the trap shooters and they still can not run an honest ship. That is a swamp that needs draining. Roger C.

 

I've asked every year why do you the SCTP make your kids shoot ATA singles, but not doubles or handicap as registered. The SCTP is team orientated, the ATA individual. SCTP get your head out of your ass and save these kids some money. The ATA offers nothing of value for 5th and 6th graders who shoot one or two shoots a year.

The event that is growing by leaps and bounds is the rifle and pistol events at the Cardinal Center. Sparta and AIM will never have that in gun hate Illinois. Kids with handguns, no way. Brad

 

In Iowa, we are only required to join the national governing body of the the discipline that they shoot at the state level, the only kids I have registered in ATA/NSCA/NSSA are the one going to a state shoot.

My concern is, how will the rise in AIM events impact the SCTP? or how will moving the AIM state trap shoot away from the ATA state shoot impact the ATA state shoot?

 

Dogknott, I am aware that only those going to state need to join the governing body, was not aware that it applied to skeet and SC too.

I don't think the rise in AIM events will have much of an impact on SCTP events. Moving the AIM State shoot away from the ATA state shoot will not significantly impact the shoot. Obviously, the 16yd championship event will be smaller. I do believe several of those kids will still participate.

 

Brad, I believe the rifle/pistol events existed when the SCTP shoot was at Sparta.

 

I've been coaching SCTP for 12 years now, and have a couple comments on this subject. As far as record keeping, there is no comparison between what the SCTP does for our teams and what the ATA does. The ATA keeps individual records of scores. The SCTP helps us manage our teams, athletes, and competitions, as well as all the documentation that is needed to keep everyone safe, permissions, liabilities, and covered by insurance.

I struggled a little in the beginning having registered targets for the SCTP. However, I think it's a good thing for us here in Ohio. We pay half price youth ATA membership, and then pay the daily fees. But ATA shoots are a big part of our training for our teams. If we only competed in SCTP events, athletes would log very few targets annually other than practice. Our local gun club at Williams County supports the youth with half priced targets, and a place to shoot 10 ATA events per year, as well as participating in our fundraisers. We are also supported in a big way by the Ohio State Trapshooting Association, leading off the first day of the State Shoot with the SCTP Championships. The OSTA works hard in partnership with the MidwayUSA Foundation to provide matching support back to the state teams that essentially helps fund our shooting costs throughout the year. I'm certain that there are other state ATA associations that are helping support their youth also, and I think they know it's important for the future of the sport.

I would hate to have to coach a team today without the state and local support of ATA. On a national level that may be a different issue, and it probably depends on the state and locality your team is in.

 

Joe,

Thank you for this information from a coach.

It certainly has opened my eyes to how things are run and appreciated.

 

I give you guys Coaching a lot of credit, helping make Americas youth worth while again ... I give the kids (parents) a lot of credit for being involved in something worth while ... Merry Christmas and Happy New Year ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Joe tell the good folks on here for me how much money you all have received from the Midway Foundation if you would. Also about how many kids have you had in your program over the years. Brad

 

If this "was" about trapshooting the ATA would not be charging daily fees to the youth shooters.
If this "was" about trapshooting the ATA would not be charging anything for youth membership.

The 2.1 million dollars the ATA spent on a building that was given to the State of Illinois would have gone a long way to promoting youth trapshooting. jmho

 

Brad- The MidwayUSA Foundation program has been nothing less than phenomenal for our youth trapshooting program! With the 2-1 matching from the Potterfields for the 4th quarter of 2017, our club should have about $330,000 in their endowment account after only 7 years. MidwayUSA invests these funds, and sends us 5% of the balance annually to be used for youth trapshooting. Our earnings on the account have been averaging over 8%. We have developed methods of fundraising that can continue building the fund in the future, thanks to the guidance and flexibility of the MidwayUSA Foundation. We currently have about 25 youth shooters involved, but those numbers are growing. This program should fund youth trapshooting programs at our club for eternity!

 

Joe I'm with you, what the Potterfields' have done for shooting (not just trap) is the best I've seen in my 43 years of being an ATA member. I miss Williams's County's Youth steak dinner and shoot that they used to have. Will they have one next August or have they run there course? Brad

 

Brad,
The Williams County youth shooting steak dinner event is still going strong! I try to go every year with Scott. We usually shoot the trap program a few times plus manage to get in several rounds of small gauge skeet. We haven't asked you to go because we only have two of those pink skirts which are required on the skeet field!

 

September 29th this year Brad.

 

Good for the kids but why did the ATA refuse the Midway program for years. I read someone said the people at the top said it wasn't in their best interest.

 

Iowa Guy, It seems that if the SCTP has a good set up for record keeping, maybe they should look into starting an organization that could compete with the ATA. The ATA has lost it's position as leader of the sport of trap shooting. A competing organization that was for shooting and not follow the lead of the wayward ATA, could probably save the sport. This is something to consider, especially for the young shooters coming into the sport.
The new organization could encompass, trap, skeet, sporting clays all in one venue. I'm sure many of the shooters would welcome the endeavor wholeheartedly. Roger Coveleskie

 

Roger, I'll give you Ben Berka's phone number and you can call him and get it moving.

I'm still waiting for the number.

 

IOWA GUY, SEND ME A P.M. Roger C.

 

Can't help but wonder why the PITA has not opened and expanded its areas with all of the not so happy ATA members and former members ... There are a lot of shooters who would probably get back into registered shooting if it was not for all of the BS the ATA provides, besides the pay outs to the ED, EC, and some of the BOD ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I'm new here and pardon me, please if this has been mentioned before.
When my boys started on a youth team in 2007, they shot both SCTP and AIM events.
At that time, the SCTP only shot singles and the targets were registered. They were ATA/AIM members because of participating in ATA events.
Membership in ATA/AIM was not required by the SCTP.
The SCTP was started by a joint venture between the NSSF (Nationsl Sport Shooting Alliance) and the ATA. The actual year escapes me but they separated somewhere around '08- '09.
In '08, I believe, the Nationals for both SCTP and AIM were held at the WSRC on the Saturday/ Sunday between Prelim week and Grand week. They shot 200 singles Saturday and 200 singles on Sunday. One day was SCTP the other AIM.