POLL How much should the ATA Executive Director earn?

There has been talk earlier on threads about the income from the ATA for it's Executive Director? What would be an appropriate income?

 

If he were doing a good job $100,000. would be a good number. But we are not getting a good job from our present leader. Of course the EC does not seem to have the ability to judge his performance. They are focused on how the investments are performing. They should not be lumped together, each facet of a business must be graded on its own performance. Ever successful business should have a way judge the profit and loss on each and every item that they generate income from. How much problems, and time spent on each item. If either does not show a reasonable profit from the cost of sales it is removed from the company. Roger C.

 

Rumor has it they are coming out with a Talking Head Bobble head, the head only goes up and down ... Visualize that if you will ..? Like the Neil and Bob doll they came out with a few years ago ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Check the ATA contact list then tell me how much money is being wasted.

 

Huh . What is "the ATA contact list"? Where is that?

 

Go to the ATA web site click on contact scroll down the page.

 

How does that show the waste? No riddles Yankee.

 

Yankee, Who mentioned waste? I said they do not have a viable business plan. If they do and you know what it is please publish, as we would like to know what it contains, for improving the attendance at shoots. Also how they intend to increase the membership. Roger C.

 

There is nothing that anyone could do to satisfy some people. Oh I forgot, put the Grand in Ohio is your only answer.

 

frosty,
There is no place or room for the grand in Ohio, they have Cardinal Center so there is no need to up and move it again being as it is doing so well on its own right there where it is as you can tell by the attendance ... If you would pay attention and the $20 toward the HOF building you would know that, so PLEASE try to keep up ... If by chance Illinois defaults again there are numerous places the ATA can go but they (those clubs) don't want to stink the places up with those that follow (at the members expense ) so don't fret and relax ... If by chance you have an extra $20 send it to them, they can use it to pay of a building the State of Illinois owns that houses the ATA HOF ... Have a good day Bunky (frosty) and listen to what they tell you about everything moving in a fanazztaztic direction generating 20/30 million to the local and regional economy because it ain't ... Excuse me while I go and talk to my Toaster ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Frosty.........you can keep the ilk that is associated with the shoot that is held yearly in the gun hate state. We do not need the EC in Ohio. The Pull 2012 gang and Blagojevich's pals can stay in Illinois. We think we have the top facility in the world.

Get used to having Sparta, Illinois, the EC, and the corruption that goes with them all to yourself.

 

Return the Executive Committee and the ATA presidency to volunteer status as specified in the
By-Laws.

 

Huh? You would think Merlo would have that information in the topic if that is the case. I would like to see the quoted paragraph etc of that.

 

F. EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE AND ATA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
1. The Executive Committee consists of a representative from each of
the five (5) zones elected each year to the Executive Committee at
the annual meeting of the Board of Directors. One (1) member of the
Executive Committee is designated President and the other four (4) are
designated Vice-Presidents.
2. The Board of Directors has delegated direction of the affairs of the ATA
to the Executive Committee between meetings of the Board of Directors.
3. The Executive Committee employs an Executive Director to handle
the daily affairs of the ATA. The ATA Executive Director implements
the policies set forth by the Board of Directors and/or the Executive
Committee and follows their directions.
4. The main office and records of the ATA are located at 1105 East Broadway
PO Box 519 Sparta, IL 62286, Phone (618) 449-2224, Fax (866) 454-
5198, www.shootata.com.
6
G. CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS
The ATA is organized under the Corporate Laws of the State of Illinois and
has a Illinois Charter and Corporate By-laws formulated in accordance with
Illinois law, as a not-for-profit public charitable corporation. The ATA has
also been recognized and approved under Internal Revenue Code (IRC)
as a fully tax exempt 501(c)(3) charitable entity.

Gee, I quickly looked over the By-laws and saw nothing to indicate that the EC or BOD could not draw compensation for their services.

Did I miss something about Volunteering ??? Please correct me if I missed that part !!!

They should look into this, considering all the effort they put forth for the shooters.

They may be missing some of their just dues.

I'll side with them, as they have a lot to do in the course of their duties.

 

Can you find the origonal bylaws? They could have been changed when moving to ill. or maybe even prior to the move. How does the ATA qualify as a charitable organization?
Brads friend, quit giving them tips on how to feed. Roger C.

 

Brads Friend,
You may want to take another look. Try Article V, Section 8.

Come on, Roger quit stirring the pot. You know very well that the Articles of Incorporation are posted on the ATA web site and that the ATA has operated as a 501(c)(3) since 11/30/2004.

 

I would like to see the original by-laws. Someone please post them. (pre Illinois)

 

I have a 1993 articles of incorporation booklet and article 5 section 8 is word for word the same.

 

I believe History Buff previously posted the initial bylaws which were adopted in 1924 but I don't recall the date of his post.

 

Thanks 10guns and Joe...

I stand corrected. Like I had said, I quickly scanned over he By-laws and found what I posted.

Well, I guess one could call their attendance at shoots a necessary expense.

Sorry Roger for giving these guys help...I believe they may need some once in a while....LOL

 

10guns, Asking how they qualify as a charitable corp. is not stirring the pot. I would like to know how much of their income is donated to any charitable organizations. That also should show up on their statements. I have never noticed the entry, have you?
There must be rules to follow and laws for the charitable actions. I do not think a small donation would qualify as being a charitable entity. Roger C.

 

Roger,
The ATA is a not for profit corporation and qualifies as a 501(c)(3) entity which is organized and operated exclusively for the purposes of fostering National or International amateur sports competition. Said competition being more specifically described in its Articles of Incorporation, line item 6 (a-e) and its annual IRS Form 990, Part III, 1 (mission statement). As such I believe its revenue is required to go solely to the governance, operation and promotion of its program services and policies. I am not a CPA and admittedly do not know all the requirements, limitations and/or restrictions imposed on such entities as the ATA to retain their 501(c)(3) election. However, to the best of my knowledge there is no requirement to donate any portion of annual revenue(s) to charitable organizations outside of their program services. I'm certain that there are other forum members who have far greater knowledge than I on this matter and I welcome any clarification and or correction(s).

 

10guns, You do not have to be a charitable organization to be a 501C3 corp. I would still like to know how the ATA qualifies as such. This is not stirring the pot. It is asking for information that should be know to the members. Are we not the back bone of the ATA? Roger C.

 

Roger,
I agree. The more transparency and information provided to the membership the better. However, I'm confused as to why you feel the ATA is a charitable organization?

 

We give a $17,000 gun to a new head of corruption every year. There was the charitable contribution the Executive Committee gave to their pals in the Pull 2012 scandal. How about the mega charity given to the state of Illinois when we bought a multimillion dollar building.

Ooops. Forgot about the Ex Director making close to $200K. Charitable. Damn right the ATA is charitable.

 

10guns, Read the post by Brad's friend. the one after your post regarding Merlo. Section G. Roger C.

 

I don't quite know what is meant by "As a Not-For-Profit PUBLIC charitable corporation" exactly means.

Anyone ?

 

It means they are supposed to be a real charity. They do not abide by their own bylaws, what makes any one think they would abide by the rules of a charitable organization? They may be perfectly legal. I only ask a question that I would like an answer for.
One group I was a part of was accumulating money to purchase land, they were told to be careful as the IRS could confiscate the money as they were a non profit corp. and were not supposed to have that money. I do not know if this is true or not about the rule of no accumulation of revenue. Roger C.

 

Roger,
I understand what you are saying. I believe the majority of people would say that a charitable organization or "charity" is one whose primary objectives are philanthropy and social well being such as: The American Red Cross, Wounded Warriors Project or the American Cancer Society. Certainly one would have difficulty equating the ATA as a similar organization to any of these. However, in the legal sense the definition of charitable organization and "charitable purposes" becomes quite varied. The legal definition of a "Qualified Charitable Organization" states in part that it must be operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary or educational purposes or for the prevention of cruelty to animals or children or the development of amateur sports. Hence, as stipulated in the ATA Articles of Incorporation (6a-e), the ATA meets the definition of a charitable organization for purposes of Federal and apparently State statute. Many may not agree but unfortunately like it or not that's the law. Again what restrictions, limitations and regulations are imposed upon the ATA to retain its status as a charitable organization is beyond my pay grade.

With regard to the property issue you alluded to, it is my understanding that all revenue must be exclusively allocated to the governance, promotion and maintenance of program/policy services. If in fact you were soliciting funds in the name of the ATA for property to be purchased and used by an unrelated third party then I believe you would have been in violation which could have created an issue with both the State of IL and the IRS.

 

The ATA at one time had shooters pay a fee (Relocation Fund (?) ) for the ATA to buy property and relocate the Association to that site as I recall, the New Home grounds ... The money that was collected ended up being used to purchase trap machines so the State of Illinois could host what used to be the grand American Championships, that has since then turned into nothing more than a grand in name only ... I believe it was questioned at the time but not pursued in any way from a legal standpoint, technically it was misleading the membership and having them feel as though the ATA was searching for and going to purchase land so it got accepted as such ... I do not remember how much it was or for how long it got collected but obviously there was a substancial (sp ?) amount of money collected and in essence was never really accounted for other than by speculation ... The ATA is a Cash Cow for the ED, EC, and many of the BOD, questions about where the money goes is never talked about or any answers given to the members or there would probably be hell to pay ... The amount of money the Talking Head gets paid is nothing short of ridiculous for what he does which adds up to nothing ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The current executive director is also the tournament director so he gets paid for both because he is very qualified to be the tournament director. In the past the executive director hired someone else to be the tournament director.

 

It is not all that difficult to be the tournament director for the Grand, with all the outside help that is hired it is mainly a paper position ask some of the people that have done it, it is what you make it.

 

10guns,

Your last paragraph says a lot.

Only problem WAS, there was very little, if any, transparency when it came to the solicitations of funds for the THOF building.

Not very many people that I know of were told that the Building was going to BELONG to the State of Illinois.

I wonder just how many of the EC knew this when they approved the $250,000.00 donation ?

Only information I remember hearing was that the building would sit on Leased Land from the State, not the fact it would be OWNED by the STATE.

But, this still would not explain how the ATA legal council did not explore all this information before letting them make that donation.

Just strange to me, but I am by no means an expert...Just a former ATA member who got disgusted with the way the organization leaders let me down.

 

I would do it for a credit card for food allownance. and Gasoline usage.

Gary Bryant....................................Dr.longshot

 

Brads Friend,
I agree. Given today's technology and with the advancements in social media there should be a far greater transparency provided by the ATA leadership. This failing becomes further compounded in the absence of oversight by the BOD which affords the EC unilateral decision making authority on virtually any and all issues. When and if information is disseminated to the general membership it typically comes many months later and in bits and pieces with limited clarity.

Several years ago Robert Glatz submitted a letter to the EC recommending various organization changes. One of which and in my opinion the most important was to change the governing structure of the ATA. Mr. Glatz believed that the existing lock-step parade of VP's to President depressed any incentive for change and/or progress and often attracted less qualified individuals who were more interested in the prize at the end of the line than the creation of business plans and goals for the further advancement of the ATA.

This isn't rocket science and could be accomplished through the existing by-laws however it would require a far greater proactive BOD which may occur the next time you see a pig fly by!!

 

10guns,

The Robert Glatz letter, and the almost immediate removal of Doc Rively as the ED, began to open my eyes to things, and I began asking questions.

I was an ordinary Annual Member, nobody special, but I took an interest in MY Organization, and how it was being run.

I was discovering things and asking questions, and at some point received a note that I cannot find today in my records, that stated something like this:

Members will be notified of information on a "Need To Know Basis".

And I decided then and there, Transparency was out the window.

And the more I look into the past happenings, the more I realize I was right in my assumptions.

Unfortunate, as I met one hell of a lot of reputable folks while shooting, who I respect fully, and for that I am very thankful for.

 

Brads Friend,
There is little doubt that the Glatz/Rively incident created quite a firestorm within the ATA, especially regarding the "benefits/compensation" attributed to the EC. Also with it coming shortly after the ever popular relocation of the home grounds to Sparta (LMAO) it only further exacerbated an already contentious situation between the general membership and ATA leadership. Many like yourself became fed up with being spoon fed the "need to know" BS and chose to leave the organization. However, in my opinion what has become lost in this matter is that the issues in question raised by Mr. Glatz were not new. In fact Mr. Glatz stated that he did not believe any individuals to be dishonest but merely following a long established precedent. I am a Life Member and have been around the trapshooting game for close to 50 years. I have seen abuses, inequities and just plain outright corruption (IMO) at all levels of the organization. Some of the things that went on "back in the day" would make the recent ATA leadership look like a bunch of choir boys. Don't misunderstand me, I am not an advocate for the current governance, policies and direction of the ATA. I can give you a laundry list of problems, issues and changes which I would like to see the ATA leadership address. However, I still enjoy shooting. And although my AA/27 days are far behind me I am still having fun albeit all my bitching & moaning.Trapshooting has given me far more through the experiences over the years with family, friends and travels around the country than I have ever invested in it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but for me the gloom and doom, sky is falling bandwagon gets a little old.

Remember "change" starts at the bottom not the top. When the general membership wants to set its apathy aside, get involved and elect proactive delegates perhaps we might start to see some constructive changes. I will say this, that the two newest VP's, Mr. Shaw and Mr. Hayes, although I do not know either personally, are known to be highly respected and very reputable individuals. It will be interesting to see if they can bring about any productive actions or if they will be dragged down in the quagmire of the "Good Old Boys Club".

 

BS - - - The change came from the top down. The destruction and corruption came from the crooks at the top. I only pray the crooks stay in Illinois. The sport doesn't need the ATA.

10Guns - you want an example of no change, same crooks doing the same thing. Tell me when the latest minutes were published. Tell me why the Pull 2012 minutes have not been corrected. Why no investigation yet?

 

Smithy,
As I stated to Brads Friend, if it is your opinion that the ATA leadership is so inherently corrupt that in good conscious you can no longer retain your membership in support of the organization so be it. Although I do not agree with you I can respect your decision.

I am not certain as to what change you are referring to that came from the "top down". My previous post that "change starts at the bottom" refers to institutional change(s) which to the best of my knowledge still require a majority vote of the BOD.

The last minutes of record are from the March 2017 EC Meeting/Special Teleconference which were approved for publishing at the August 2017 EC Meeting. Apparently it is the policy of the ATA, in accordance with Robert's Rules of Order that the minutes will not be published until reviewed and approved at the subsequent meeting(s) of the EC and BOD. This policy where the membership has to wait 3-4 months or in the case of the Annual BOD Meeting a year to view the minutes is totally absurd (IMO). Many organizations will publish an unofficial copy of the minutes for viewing by the membership/shareholders as soon as possible after the meeting. In the name of transparency I believe that all parties would be better served if the ATA were to adopt a similar policy.

With regard to the "Pull 2012" minutes issue, I have no idea why the minutes have not been corrected. With the exception of accuracy for the purposes of historical record I find it to be of little if any significance. Although the document (minutes) would be reviewed through any investigative process, it basically is a self-serving document. Was it a scriveners error or was it a willful misrepresentation? I suppose if one were looking to establish some sort of conspiracy and/or collusion it might hold some relevance. However, The Articles of Organization, LLC Operating Agreement and a basic Attorney Title search for the property in question would hold substantially far more relevance in the determination of any malfeasance.

It is my understanding that the Office of AG/IL did complete an investigation into the "Pull 2012/2012 Pull LLC" matter and failed to find and evidence of malfeasance. With regard to an alleged complaint filed with the IRS, I can assure you the only file that Exempt Organizations would open on this matter would be the circular file. Does this mean that the party and/or parties affiliated with 2012 Pull LLC have clean hands, of course not. Their action(s) were blatantly unethical and I believe in violation the ATA by-laws. The fact that this matter was swept under the rug showed the incompetence of the BOD and is an embarrassment to the ATA. In my opinion the former officer involved at the very least should have had his life membership revoked and additionally been suspended from the ATA for life. Any member of the BOD or EC and/or committee member with knowledge of the transaction and who willfully turned a blind eye and/or aided and abetted said transaction should have been terminated from their position(s) and held subject to further sanctions. I believe it was History Buff who said that there remain a lot of unanswered questions in this matter. I doubt those questions will ever be answered.

 

Great quotes!

Did Gipson get a raise for the new year?