SHOULD HAVE THE ATA SHELL SPECIFICATIONS BEEN CHANGED?

CCfan: 2004 Ohio State Shoot ROBERT DEAN HANDICAP Open Champion 27 yards I am looking at the Trophy, a very Large Silver Double Handle 10 inch high 9 inch in Diameter Steif Trophy Jeesh Have back up What I say, I also carried very good Singles and Handicap Averages, look them up on shooter information center. 98% single avg one year and 92+% Hdcp average one year from the 27.

 

I also hold the Ky. Colonel Chmpnshp 1970 I believe, an elite group, it was in all the Major Papers, No misses perfect score.

 

The gun I was shooting was a SILVER SEITZ W/2.5 FIXED RIB/RELEASE TRIGGER

 

More info for the doubting, 3 years 90%+ Hdcp avg, 9 years of 97-98% singles avg just look it up. Highest averages were with a Silver Seitz. Won Grudge Match w/Silver Seitz. I need to get another one I guess.

 

2004 those were 2 hole targets you aren't going to count those are you.

 

you shot them too didn't you OSTA set harder targets at Vandalia, why couldn't you break them

 

I need my DLS to English dictionary. LOL

 

Hmm... interesting. You base that on?

The following is from OCT 24th, 2013. Here is what I have said, "

and "It just is not 3 or 3.0 it is >3 and <3 1/4." As I believe the WIN representative acknowledged as 3.2.

Again, 3dr when implemented in the ATA rule book, meant as it was and is. A 1200fps average velocity load, meaning a load with a mean or average velocity of 1200fps is named, nomen, nominal 3dr. Winchester was not misrepresenting loads, IMO, no matter what people are saying.

AZCOTRAP said, "If the manufactuers made shells with boxes marked 3 dram loads with an average velocity of 1110 feet per second, that is a 3 dram load, according to SAAMI." Sorry my friend, they would not, and it (a 1110fps ave vel load) is not. Nice try though. Is the earth flat? A shell with the components of a 1200fps average velocity load that had a shell that was 1110fps (unlikely), could be considered part of a 3dr load. A load (set of components) that averaged 1110fps would not be labeled or known as a 3dr load, more like 2.5, well 1100 is 2.51 (per Federal) and 1120 is 2 5/8 (per Lyman), so call it a 2.57 Dr Eq load, as it is. As there is no DR EQ rating for a 1110fps load in SAAMI, it should not be called anything other than a 1110fps load. Though as it appears with Winchester, they would round, and I guess the nearest is 2 3/4 as it is the lowest DR eq rating in SAAMI for a 1 1/8oz load. You see..., that is my problem I guess, I think you will see at some point, but you won't, and that is to bad, for you and the game. We went from a 3dr game to a 3.5 dr game (well 3 7/16 dr by lyman) when the rule was changed. No problem for me, but it appears it has hurt the game. Giving an edge to the proficient, gives no incentive to participate at a level (numbers participating) to take monetary chances like once was. Your responses are indicative of someone who may have been involved in the process, and like others, you're great defender of false understanding.

I do not think you know what you are asking. Are you asking what other technical standards and specifications are followed? Is that your question? A Load is +- something, SAAMI allows +-90fps. There are many testing facilities. You could ask them if the abide by SAAMI procedures, I imagine they would. If they do not, it is not worth sending your shells to them. If you are asking for specification guidance. I know of SAAMI and C.I.P.

Who, who has been DQ'd? Definitely not a contestant that used reloads, not per the ATA rule anyway, unless it was shot size or weight, but were talking speed here.

A complainer (if it is me your talking about) of the speed rule, nope, heck the kid loves it after the testing we did. It isn't right, but maybe that is how it was meant to be, virtually nothing. About the only shells affected are factory, at almost 3.5 dr eq., as indicated, by both Win, in the statement and Rem as noted, "exceeds ATA velocity limit" or some such thing on their 1300fps boxes. As the only verifiable means of testing the load, is by testing the speed, by rule, not to exceed the limits of a 1290fps load. Any reasonable person would conclude the reasonable standards of SAAMI would apply here, 1290+ 90fps. If they don't, well...,.

Shoot well

John

 

John,

They labeled boxes 1250FPS and 3DE at the same time. I think we both agree on that. SO... factories were selling 1250fps NMV shells labeled as 3DE, seems indisputable. You explained repeatedly why they did that, but "why" has no bearing here. They did it, period. I'm just pointing out it is a fact. I also believe it is extremely likely other manufacturers were doing the same thing.

I don't think Winchester was misrepresenting anything, you are the one that said 1250fps NMV was not a 3DE load even if labeled as such.

By the way, they are not talking about you in the DQ references.

 

jhunts

I think you have a comprehension problem, and I am not going to argue with someone who does not know what they are talking about.

You talk about the definition of +\- not being what is is, then turn around and explain it correctly in another post.


My question to what other testing labs followed by the manufactuers, was to Dr. Longshot's statement. Are you LongShot going by another name, thinking that inane statements made by more than one person gives those statements more value?

 

And a lot of fun to shoot.

 

I agree, surmised why it was done 18 mos. ago and what I surmised is what WIN said. Though WIN also said it was not a 3dram load, it was 3.2.... The direct replacement of the old rule would have been to state a 1200fps load rule vice a 1290fps load rule. Of course most do not even know what the new rule says, with meaning.

If you bought a 3lb labeled bag of what ever and only 2.8 lbs were ever in it, don't you think it would be misleading. In this case, not many shells of a 1250fps load will ever be 1200fps, which is 3dr eq.

AZCOTRAP,
I must admit, I did not gather your question was in response to a question from another as, you wrote it standing alone without direction of who you were responding to.

Now, to get on with the discussion, as it appears you, and maybe many others, though I think less, are still confused. Once a belief has entered and anchored in the mind, it takes a long time to break from it. Just like the people who believe the earth is flat.

The shotshell, called or in name 3dr. The specification calls for a mean of 1200fps. That's it, so like the definition within the SAAMI glossary, 3dr = 1200fps. Nothing else to it, it is.

Now, what is the product, the shotshell. Not the LOT of shotshells, not the box of shotshells, just one shotshell. This (3dr load) shotshell is based on the load (combination of components) that have been developed using sampling methods spelled out, to have a mean when sampled in quantity of or very near 1200fps.

Again though, the product is each shotshell. The specification is, that each shotshell shall, or with reasonable assurance in subsequent testing, be within 1200fps +-90fps. Not, that a LOT or a Box can average +-90fps of the mean.

How can you determine without measuring, as measuring each of the product (shotshell) would destroy the product, that the product (shotshell in this case) will not exceed 1290fps. Statistics, one, would sample the product, to a point, you can make statistical probabilities as to the validity of the product to maintain each within the specifications. Now in SAAMI's case it calls for you (manufacturer) to sample quantities of the product, a minimum of 50 times. The table gives statistical numbers (calculable) based on number in each sample, whether it was 2 shells 50 times, or 5 or 10 or up to a sample size of 25 shells, to be repeated 50 times. This allows the manufacturer to set reject points to assure the consumer that (depending on the percentage used) to a degree the product will never exceed the specification, possible to a degree of certainty of up to 99.73%, which as about a certain as it gets, statistically.


It was understood by many, that any individual shotshell that exceeded 1290fps be considered illegal. If the wording was correct at the time, the only shotshell to meet the required stipulation is the 1200fps shotshell, which if you did not know, coincides with the 3dr eq load, the old rule. Though, I think now, people realize that is not what the rule says, and that is not what the manufacturers take it to mean.

So here AZCOTRAP, I hope your fanciful belief in a 3dram load averaging the limit of a specification, ends. As if it did average the limit of the spec, approximately 50% of the shells would be out of spec. Can you imagine, getting a expensive load of whatever, lets say bolts, and 50% of them did not fit in the holes designed for them to go through, I think even AZCOTRAP would be upset, maybe not.

I agree, with today's rule. I agree. A 1290fps load is legal, 1290+90fps. The point is as Gary has trying to point out for a while, a 1290fps load is not a 3dr (equivalent to the old rule) load. The game went from a 3dr game to a 3.5ish dram game.

Whether, the writers of the new rule, misunderstood what they did or did it with intent, today's rule does not = the old rule.

For those that can effectively shoot them. More contestants can effectively shoot 1200fps loads, as I have said in the past, why not allow more competitors to compete with the same maximum. This one change in and of itself will help in the equalization of the Handicap game.

Shoot well.

John

 

John
What information is that based on?
The top shooters I watch seem very effective with the faster shells.

When I talk to the top sporting clays guys in my area they all favor faster loads as well.
Typically faster then the trap loads.

 

Are there people who won't shoot the faster loads (1 1/8oz), because of recoil, yes.

So, common sense is all the information needed.

The other stuff is for another thread. Maybe titled, "why do top sporting clays guys (people) prefer faster loads". I think you know already though.

Shoot well.

John

 

No confusion on my part. SAAMI says a 3 Dram eq. of black powder is 1200 feet per second, +/-90fps.

BUT: we don't use black powder anymore and the shell manufactuers make loads that exceed 1200 fps in specific brands.

ATA, in order to get with the program simply said no shell shall exceed 1290 fps. Remember, that 1290 fps speed limit existed when we used black powder, so ATA did not really change anything did it? This whole issue is nonsense as we no longer use black powder and have not for over 100 years now.

Use of the 3 dram reference is useless and obsolete as shell manufactuers have all but dropped the dram size reference and in lieu thereof simply print shell speed on the boxes. ATA got with the program and also dropped the dram reference, but used the top speed of 1290 in reference to the speed limit set for a 3 dram load of black powder.

The ATA could very easily reset the speed limit to 1200 fps, but I doubt Winchester, Remington and Federal would stop the production of shells over 1200 fps and call them target shells. As Neil's past tests from the 70's showed, we were using 1255 fps shells then, so the presedence was set long ago.

Even if factory shells were required not to exceed 1200 fps to be purchased at the Grand, and outlawed at ATA events, what would prevent a person from scratching off the shell markings of Super Handicap AA's and reboxing them in 1200 fps boxes?

I guess if we were still using black powder, this whole discussion would not be had. Did I mention we do not use black powder anymore?

 

AZCOTRAP,

You see, I think, well I guess not, I proved you cannot have a rule based on FPS, within a shotshell game. What is it based on, let's just assume SAAMI. Someone using SAAMI guidelines cannot guarantee the validity of the test of a single shell. It will specifically say a number, but that number itself could be in error (just by the error introduced by the equipment) and probably is when tested or validated to 1fps. Every testing station in the country could or would have a slightly different reading of the same shell. We all know you can only test 1 shell, once. So to have a rule when there is an inherent error with the testing method seem a little, well, illogical.

If you are using Neil's data, don't. Well you can, but as he used his methods of testing and not SAAMI's methods of testing whether his data is accurate or not, is strongly debatable.

If ATA were to change the current rule to a 1200fps load, I have no idea what the manufacturers would do, with 1235/1250fps loads. If the line continued to make money, from Handicap leagues or is SC shooters using them, I imagine the lines would continue to run. If the product did not produce a positive return, it would be dropped.

AZCOTRAP said, "ATA, in order to get with the program simply said no shell shall exceed 1290 fps." and "ATA got with the program and also dropped the dram reference, but used the top speed of 1290 in reference to the speed limit set for a 3 dram load of black powder." No they did not. The rule is not a top speed rule, it is the speed of a LOAD rule. This has been covered. What was conveyed, through willful negligence, IMO, to appease the masses, is not what the rule says, as I have explained in earlier posts.

AZCOTRAP said, "Even if factory shells were required not to exceed 1200 fps to be purchased at the Grand, and outlawed at ATA events, what would prevent a person from scratching off the shell markings of Super Handicap AA's and reboxing them in 1200 fps boxes?" Well AZCPTRAP who would do that, this is a game of honor, right. Then there is, they can do that now. Heck as some people have posted they find, new SC Nitro hulls and packaging in the trash, without even scratching off the evidence. Anyway if your going to cheat it doesn't matter what the rule says, you'll find a way. With an adequate rule though, cheaters can be caught.

If Dr Eq. was obsolete, it would not be in a specifications guide. It is relevant to loads that were once produced with black powder and now smokeless, for a long time. Hence the guide to equivalence was noted, as a velocity.

There is, I suppose, the fact you can find or come up with many reasons not to change the rule. There is couple that stands out though to change it, the conversion from the 3dram load rule to a fps rule was not correct, in wording or understanding and The belief the game of handicap should be about leveling the playing field, the more people using the same max load the better. I would imagine all shooting the 1235fps+ shells can effectively shoot the 1200fps shells as well. So why would anyone not want to make the perception of the handicap game as fair as possible, within the context of a handicap system.

Not that it matters.

Shoot well.

John

 

Your right, it does not matter. The 3 dram eq was used as a standard, to help people in the day equate but was that FF, FFF or FFFF powder? There can be a variance with those 3 granulations.

So what I am saying since we do not need the 3 dram reference any more, it is illrevelant as to what was, but very important to what is (now). The ATA said, 1290 is the max for a 1-1/8 oz load. There is no probition to a minium speed, so if you can break targets with. 900fps load, more power to you.

We have actually a more clear understanding with the 1290 limit what we can use and what we cannot as opposed to a 3 dram load ( 1200fps +/- ).

 

Too bad for our sport we didn't have the numbers of people reminding us, it's the rule, live with it or lump it a few decades back! Rule violations all across the country to include our own ATA officials going directly against their own set of rules and setting illegal targets. Clear as mud yet huh? Who said cheaters never win?

HAP

 

Wouldn't changing the shells be the equivalent of adding concrete?

 

Simple answer, yes, but so does increasing the speed of the target.

 

Here's what's wrong with your position: there IS no conclusive proof that a 1200fps load is less effective than a 1290fps load on clays.
Same with 7 1/2's vs. 8's. Both are a matter of individual pellet energy (and pattern density, of course), and the debate rages on. Why does it rage on? ....because there is no definitive answer.
It's been amply demonstrated that the increased MV will not MAKE you actually HIT more targets than you would with the 1200fps loads.

To directly answer the question: that would be the goofy person who knows that the slower load produces less recoil in his gun, allowing him to shoot more effectively, especially after going a few rounds.

 

This thread is one of the most educational threads on the sport. The death of trapshooting. A must read for our uneducated BOD.

 

Has there ever been a velocity check at a registered shoot? If there were to be a check is there a standard set for the chronograph? Rules only really matter when properly and continually enforced. The latter is simply my personal opinion.. Larry

 

Larry, The exaulted leaders of our sport will not even enforce the rules on target flights. Do you really think they would bother to check shells. MANY CLUBS HAVE NO BENCH MARKS FOR A HEIGHT POLE TO SET TARGETS WITH, AND THE ATA'S B.O.D. AND EC, SHOOT AT MANY OF THEM REGULARLY. Does this surprise you? THE ONLY THINK THEY WANT TO CONTROL IS THE MONEY AND THE HELL WITH THE GAME, THAT SEEMS TO BE THEIR COLLECTIVE ATTITUDE. You be the judge. I wonder if they care about the decline in attendance at registered shoots all over this country, and any place registered targets are placed in the air. Just maybe it is due to the mismanagement of the sport. Roger C.

 

I have been shooting ATA targets since 1983 and have NEVER seen anyone test shells! If someone did ask a club to test loads how would they do it? Not many clubs have cronos to do testing. Or would the ATA be responsible for that?

 

It does make me wonder Roger, our little club (two traps) throws pitch targets, we have surveyed/laser aimed points for angles and a special mount for the height pole and set speed with a radar gun. I even carry my chrono in case anyone wants to check their load...... I am beginning to believe a shooter has a better chance at legal targets and ammo at the smaller less "important" shoots like ours....... Larry

 

Larry, I agree 100% with you. The spring Grand is held in Tucson, and they have no bench marks on their fields. Mr. Wagner threatened to shut the Autumn Grand down because the doubles were a little bit to wide for one of the elite shooters. He also knows that there are no bench marks. As long as we keep the present group in control, we will see a decline in our sport, they are very self centered. Maybe more interested in real estate deals, free guns, and travel expenses, than seeing to the well being of the sport. Roger C.

 

Has anyone in this discussion ever tested a factory shell over 1290 fps? If the answer is no, where do we go from here? Roger C.

 

I always use a factory shell to "calibrate" my machine...... if the box says X then that becomes my standard as per the box. Two years ago I used two shells from a box of Nitro27's..... first shot 1280, second shot 1295. Then shot 3 more, all indicated over 1270. I did not have a second machine to check speeds..... my reloads that were supposed to be 1190 (as per load data) ranged from 1180 to 1220 (as per load data). I assumed I had a box of Nitro27 loaded to sporting clays specs.... its never happened again with Remington or Federal Gold Medal....... I suspect that unless there is a factory screwup somewhere factory ammo will be close to advertised fps...... I do know though that unless there is a really close inspection I can load Federal GM using Federal primers that VISUALLY appear like factory products. If one were really after speed I suppose they could be juiced up and slipped in........ Larry

 

There was a time when 3 dram (1200 fps) was the ATA accepted standard + or - 5% ... When I shoot, I shoot Nitro 27's all new and factory if they are not to the standard I could care less, no one had ever challenged them or tested them including me ... I had a bunch of Federal Handicap shells, guessing I would say they were "HOT" because they kicked the livin chit out of me and gave me a head ache ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bill, Those federal shell proved you are a big sissy. Are you still big, have not seen you in a while. Roger C.

 

6'5" 275, lost about 40 pounds ... Was down to 240, everyone said I look a lot taller when that thin .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

We had our our second ATA registered shoot Saturday, our club has 2 registered shoots per year. Pitch targets, set for proper height with T bar and speed with our radar gun. 20 shooters ranging in age from 14 to 81. Nitro27 and Federal 1200fps used by 4 or 5 shooters, Fed value packs and value packs from WW by 4 or 5 more and the rest were reloads of some sort.. High gun shot reloads in STS hulls. No one complained or questioned ammunition choices. Folks just shot.
14 year old shot her first 25....... She did just great and was the center of attention. Seems tiny hidden shoots like this are perhaps the good part of the game.... folks gathering to shoot, enjoy a raffle and a club sponsored dinner on Saturday followed by a 50/50/60 on Sunday.....30 shooters Sunday. Shooters ranging in age from 12 to 83. Sunshine and no wind.... no complaints, no disputes, just another great day at the range. I had to miss the Sunday shoot, just my luck to be elk hunting....... Larry

 

Larry,
Those type of shoots is what made the ATA, at one time and to this day without the grass roots clubs the ATA would of been nothing ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

This is what is in the rule book -
Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with 49 maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge. In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.

 

Did someone ask about targets and the history? Bump for the question.

 

Ever see anyone check shellls at a registered match? I have never heard anyone even request a test.........Change for changes sake is no change at all. Is 3DE preferable? Or is it just the "old way to do it"? Something "unequal"? Perhaps the woke term "inequity" fits in here somewhere.
Change the rule to whatever, make it mandatory for club to provide all with approved ammo.......
How many angels on the head of a pin????????????? Larry

 

1 1/4 oz. #6 shot might need checking. The rest is un-checkable.

 

Bump from the archives. Someone mentioned ammo velocity. Great info here.

 

I feel the ATA should mandate a maximum of 1oz of shot not to exceed a speed of 1300fps.

 

Where would trapshooting be if the hottest ammo was a red Winchester?

 

Fewer big scores from the 27.

 

You think the 3 dram 1 1/8 ounce AA’s don’t break them from back there? Or a 2 3/4 dram one for that matter?

 

The only way to equalize handicap, is to have a champion in each yardage group. Do not mess with the shells. add an other yardage group passed the 27 yrd line.
That way you will catch the sand baggers and set the target to the old rule settings. Roger C.
P.S. each yardage group should shoot for their own prize money.

 

in military matches (leg matches), ammo is issued at the line. all the same. if anyone is caught on the line with spare ammo, you are ejected from the match.
the line has amnesty cans at each entry to the line.
hey...might make for a good bidding war for big ammo makers to win the contract?
might make them want to make better ammo, as not to be embarrassed and lose the next bid to supply ammo.