Martin ATA HOF - If all members paid $20.....EC Exec meeting.

As per the ATA minutes Bill Martin gave the ATA some advice:

Mr. Martin told the executive committee that money needed to be raised to pay of the Hall of Fame building. If all members of the ATA paid twenty dollars apiece towards the debt, he stated that the debt would be paid in full.
------------------------------------------------------

My answer to Martin....why would anyone pay for a building that would be owned by Illinois? How often does he buy building for government entities?

 

And the ATA is NOT the Trapshooting Hall of Fame to begin with.

Two different organizations.

 

Do not dice Bill for making an honest statement. He is the most generous man I have ever known. Thank you Bill for every club you have helped. Roger Coveleskie

 

I think Mr. Bill Martins suggestion is a little late being as a majority of the membership at the time advised the ATA they would not attend (compare attendance records to verify) if the relocation was to be in Illinois ( Sparta) , so asking the membership to kick in additional $20 to pay off the HOF (debt) that is also located in and owned by the State of Illinois would probably meet with the same fate ... The HOF already got $250,000 of the members money as donated by the brass hats of the ATA without taking anything into consideration of how the membership felt about it ... Bill Martin (the Martin Family ) are extremely generous and have helped and or assisted clubs along the way in many ways ... Its not what was done but the way it was done that turned the membership against it ... Location, Location, Location rule number one when starting a business ... Personally, I would burn the $20 dollar bill before I gave it to them ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT you should burn your ATA member card! I would be glad to give $20 for the HOF as I think most members would.

 

Then why haven't you done it? Send them your $20. Ask dad for some change.

If the rest of the membership wanted to build a 2 million dollar horse barn owned by the gun hate state no one would be begging for money.

But I will help out. Here goes....
____________

My shout out to the shooting population:

Hey fellas. Help the state of Illinois out. They want you to pay for a building they own. There you go. Problem solved. Should be paid by Monday.

 

While you are writing the check to cover WPT's $20 how about covering mine too?
Now all you and the rest of the kook-aid drinkers have to do is figure out how to get more people to show up at that place in Il. Hey, wait a second, I just thought of a way to save you $40.
CHARGE admission to get into the place. How much are they short? With all shooters that go to the grand it shouldn't take too long to pay off the bill. With that LARGE number of people shooting the GAH this year it would only cost each one of them what, a lousy $100 each? That doesn't seem so bad does it?

Since you took the time to post this little fishing trip I have a question for ya?

Why didn't you respond to the trolley post that HB put up? Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

I didn't start this post. And I do give to the HOF. Bet you don't do anything to help. But your caretakers of the sport?! What is there to respond to on trolley post? HB had the numbers I have the count of what's really there. What more you want? Try to do something possitive for our sport!

 

On the right track, so just put a surcharge on each event at the grand like they did in Vandalia for the move.

Wouldn't take only a few years to get the place paid for at say 2 dollars charge per shooter per event.

That way the ones who go and visit can pay for the state owned building as they visit the Grand each year until it's paid off.

Those not visiting the THOF can or don't have to contribute to Illinois.

 

T Shot, maybe you don't give enough so its up to you to pay like the rest of us did over many years for all of the nonsense the ATA and HOF came up with to kick in ... The ATA gave the HOF $250,000 in the name of the members which I happen to be one (Life Member) so technically I already gave ... The folks in Sparta should take up a collection, probably raise all of $1.92 combined from everyone who benefits most of the HOF ... If they made those who attend the grand pay an extra $20, it would take a little over 15 years to pay off the debt ... This year 2003 people could of happily kicked in another $20 for shooting the grand American Handicap, last year 1745, pitiful at best ... Looks like you are not doing your part from where I am sitting ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Wpt maybe I could do more. And I will. I have been a life member since 1985 so I have all along to and maybe more than you. So like the rest of us I paid for it. The HOF is a great place to visit and its in the right place! I know you wanted it at the CC. But it's not so go see it and support it! We are all caretakers of the sport.

 

T Shot, not that it matters but I have been a lifer since 1975, second registered shoot I attended ... I have seen the HOF when it was in Vandalia every time I went there, total 11 times ( shot 9 times, just visit on two occasions, but went to see friends ) ... The HOF belongs where the most (majority) members, shooters could benefit by it, where ever that might be it sure as hell isn't Illinois ... If you want a sure bet, you can bet the farm I will never shoot a target or visit the HOF as long as any part of it is in Sparta, Ill or any place else in Illinois for that matter ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Not to brag but I've been to the HOF over 25 times. In Vandaila and Sparta. It belongs where it is! I hope someday you will get over your hate of Sparta and the ATA and enjoy our sport. The one you say your a caretaker of!

 

Its silly for you to assume that I hate Sparta, and or the ATA for that matter ... I have enjoyed the sport and cherish each and everyone of the friends I have made over the years while involved with trap shooting ... I never said I was a caretaker of or for the ATA, if you are going to say something or make any accusations make sure its accurate so you don't look like you don't know what you are talking about, before doing so ... I probably would of went to the grand more often when it was in Vandalia but I did have a life outside of trapshooting, job's, family , coaching kids teams, building hot rods etc ... The ATA has become a Cash Cow for many, I do not condone that and got tired of all the volunteers who get paid and their expenses covered for being a volunteer but to hear them tell it they pay as they go like everyone else ... The ATA made its bed, as did the HOF now they have to pay for it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Spoken like the true child you are that knows so little about the sport or the thread. The folks in OH don't want the EC or the thing you think is grand. Get over it.

You don't even support Sparta.

OH and PA people are just telling you to pay for the damn thing yourself. Quit begging us to pay for it. Get used to being part of the group that almost destroyed the sport.

The sport has little to do with the ATA in Illinois. I can go to 100 clubs in a short morning drive.

 

WPT all you do is whine & complain about the WSRC & ATA. Makes one think you don't like them! hinerman you are the child that knows nothing! No one is begging OH & PA to pay any more. You are the ones destroying the sport! I will act like you and say I will never shot in Ohio again!! I can shoot all the club's I want around me to. And yes I will support the WSRC & the ATA! That's more than you do by badmouthing everything!!

 

T Shot,
You have NEVER heard me whine about the WSRC, ATA, Sparta or anything else for that matter ... If (when) I state facts about something people like you (you) feel and say that I do not like it or whine about it which is an assumption on your part telling people what I am thinking and probably not even close to being true ... I would say by the way you respond to things you are lacking in the mental development dept. (Mental Midget) being as you continue to say people said things that were never said just so you have something to say ... God gave you two eyes, two ears, and one mouth so you could see and hear twice as much as you say ... (Think about that a minute) ...
Mr Bill Martin said the"members", not the members with the exception of Ohio and Pa and Arizona should all pay in $20.00 to cover the cost (debt) that the HOF is liable for on a State of Illinois owned building ...I suggest you take time to read, re read, and then read it again slowly so you can understand what you are reading otherwise you are the one who sounds like you are going off on something you know nothing about ... By the way if each member kicked in $20.00 that would not cover the debt they are talking about ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

tshot, You sound like a child that has been chastised. Are you going to take your toys and go home. WPT is not from Ohio, not shooting in Ohio is not hurting anyone but you. The nicest gun club in the USA is at the cardinal center, why not shoot there? I have never heard the CC make a bad remark about you, or the WRSC have you? Grow up and put on you big boy panties, a little chastising helps a man mature. Roger C.

 

I'm the one that's childish! When most of the people whine about how bad the ATA WSRC & I'll is and how they will never shoot or spend money there! That's ok. But when i say I'm not shooting at the CC or Ohio that's a sin. I get some don't like the WSRC ATA HOF or I'll but it's been 12years! Get over it & shut the he'll up!

 

tshot what happened to the trolly post? Aren't you going to dispute H B facts?

I believe tshot is someone that I would like to buy for what he knows about trapshooting and be able to sell him for what he thinks that he knows about trapshooting. I believe that would be a money maker.

Dave Berlet

 

Dave HB is the only one that any hard facts. I only said what I saw at the WSRC. I didn't say he was wrong. But that's for another post.

 

Tshot, You are the one who should (not shut up) but try to be a little more civil in your description of Ohio & PA. shooters. Many shooters told the ATA not to relocate to Ill. Mr Fishburn stepped up and built a world class shooting facility, not just for Ohio & PA. shooters but all shooters regardless of their preference of venue. It was not meant to be in direct competition with Sparta, but for each to compliment the other to serve the shooting industry. The location of the facilities can not be compared. One has everything it needs to be a first class entity the other lacks the facilities to draw the crowds needed to sustain its self. All the whining and foul talk can not change things.
You keep backing your self in an indefensable corner. Then act nasty as a result. Have a nice day but keep on posting, We all learn from others ideas, be they good or bad. Roger C.

 

And not to mention Mr. Fishburn and Aden Kaufmann put on a presentation to the Trapshooting Hall of Fame BOT, before they decided to DONATE a building to the State of Illinois.

Mr. Fishburn offered to DEED OVER land to the THOF organization for their museum at CC, and assist with the construction of the building...The BOT of the THOF thanked him for his offer, but also flat out turned the generous offer down...

Trustee H. Lynn Parsons was the one of the Trustee who thought Mr. Fishburn's offer was a wonderful thing, but the others didn't see it that way.

That man Mr. Fishburn should be a Saint to the shotgun sports world for all he has offered and done.

He reminds me of Bill and Ruthie Hunter, and the Martins who for years supported shooting...

Mr. Fishburn may be relatively new to the sport compared to others, but one can see he supports it to the full extent.

Once again, Thank You Mr. Fishburn for your support !!!

 

I'm glad someone built a place to shoot in Ohio.more places are good. But the Grand & the ATA is in Sparta. And that's where the HOF needs to be! The ATA moved 12 years ago. The WSRC was built for all shooters just like the CC. The WSRC is a world class place lacking nothing. you shoot & like wherever you want. But respect the WSRC & the people that go there. Just you like you want for Ohio & Pa. I will always support the ATA HOF & WSRC & shoot there as much as I can. You all should do the same!

 

You have failed to tell those in OH and PA why they should travel 12 hours each way and travel 2 hours a day to a motel, when they have 5 shoots at 2 far better venues in their back yard. And they have motels within a few minutes.

That also combined with the fact that I know you live close to the WSRC and don't even support the shoot in the sanctuary city. Your childish talk is gibberish. But go ahead and explain.

 

I understand your view T Shot. I know many folks and friends who feel the same way.

However, I've always been of the opinion that the success and wellbeing of the THOF is best served in a location where it will be visited by the most people. In a location where donors were encouraged to gift their artifacts because more people would see them. In a location that would provide financial security.

While I too wanted the THOF to be with the Grand American, the above reasons made me realize that the relocation to Sparta was no in the best interests of the THOF because it lacked every important component for its success.

Additionally, I believe the Trapshooting Hall of Fame, Inc. should have purchased their own property and been the owners of the building for which they house their museum and library. And while I'm on a venting spree I might also state that I believe it was wrong and even deceitful to ask for donations to construct a museum and fail to inform donors that the building would be gifted to and owned by the State of Illinois, not the THOF.

Now, if I'm a "basher," a "hater," or both, for expressing my honest opinion and caring so deeply for the future of the THOF, so be it.

HB

 

Oh Mister History Buff....You took the pen right from my hand...

Yes indeed, more visitors would go through the THOF museum IF it were in CC than will probably go through it in 5 years where it is.

is it true that visitors can only get into the THOF museum during the GRAND weeks ??? I could see possibly why, because who would ever drive way out in no man's land to visit the place without another reason to be there....Cannot be a whole lot of visitors throughout the year then.

CC has shooting going on a lot during the summer, not to mention the camp grounds where people could have walked over to the museum for something to do while camping there. I also had sent my pennies to the THOF before they went out and donated that building to Illinois State, but today any donations I can make go to the OHIO Hall of fame museum because it, in my opinion, does the most good and provides the most exposure of our history.

Yes, the THOF museum is now in place, but I just cannot support it when we don't own it.

That Betty Peterson lady is always appreciable to whatever donations I can send her way for Ohio...So far it has only been items such as OLD targets and some historical items, but she is always thanking me just the same for whatever I can provide.

Again, thank you Mr. Fishburn for that wonderful museum for Ohio.

 

HB you are one of a few on here I respect & understand your opinion. Thank you for understanding mine. But I will continue to support the ATA & WSRC. I hope the CC does well but I want the Grand & HOF to stay where it is.Hinerman your just srupid! I love 420 miles north of the WSRC and shoot there every year! Why should I drive to the CC when I can shoot near. Me or the WSRC that I like & is a better place! By the way why was ok for me to drive all the way to vandalia for years. Your the child!

 

Did someone say gibberish? Translator please.

 

T Shot,

Thank you for understanding my position. And, thank you for making one of my points regarding traveling distance. That is just one of several factors that has caused the GAH tournament and the THOF to not realize their full potential in my opinion.

HB

 

Hinerman your just stupid! Yes I live 420 miles away. And why do I want to drive to the CC? There lots of places near me as good as the CC or I can go to the WSRC if I want a bigger shoot. And I do go to the WSRC & shoot! Do you get it?

 

How about naming a few of those places.

 

Tshot, You are kicking a dead horse. The move to Sparta was not in the best interests of the shooters. The EC and BOD bought into the (build it and they will come) agenda. They were wrong. The WRSC days are numbered, most of the shooters that go there are elderly,or they are making a living from the site. As the crowd diminish so will the sales to the vendors. If the ATA officials do not get together a viable business plan to reverse the trend, the place is doomed to failure. The only people that really have any conveniences at the Sparta location are the RV'ers. They are self contained and have social contact with other campers, the non campers are left in limbo after the shoot is over for the day.
I have supported the Grand for 39 years, but I do not like the area around Sparta, to remote and not user friendly. Sad but true. Just my opinion, not bashing just my personal opinions. WhA

 

I think it's in the right place. And it has everything we need. Yes I have a camper but there is a lot to do in and around Sparta not just camping. I have been to the Grand for 25 years! Not as long as you but I'll get there. And want it to be in Sparta! That's my opinion.

 

Again.....where are all those places?

 

Tshot, Name those places around Sparta that make it the right place. Myself and my friends rent probably one of the nicest place within 50 or more miles of the shooting grounds. It has 13000 acres of nothing but wildlife on it. 3500 of it is in lakes, three that I can fish without a state licence. Only about 8 people can stay there. There are some very nice bed and breakfast lodges also I have stayed in one that was top shelf, but it was about 45 miles from the grounds.
420 miles north of Sparta, that would be in Canada would it not? Stick to your idea of nice, you my be the one that must turn the lights out when it is all over with the site. Roger C.

 

T Shot, you didn't have to drive to Vandalia. You simply could have flown there. Yes, there was an airport directly across from the traps-another wonderful amenity and one not very near Sparta. I know, I flew there plenty to avoid a 9 hr. drive.

 

Sorry I DONT fly! So no big deal.

 

Roger that place sounds great! When you don't go maybe I will take it. 420mi is nowhere near Canada! Get a map out.

 

Tshot, Why would you want to go there when you have a camper. You would probably have to sell the camper to pay for the 10 days at this place. Roger C.

 

Roger your right to stay where you do I'd have to sell the RV & my guns! You got the big bucks! Lol

 

Still waiting to hear where those places are.

 

Hinerman almost anyplace near me is just as good. The CC is not the only venue to shoot at! That's all your getting from me.

 

Me too!

 

I think Tshot is doing the right thing by shutting up, he's just a wee bit late in getting around to it. Brad

 

Glad you miss me Brad. Just getting to far off track! Not saying the CC is bad just saying I can shoot at good places closer to me.

 

How much in debt is the HOF?

 

My guess is that they have now collected donations and or pledges to cover the amount needed to construct the museum. I have no personal knowledge of their current finances and it is only my speculation that they are now debt-free. I could be wrong.

The only folks who can answer the question are the THOF Trustees.

It would certainly be nice if the THOF provided updates. It would truly be nice if they went back to publishing their meeting minutes in Trap & Field as was done in the earlier days.

Ground breaking and construction started in 2014.

Here's the last update from September 15, 2015 when they still needed about $380,000.

​

No mention of the three (3) loans totaling $999,500 they secured as an advance on accounts receivable building pledges. Two were bank notes at 4.25% and the third from a private citizen and no mention of any interest rate on this private loan.

By the numbers:

$ 2,124,900
– 1,000,000 Martin Donation
1,124,900
– 250,000 ATA Donation
874,900
– 494,900 Additional Donations from Undisclosed Sources
$ 380,000 Shortfall; Needed Pledges


At the time of the above report, the THOF still had loans totaling almost $750,000, due in January and February 2016.

HB

 

Love the above quote by Bradford -->>

Our architect was the original architect for the WSRC.....Randy was able to tie our building into the overall theme of the WSRC grounds.

The place has the design of a horse barn. LOL

 

Lynch you must not have ever been to the HOF. The building is NICE! Inside and out. Fits in fine with the WSRC and the area. And no it's not a barn.

 

T Shot - are you new to the forum?
This is Gibson's thoughts on the building. From another thread.

"When they were building the building, people were thinking, This is a big barn." - Gipson July 28, 2017 to the Herald Review.

http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...to-light-on-the-hof-building.1841/#post-19013

 

Need pictures.........





The top one is a smaller barn. Bottom is a bigger barn. Both fitting for Mr. Ed.


Another Hall of Fame building. Or horse barn?

 

Can someone show me where it cost 1.5 million for the BUILDING alone ?

Architect fee YIKES !

And Design builders fee...?

ha ha ha, I am still laughing at all of these fees, not to mention a survey fee..Hell, the STATE owns all the land, all they had to do was pound some stakes where they wanted the footer and go from there.

I cannot imagine a MORTON building costing that much

I guess I need to come up with the times...

 

The reason for all the fee entries is, they did not think the members would like to see them listed as KICK BACKS. those words do not look good on a balance sheet. These people have no honor left, and absolutely no trust. Roger C.

 

Lynch there is more to Gipsons statement than was posted. And the shape may look like some other buildings but it's no barn! If it was the same building in the hills of Pa. or Ohio or better yet at the CC it would be the most beautiful building on the world! Roger you must never built anything. There are fees and permits and zoneing regs. everywhere! And lots of cost!

 

tshot, You will not live long enough to duplicate what I have built in my life time. That is nothing more than a prefab building with a few extras added on. It is called a stable in the industry. You are really sounding like a lemming for the ATA. With their record pertaining to real estate deals anything they do will be carefully looked at. Over priced items seem to be the norm with them. The worst thing is the hiding and cover ups that are done.
This building was erected on state owned property, and in the state of Ill. and you want to talk about fees and permits. Even knowing that it would be a state owned building. Surely you are joking, ARE YOU NOT?
YOU DO NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO UNDERSTANDING THIS PROBLEM WITH THE EC. Roger C.

 

Just because it looks like a barn don't make it a barn. And just because it is a pole building don't make it a pole building.

And if the barn were in PA it would be called a barn in PA.

The CC has a HOF building. It doesn't look like a barn.

 

You don't know what a pole building is. The HOF is not a pole building! But there are many nice pole buildings that are much better than most other types of construction. Call it what you want but it's way better than any other HOF around. Roger state buildings have zoneing & fees to.

 

How can someone that claims to be a member of the ATA and cares about the sport not know his HOF building is indeed a pole building. You must be a child or a blooming idiot. Look up Morton pole building.

There were pictures of it on the net as it was being built.

The HOF building for the NFL cost about 600k and looks like this.


It is not a pole building.



The above is a pole building. HOF building in Sparta.



The building the ATA left. Not a pole building.

 

http://www.americantrapshooter.com/index.php?threads/thof-construction-information.1821/#post-18851

Ref for building the pole building for the forum idiot. Not saying who that is.

 

They could name it the Taj mahal (sp) , put a big gold dome over it and it would still be and look like a barn with a big gold dome over it ... "Call it what you want but its way better than other HOF around ", that's only because there is no other HOF building around, closest one to it would be at Cardinal Center in Ohio or Pop Eyes museum in St Louis ... That by the way looks like a HOF building and it actually is a HOF building, not a horse barn or Pole building and is located where people can go to and enjoy it without going out of their way ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Remember when Mr. Bradford shook up thee BOD of the hall of Fame with this design that nobody had heard about before they read it in the paper...

This one had class, and was much cheaper to build according to reports.

HB, can you help me out on what the $$$ was going to be to construct this ?

 

The figures I recall hearing for the above conceptual design was that the building was over 13,000 sq.ft.

Construction estimates placed the cost at $1.9 million using a construction manager and $1.7 million using design-build method at $278/sq.ft and $221/sq.ft. respectively.

The projected final cost, ready to move in, was over $2.5 million.

Three on-site locations were being considered. Two across the roadway, south of the Events Center and one at parking lot near the target building since it was already equipped with utilities.

The current location was the best of those under consideration in my view.

HB

 

It takes a special kind of goofy to donate money to the gun hate state for a gun related HOF building that the state would own.

Especially after money and land was offered them elsewhere.

 

Thanks HB, I just could not remember the figures but thought it was around the same as the Gipson (referred to) barn.

And Union Strong, concur with you 100%

 

That is one fine looking stable! Owning horses, as I do, I like it when things look like a stable. How delightful. I am sure it doesn't look like a stable on the inside.

 

tomk, The inside is pretty generic. Nothing to rave about. Roger C.

 

Roger I don't believe that you have been in it. It is very nice inside & things are displayed well! All exhibits are well done & easy to view. But you don't like anything about Sparta.

 

T Shot (Know all, see all ) .
He can tell you what you like if by chance you are not sure, what you are thinking, if by chance you are not sure ... He once told me how I hated the ATA and Sparta, Hell I didn't even know that but he got me thinking though not for long ... T Shot is would best for you to read the posts over and over until you fully understand what any particular person is saying before you comment on it ... You say things just to have things to say and not much of it makes any damn sense nor is there a high percentage on the validity of most things you say, that other people said ... Heck he is telling Roger there isn't anything he likes about Sparta and Roger has been there more than T Shot ... I know Roger and consider him a personal friend, I can guarantee you if he didn't like Sparta he would of never went back ... T Shot, I'm not so sure about ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

tshot, I have been to every grand held at Sparta. I have been in the barn on most every trip. I have stated that the grounds at Sparta are very nice. I have also stated that Sparta has nothing to offer but a shooting facility. The members voted down the location and the EC went there anyway, bad move. The HOF building was a gift to the state of Ill. from giddy up go. the donors were never told that the building would be owned by the state. The price of the building was inflated. Why, you be the judge. Check and see what the interior cost were for the display area.
tshot, my problem is not with Sparta, it is with how the move was handled. It is also with the services that are around the Sparta area. Other than shooting there is very little to do for recreation for families. It is just not the type of place to put a 50 million dollar facility. Very poor or no planning went into the selection of the site before the move was made. It is just one of the many decisions made by the EC that has led to the demise of our sport. Roger C.

 

I have been to every Grand at Sparta and a lot of the other shoots there! We find lots of things to do other than shoot. We even take a day off to do things! I know you have been there I have shot with you it was one of the worst squad I have ever shot with. I don't understand why if you don't have a good time there why you go? Let us who like the WSRC have a good time there.

 

T Shot,
The way you express yourself about things is childish at best, no body ever said you should not go to the WSRC and enjoy yourself, that does not mean others will and or would ... You had better enjoy it while you can because the State of Illinois is in dire straights from a financial stand point, when push comes to shove do not be surprised if one day (POOF) and its gone ... The WSRC costs the State money and has every years it has been in existence, the ATA on the other hand generate an income and has every year, while the States continues to add to the deficit ... Those who like the WSRC should go and enjoy it, pay attention to the attendance as it continues to drop off ...
NO ONE HAS EVER TOLD YOU NOT TO GO AND ENJOY YOURSELF, that does not mean you will see a lot of others that will not be there .... I rest assure you sent in your $20 for the HOF, to pay your part ... ? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

tshot, Are you saying that you shot with me at the grand in Sparta? What year and what event? I'm just curious, to see if I remember you. Roger C.

 

Yes I did. About 5 or 6 years ago it was handicap. I think bank 12 to 16 or about there.

 

You must have a remarkable memory. Do you remember if I was shooting a my Zoli or BT-99? Why do I not remember You? Roger C.

 

I only remember because all you and a past presidents wife did was rant & complain about the other shooters & markers. You made 2 of them cry.

 

tshot, I must have been having a bad day, I usually make the whole squad and the scorer cry. Saying you knew me makes one wonder about your other posts. How many of them were fabrications also. You must be believable to be a good troll, and you just failed the test. Roger C.

 

If you are shooting games (Annies/ protections ) do not (DO NOT) let Roger stand to your right, he never misses if you do ... I can attest to that ... Thorn in my side on many a Friday night ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You were! I'm NOT a troll & i don't make anything up! I don't know you just shot that one time. Hope we meet again & better times. None of my posts are made up.

 

I don't know Roger, maybe T Shot is on to something. Sounds like you may have made WPT whimper a time or two!!

 

"markers" instead of "pullers" or "scorekeepers". Must be a local thing and should narrow it down a bit as to TShot's location or maybe he's really a skeeter.

 

tshot is full of it. He never shot with me at the grand or anywhere else. I ask him what gun I was shooting, and he did not answer. I shoot all of my targets in front of the vendor buildings. That way I can grab my gun and walk to my field. I will ask him one more question, were we shooting singles, doubles, or handicap?
I really enjoyed hearing the big guy whine when we shot annies. We had another shooter that was hard on bill also, she was a chopper pilot in Nam. Remember her Bill? Roger C.
TSHOT, who was the president's wife we supposedly shot with, I'm sure I would remember her.

 

As I posted it was handicap somewhere around bank 12 to 16 and it was Jean Greb and I don't know what gin you shot. Best I can remember. Maybe we will meet up again and talk about it.

 

Those poor "markers" must have been really bad since all they have to do is keep score. If they couldn't mark a slash, 0, or call targets they shouldn't have been allowed on the scoring chair. Since I know Jean Greb quite well maybe she'll refresh our memory next time I see her. I've never known her to abuse "markers".

 

Oliellieddawg, This has nothing to do with reality. Tshot is trying to make people think that he shot with me 5 or 6 years ago and I disrupted the squad, at the grand in Spatra. He is saying Jean Greb was on the squad also,and it upset her also. This guy is either an outright liar or he is delusional. OR BOTH.
tshot I do not want to meet you or have a talk with you. I think you are a nut case. Roger C.

 

What u posted is true. Like it or not that's what happend.

 

OK Tshot describe me. Height weight hair color any prominent feature. Any prominent scars that are very visable. Roger C.

 

I don't remember. I didn't who you were at the time. I went to check scores & see who you were on score sheets. All I know & I stand by my posts. Sorry you don't remember and don't want to meet. Maybe we will meet next year at the WSRC. I'm done with this.

 

Hillary stands by her statements also. That does not mean they are true. you have a good memory until you are ask a question that could prove you are a fraud. You do not impress me as someone I would want to associate with. I have no desire to meet you. Roger C.

 

QUOTE="T Shot, post: 38088, member: 2245"]I didn't who you were at the time.[/QUOTE]
Come on T Shot!

When you looked at Roger, were you looking up or down when you looked at his eyes? Did you think Roger was obese or maybe someone with a bad case of worms? Skinny or fat? Tall or tiny? Your posts may soon put you the American Trapshooter Hall of Shame or a new comic wing.

 

Does anyone know of any one who has actually donated the called for $20.00 or has it only been Mr Martin and friends ...? Be interesting to know .... WPT ... (YAC) ...