Why Isn't There Handicap Class At The Zone Shoots?

I was surprised on Sunday afternoon while standing in line for my hat that there wasn't a position on the zone team for any of the handicap winners. The Zone Captain explained that the Zone Team was made up of singles and doubles champions and runner -up in those positions. I figures we would have yardage champions for the different groups for all the Zone Teams. I felt sort of bummed out. So I took my knife, thanked them, and considered myself lucky and proud of Wright Pat and headed back to the ranch.

 

Never heard of a handicap class. please explain. Roger C.

 

I think he means a zone team. Zone placers compete against other zones in Ohio at the State Shoot.

 

Roger C.,
Handicap yardage groups. And yes, here in Ohio we split the region up into four zones. The shooters in that zone compete against each other for a spot to represent your region at the Ohio State Tournament. The winner of the zone shoot is determined by the combined totals of the zone team. Each member of that zone team will get $100. My post was talking about the fact that they only use singles and doubles scores to determine who qualifies for each zone. On Sunday I won the Zone handicap event with a 96 from the 21.5 yd. I received a beautiful Case knife and some money for the purse, but it didn't get me a spot on the zone team. I had a great time, and a lot of my friends from Wright Pat made it. I guess it's kind of cool when you show at a shoot with your zone hat. Anyways, hope that explains the post. I know it doesn't explain the reasoning behind the question about the handicap issue.
Brian Seibert

 

You don't shoot one shoot and get placed on any team that I know of ... You have to amass wins at several shoots, team placement come from winning event's not yardage groups ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

At an Ohio Zone shoot, the winner and shooter coming in second place represents that zone's single and doubles class shooter for that year. In 2014 and in 2016, I was the singles alternate for the southwest zone in B class. This year I have moved up to A class. It took a 196 to make the team in singles and a 98 in doubles. I shot a 191 in singles and a @#$#@ in doubles. Maybe next year. The yardage group break downs at Middletown are 18-19 / 20-21.5 / 22-23.5 / 24-25 / 26-27.

 

Brian, I was an Ohio shooter for 14 yrs. Moved to AZ. in 1988. The only team then was for the 16's. It was shot in the spring. The handicap and doubles were shot in the fall. Each zone had a 16 yard team. This was shot off at the state shoot. You do not make the State team by winning one event. That is based on your performance for the whole year. ROGER C.

 

Roger,
The Zone team and the Ohio State team are two different teams. I don't know about fourteen years ago, I was shooting then. The Zone team represents the Northeast, Northwest, Southeast, Southwest shooters. You MUST live in the listed County to shoot in the Zone Events. The Ohio State Team is pick from the winners of the shoots here in the State. It doesn't matter where you live to make that team. You just have to win the bigger shoots to get name to that team. I get that. As I previous posted, I've made the Zone team (2014 / 2016) two of the last three years at Middletown. That's where the Zone shoot is held every year.

 

The ATA hands out trophy's (trinkets) for showing up, obviously in Ohio you have to shoot for placement on teams ... This has always been the Standard from what I can recall back to 1975 and it always seemed to work ... To make all of the losers happy the State can expand the State Teams and make everyone a team member in numerical order ... Be like a trinket but everyone could make the team and have bragging rights, just don't mention what number you are on the list ... "Don't worry, Be happy " ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT,
Go back and read the previous post that I replied to Roger. THIS IS NOT THE OHIO STATE TEAM>>>>>> . Do you understand the word "zone". There's no trophy's handed out. The team is made up of people that shot in the events and WON. I believe if memory serves me correctly, there were almost 40 teams from just our zone alone (southwest). I don't know how long they have been doing the zone shoots. My first year for the ATA scores started just a couple years ago. But this doesn't have anything to do with trying to give everyone a spot on the Ohio State team. I think there are only 10 - 12 positions that are filled in each zone. Not to mention the fact that the singles champion from our zone and the alternate both broke 196+ targets (200 singles) to be selected. So I don't think there should be any wording like "trinkets" or "make everyone happy". Most people, including myself didn't make it. The only bragging right that I can talk about is the large amount of fellow shooters from Wright Pat that shot and made the team. Then I was able to go back on Sunday and win the handicap. No bragging. Just asking, why no handicap for each zone? I don't need no trinkets. GO WRIGHT PAT!
Brian Seibert

 

Brian,
I would bet that if you asked your State Delegate or Zone Rep. he could tell you and if not he should not be a Delegate or the Zone Representative ... Somebody has to know for sure the answer to that logical question ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Brian,
I certainly under stand the difference between zone team and state team. My answer was to the implication that there was a handicap class team in the state of Ohio. I knew the difference probably before you knew what a trap target was.
In years past the state of Ohio had 4 zones each posted a team in the 16 yard event at the state shoot. That was designated as the team from each zone. There was also a designated state team. This team is selected from the highest average in each catagory. not who wins a large shoot. As far as a team designated for handicap and doubles if it is not something new, there is no such team.

Brian, you should be sure of you info before trying to act as a reliable source for how Ohio selects their respective teams. Many of us have been in the game for over 40+ years and we do not profess to be perfect on all of the workings. I'm sure with all of your past experience you just may be. Roger C.

 

there is a zone team for doubles also. don't know when it started, but I know its been around for at least 15 years

 

Rick,
I Left Ohio in 1988, Never heard of the zone doubles teams. Have never seen mention in the state programs. Roger C.

 

Jeeeeeeeeeez, this place starting to sound a little like that other place that has the 4 stooges.

The guy, Brian, asked a question and he gets jumped.

Brian, I'm not from Ohio. In PA in the late 70's they used to announce the "Zone Team Champions" at the state shoot. I'm sure someone with a better memory than mine will come on and correct me but I think this is how it worked.

We had an East Zone and a West Zone. ONLY two Zones. I was western.
The shooters, don't remember how many, that shot well at their respective zones, ONLY the 16's, were put on a list. Doubles had nothing to do with making your Zone Team. Now as I said I don't know how they determined the list, each class winner and runner up? Top 8 scores?

THEN, at the state shoot both zones shooters shot the 200 16's. They added up the scores and if your Zone Team broke more targets than the other Zone Team they gave you a little pin that had "Zone Team Champion" on it. If you want to know exactly what was engraved on it I can probably go dig mine up.
Again, it was only based on the 16's and your 200 score from the State Shoot.

The STATE TEAM is whole other ball of wax. I believe they take the averages of 16's, doubles, and caps into consideration.

From your question I assume you were asking why there isn't a Zone Team for caps. Might not be a bad idea.

 

Maybe now but "back in the day" as everyone is so fond of saying, it was your total on the 200 16's at your Zone shoot.

 

The winners in each class at the respective zones, shoot as a team in the championship 16 yard event at the state shoot. if any class champion could not attend then the runner up in the class stepped up to the team. All score were added up and the highest total was the champion zone. Each member on that team was awarded added money by the state organization.
This event had nothing to do with making the state team other than adding to each individuals combine average for recognition on the state team. I hope this is accurate and is explained fully. Roger C.
P.S. can anyone tell me how the doubles team works, as I have no knowledge of it? Thanks.

 

I'm sorry, but back in the day the zone shoot was only a 100 target 16yd event. I'm talking back in the 1960's and probably into the early 70's and then they added a fall handicap and doubles sponsored by the OSTA, but I don't recall that the doubles or handicap programs had anything decided at the state shoot. I don't recall just when the zone singles went to a 200 target program. In approximately the middle to late 60's the NW zone would have nearly 70 squads and the SW zone would have over 100 squads for the 100 target 16yd zone shoot. Then in their infinite wisdom they got greedy and made it a 200 target program and look at it now.

Dave Berlet

 

Back in my day Dave, I'm only 65, and I lived in PA not OH.

 

When I started attending the NW Zone shoots in 1993 they were already a 200 target singles event one day and Hcp and doubles events the next day. David, please explain your comment about the infinite wisdom and greed of going to a 200 bird program? I can only assume you are referring to the OSTA and that's what is confusing me. The only money the OSTA receives from the zone shoots is shooter daily fees just like at every other registered event in Ohio. The OSTA pays out more money for the zone shoots in program and trophy expense then they take in. 100 or 200 birds makes zero difference to the OSTA. The NW Zone shoots were still very large shoots until the late 90's early 2000's.

 

Flyer I promise that I won't hold your youth against you. I don't know when the Ohio zone shoots were started, but when I first shot registered targets in 1957 the zone shoot was a shoot that all the ordinary shooters definitely looked forward to every year. Over the years it has really lost it's drawing power. It is sad, but there are many other things in our sport to be sad about. I still love to shoot, but like they say the old gray mare ain't what she yoused to be.

Dave Berlet

 

If I remember at that time at least one of the two directors from each zone was a gun club person and I believe that they thought they could throw more targets by forcing the shooters to shoot 200 instead of 100. Personally I like to shoot 200 target 16yd programs, but I believe that they lost some shooters who would only shoot 1 or a couple of hundred registered targets per year an they lost some families that had multiple shooters who felt the extra targets made the day too expensive. I really wasn't blaming the OSTA as we know it today,but I really feel that it really hurt the zone shoot. Just my opinion. Also the ATA leaving Vandalia and the turmoil leading up to that point was not good to the zone shoot and registered shooting in Ohio.

Dave Berlet

 

roger the doubles work just like the singles they go by class and category.

 

I wish someone would answer my question. Why don't we have handicap zone scores qualified as part of the team? It has nothing to do with "trinkets" or "combine averages". It has to do with the WINNING SINGLES score FOR THAT DAY. And.... the WINNING SCORE in DOUBLE for THAT DAY. I haven't around for as long as many members on this website, but I've made the team twice in singles. Now...., why isn't there a Handicap Champion and Runner-up for the Zones teams?

 

I started shooting in 1974, the zone shoot then was 100 singles targets. Each zone picked 2 each AA through D class shooters, this was before the divide up into small sub groups by age and sex strategy that is the current ATA all american points mode that is today's reality. Sometime the zones added handicap and doubles events, but the history of the ZONE team shoot was always singles.

I would imagine that the Ohio zones was somewhat a manifestation of the Grands Champion of Champions event that was only open to STATE Shoot single champs or maybe from the state and zone team events shot at the grand that were also just singles events and picked by shooting at a Central Zone, Western Zone ect or your own state shoot.

I think History is the main reason to answer your question, although today the Ohio Zone shoots are basically meaningless and should be eliminated or moved to one central location. Several years while I was on the board some zones didn't even have all there slots filled.

I hope this helps some Brian, I know the HistoryBuff could fill in the spots about TEAM shooting in the past, it used to be a big deal. Brad

 

Thanks Brad. Like I said previously, I'm new to trap shooting ( recorded my first scores in 2011), but it seemed weird that the Zone teams were only singles and doubles and not all three disciplines. I like the fact of being able to shoot for your zone at the Ohio State Tournament. I can't afford to register 2500 single, 1000 handicap and 500 doubles a year. So this way a person can go and compete for the Zone against people in his/her own class. I know they still shoot the Champions Of Champions event here in the State also. They have yardage champions in that category for handicap.

 

Brad,
The singles were shot in the spring. The handicap and doubles were shot in the fall. Have they change that or is it still done that way? If they now have a doubles team shot off at the state level, they must shoot the doubles in the spring also. They also moved the shoots around to different clubs in the zone to give the clubs business. Is this still how it works.
I used to like the calcuttas down at the Tri-State. It was nice while it lasted. Roger C.

 

Brian,

I think the answer is likely a combination of things, generally something like this only includes singles, simply because that is where the most shooters are. Yeah, they added doubles over the years, that's fine. Handicap does not really lend itself to this format since although you might be the mid-yardage champion at the Zone Shoot, when you compete for that team at a later date, you could be shooting from the 27 while the mid-yardage guy on another team might now ne short yardage. Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that it is more awkward and not seen much. Not a lot of interest either more than likely.

 

Brian,
Go to page 27 of your Ohio state shoot program. I appears that there is a champion of champion event at the state shoot. How you qualify for the handicap is a little vague. It appears there are handicap events at different club that if you are the champ you can represent that club in the event at the state level. I do not know how they would handle it if you gained or lost yardage. Roger C.

 

Thanks Roger. I did try and win the Champions of Champions at my home club at Wright Pat, but couldn't make the second day of the event because of family scheduled events. We had a great turn out and are being represented by some great shooters. Last year I won both the singles and handicap events. Thank you for the information about the Ohio events. Maybe next year.